Not everyone loves you
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*sam* Posted Oct 29, 2015, 11:06 am |
I'm just dealing with the exploit whereby you can buy favour with all factions so that they all love you, meaning you can truce your way through all encounters.
My previous suggestion (not implemented) wasn't a good one. The root problem is that it's possible for all factions to love you, so that's what I'm now changing. |
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*Bigspenner* Posted Oct 29, 2015, 11:24 am |
Smashing, it does seem an odd thing to happen. | ||||||||
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Tallus Posted Oct 29, 2015, 1:47 pm |
Until you look at how ISIS sells its oil in Syria/Iraq. That said, there is also the issue that there are not enough combat-active Mercs and Civilians, so the best bet is to be friends with the bad guys, and figure at least the Civvie encounters are at gates, so you can take all the cars. |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Oct 29, 2015, 2:42 pm |
If a town has a bounty on someone, they should see bounty hunters. not just town militia blocking their return. I've always felt this needed fixed, Bounty Hunters should do their jobs. | ||||||||
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Racing Robbie Posted Oct 29, 2015, 3:01 pm |
Agreed - Bounty Hunters should work a bit like slavers, tough encounters but only when you have a bounty on your head
Sam - will this change work so that if you are a member of one faction there will always be factions that dislike because of your membership? And how will it work if you are a Renegade? Thanks |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 29, 2015, 4:48 pm |
but they dont sell ther oil to the hare krishnas, americans, kurds or me. was that supposed to illustrate some point? 
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*The X Man* Posted Oct 29, 2015, 4:48 pm |
Good point, this should be looked into further. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 29, 2015, 4:49 pm |
and they should be open for PVP in that town. |
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*The X Man* Posted Oct 29, 2015, 4:55 pm |
All of your "in-game" actions will affect your faction reps regardless of your alignment. You continue to attack traders, Civs and Merchants will start to hate you while muties will start to like you. Change and reverse your targeted attacks, the reps will flow back like a teeter totter. |
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*sam* Posted Oct 29, 2015, 5:11 pm |
This change is not specifically related to faction membership at all, it's only related to faction reputations. |
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Tallus Posted Oct 29, 2015, 5:58 pm |
Do these changes nerf Mind Control as well?
Well, Syria and Northern Iraq are getting about as close as you can manage to a Darkwind world. But commerce still begets strange bedfellows. Actually, sounds like they do sell it to some Kurds, and their rival militias: the trick is that they figure anything downstream that they own will get bombed by precision munitions, but the pumps and wells are bad targets. Therefore they basically maintain a neutral zone around the area where they sell their crude, and they sell to all comers, whether they like them or not. http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/6c269c4e-5ace-11e4-b449-00144feab7de.html#axzz3pytQDJt5 And, in turn, the Israelis are buying most of their oil from Northern Iraq's Kurds to ensure they get hard currency.... Interesting question how much of that oil came originally from ISIS controlled fields.
But we're talking about a 9-sided teeter totter... Part of the point to rep balancing was that you could slowly increase rep by 'tweeking' things around the circle -- the issue being that, if you were willing to spend the time, you could reliably increase rep across the board with a fairly simple distribution of attacks. (and you could buy back the Civs and Merchants favor by delivering the goods.) I have to say, given the ISIS example above, I have a hard time understanding why people are so exercised about this kind of rep balancing -- it seems 'realistic' and not at all unheard of historically.. But who am I to appeal to reality? |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 29, 2015, 9:46 pm |
And yet.. Even if all that rubbish were true they ARE ALL STILL SHOOTING
One another... Which was always the point.... That relationships of convenience do not equate to mythical pirate codes, friendships or honour among thieves. In the DW world that neutral space is Texan.. Step outside and you will be fair game. But it is also nonsense and media babble... Equating selling to middle men who then sell on to those places with selling to them directly. |
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*The X Man* Posted Oct 29, 2015, 10:48 pm |
Tallus, If someone put a hit on your Gang Leader and killed him, you would be at a point of seeking revenging and annihilating their gang. If that same gang hauled a few packages to another town for you or ambushed a different gang, who you do not like, and raided their shipment.... that is supposed to make you start liking them??? A Big No. You are still gonna want to shoot their gang leader in the head the next time your gangs paths cross. You need to be held accountable for your in-game actions. If you red out a gang, expect retaliation. If you want safe travel, you should never fire a weapon at anyone so the NPCs know you are not a threat and maybe they let you go by without incident. Good luck on that lasting for more than one travel. Remember, DW is not Candyland where all the gumdrops like all the sweet tarts and hang out over at the gingerbread man's house. Eventually someone is not going to like you because you helped the jellybeans and you're gonna get poked in the eye with a couple pixie stix. |
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Tallus Posted Oct 30, 2015, 12:01 am |
Per Machiavelli, it's ok to be hated, as long as you're feared.
Which actually gets to one of my issues with the game -- at some point bloody encounters should breed discretion rather than a vengeful death-wish. And, of course, relatedly, successful pirates (e.g. Blackbeard) tended to be good businessmen and fairly casualty averse. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 12:31 am |
And for every one of those there should be a rampaging bunch of suicide bombers who really don't care. or a bunch of revolutionaries who will throw themselves at your tanks bare handed... Whether bloody retribution breeds further attacks or caution depends on the motivations of the enemy... Their ideology and beliefs... What they have to lose etc You seem to be picking random one off examples to support a rather unclear point without looking at the breadth of human society and conflict. Oh... And Teach fought to his death in his final battle and showed fairly scant regard for his crew... When cornered he announced he would give no quarte and expected none and then fired a broadside into the two navy sloops that had cornered him.... He marooned several of his crew... Stripped his comrades ships... Attacked well armed merchantmen in his sloops... Continued his piracy after being pardoned. Not very casualty averse. |
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*Bigspenner* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 1:26 am |
This is the mosy idioitic simlificatiin I have ever seen what a load of tripe. even if it had real world validity in that that Iisis has in someway made peace with every faction imaginable which is boollll shooock, that is irellevent to the game world we are discussing and that sam is trying to create. Basically complete boo lokks by someone who has no real job or life is my guess. and infutiture talk aboutbthe game world not yor stupid half baked biews of what a terrorist organisation do without any real idea how u=it really works you halfwit. |
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RotaryJunkie Posted Oct 30, 2015, 1:48 am |
Very... Interesting results from this. Woke up exceedingly late (8:45pm EST or so), heard about it, checked reps, showed Hated by Civs, scorned by raiders/reds, still high on mutant/slaver reps, think was around disliked with merchants. 5-10 minutes later without any in game action whatsoever, I went up to neutral with merchants, disliked by Civs, mutant/slaver rep dropped, reds/raider rep improved.
So I have literally no idea how it's going to shake out now. |
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Tallus Posted Oct 30, 2015, 2:20 am |
<3. Delighted. The point is not that ISIS is well liked -- hardly - but rather that its enemies seem to be in a position where the have to buy its oil, whether they like it or not. The more pertinent point to this discussion may be that the liked/hated probably shouldn't be the main variable determining whether there is a truce. |
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*Boonwolf* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 6:13 am |
Name calling how official sounding i ask you as an equal retract your personal attacks on fellow players Mr *Spenner* thank you and have a good day *Boon* |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 8:02 am |
But... As already pointed out.. Even if this were true (which it isn't) all those people still shoot isis at the first opportunity. So they hardly have good faction relations... And in the context of the whole point of this discussion they would, given the opportunity, kill them and steal from them rather than pay them and all have a nice cup of tea. Halfwit sounds a little generous. |
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*sam* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 10:59 am |
How many of the 11 factions liked you before this? |
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*Tango* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 11:22 am |
I'm seeing a lot of regression to the mean here, which is normal. All your factions drift slightly back towards neutral every week. |
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RotaryJunkie Posted Oct 30, 2015, 11:26 am |
I think 10/11 were some form of positive, but Badlands Truckstop and the Evan Reds were easily the lowest at appreciated and liked, respectively. Raiders were at disliked.
Oh, and slight correction, reds/raiders initially went to "detested", not "scorned", and then the random shift put reds to "disliked" and raiders to "unappreciated" initially. Also, since the change (and having shot at absolutely no one not a raider or red before it happened), I randomly acquired a bounty, though my switch to Mutant primary faction may have had something to do with this. |
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*sam* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 12:26 pm |
OK, thanks. These changes will only happen to players whose gangs have positive rep with more than half of the factions.
Also, the changes are not very random. There is (behind the scenes) a matrix of relationships between each of the factions, and what the new code is doing is running through a system that already exists wherever reputation is gained or lost.. i.e. a faction is selected with whom you have positive rep., and this is used to drive down your rep. with its enemy factions. In fact, the only randomness is that the new system randomly chooses one faction at a time to apply this approach to, and it stops when you are no longer in positive rep. with more than half of the factions. The end result is that hopefully you should have a distribution of likes/dislikes that make logical sense. |
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Celticfrost Posted Oct 30, 2015, 12:39 pm |
Thanks Sam, I believe this should fix the issue of everyone loving you, which they certainly should not. 
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RotaryJunkie Posted Oct 30, 2015, 1:26 pm |
Hmm... Well, at present, my reps sort of make logical sense. Almost. Hell, I'm still at 6 factions offering me primary, and there's the problem. I left the Morgan faction which is usually a rep drop, no change, still (and in fact, the only one) at Honoured. Actually, speaking of Morgan faction, I'd almost hazard a guess that it was the issue in the first place. I know of zero players who'd managed the balancing act without being Morgan primary, perhaps this has something to do with exactly zero factions having negative feelings towards Morgan itself? In fact, exactly zero factions have any feelings one way or the other about MO. Now, however, I'm forced to actively go hunting MO faction (although I only have 3 people in MO for the purpose of defenses) in order to bring it down to something reasonable without absolutely destroying my reputation in every city I'm active in at all. Same goes for Privateers having survived the changes with a positive rep. Actually, I could argue that the issue in the first place was the distribution of faction relations. My previous rep balance (positive with everyone save raiders, truceable with all save raiders and BLTS) was achieved almost entirely off hunting raiders, then knocking some merchants around as long as their rep was at or above respected. Should my Privateer rep really be amazing when all I do most days is knock around a faction that is effectively frenemies with them, and would not hesitate to shoot them if they came around an area I am actually active in? Should my Civ/Merchant rep be neutral- regardless of how much I hurt their enemies because I myself employ mutants to great effect in order to do so? I don't know. At present, I'm not necessarily mad at the change (in fact, if anything I see it as a good thing, particularly considering my whole "well, if you're willing to put the work in, you should be able to ensure safe passage between two or so towns, but not necessarily more), but it does put me in a very awkward position where if I want to be in good standing with the home team in any city I'm active in, I now have to hunt considerably more gangs that are outside my "normal" reach or hunt those I am slightly opposed to hitting. |
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*sam* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 1:58 pm |
You may be right. Morgan was added much later than the others, and of course the town was supposed to be unknown and out of contact with the rest. Perhaps this needs to change, and relationships with other factions added? |
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RotaryJunkie Posted Oct 30, 2015, 2:16 pm |
That would likely work. Also, I've come to the conclusion that because of my present rep status, I absolutely cannot improve my Civ or Merchant rep until I manage to drop two or so factions to neutral, trouble being Morgan and Privateers. There's no way to drop their rep without digging a hole with one of the factions I want to wind up positive with... And even then, any attempt to drag them back up effectively will drag the Privateers back up as well.
So short of losing my mind and making literally everyone hate me, I'm now forced into a pure piracy style of play just to continue making money. Or I could quit Darkwind for however many weeks it actually takes to neutral my rep back out and then work back from that point... Not much of a good option. |
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d0dger Posted Oct 30, 2015, 2:59 pm |
Or kill raiders? |
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RotaryJunkie Posted Oct 30, 2015, 3:07 pm |
Wasn't working. Possible workaround found involving abuse of joining and leaving primary factions, may be able to negrep the Privateers. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 3:37 pm |
I can reset all your reps, if you like. This is the sort of thing I'm always happy to offer following a rule change. | ||||||||
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*The X Man* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 5:55 pm |
There are going to be quite a few players most likely requesting this. I will pass their requests onto you as quickly as possible when they are brought to my attention. |
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*sam* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 6:08 pm |
Thanks! I don't think very many people would have had the new code triggered on them though. | ||||||||
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RotaryJunkie Posted Oct 30, 2015, 6:49 pm |
It seems as if it's been triggered on pretty much anyone with any form of a reputation; as it sits now, because it is impossible for more than 5 factions to be at any form of positive rep, everyone is "stuck" with whoever they wound up positive with until they manage to knock someone back to neutral or lower... If they are even able to.
Never have I ever had my rep absolutely not move after 5+ hard scouts after a single faction. Well, until today. Then I hit some BL anarchists and once again no change. Edit: Rep reset in effect, 2 scouts in, no change as of yet. |
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*sam* Posted Oct 30, 2015, 7:34 pm |
They are changing (I can see the numbers) but have not gone outside the 'neutral' description yet |
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RotaryJunkie Posted Oct 30, 2015, 7:36 pm |
Aye, raiders dropped to "unappreciated" right as head popped on the next roll. | ||||||||
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Oct 31, 2015, 5:41 am |
Has any thought been given to one slight loophole in this fix?
First, this is a better idea than the last, Thanks Sam. Second: what about a Loophole that exists? Some factions will truce with you even when Unappreciated or Neutral: -Merchants -Civs -Evan Reds -Deathrace Mafia -Badlands Truckstop -Morgan When I was privateer Faction right after Morgan came into existence I was able to truce nearly everyone because I was very high Rep with Privateer, Slaver, Anarchist and Mutant. I was Unappreciated by Evan Reds and Civs, Neutral with Merchants, DRM, and BLT. Adored in Morgan. As such I was able to Truce those 10 factions (with a rare exception occurring within my own faction when I got a single gang that always refused to truce despite being Privateers. Never figured that one out) Anyway, if this only triggers when you are good rep with over 1/2 the factions, what if I'm careful and only rep-up with 5 of the 11 factions and then Neutral-Truce with the 6 that will Truce at Neutral or worse? (Next post: Goat calling me an imbecil and that I don't know what im talking about while he blows up his gang in a fleet of fire trucks) |
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*The X Man* Posted Oct 31, 2015, 8:28 am |
What 5 factions would allow this to happen? |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Oct 31, 2015, 8:30 am |
The 5 faction out of the 11 that require positive rep to truce. Mutant, Anarchist, Slaver, Raider, Privateer. Because the other 6 will truce at Unappreciated and Neutral depending on the faction |
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*Bastille* Posted Oct 31, 2015, 11:39 am |
I think this is a good point.
I have not been able to truce with your stated factions at respected, even my own chosen faction, but most of the time can truce. |
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*Bastille* Posted Nov 2, 2015, 3:33 am |
Im finding all my reps leveling out to neutral much quicker. I might have had 5+ positive reps at the start of last week, but now everything is near neutral including my chosen faction (which generally took months of inaction to reach its current state) | ||||||||
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Racing Robbie Posted Nov 2, 2015, 1:17 pm |
Same here - only the factions I scout regularly against are negative and obviously their opposites are positive | ||||||||
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Tallus Posted Nov 4, 2015, 5:25 pm |
The good news: it's easier to balance reps at neutral. The bad news: what's the reward to playing the rep game? And if there is little or no reward, doesn't this mean that the change has simply removed a dimension of play from the game? "First do no harm?" |
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*Tango* Posted Nov 4, 2015, 5:45 pm |
the only thing that's been lost here is the ability to play a game to try and make everyone like you. Hero points and faction reputation benefits have not changed. This game is not peaceful post apocalyptic wasteland shipping and diplomacy. |
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*Brunwulf* Posted Nov 4, 2015, 6:50 pm |
I Absolutely agree Tango. Why would any wastelanders show favours just cos you killed a few of their enemies? This is a good change IMHO. It's dog eat dog out there- so just make sure your teeth are bigger, and your tail wags faster! |
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Bolt Thrower Posted Nov 4, 2015, 7:10 pm |
Right, it is a manufacturing Sim where idiots fight to give themselves a magical manufacturing boost so they can build better stuff than the game environment even though NPC's outnumber players immensely and apparently have unlimited resources. That is soooo much more apocalyptic. I mean seriously, have you witnessed how much actual death and destruction goes into balancing reps. |
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*Tango* Posted Nov 4, 2015, 8:51 pm |
1. That's not the issue being discussed. Please start a new thread in the discussion forum if you'd like to discuss fame or join in one of the other ongoing discussions. 2. Referring to everyone participating in SCL and sponsorship auctions as an idiot is out of line. Please keep it civil, if you can't get your message across without insults you are invited to keep it to yourself. In the world Sam has designed the wilderness is rather wild and the towns are rather civil. They have advertising, manufacturing, trade, healthcare and sports. There is a great difference in between what goes on outside of towns and inside of them. The cities are walled, gated or fenced with palisades or natural geographical features to make them castles or fortresses unto their selves and keep the wilderness at bay. This may seem incongruous to you, but it's the way it is, has been and most likely will stay. Sam's made it very plain that he never intended the reputation system to allow unarmed, unarmored squads to move freely about unmolested. |
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Bolt Thrower Posted Nov 4, 2015, 9:41 pm |
As regards the bold part, as long as I only imply an insult but don't state it, it is OK. Your statement seems hypocritical as you seem to want everyone to play like you. Sorry if you found the sarcasm out of line. He was pointing out changes and asking a simple question. And yes, an element of play has been gotten rid of. People who balance reps had to play everywhere, not just grinding the easy gangs in SS. They also killed a lot of high fame NPC gangs to get the movement of the reps.. So it is not peaceful shipping and diplomacy until after all the death and destruction. Now there is no reason to play in SF (or any other town) unless your camp is there. |
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*Tango* Posted Nov 4, 2015, 9:58 pm |
Sarcasm is poorly transmitted via words on a screen with no tone of voice. The word "like" in the sentence in question was meant in the forms of affectionate, not in the form of the same as. Calling people idiots is not sarcasm. I don't see any implied insults, maybe you're reading something into it that's not there because I disagree with your point of view. I don't care if you play like me or not. Personally I could do without racing, but I don't care if you devote yourself to it. You're not being forced to play like me and pretending you are is spurious and without merit. Your claim that it may not be as advantageous to be located in one town or another may hold merit but I'm not a good judge of that as I'm not in that town. I can think of a lot of reasons to play in one particular town or another but that's another debate and getting off topic, start another thread if you like. The reputation system was being used in a manner that was unintended and you can talk circles around yourself but you will always come crashing back into that solid fact. Argue all you want, blame me if you like, but the world has changed back to what Sam intended it be. |
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Tallus Posted Nov 4, 2015, 10:29 pm |
I'm happy to continue debating the nature of the game world in another thread. And certainly the change is great if it is a precursor to Sam introducing more content to better express his vision of the (non-Scav) post-apocalyptic wasteland.
My point here, though, is that the change in and of itself objectively shrinks the sandbox, and for some portion of the population makes the game less fun at the same time that it appeals to some vocal players (Sam, Goat Starer, who don't really seem to play all that much). I'm uncertain of the business justification for such a change? Will it bring back more players than it offends? |
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*goat starer* Posted Nov 5, 2015, 12:48 am |
some of us have real lives and very young children... we still play and have historically played far more than you ever will. You seem to have just singled out 2 players.. one of the MADE the game and the other has played 3 times as many events with his 4th gang as you have played in total....god knows how many more with all of them. When you have contributed to the game in a meaningful way... you know.. made the mutant skins.. provided hndreds of rare skins... run loads of one off events.. been a marshal.. been a mentor for hndreds of players.. made all those free skins for players etc. then you can comment on how much people play today. In what way does it "shrink the sandbox"? removing ne ridiculous loophole exploit in the rep code vastly increases the sandbox by forcing a bunch of dullards to adapt their play to something more dynamic. The sandbox just became an infinitely more varied, dangerous and interesting place for that partiular group. reintroduce open PVP in the southern trangle and we can make it even more interesting, |
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Tallus Posted Nov 5, 2015, 1:09 am |
I like the idea of more (any) PVP. On the face of it that would be abetted solution to the 1L Lorries. It also solves the problem that everyone who doesn't love you (and can attack you) in game is pretty hapless.
From your post, however, I take it the rep change is unlikely to increase your future participation in the game even though it may drive away some dullards? You know your example in no way contradicts my argument? |
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*goat starer* Posted Nov 5, 2015, 2:02 am |
you dont have an argument... the rep issue has never affected my play as i have never tried to exploit game mechanics. So no.. it wont increase my playing as it has no effect on my play. I have no idea what example you are talking about. I didnt give an example. I just explained why your claim that the change shrank the sandbox was silly..it changes the sandbox... it in no way makes it smaller. |
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Tallus Posted Nov 5, 2015, 2:14 am |
It doesn't bring you back to the game, even though it may drive away some customers, or as you term them, 'dullards.' Doesn't sound like the best strategy, Of course you and your favorite dullards only constitute examples of the larger dynamic, which is that the change is likely to make some people quite unhappy without really providing a better game experience for the silent majority, or even for the not-so silent members of the majority, such as yourself. |
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*Bastille* Posted Nov 5, 2015, 3:13 am |
Im not sure the change is working as intended.
Reps seem to be pushing back to neutral even when there are not 5 positive reps. It seems hard to get any real rep away from neutral |
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*Tango* Posted Nov 5, 2015, 3:46 am |
I used to get a little love from the Slavers for the attacks I was doing on the Evan Reds. That's gone. Things do seem to be regressing to the mean a little stronger. Civs Liked Merchants Respected Anarchists Unappreciated Mutants Unappreciated Slavers Neutral Badlands Truckstop Unappreciated Morgan Appreciated Deathrace Mafia Liked Evan Reds Disliked Raiders Disliked Privateers Neutral |
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*Bastille* Posted Nov 5, 2015, 4:23 am |
Ive dropped to respected with the reds,.. from adored to respected in one week (I believe, I hope Ive got that right)
I only run a handful of events each week, I can't keep up |
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*The X Man* Posted Nov 5, 2015, 5:05 am |
Sound like you are developing a case of eREPtile disfunction. Take a Viagra, if your rep stays up longer than 4 hours, see a doc.
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Master TMO Posted Nov 5, 2015, 5:52 am |
I don't know if this is related to this change or not, but it might be.
Here are my current reps: TOWN STANDINGS Somerset Locally legendary Home Town! Elmsfield Locally recognised Gateway Locally recognised Badlands Locally anonymous Texan Locally anonymous Sarsfield Locally anonymous Morgan Locally anonymous Firelight Locally prominent Shantyville Locally anonymous FACTION STANDINGS Civs Neutral Merchants Neutral Anarchists Neutral Mutants Appreciated Slavers Appreciated Badlands Truckstop Neutral Morgan Appreciated Deathrace Mafia Appreciated Evan Reds Neutral Raiders Neutral Privateers Appreciated Twice in a row now, Somerset Militia has intercepted my returns and declined every attempt to truce. The town of Somerset loves me, and I'm neutral to Civs. Shouldn't they be accepting my truces? The first return I was bringing in loot, and they destroyed one of the loot cars and killing one of my people before I could get into town and escape. Second return I had no loot and my cars had no critical damage, so I easily outraced them into town and escaped. My gang is Scavenger, if that matters. Trueblood. |
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*Bastille* Posted Nov 5, 2015, 6:11 am |
We don't want to be friends with everyone, but relationships need to make sense too, and be easily effected/with standing | ||||||||
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*Boonwolf* Posted Nov 5, 2015, 7:33 am |
Imo flying the flag of a faction should count for a baseline positive rep standing. | ||||||||
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*Bigspenner* Posted Nov 5, 2015, 11:22 am |
My rep has never been as good as it is now since the changes !
Civs Adored Primary Faction! Merchants Neutral Anarchists Neutral Mutants Neutral Slavers Neutral Badlands Truckstop Adored Morgan Adored Deathrace Mafia Neutral Evan Reds Honoured Raiders Neutral Privateers Admired I have never managed it at all though! |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 5, 2015, 2:15 pm |
Honor or Death, Civs gang, just accepted a truce from me in the field. Somerset Militia did not intercept me on the way home. |
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*Splurs* Posted Nov 5, 2015, 11:30 pm |
So looking at Bigs rep there how has the rep system been fixed? I thought to be liked by someone you needed to be disliked by another? Now he is at the very least neutral with ALL gangs and like even more by others, no "bad" rep with anyone.
Hardly seems balanced. I am not picking on you Big, just trying to show a point. |
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*Bigspenner* Posted Nov 5, 2015, 11:48 pm |
Didn't last long maybe it was transitional ?
Civs Admired Primary Faction! Merchants Unappreciated Anarchists Unappreciated Mutants Neutral Slavers Neutral Badlands Truckstop Adored Morgan Honoured Deathrace Mafia Unappreciated Evan Reds Honoured Raiders Unappreciated Privateers Admired |
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JoniBoy Posted Nov 5, 2015, 11:54 pm |
My reputations seem to be very volatile, every scout changes em a lot. Perhaps is just in the begining and will stabilise a bit later on. | ||||||||
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*Tango* Posted Nov 6, 2015, 12:13 am |
We did just have weekly rollover so they would be tracking back towards neutral tonight. | ||||||||
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 6, 2015, 6:30 pm |
Exactly. And now it is actually EASIER to truce all factions because 6 of the 11 will truce at Neutral or Unapreciated. You only ever had to get positive rep with about 45% of the gangs to truce everything. The change simply makes the balancing act **Different** If I had the time to play I'd prove the point. But since I don't I'll let some other enterprising player display it instead. This is a good start, but doesn't fix the core issues (there are more than one that have a synergy creating the larger problem. I see 3 core issues but there may be more. And no, one of them isn't the player envy jealousy thing. That's more a social and psychological issue better left to a therapist) |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 9, 2015, 6:20 pm |
SS Militia did it again. Although I am Unappreciated with Civs at the moment (the result of two Much-Too-Tempting scout encounters). I'm wondering if Sam has turned on some sort of Treachery flag for these encounters. This time I'm sure I looked like an easy target, 2 cars (1 pretty wounded) escorting a breached and essentially unarmed lorry full of fuel (I'd taken out all of its weapons save 1 in capturing it).
That's exactly the sort of target a treacherous gang would go for. |
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Bolt Thrower Posted Nov 9, 2015, 6:32 pm |
I was hit by the Texan Militia at neutral, so I think there is just a certain chance to get hit by militia when returning now. |
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PA Racers Posted Nov 9, 2015, 6:46 pm |
So basically, just added another time sink! So now if I want to scout vs civs/merch better have time to play scout plus return, gotcha! | ||||||||
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Master TMO Posted Nov 11, 2015, 2:11 pm |
I'm leaning toward nope. They did it again last night, again when I was coming back with a loot car and a breached side. They cost me my dual GG Merc car. At this point I'm leaning toward the thought that if I'm going to get attacked by the Militia every time I try to bring back loot anyways, I might as well just hunt the Militia in the first place. I've been trying to play nice with Civs, even though they're easier targets. 
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*The X Man* Posted Nov 11, 2015, 5:51 pm |
I just checked your event history. Your last dozen events showed you hit 4 Civ faction gangs, IGE & HoD, one after the other. The first gates return after that, you pulled the Militia. That doesn't surprise me at all, even if you are currently neutral with them. You poke someone in the eye enough times, you have to expect someone to come after you.
The most recent encounters, you pulled gates, so you were not get get the Militia anyways. But your most recent scout ended by getting a return encounter... and the Militia showed up once again. One weekly update may be enough for them to 'forget' your recent activities. If not, try using your Hero Points to patch things up. Only other thing I can suggest it to stop hitting Civs and go on a strict Raider diet for awhile. You will probably see a change in your town arrival encounters drop after that. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 11, 2015, 8:47 pm |
I played Paintball last night and even though I was Neutral with every faction, it said the "Some NPC gangs dislike you and may exact revenge after you resign" thing.
Being paintball that was unlikely but I wonder why I sees neutrality as someone disliking me |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 11, 2015, 9:50 pm |
Right, I was Unappreciated with Civs for a while there, but I was under the impression that Civs truced on Unappreciated also. But for the first and last I was Neutral, I'm pretty sure. And you have to go back to Nov 4th for the first Militia attacks, and most of my encounters before that were Raiders. Oh, and btw, I don't want to sound like I'm whining. I'm not upset over developments. It's part of the game. I'm not sure if Sam has made any code changes. The sudden (from my perspective) change in the Militia's behavior implies that he has, so I'm giving feedback. It's all good. *IF* there's been a change in the militia's behavior and it's not just the luck of the draw or something I've caused, then it might be a bit harder for new players to get a leg up, if the militia is in the habit of intercepting weakened loot convoys. But it's also likely that the cause is something I did. 11/1: Hit 1 Evan Red 11/3: Hit 2 Civ 11/4: Hit 1 Raider; Intercepted by SS Militia 11/5: Hit 1 Raider, Intercepted by SS Militia; Truce 2 Civ (I was Unappreciated here) 11/6: Hit 1 Raider, Hit 1 Civ 11/7: Hit 4 Raider 11/8: Hit 1 Evan Red; Truce 1 Civ, Hit 1 Civ 11/9: Hit 2 Civ; Intercepted by SS Militia 11/10: Hit 2 Raider; Escape from 2 Raider 11/11: Hit 1 Raider; Intercepted by SS Militia (I was back to neutral) So, yes, I did do some provoking of Civ faction. But, if Civs supposedly truce at Unappreciated or better, why wasn't the Militia accepting my truces? My total counts for the month of November, btw: Raiders: Attacked 10 times; Escaped 2 times; Destroyed 21 cars; Killed 5 gangers Civs: Truced 3 times; Attacked 6 times; Escaped 4 times; Destroyed 13 cars; Killed 5 gangers (my normally preferred target, but they've been hard to find): Evan Reds: Attacked 2 times, Escaped 0 times; Destroyed 5 cars; Killed 7 gangers PS - Looking at this list, I notice that the first Civs I hit were gangs I don't see often. RTA Incorporated and Children of the Apocalypse. It's possible that I didn't realize they were Civs. Or it's possible I didn't care. I really don't remember for sure.
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Master TMO Posted Nov 11, 2015, 10:06 pm |
I guess what I'm getting at is, I don't know if this behavior is normal for the SS Militia after provocation, but that doesn't fall within the "Civs truce at unappreciated" general rule, or if it's new behavior prompted by the new 'Everybody doesn't love you' code.
If the latter, it's feedback. If the former, it's educational for me. Win-win either way for me. 
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*The X Man* Posted Nov 11, 2015, 10:27 pm |
There is no such "rule". This is info given by other players based on what they have experienced. These are also players that most likely have much higher skilled scouts or more scouting specialisms than what you have. Since you are playing in Scav, thats probably one thing to consider. These types of truces may have been possible to do before, but now with the current changes made to faction reps, this may not be as easy to do anymore. |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 11, 2015, 10:36 pm |
Cool, good to know. And yes, my scouts are very low level, if even present at all. Somewhere in the thread above, "5 factions truce at Unappreciated or above" is stated as if it was a rule, and no one quibbled over it, so I took it as such. It's nice to know that it's not as simplistic as all that. More complicated systems are more fun. |
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Bolt Thrower Posted Nov 11, 2015, 11:24 pm |
Consider that the person who said that about the 5 factions may have had a scout with specs in Negotiator. I have never had that spec do anything for me that I can tell, but I usually don't try to truce. Merchant traders have offered me a truce before at unappreciated, so always happy to get them on a return. not sure about other traders. Militia hitting at neutral is a new thing as far as I know. It is possible that I was on the low end of neutral and that it has always been that way, though. |
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*goat starer* Posted Nov 12, 2015, 12:01 am |
That was crispin... People gave up pointing out that he had blatantly misunderstood game mechanics, made assumptions based on incomplete information or just credulously believed nonsense years ago. Sorry about that. Somebidy should have pointed it out at the time but he tends to think people are picking on him and most of us have given up. It's a really good idea to work out which forum posters have a good grasp of the game or this sort of thing happens. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 13, 2015, 3:01 am |
Yes that was me. And when I was Anarchist and when I was privateer and when I was renegade this was true almost 100% of the time with or without a trained scout.
Occasionally there were exceptions but it was less then 1% of the time. I would bet money Sam changed this. He does seem to make quiet changes when someone mouths off about how his "fix" won't affect them. And I tend to mouth off a lot.
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*goat starer* Posted Nov 13, 2015, 9:16 am |
It has never been true outside of your head. | ||||||||
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 14, 2015, 4:22 am |
Yuh Huh! lol |
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*sam* Posted Nov 14, 2015, 9:51 am |
Cool. I'll give you 1000000-1 odds, how much you putting up? ;-) |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 14, 2015, 10:27 pm |
lol. only you know for sure and I cant prove it.
and I bet you want my dollar! |
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*goat starer* Posted Nov 14, 2015, 10:44 pm |
erm no crispin.... on those odds he wants your 1 million dollars... uness you were planning to stake one one millionth of a dollar? | ||||||||
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 14, 2015, 10:58 pm |
I read it wrong then, I thought he was offering 1,000,000 to 1 odds. Meaning he was offering a million to my 1 because he was so sure I would lose.
I don't gamble so I must have read it backwards. Kinda like how 5x3 is 3+3+3+3+3 and NOT 5+5+5 according to schools in my country. |
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*Splurs* Posted Nov 15, 2015, 12:16 am |
It seems to me that the rep system is still quite broken, and it seems like I can balance more rep now than I could before the "fix".
After absolutely smashing raiders out of GW, and Anarchists out of BL, this is what my rep looks like. Before the fix I would be scorned by the anarachists and raiders by now. I have hit the civs and merchs only once or twice and it was only with 2 or 3 car scouts. Nothing in comparison to the raider/anarchist hits I did. Not to mention in the past when I have done the same, Slavers and Mutants would take a negative view at me also. Civs Respected Merchants Honoured Anarchists Unappreciated Mutants Neutral Slavers Neutral Badlands Truckstop Honoured Morgan Respected Deathrace Mafia Liked Evan Reds Neutral Raiders Unappreciated Privateers Neutral |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 15, 2015, 3:46 am |
I feel no guilt. I truced every Civ gang today and I was neutral to Civs. The Militia intercepted me and wouldn't truce. So I murdered them.
Yeah, I'm Unappreciated now.. I'll live with it. My scout is mid-20's, for what it's worth. PS - I'm appreciated by Morgan and Privateers. Going to be hard to remove those so that I can get Appreciated by useful gangs for operating around SS. Should faction reputations change for factions that don't operate in the region where you're at? Yes, I'm sure the rules allow it. I'm wondering if they *should* allow it. |
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*sam* Posted Nov 15, 2015, 9:40 am |
You had it right actually, I did mean 1000000 to 1. But of course it was a joke ;-) |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 16, 2015, 5:34 am |
Okay, objectively, I know I've just gotten myself into a recursive loop with the Militia. I've truced every single Civs gang I've encountered in the wilds, and the Militia has intercepted me twice. Both times I fought them instead of running. So now not only am I Unappreciated by Civs, they've put a bounty out on me. Subjectively, it feels like they're bullying me, and pissed off because I'm daring to fight back.
And because I have 5 Appreciateds, they'll never get back above neutral unless I manage to drop somebody else somehow. The two obvious ones to drop (Morgan and Privateers) don't operate in SS for me work on. I can see 4 easy options: * Give up scouting for a week or so until they forget about me. * Go pirate and either continue the way I am (trucing in the wild and hunting Militia) or hunting all Civs * Move to Gateway and just get away from the Militia. GW is Merchant allied at the moment, and have a wider variety of factions to hunt. * Hunt Mutants in SS and run away from returns until the mutants hate me and the Civs like me. |
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PvtParty Posted Nov 16, 2015, 8:57 am |
Another option: Hunt high fame gangs that are hated by the Civs/Merchants to build up hero points, then use them to "buy back" friendship with the Civs. | ||||||||
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Master TMO Posted Nov 16, 2015, 3:08 pm |
How interesting. My bounty went up overnight while I was asleep. Delayed processing from an earlier encounter, I assume?
Update: And now it's gone up a *third* time, even though I haven't been playing. |
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*Joskney* Posted Nov 17, 2015, 2:36 am |
Are you worth killing yet?? HMMM enterprising minds want to know.
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Master TMO Posted Nov 17, 2015, 4:08 am |
Nah. Only 275 a person, and only 6 of my people are eligible. I'm still small fry. | ||||||||
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PvtParty Posted Nov 17, 2015, 9:06 am |
Yeah, but it will improve our reps if we eradicate your hated gang 
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*Bigspenner* Posted Nov 17, 2015, 11:41 am |
Something quite interesting has happened to my reps!
Civs Fancied Merchants Scared Anarchists Lusted After Mutants Bit Dodgy Slavers Arificial Badlands Truckstop Bemused Morgan Creepy Deathrace Godlike Evan Reds Hugely Endowed Raiders Under Endowed Privateers Amused I don't Know what sams done here ! |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 17, 2015, 2:29 pm |
*puzzled* Okay... I haven't left town at all in a couple of days, only doing a few in-town events, and my bounty has gone up *AGAIN*. I honestly don't know why the Militia dislikes me even more now. The only thing I can think of is that I hired a new ganger last night who has a >30 skill, so instead of 6/11 potential targets, now it's 7/12. | ||||||||
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The Paranoid Tourist Posted Nov 17, 2015, 8:56 pm |
Things do seem weird. I'm now locally notorious in SS despite not having recently done anything that should make them angry. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Nov 17, 2015, 9:36 pm |
Notorious means high fame and neutral rep. |
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d0dger Posted Nov 17, 2015, 11:57 pm |
Failed missions that the timer expired on? |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 18, 2015, 1:18 am |
No missions active at the moment. I don't currently qualify for any. |
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PvtParty Posted Nov 18, 2015, 9:15 am |
You should still be able to advertise for courier missions. It's a very good way to improve your standings with the factions - assuming you succeed that is, otherwise your rep will get even worse. | ||||||||
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Master TMO Posted Nov 18, 2015, 2:19 pm |
Scavengers can't do those.
At any rate, it appears none of my rep problems are directly caused by the changes Sam has made to the code, so I'll stop reporting them in this thread and distracting from the main focus. Thanks all for the help and advice! |
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*Bigspenner* Posted Nov 18, 2015, 2:36 pm |
Further to my previuos post Something quite interesting has happened to my reps! and now its getting even stranger.
Civs Lusting Merchants Dithery Anarchists Stalking Mutants Villainous Slavers Delirious Badlands Truckstop Completely Bewildered Morgan Magnetic Deathrace Godlike Evan Reds Hugely Endowed Raiders Under Endowed Privateers Happy I don't Know what sams done here ! |
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*Snipe* Posted Nov 18, 2015, 4:32 pm |
Drunken posts will, from here on out, be ignored | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Nov 18, 2015, 9:41 pm |
Reds are indeed hugely endowed | ||||||||
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*Bastille* Posted Nov 19, 2015, 10:42 am |
Good to see the rep systems has finally been fixed. next issue.
------------------------------------------------------- imageshack is failing me this is just a substitute |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 20, 2015, 1:57 am |
This one *might* be related to the change, might not. This morning, I was neutral to Raiders. This afternoon, I was unappreciated. This evening, I'm neutral again.
I did do a travel, but just ran away from the encounter. And this evening's check is after midnight server time. Update: Hrmph. the reset came along and lowered my morale from 200 to 170, but my faction reps are unchanged. Unappreciated Civs, appreciated Mutants, Slavers, Morgan, DRM, Privateers. |
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Bolt Thrower Posted Nov 21, 2015, 5:50 am |
despite the client warning, i am still unimpressed by the messed up economy. Given the farming of SS gangs it is mostly a joke. And overly sensitive hypocrites who think I should stay on topic, should shut up. You are a sad tragedy at best. | ||||||||
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*Bigspenner* Posted Nov 21, 2015, 3:40 pm |
Bot don't be a buffoon no one needs to be insulted just because you disagree with them. This off topic you know! | ||||||||
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RotaryJunkie Posted Nov 23, 2015, 11:15 am |
Okay, so my initial impression of the fix was "Okay, whatever, can only end up with 5 factions positive, shouldn't be too big of a deal" but the more I play, the more wrong it gets, worsening with each weekly neutralization.
Thought the reason I couldn't end up with positive Civ rep was my post-change switch to Mutant primary. Wrong. Went Renegade and dragged all my reps via leaving offered factions, have since been a raider-hunting renegade, with some Evan Red targets of opportunity thrown in for good measure. And yet my Civ/Merchant reputation randomly bounces between Unappreciated, Neutral, and occasionally Appreciated by Civs alone. Biggest issue is that at present raider hunting attempts to improve relations with 5!! factions (civs/merchants/mutants/Morgan/Privateers) with tons of knock-on effects as each of those 5 being improved obviously have other factions those positive effects either bring up or bring down. Prior to the change, a strict Raider/Red diet would lead to strong relations with all save anarchists, reds, and Raiders, that's 8 factions trying to go net positive from killing two. I don't have any issue with the fix itself, or the way it is meant to work (though I'd have preferred a fix of the underlying issues instead), but ironically the "fix" just obviates the need for a complete overhaul of faction relations, which would've solved the problem in the first place. My only ask is that you actually make the game work how you intend it. At present, everything is fighting itself in a way that makes little to no sense. |
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*sam* Posted Nov 23, 2015, 11:51 am |
Thanks for the input. Several people have mentioned that improving the actual faction relations formulas would be a very useful thing. It might make sense to form a small group of people willing to take this on and figure out the numbers?? | ||||||||
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Master TMO Posted Nov 23, 2015, 2:07 pm |
That's the kind of thing I love to do. Yah, I'm weird, but count me in if you're willing to have a lesser-experienced player. |
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RotaryJunkie Posted Nov 23, 2015, 3:28 pm |
Same here. | ||||||||
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Master TMO Posted Nov 23, 2015, 6:36 pm |
Another bit of reputation weirdness:
I was Unappreciated vs Civs and Raiders both. I scouted and redded a couple of Ironmonger gangers, and now I'm Neutral vs both. |
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*goat starer* Posted Nov 24, 2015, 1:05 am |
Why is that weird? | ||||||||
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RotaryJunkie Posted Nov 24, 2015, 1:22 am |
Because raider rep shouldn't improve from ignoring an offered truce and killing raiders. | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Nov 24, 2015, 1:25 am |
Raiders have self loathing
If TMO wants people to take this seriously he needs to post some rep pics from before and after scouts. Screenshots with Time and date. As it stands rather suspect a liveware problem rather due to wet memory drop out rather than a code of database error. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 24, 2015, 2:05 am |
I gained Slaver rep by not playing. Went from Neutral to Appreciated. Possibly its an effect of being Anarchist aligned but it seems odd.
Now, if Goat was the ruler of the Slavers I could see that. Goat Appreciates when I don't play! Hey will I gain Goat Rep if I don't post in the forums? |
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RotaryJunkie Posted Nov 24, 2015, 3:09 am |
My entire event history for the last month is hitting raiders or reds aside from truced Civ encounters and a Bantonville Militia encounter I ran from and I'm experiencing much the same as TMO. In fact, my raiders just bounced to Neutral after another hit on them (with a Civ improvement as well). |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 24, 2015, 5:02 am |
K, I can do that. I know how to make sure character activity is fully updated. How do I make sure my rep screen cache is cleared each time? |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 24, 2015, 5:04 am |
AHA! I looked at my Reps after scouting some Ironmongers, and my Merchants and Anarchists dropped from Neutral to Unappreciated. I reloaded the frame, and they went back to Neutral. So there is some sort of software freak-out going on. The weird part is that I've been Neutral to Merchants and Anarchists for some time now. It just suddenly jumped to Unappreciated for no reason, then the reload reset it. I did not take screenshots though, sorry. I've take a screenshot of the current settings, and will keep an eye on things from here. 12 hour update: I didn't notice this at first this morning, but SS and EL no longer unappreciate me. This is in line with being neutral vs Civs. I've taken a screenshot just to record the change. Nothing weird to report yet. |
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Master TMO Posted Nov 29, 2015, 6:25 am |
I earned a hero point last night, and used it this morning. The website did a weirdy thing, but I was an idiot and just did a reload frame without a screenshot, so no proof yet. Sorry. I'm still keeping an eye on this and will post as soon as I have something that may give Sam a direction to start searching. | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Dec 3, 2015, 12:44 pm |
It's likely I'll change the way this operates soon.. (1) remove the automatic rebalancing that happens when 5+ factions like you, (2) tweak interfaction relationships, (3) make it so that trucing becomes very hard if you're running a poorly defended caravan, (4) add a set of untrucable pirates - possibly renegade. | ||||||||
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RotaryJunkie Posted Dec 3, 2015, 3:57 pm |
Good, good...
Any hints as to the planned implementation? Would it work the other way around at times, where you're heavily defended or carrying nothing of value instead increasing truce chance?
Spooky. Will they do the "We're gonna stalk you for a thousand miles even if you beat us into the dirt or could completely outrun 95% of our forces without breaking a sweat" that happens occasionally? |
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Master TMO Posted Dec 3, 2015, 4:05 pm |
Web funkiness proof:
After 3 scouting trips vs Ironmongers this morning: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26592145/Games/Screenshot%202015-12-03%2010.01.54.png After a frame reload: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26592145/Games/Screenshot%202015-12-03%2010.02.08.png And the server timestamp is visible in the web client itself. |
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JoniBoy Posted Dec 3, 2015, 4:22 pm |
After weeks of hunting Anarchists and muties in BL, my Badlands Truckstop rep changed from Honored to disliked(+ bounty) in only 2 Rolling Thunder hunts.
This rep system is still very volatile in my opinion |
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Bolt Thrower Posted Dec 3, 2015, 5:10 pm |
This would be cool if it could make negotiator feel like a viable specialism choice again. |
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Racing Robbie Posted Dec 3, 2015, 5:18 pm |
+1 to that | ||||||||
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*sam* Posted Dec 3, 2015, 8:44 pm |
The calcs are done on page refresh, so this is 'expected funkiness' ;-) |
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Master TMO Posted Dec 3, 2015, 8:56 pm |
Alright, that's fine. I'll keep an eye out for really weird funkiness then, like a random faction jumping way out of proportion to scouts. I've seen it once. I won't report anymore subtle funkies like these. Thanks! |
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*Bastille* Posted Dec 4, 2015, 11:29 am |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Feb 16, 2016, 3:30 pm |
well the current faction system makes it impossible to set the goal of getting in good with a faction. frustrating, and makes the faction system almost pointless since theres no ability to plan changes for your gangs standings. and look what happens, like with previous changes, people get frustrated that what they spent many hours trying to figure out and make use of is now useless, and the player base shrinks.
Another coffin nail. |
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*The X Man* Posted Feb 16, 2016, 6:35 pm |
Not impossible, you just haven't figured out what you need to do to make it work. I just checked on a player whose gang page shows they are honored by 7 of the 11 factions and no negative reps among the remaining 4, so it is very possible. |
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ninjamonkey73 Posted Aug 7, 2016, 1:55 pm |
Most of you who post in the forums are never in the lobby. | ||||||||
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*The X Man* Posted Aug 7, 2016, 7:47 pm |
Are Too!! 
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*Brunwulf* Posted Aug 7, 2016, 7:57 pm |
Are Three!! I'm in the lobby for about 6 hours a day on average. I am happy to chat about anything- and have recently passed on good ideas from the lobby on to the higher powers to think about. |
