HexGrid Posted Nov 22, 2015, 3:07 am	Has anyone else had marshals using their forum powers excessively to silence ANY negative point of view about the issues with DW and its supposed non-development state except when the chosen few ask for something? This post likely will not be around long, so get them in quickly, rofl.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 22, 2015, 4:24 am	I personally will not do that. I have had that happen on Steam and found that a deciding factor in never playing any game from those developers again. (Sniper Elite III being one example) But yes, when I was new I did have marshals use forum powers without cause (the most irksome was when one erased my fan fiction) because he though I was an Alt and that I was making fun of him or something. I never did figure it out.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 22, 2015, 4:37 am	Don't even get me started on DW being half built. Past forums (if you look back at posts starting 3 years ago) will show my feelings on that, as well as many current Vets feelings. Many features could be fleshed out. But those of us who were willing to put in the time to provide the framework on how it could work (to be then converted to code by Sam) were never given any hint that our work would ever see the light of day so we didn't bother putting in the time or effort. IF Sam suddenly decided he wanted to work on DW again in some meaningful way, Many of us would be more than happy to submit Pen and Paper style rules, flowcharts, formulas, and logical arguments as well as pseudo-code to help him find the way forward.
*Ninesticks* Posted Nov 22, 2015, 8:19 am	As I said when I locked your previous thread if you had an issue with it then message me. But you want to do it in the public fora, that's fine too, I felt it only reasonable to have the discussion in private if you wanted it. You were either accidentally/deliberately misinterpreting Sam's post. In essence you accused Sam of asking people to write false reviews. At no point did Sam ask that. Accusing Sam/slagging Sam off to just make a point about other changes is, in my considered opinion, likely to generate, let's say a negative reaction from the community. Now I could have let it descend into a flame, but I chose to stop it before that. I locked your thread and moved it to the appropriate forum and left a comment as to why. If you have an issue with changes/lack of changes talk about them in the appropriate forum. Abuse of marshal powers? I don't think so, but if you genuinely think I have then refer it to the other marshals. Or even ask around to see if I am 'Sam's lackey'. You are going to have to do far better than that if you are trying to get a bite out of me.
*Bastille* Posted Nov 22, 2015, 11:28 am	Who's this new guy?
*sam* Posted Nov 22, 2015, 12:17 pm	*StCrispin* said: Don't even get me started on DW being half built.  Past forums (if you look back at posts starting 3 years ago) will show my feelings on that, as well as many current Vets feelings. Many features could be fleshed out.  But those of us who were willing to put in the time to provide the framework on how it could work (to be then converted to code by Sam) were never given any hint that our work would ever see the light of day so we didn't bother putting in the time or effort. IF Sam suddenly decided he wanted to work on DW again in some meaningful way, Many of us would be more than happy to submit Pen and Paper style rules, flowcharts, formulas, and logical arguments as well as pseudo-code to help him find the way forward. I don't think it's fair to call it half built. It has every feature I envisaged in my initial designs, and many more in addition. There are some additional features which I toyed with but never got around to, but they were *additional*. BTW.. if you want to discuss the time needed to add new features, I'd estimate: "fleshing out ideas and providing the framework" at 0.5%, and "converting that to code" at 99.5%
*sam* Posted Nov 22, 2015, 12:22 pm	HexGrid said: Has anyone else had marshals using their forum powers excessively to silence ANY negative point of view about the issues with DW and its supposed non-development state except when the chosen few ask for something? This post likely will not be around long, so get them in quickly, rofl. Not sure what you're referring to specifically, but please feel free to let me know of any issues you have with Marshals.
NotSure Posted Nov 22, 2015, 2:47 pm	*sam* said: BTW.. if you want to discuss the time needed to add new features, I'd estimate: "fleshing out ideas and providing the framework" at 0.5%, and "converting that to code" at 99.5% Sam - those numbers is brilliant. I am currently running at 0.5% framework, 24.5% code, 75% beer and debugging. Back on topic - Dark-wind, based on the way I understand it, is NOT a democracy. It is a product. It has customers (us). We have absolute power to play DW as is or, do something else completely. SAM has absolute power to update, change, alter the product as he sees fit. Unlike a lot of publicly traded game developers (or 'Robber Baron' private developers),  SAM appears to genuinely interested in making the game enjoyable for all. He has established delegates who, may not be perfect, do help in my experience. My impression is they are volunteers and, unlike the major developers' moderators, don't go through extensive customer service training, vetting processes, and have to work under specific protocol. For those that want polished, perfect, and the appearance of democracy (often an illusion created by good PR), I am sure there is a game out there and as customers we have that choice. For me, I will take the good with the bad. The abrasiveness of the moderators over the slick, trained 'customer service agents' of the major developers who tell you, "your suggestion is very important to us. I have submitted it to the development team. they are working through the methods it can be incorporated....." BS Again - my 2 cents (which puts me up to 6 cents on this board).
HexGrid Posted Nov 22, 2015, 6:51 pm	DW is definitely not half built. Everyone will have something they would like to see and with current issues it is obviously still an awesome game. As for most marshals there is no issue, they do a decent to great job, well done SirCrisp, Snipe, bacon lolz you know who Some others seem to want to drive players away that either do not agree with them or their friends. Again another minor nuisance for myself lolz. You would have really had to work much harder to ruin my review of DW at anytime i've played it
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 22, 2015, 9:21 pm	*sam* said: I don't think it's fair to call it half built. It has every feature I envisaged in my initial designs, and many more in addition. There are some additional features which I toyed with but never got around to, but they were *additional*. I meant no offense, I did exaggerate. Perhaps some items may be on your "additional" list.  BUT when you try to do something and the game tells you "This has not been implemented yet" it seems like its intended as *core content* rather than as *additional* ---Like throwing items out of a car during a scout (Menu Option). ---Or using HP for something other than rep (It says "other options are coming soon!" but it has said that since I started). ---Or the Economy being Non-Dynamic (you have said in the past that the player base isn't large enough for this to work but I have suggested in the past an option that also provided even further depth to the background Economic and political simulation) ---Or the Auction house (which I read somewhere you said it would include items such as rare gear as well as player offered items)  (((plus it doesn't function like other auction systems such as eBay or like game versions like in WoW or PotBS or D3) ---Or the Reputation system which has no benefit other than Trucing, which keeps becoming a point of contention among jealous players and changed Etc... Not that I mean any of this in a bad way. *Sam* said: BTW.. if you want to discuss the time needed to add new features, I'd estimate: "fleshing out ideas and providing the framework" at 0.5%, and "converting that to code" at 99.5% You know I disagree but by this logic it means if you had chosen instead to make DW into a Pen and Paper game, you could have started from scratch (nothing, blank slate) and created an entire functional game equal to what DW is today in 5 -6 days. Or that DeathRacer (whatever happened to that?) which statements say had been fleshed ot over the period of a year, would take 199 years to code. Or that Translating English into Spanish (or some other language) takes 200 times longer than just writing it in English (not the best comparison but...) I know Code has gotten harder than it was in the 1980s and 1990s and I don't know much about modern code (1/2 the time Emily is speaking in terms I only recognize when converted to 1980's words for it) but I think 0.5% to 99.5% if even more exaggerated than me saying 90% of the game is 40% complete.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 22, 2015, 9:33 pm	The Core Issue we face here is that Sam is in a DW Catch 22 5 - DW isn't making enough money to Incentivize Sam into adding content or polishing the UI 10 - which is chasing away some new players before they learn to play. 15 - causing player population lower than it could be. 20 - Leading to a lack of money... 22 - Goto 5 -----Its been shown many times that piling content onto a broken game will keep producing sales (See Sims 3 for a prime example) While I am not a proponent of this practice, I can heartily say that the lack of new content or features is hurting us from a "draw" perspective Like Ped only bug hunting for food, or subterranean exploration, or even mini-games like a real time arena, or 24 hour long arena competitions with tick based turns, or sim city like Gang facility building, or Sims like ganger play/management, etc...
*Rev. V* Posted Nov 23, 2015, 3:00 am	"-----Its been shown many times that piling content onto a broken game will keep producing sales (See Sims 3 for a prime example)" I dunno....chainsaws being added to the game (and we ALL know that NEEDED to happen) didn't help much. And that was totally due to me.
*sam* Posted Nov 23, 2015, 8:56 am	Sorry Crisp, I don't agree. 1.. I spent many years adding new features/content, most of which had no discernible impact on player growth/retention 2.. In any case, I don't agree that DW is a 'broken' game. 3.. There's not much point arguing with you about software development effort.. you admit knowing very little yet keep insisting I'm wrong anyway. I have spent lots of time (far more than you) trying to understand and improve on new player retention. DW:Tactical? "yes!" everyone shouts, "that will make a huge impact, great idea, people just want to play a fun core game without risking their assets! Didn't work? ah well, nothing lost..." (apart from 500 hours of Sam's time). DW:Scav? "yes!" everyone shouts, "that will make a huge impact, great idea, people just want to play a tough gritty post-apocalyptic game. Didn't work? ah well, nothing lost..." (apart from 200 hours of Sam's time). Ped hunting and subterranean exploration? "yes!" everyone shouts, "that will make a huge impact, great idea, people just want to play a turn-based game with more and more content. After all it's mostly a lack of content that's driving new players away!" ... er... see any trend here? The only thing that ever had a noticeable impact was adding the arena tutorial. I'm not saying adding new features has no effect at all, I'm just saying it's completely un-economic of me to sink 100s of hours into it. The only sensible way forward would be to start afresh and make DW2.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 23, 2015, 10:57 pm	DW Tactical...  It seemd like a useless item to me and ive never used it.  I feel bad you spent 500 hours on that. Scav...  I love it but its imbalanced.  Plus its a huge obligation and time sink to hunt (wait we don't have hunting...) I mean Scout for food/water Insisting you are wrong:  No, I never said WRONG, Just said I disagree.  Just as you disagree with me many times on subjects I am fluent in.  Disagreement is good.  If you are surrounded by Yes Men you believe your own stories.  When you do that you stop questioning yourself and as anyone in business knows that once you do that your destined to fail.  Its one of the Axioms of business anyway...  Not sure it applies to game design or coding.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 23, 2015, 11:15 pm	As for the last sentence, Starting fresh with DW2. I agree. But then you are back where you were last year. No Guarantee it would attract anyone other than those of us already playing DW 1. I don't mean to be negative, I do love this game. But I do feel (and ive said it before) that it seems like a component of a much larger game. and then there is the fact DW suffers from the fact it is what it is... tactical turn based cars. Which in many people's minds seems illogical.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 23, 2015, 11:16 pm	Plus we are off topic. So....