*sam* Posted Jun 25, 2015, 11:19 am	I have just written some new code into the looting process, so that during Scav combats the opposition may carry some extra clips of random ammo. Let me know how this works ok, in terms of quantity and variation (and bugs).
*The X Man* Posted Jun 26, 2015, 7:00 am	Thank You Sam, we will keep an eye out for any anomalies or issues if they arise.
*Boonwolf* Posted Jun 26, 2015, 4:23 pm	Will edit on this to keep tabs of ammo drops ok ok FIRST drop I got was 3 units of HEAVEY LASER ammo did I find a mirror? 2nd run 1,100+/- CR Drop 3 Spike dropper 2 Oil jet 3rd run 700CR Drop 3 SMG ammo
*goat starer* Posted Jun 26, 2015, 7:48 pm	awesome... i dont have a heavy laser but i am wondering if i can also use it as a night light? incidentally... power packs / fuel cells should be required to run lasers.
*sam* Posted Jun 27, 2015, 5:03 pm	*Boonwolf* said: ok ok FIRST drop I got was 3 units of HEAVEY LASER ammo  did I find a mirror? Whahey!  I'll fix that bug now. I think there's a few units of laser ammo kicking around from a bug years ago. Keep them as a memento  ;-)
*goat starer* Posted Jun 27, 2015, 5:13 pm	seriously.. if it is dropping three units of ammo for a very rare weapon that seems rather excessive.... would hate to see more than the very rare cc or hcr clip dropped.
*Boonwolf* Posted Jun 27, 2015, 7:36 pm	goat starer said: seriously.. if it is dropping three units of ammo for a very rare weapon that seems rather excessive.... would hate to see more than the very rare cc or hcr clip dropped.   I'm with you on this one goat the very rare should be less than 3 on the drop. I will have to scout more to see what drops and how many. I have yet to get a ammo that falls into the useful rare.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jun 27, 2015, 9:12 pm	*sam* said: I have just written some new code into the looting process, so that during Scav combats the opposition may carry some extra clips of random ammo. Let me know how this works ok, in terms of quantity and variation (and bugs). I guess that's why 1 freelancer was hauling 7 HMG reloads!  I thought my Salvager 2 was just "That Good" like she keeps telling me. (it was a 3 vs 3 scout.  probably 375 to 450 CR out of Elmsfield Vs Merchant Traders)
*goat starer* Posted Jun 28, 2015, 10:00 am	*StCrispin* said: *sam* said: I have just written some new code into the looting process, so that during Scav combats the opposition may carry some extra clips of random ammo. Let me know how this works ok, in terms of quantity and variation (and bugs). I guess that's why 1 freelancer was hauling 7 HMG reloads!  I thought my Salvager 2 was just "That Good" like she keeps telling me. (it was a 3 vs 3 scout.  probably 375 to 450 CR out of Elmsfield Vs Merchant Traders) Again... Far too much. Ammo should be scarce... There should be a max of 1 extra clip.
*Boonwolf* Posted Jun 28, 2015, 8:40 pm	After a few more scouts I don't think the drop ammo is over the top. 0-3 seems the normal, out of my last few runs I had 2 that dropped nothing 1 dropped 1 RB reload and another dropped 2 spike dropper.
*The X Man* Posted Jun 28, 2015, 10:55 pm	Need to take into consideration that the added increase of ammo is not a guaranteed drop because you can still shoot up and damage cargo reducing the amount that makes it to the looting phase.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 28, 2015, 11:35 pm	Should never be more than one clip of anything. This is a lazy version of the trader suggestion
Master TMO Posted Jun 29, 2015, 2:00 am	Random math idea: 10% chance per car of carrying 1 clip of a random ammo. If it is carrying one, roll another 10% chance for another clip. Every success, check one more time @10% for more clips. Continue rolling until a failure. That way there's no upper limit, but realistically most of the time it'll only be 1.
*The X Man* Posted Jun 29, 2015, 3:45 am	goat starer said: Should never be more than one clip of anything. This is a lazy version of the trader suggestion Most encounters, a player is going to use at least one clip of ammo per weapon. If you can only loot a maximum of one clip, it wouldn't take long before you have zero ammo in your lockup. You need to be able loot more than you use so you can replenish your weapons and lockup. Now, if you meant only one clip of special or rare ammo, I agree. Wouldn't be right to stumble across 4-8 clips of CC ammo, even if you pulled a Gunboat on that encounter.
*Boonwolf* Posted Jun 29, 2015, 4:40 am	Yeah because AI would never have reloads! they scout with sharpened sticks and rubber bands. maybe if you scouted more Goat you would see is not manna. have ran 3 more scouts on trader gangs for a grand total of ........... NOTHING!!!! That's right you too can go out and loot a van full of plastic and get no coded Drop or even reloads from cars that had almost no damage.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 29, 2015, 6:34 am	I was talking about one extra clip... The random clip... You remember.. The whole point of this thread? Sometimes I do worry about people's attention spans Here is a little snapshot of my current ammo... All gained from scouting and trade... The current quantities are just not an issue. If you can't loot enough you are not doing it right. 142 x Machine Gun Magazines 50 x Rocket Launcher Magazines 11 x Crossbow Magazines 149 x Micromissile Launcher Magazines 14 x Rocket Propelled Grenade Magazines 39 x Shotgun Magazines 2 x Mounted Mortar Magazines 41 x Car Grenade Launcher Magazines 6 x Medium Rocket Magazines 18 x Light Rocket Magazines 29 x Flamethrower Magazines 10 x Heavy Flamethrower Magazines 1 x Molotov Belt Magazines 6 x Paint Spray Magazines 19 x Paint Gun Magazines 5 x Heavy Rocket Magazines 8 x Vehicular Shotgun Magazines 45 x Gatling Gun Magazines 8 x Rifle Magazines 12 x Mine Dropper Magazines 18 x Car Rifle Magazines 10 x Heavy Machine Gun Magazines 1 x Anti Tank Gun Magazines 3 x Heavy Gatling Gun Magazines 2 x Medium Machine Gun Magazines 9 x Spike Dropper Magazines 78 x Mine Dropper Magazines 11 x Paint Gun Magazines 17 x Paint Spray Magazines 33 x Car Grenade Launcher Magazines 14 x Vehicular Shotgun Magazines 18 x Flamethrower Magazines 21 x Rocket Propelled Grenade Magazines 5 x Heavy Smokescreen Magazines 39 x Grenade Belt Magazines 14 x Shotgun Magazines 14 x Pistol Magazines 6 x Flaming Oil Jet Magazines 6 x Rifle Magazines 65 x Machine Gun Magazines 3 x Light Rocket Magazines 46 x Rocket Launcher Magazines 63 x Micromissile Launcher Magazines 2 x Car Cannon Magazines 41 x Crossbow Magazines 25 x Submachine Gun Magazines 70 x Gatling Gun Magazines 13 x Car Rifle Magazines 13 x Heavy Flaming Oil Jet Magazines 10 x Molotov Belt Magazines 10 x Paint Rifle Magazines 2 x Medium Machine Gun Magazines 159 x Machine Gun Magazines 143 x Gatling Gun Magazines 4 x Heavy Car Rifle Magazines 189 x Micromissile Launcher Magazines 2 x Molotov Belt Magazines 42 x Flamethrower Magazines 61 x Car Rifle Magazines 35 x Medium Rocket Magazines 19 x Rocket Launcher Magazines 13 x Heavy Flamethrower Magazines 21 x Crossbow Magazines 32 x Shotgun Magazines 10 x Vehicular Shotgun Magazines 11 x Light Rocket Magazines 9 x Rifle Magazines 25 x Rocket Propelled Grenade Magazines 32 x Medium Machine Gun Magazines 32 x Car Grenade Launcher Magazines 22 x Paint Gun Magazines 20 x Paint Spray Magazines 19 x Heavy Rocket Magazines 2 x Grenade Belt Magazines 3 x Napalm Gun Magazines 13 x Submachine Gun Magazines 1 x Car Rifle Magazines 15 x Anti Tank Gun Magazines 4 x Rocket Launcher Magazines 1 x Crossbow Magazines 1 x Shotgun Magazines 2 x Flamethrower Magazines 1 x Medium Rocket Magazines
*The X Man* Posted Jun 29, 2015, 9:27 am	Just landed a Lorry and carrier van. Most of the drops were pretty standard. A bunch of MG ammo, but 2 HMG clips, 4 MD clips, and the bonus drop was 3 CC clips. Also 200+ units of fuel.
*Boonwolf* Posted Jun 29, 2015, 11:16 am	goat starer said: I was talking about one extra clip... The random clip... You remember.. The whole point of this thread? Sometimes I do worry about people's attention spans    yeah so am I Sometimes I do worry about peoples reading comprehension  The point I was making was not about mech ammo modifier. It was the fact that for me at least the extra magazines have not been dropping from loot.
*goat starer* Posted Jun 29, 2015, 4:43 pm	*Boonwolf* said: goat starer said: I was talking about one extra clip... The random clip... You remember.. The whole point of this thread? Sometimes I do worry about people's attention spans    yeah so am I Sometimes I do worry about peoples reading comprehension  The point I was making was not about mech ammo modifier. It was the fact that for me at least the extra magazines have not been dropping from loot. The AI has reloads... If you didn't shoot them up in a talentless orgy of wasteful play they would drop. The idea that sam has to make additional code to allow idiots to loot ammo even when they failed miserably to preserve the stuff the AI was carrying is just another step towards stopping scav being a hardcore mode and making it another moronic collectathon like regular. How about we also introduce code whereby there is a chance that a car turns into a better car at the loot screen? I am seriously starting to wish x had not started playing scav. It means we get changes that are completely counter to the point based on his very limited play experience.
*The X Man* Posted Jun 29, 2015, 5:00 pm	*Boonwolf* said: goat starer said: I was talking about one extra clip... The random clip... You remember.. The whole point of this thread? Sometimes I do worry about people's attention spans    yeah so am I Sometimes I do worry about peoples reading comprehension  The point I was making was not about mech ammo modifier. It was the fact that for me at least the extra magazines have not been dropping from loot. I had that same issue Boon. But like I said earlier, I believe it was from cargo being damaged during the encounter. The Lorry that was looted was done with the help of K1500. K managed to get the much needed stress on the last car that was knocking me around. Letting that last car go at that point saved a lot of loot, and my car lol. Its been harder in Scav scouts trying not zero out vehicles to save loot and preserve weapons of value. Sometimes you are gonna have to take those extra hits to increase your chances at getting that extra loot.
*Brunwulf* Posted Jun 29, 2015, 5:58 pm	*The X Man* said: Just landed a Lorry and carrier van. Most of the drops were pretty standard. A bunch of MG ammo, but 2 HMG clips, 4 MD clips, and the bonus drop was 3 CC clips. Also 200+ units of fuel. Nice haul XMAN! I'll take the HMG ammo for a trade if you want- that goes for anyone else who has any? I learned very early on in Scav that you have to re-think attack strategies to maximise loot- As XMAN says in another post- you can't just blow stuff to bits for the gunnery training like in DW. You have to try to breach 1 side, and then use small fire to maximise loot. Once you get a specced mech- it becomes much easier cos you don't have to worry so much about your own damage. Cars can be repaired, but Ammo is king and Queen of Scav. And 7 HMG ammo is absolutetly ridiculous- but hopefully it was just a very lucky random anomaly.
*The X Man* Posted Jun 29, 2015, 6:15 pm	We are only a few days into this change, so tweaks will mostly be required to get the drops in proper proportion. Having players posting here what they have come across will give Sam the info needed on how to adjust them.
*Boonwolf* Posted Jun 30, 2015, 7:28 am	Maybe they know I'm a pushover because lately I can red the gunner and blow off all the armor and they still will not demo. I seem to always loot ammo from trucks mercs light on fire and a pho wont stop. who knows I may just be unlucky this week.
*The X Man* Posted Jul 2, 2015, 4:59 pm	I have done a few more trader runs and it seems to be common that the special/rare ammo has been dropping in increments of 3s. If this continues to be the norm, I would recommend as Goat posted and make it just (1) one clip. So far, the variety mix and quantities seem to be at an acceptable amount per player in the event. Meaning, your loot take is enough to replenish what was used and to allow a little left over to put in your lockup. Good co-op play has seen players sharing this extra ammo to help prepare for a possible return.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 2, 2015, 5:22 pm	*The X Man* said: I have done a few more trader runs and it seems to be common that the special/rare ammo has been dropping in increments of 3s. If this continues to be the norm, I would recommend as Goat posted and make it just (1) one clip. So far, the variety mix and quantities seem to be at an acceptable amount per player in the event. Meaning, your loot take is enough to replenish what was used and to allow a little left over to put in your lockup. Good co-op play has seen players sharing this extra ammo to help prepare for a possible return. You really should not be building lock ups of ammo. Scav should be forcing you to use every last clip of mg. if it lets you scout regularly with whatever gun you choose it is just totally out of balance. Simple fix... As suggested ages ago... Keep it the way it was but allow weapons to be changed in scav instantly. This is a dreadful change.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 2, 2015, 5:26 pm	Please stop introducing care bear changes to scav. If you are not good enough to play it with mg ammo there is a perfectly serviceable alternative for the weak. Just play normal and leave the good things about scav alone.
*The X Man* Posted Jul 2, 2015, 6:11 pm	My post above was "in general" and doesn't always end up that way. Just ask K, his response to lasts night scout was he always ends up using more than he loots. Each player is different and their playing styles differ as well. I have been on both ends where I have earned a little extra and others where I have to raid my own lockup to replenish and retool. The Scav player base needs to increase so there is more interaction and stimulate trades. But until then, players need the basics to actually play the game. Having Scav turn into Darkwind 2: The Goat Chronicles is not gonna make it easier on the new comers to play and survive. There does have to be a mix of difficulty both so it will continually attract new players, but most importantly keep them playing and not staring at a lockup of useless gear.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 2, 2015, 6:16 pm	Making it easy solves nothing.. It just makes a clone of darkwind. What is the point of that? It is only scarcity that makes it more challenging and as my post of my lockup above shows its not even that scarce. This is not about making it the way I want it.. It's about stopping you blurring the lines to the point where scav has no purpose. It's not supposed to be easy for newcomers ffs. That is why it's described as playing in hardcore mode. You stop people looking at a lockup of useless gear by stopping some of it being useless and encouraging people to vary their weapon loads... You do that by making it quick to change guns. This is all really simple but you just keep rolling down a road that ends up with you one day coming on here and saying that to encourage trade between players we are introducing money.
*The X Man* Posted Jul 2, 2015, 7:55 pm	Not trying to make it easier, just playable. The difficulty and challenge in Scav from the actual gameplay, not from looting a few extra pieces of ammo. Whats the difference between that and another player handing out some extra clips to another who has none? At least in the loot phase, you actually earned those extra clips. But either way, did it make the game easier? or just make it playable?
*goat starer* Posted Jul 2, 2015, 8:46 pm	It's only any more difficult than normal because you are forced to use less good equipment... That is a function of scarcity.. The whole point of scav was about scarcity....Other than that the gameplay is EXACTLY THE SAME. I am seriously starting to worry about your bizarre knee jerk nonsense. Other people put a lot of thought into this and you have been playing for what? 5 minutes? Just because you don't have a fleet of buzzers yet doesn't mean it's unplayable. If it is the please explain my lockup post above? Or the well armed and equipped vehicles I drive around in? Ffs X you are completely wrong about the issues in scav and should just back off it until you have enough experience to make sensible comment.... That or I will pvp your crap crews in ss into the floor and you can keep playing from the dark ages... See how far your extra ammo goes then.
*The X Man* Posted Jul 2, 2015, 10:11 pm	No, I have only been playing for 3 minutes... at least that is what is in the captains log. I don't know how Buzzers got brought into this conversation when we were discussing ammo. (Besides, you still can't play with Buzzers if you dont have ammo for them) Now, resorting to violence to make a point is uncalled for. But if you feel that is your only recourse, bring it. The boys would enjoy a nice plate of Hasenpfeffer.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 2, 2015, 10:29 pm	X... How come is it that you can't address the point that ammo is far too EASY to acquire ... Ie. My lockup... And accept the fact that just because you find it difficult as a relative noob that doesn't make it a good idea to water down a perfectly serviceable system in a hardcore mode. You don't engage with the players... Don't listen to the ones with experience... Resorting to violence is kind of what this game about. And I am jolly good at it.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 2, 2015, 10:58 pm	The ammo I need is not easy to aquire. I have well ove 100 MG ammo but cant find enemy that uses an MG on their car so that I can run an MG to burn up the ammo. there is a REALLY EASY FIX: Make a dynamic economy where the AI has to produce and bring enough ammo for the guns THEY use. and then if we get lucky and intercept a supply run of theirs bringing out ammo, then wow we got ammo. And they didn't. so now that gang is off the list for the week. or till they get more ammo
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 2, 2015, 11:01 pm	first:  where does ammo come from? if the answer is "Town only" then the AI has to haul enough ammo out of towns to supply their scouts runs.  If the answer is "They have a camp and make it" then let scavs have a camp and make ammo" Ammo shouldn't just appear on trees.  every round fired should be produced in a player or NPC factory.  And we should be able to raid the factory and cart out ammo.  Maybe Ped? Dynamic Living Player Influenced Environment
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 2, 2015, 11:03 pm	but then again if Sam truly has moved on from Core Gameplay changes in DW then its just me ranting about what I would have liked to see if development was still underway on the core of the game.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 2, 2015, 11:31 pm	You can't find an AI build with an mg? There are hundreds of them including several builds than can be got from anc. I do worry about you crispy. Scav is a post apocalyptic game.. There are no factories... Just depleting resources and stockpiles with some shed remanufacture... You are thinking of the other darkwind where there are factories making laser Gatling starships.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 3, 2015, 1:21 am	goat starer said: You can't find an AI build with an mg?. nope they only attack me with stuff using HMG and Car Rifles it seems.  they don't like attacking me with light cars.  or maybe I just always break those since im trying to score HMG and CR ammo.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 3, 2015, 1:56 am	The notion that this is the apocalypse and resources are dwindling, including ammo, is a bit hard to believe IMO.  If that were the case then we would soon be reduced to Jousting from horseback. (since we forgot how to make fuel and forgot how to make gunpowder, or more properly, Cordite and brass and copper jacketed machinegun shells).
*The X Man* Posted Jul 3, 2015, 8:20 am	goat starer said: X... How come is it that you can't address the point that ammo is far too EASY to acquire ... Ie. My lockup... I never disputed obtaining ammo was easy. It is, especially players of your current caliber. goat starer said: And accept the fact that just because you find it difficult as a relative noob that doesn't make it a good idea to water down a perfectly serviceable system in a hardcore mode. It's not that hard. It is just your views of what make Scav hard are different than mine. It doesn't make mine or yours any more right or wrong than the other. goat starer said: You don't engage with the players... Big pile of horse crap. Half of my time on DW involves doing nothing but talking with players. Gathering information, getting opinions, listening to ideas, giving information to Sam. But why should you take my word for it. Go out and engage and ask for yourself. goat starer said: Don't listen to the ones with experience... Seems the last time I did this, misunderstandings occur and kneejerk responses soon follow. goat starer said: Resorting to violence is kind of what this game about. And I am jolly good at it. I guess there is one part we can finally agree upon.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 3, 2015, 10:52 am	Call it what you want... It was never hard to get ammo. I am currently running new crews in ss it's still not hard. It wasn't hard when I played regular for a year without ever buying ammo. You don't have a good grasp of this part of the game and if you don't understand something stop messing with it until you do. the main difference is that you push your deeply un-researched and subjective changes through... nobody else does. Its just abuse of position. There are very few scav players... yet at least 2 of them feel you totally disregarded their views. Hardly "Horse Crap" - what a delightful turn of phrase. you didn't listen to people with experience. You took a set suggestions that had been widely discussed and contributed to by people with serious scavenging experience like GM, Brun and myself. changed them to frequently do the exact opposite of the suggestion... and had sam implement them under the guise that they were the views of other people. Disingenuous in the extreme...
*Boonwolf* Posted Jul 3, 2015, 4:17 pm	I got a nice load of nothing for what I spent I dont think 2 MG ammo was worth the losses but I did get a drop this time of 2 VSG mags so wooo hooo 761412 I was down to 2 HMG rounds and 1 MG shot at the end lost a 89* G LG
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 4, 2015, 12:06 am	goat starer said: There are very few scav players... yet at least 2 of them feel you totally disregarded their views. That's the norm though for Scav players.  No mater what is or isn't done or who handles it, (referring to when me and Brun petitioned for improvements to Scav last year and you -goat- facilitated it) people end up feeling disrespected or shorted or ignored. As you probably remember we had about 14 items on our list between us, narrowed it to 5 by Sam's wishes, and ended up with ONE.  And THAT addition was a FIX which made Salvager skill work as it was intended by providing more salvaged ammo and such. it was a big help to the ammo issue but certainly didn't make it any easier.  Plus I don't think it was even on the list...
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 4, 2015, 12:10 am	in the prior list, The top items were "user defined courier sizes" (or the ability to split a courier mission bulk into multiple ::Packages:: so we could run those 890 bulk missions from Elms to Morgan or whatnot). Also in the list was revamping Mech uses, and things for mechs of high skill to actually do. Plus having a use for plastics, electronic parts, etc. We didn't get these. I think Sam mentioned he forgot how hard certain aspects of programming Scav had been and it wasn't a change that merited the time it would take to implement. Which is fair. But disheartening.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 4, 2015, 4:43 pm	All those things were on the list and extensively discussed. It's just weird that any changes that we're not in the original discussion are being made.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 4, 2015, 10:01 pm	Food and Water are more rare IMO than ammo. And working weapons. This has become even more the case now that the steam change causes even mint (unshot) loot to be potentially broken or perm. I had to throw out a "Mint" unshot 4L Pho the other day because the "mint" engine ended up being 67% and the car itself was perma-damaged pretty badly too. I'd welcome the ability to remove/repair perm 1 time on a newly looted Scav item (car, gun, engine, whatever) for a cost. I probably wouldn't use it much (if at all) but it would be nice to make that "UnShot" vehicle 100% in some way.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 5, 2015, 9:48 pm	Food never seems to be a problem... I'm getting low on water again but I havnt hunted any in about a year after a couple of lorrys came in.
Master TMO Posted Jul 10, 2015, 5:52 pm	Food is dead simple if you're willing to participate in events in SS. Seems at least half the events offer food as the prize.
Master TMO Posted Jul 13, 2015, 7:10 pm	Had a travel I ran away from offer me a Car Cannon ammo. It was weird. I ran away until I'd outrun all of their cars but one, and he suddenly tried to escape. I let him, and I had a chance to loot 1 food, 1 water, 1 CC ammo, and 1 molotov ammo. Unfortunately I was full up with cargo and couldn't make space for it.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 13, 2015, 7:33 pm	ThAt is pretty silly
*Boonwolf* Posted Jul 16, 2015, 6:09 am	Could make for good RP defector from the gang offers you tidings for not saying anything about it. And gets on radio faking death as they drive away.