theHumungous Posted Dec 8, 2014, 8:58 pm	I did a quick search, but didn't find too much. Is there a way to delve into the wasteland for foot encounters?
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 8, 2014, 9:54 pm	No. Unless you use a work around which involves driving out on a scout and abandoning your car. Into the Ruins was the planned content expansion which was to follow the addition of Morgan. Or possibly it and Morgan were conceptualized simultaneously and Sam did Morgan "first" as it involved less time (and had fewer hurdles to jump in implementation) to complete rather than make us wait longer. Following the introduction of Mogan Sam began thinking about DW2 (a real time arena PvP type thing as far as we know) after seeing the popularity of League of Legends and other similar competition games. His developing time then seems to have tilted towards doing that and then possibly using that engine (shiva?) for ITR since Torque seemed to be less suited to what he envisioned for ITR Then DW was greenlit on Steam and it was a rush to get it ready for release there. I'm not sure what the current mindset is of our creator right now but if I were to take a guess based on his behavioral patterns in prior years since I joined, he is spending much less time with DW during the holidays (ie: less forum replies, harder to contact, not seen as much online). ***and for all he does for us he deserves the time off for the holidays!*** (though he does still do Halloween and Christmas stuff for us) It is my hope that ITR is still coming but Sam is just one man and he has a number of "pans on the burners" so to speak.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 8, 2014, 10:16 pm	There is also a technique called Ped Scouting. It involves fighting Peds vs Cars. There are a few players very good at it (not me). You should ask for advice in the lobby and see if someone is on. The people I know of who are skilled Ped scouters would be Grimm Sykes and Necrotech. But I know there are others. Since I don't Ped Scout intentionally I'm not sure who the pro Ped Souters all are.
*Bastille* Posted Dec 8, 2014, 10:52 pm	ITR is on the far back shelf above cycles. You can ped scout (fill cars with peds and try find rares, taking them out with your peds) ... or drop your peds off after an event in the loot screen and walk home with them (to fight creatures and the like, risking taking radiation damage on the long walk home). I tend to ped scout when running drivers south to pick up looted vehicles to transport back to somerset for sale. I use mostly fresh recruits with rifles, crossbows (and shotguns to finish off vehicle occupants). SMGs are good if you can get them, but range on a rifle is much better and they are easy available. Terrain is something to think about when ped scouting. Splitting up the enemy can also be useful, counting ammo (on a Wardance for instance) as can using a decoy car. Important is watching and managing your stress levels. Stress levels of the occupants of a stationary car can rise very quickly. Moving the car slightly can help with this. Rockets and grenades can wipe you out quick, so thats another thing to think about. Hunting Rares is the name of the game. Near SS you can score some nice muscle cars, down south you can get some really nice stuff ped scouting.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 8, 2014, 10:53 pm	The last time Sam posted anything on this in the developers group was jan 2013... Even for Sam that is a long silence. I think we can safely say it is on a burner so far back its in another kitchen altogether.
Racing Robbie Posted Dec 9, 2014, 9:33 am	Last heard/discussed by Sam was the real time / one car / live action game Which I believe he was working on this in his spare time, hence his quietness on the forums.
*sam* Posted Dec 9, 2014, 11:54 am	Yeah, sorry fellas. Much as I love DW, it's honestly not an effective use of my time to spend many 100s/1000s of hours doing major new features for it. The reality is, DW is never going to be more successful than it already is, no matter what content I add. One thing I have pretty much turned my back on is mobile phone games. I want to make 'real' games for 'real' gamers, rather than little time-wasters for people sitting on the bus. I have been working on several prototype ideas.. actually too many. Two of them are direct spin-offs of DW. I'd love to be able to pick between these two, but I'm finding it very hard.. certainly trying to do both at the same time isn't the smartest idea: 1) A graphically-improved (3D) realtime multiplayer arena combat and scenario-based wilderness combat game.. with configurable vehicles, character skills, critical hits, etc. The initial focus is on LAN-based play rather than open/persistent world. With online arena leagues to come later. 2) A top-down 2D realtime MMO where you roam a massive landscape, trading, pirating, etc. The graphical simplicity means I could realistically hope to implement stuff that I never managed in DW - stuff like proper, attackable and player-configurable player-built camps, or even Into the Ruins. You'd control one car at a time, hence would be forced to team up with other people. Just log in, form teams, and head out into the desert. This is actually pretty close to one of the ways I originally conceived DW.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 9, 2014, 1:45 pm	Are either of these options turn based and allow control of multiple cars? If not, I won't get my hopes up.
Bill Butcher Cutting Posted Dec 9, 2014, 2:23 pm	Grimm Sykes said: Are either of these options turn based and allow control of multiple cars? If not, I won't get my hopes up. +1
*Bigspenner* Posted Dec 9, 2014, 6:53 pm	I like darkwind
theHumungous Posted Dec 9, 2014, 7:51 pm	I understand, and I'm glad to see that DW is STILL RUNNING. So, congrats on making a successful game that we love so dearly. The best thing you can do is just PICK one and go with it. Finishing one is better than working on two that never finish. Personally, I like the idea of top-down cars (though only controlling 1 car might be too limiting for people that hate to play with other people...). Anyway, thanks for responding!
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 9, 2014, 8:27 pm	Bill Butcher Cutting said: Grimm Sykes said: Are either of these options turn based and allow control of multiple cars? If not, I won't get my hopes up. +1 He did say 1 car to each.  So no we still must be saddened by that fact.  that's why so many major MMOs suck so bad and don't get any money from me. (that's whole single character B.S.  I miss "party" MMOs where you controlled groups.  As soon as graphics got pretty games went to 1 character "Avater" type POV.  And poof, no more me. THERE IS A REASON WHY DARKWIND IS THE ONLY GAME I PAY FOR ANYMORE!  Really it's almost the only game I PLAY anymore other than The Sims Sam's statement saddens me deeply that DW isn't worth the time.  Though from a financial point of view that's probably mostly accurate (Advertising and other stuff could revive it a little but not much better than Steam did, which was fleeting)
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 9, 2014, 8:29 pm	I prefer the option #2 (except I hate realtime, when the dogs need to take a dump, they don't care if im playing a game.  If I cant pause, the dump ends up all over the floor) however since most of us here are here for DW and ITR then our input probably means we would tell you to make something that ended up just as limited in the market as DW because that's what we love.
Groovelle Posted Dec 11, 2014, 3:09 am	I'd love a 2d top down apocalypse with camps, personally. Like Mexican Motor Mafia, fun little game.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 12, 2014, 7:43 pm	Might I suggest delegation of duties to help improve the game? I think a large part of why DW "is as big as it will ever be" is because bugs don't get fixed, and also, a core group of vocal Forum and Lobby trolls/griefers scaring people away, who then are never substantially punished. Basically, boiled down, a lack of attention and responsiveness, is the common denominator. "If you build it, they will come". Either that, or let's start talking about selling Darkwind to one or a group of us, Sam, so that it can become our headache, and we can see your idea through to fruition. Hell, contract a programmer to make the changes we seek, Sam. We're telling you how to make the game better, appeal to more people. But it seems many of the elements who influence you, are focused only on the idea of "thank you sir may I please have another" - making the game too hard to attract new players. Some new players stuck from Steam, it seems mostly ones who were fortunate enough to find a vet or group of vets under their wings, and show them the ropes. Before the griefers and trolls abused them away.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 12, 2014, 9:13 pm	And, pardon my frankness, Sam, but if you don't fix this game or sell it to somebody who will, we will create our own....and Darkwind will surely die off. Which none of us want, but if your choice is to leave Darkwind to die anyway, then, what option do you leave us? I know at least me, Crisp, Flame, maybe Boon, really aren't "gamers", per se - we really play only Darkwind, as far as MMOs. We love cars, we love shooting, etc. We enjoy the turn-based, multiple-car-option of Darkwind. For me, I would not want to play a real-time, single-car game, not as much as I presently play Darkwind.
*Awefense* Posted Dec 12, 2014, 10:17 pm	There is only one Darkwind! This game is awesome and needs more support...Sam! I've quit twice but I keep coming back. Darkwind is unique. There is no other game quite like it. The only thing that would even compare, is if someone took the DW model and created a game in its vein set in the Battletech Universe. ...And then I'd have to divide my time between them, lol. Whatever you do, just keep Darkwind's lights on! Awefense
Krakhedd Posted Dec 12, 2014, 10:38 pm	It's a catch-22 - Darkwind would be far more successful w/ a more involved devloper....however the developer doesn't have or otherwise doesn't want to invest the time to get there....agreed this is an awesome game, with tons of untapped potential too. That said...."needs more support" Sam said "no" above....."someone took the DW model" how about building one from the ground up with lessons learned from playing Darkwind.....
Krakhedd Posted Dec 12, 2014, 10:40 pm	And again I really hate to put it this way Sam, but if you won't do it, you're leaving the rest of us to do as we see fit......... BTW 2D top-down - see Auto, Grand Theft 1 & 2
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 12, 2014, 10:51 pm	Tried to post but the web site crashed. Sigh. Frustrating...
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 12, 2014, 10:54 pm	I looked at negative comments on steam, and there seems to be 3 basic groups, small ammount are 1, I cant figure out what to do or it won't run a good number are 2, eww it's turn based and a intelligent few 3, gave a review from the standpoint of someone who has tested and reviewed games... ...and unfortunately complained about the issues that I had commented would be a problem and should have been dealt with. the majority seemed to be #2, but that doesn't mean that making this real time will solve anything for the other 2 categories, and it will likely not gain much support from existing darkwind fans either. I agree that for darkwind, it may be; too little, too late. By now, maybe a fresh start is the best way to proceed.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 12, 2014, 10:54 pm	*StCrispin* said: Tried to post but the web site crashed. Sigh.  Frustrating... At least it's not the client crashing when you have an ambush spawn, forcing you to truce when you re-enter because it still thinks you're in the spawn phase (even though you can't move your vehicles any more).
Joel Autobaun Posted Dec 13, 2014, 12:11 am	I'll give you new content. Just say the word.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 13, 2014, 1:42 am	It's far more than just new content....
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 13, 2014, 1:56 am	-Meaningful PvP -Fully realized game world (not just "town with people who need nothing from you" -Player influenced towns that grow or decline based on players and NPC actions. -Dynamic economy (not just player influenced, but one that changes based on supply, demand, random events, world events, weather, town needs) -Weather and Day/Night cycles -Character (avatar or group type) RPG elements where you can do stuff as a character. Maybe "sims" style? -AI that plots against players or specific cars behind the scenes. legendary Car = "let hunt that" car. Or maybe "let's worship" that car. "Life" to the AI and not just "robot controlling a car in combat" And more.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 13, 2014, 2:06 am	To say DW will never be more successful is like saying Transformers were a failure. The original Transformers were a failure! What did the company do? They gave up and sold it to a big company and thought they pulled one over on the corporate giant! The corporate giant then began Peripheral marketing, using another product which turned a profit (in this case a TV show) to advertise a failed product. Breathing life into it. Now look... 30 years later is it? And there are Multi-Million Dollar movies. A dozen spin off TV shows, Toys about the Wazoo (still a failure compared to the peripheral items but still)... And all this because the original creator gave up. I've suggested a half dozen peripheral marketing ideas to breath life into DW. But promoting it isn't wise when the new blood comes in and (a) can't figure out how to play, (b) finds the graphics dated, (c) sees the content involves Grind Races, Grind Scouts, Grind Arena. And asks "where is the RPG part? Can I go out on foot? Can I free roam? Are there quests? What's the end game? Oh end game is Grind another town?" And then there is the rest of the new player complaints about trolls or bugs which may or may not be accurate.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 13, 2014, 5:35 am	There's quite a few vehicular combat games on the PC, and they are all real time. Sam is one man trying to do a game by himself, and he has a niche because there are no other turn based vehicular combat games right now. Why try to compete in a market where there's competing products that do the same thing. (with more on the way from names like Sega) Top down with graphics like the original GTA would be cool, sort of like auto duel in a open world. Having 1 vehicle, with multiple disposable crewmen, really takes away from the depth of the darkwind experience. Without that personality to the game, it would be much like playing a phone app game to kill time on the commute to work/school.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 13, 2014, 8:52 am	If I, for one, wanted to play real-time or any format other than Darkwind, I would be playing them....I enjoy the format, enjoy it being on PC....lots of room for change and growth, to make it into a game for millions, not the 100 or so regularly active....but it needs attention, and attention requires time....
*Boonwolf* Posted Dec 13, 2014, 3:08 pm	Most of the people who play this sort of game ant 12 years old and are not able to devote full attention. We like the option to pause/timeout or log out immediately to take care of Family matters. Can't happen in real time games and one of the reasons why I play. I have always viewed DW as a Bata of a much larger and in depth masterpiece of a game.
Magus Posted Dec 14, 2014, 2:16 am	Sam how much would you sell the game for?
*goat starer* Posted Dec 14, 2014, 2:29 am	It's great that this small select group can articulate why they love the game, even if their reasons do not always agree. That said Sam has already made this game. Expecting that he will either spend his life recreating it or that he has some obligation to keep making things for us...rather than finding new ideas and markets is plain silly. I say let him develop his new things and if you like them then play them. You can always stay here and play this. It's not like anyone is threatening to change this game into something else. We are talking about new projects.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 14, 2014, 2:49 am	Perhaps remove the "hype" blurb review thing that claims the game receives "frequent content injections" ? Then no one can legitimately claim content should be frequently added to the game... Personally I think if we want the completed version of the larger game for which all we have is the tactical combat modual and an access tool to initiate the encounters, then we should just start an LLC, fund the project, and just do it ourselves. Em and I plan to install a server in our home once she completes her programming degree, perhaps sooner. So maybe in a couple years we could have inexpensive options available to us to do that.
Magus Posted Dec 14, 2014, 3:08 am	I think the best idea I can come up with is Sam sells or partners with Steve Jackson Games to make Car Wars Online. It would be almost identical to dark-wind but with different settings and a couple other little tweaks that would accomplish the turn based online world of futuristic combat in cars or on foot.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 14, 2014, 3:39 am	large parts of the car wars fan base have already found the game through Jimmy or posting on war gaming sites. For signing away loads of licence rights to Jackson you might get a brief steam like surge. To what end? Just play and enjoy the game as it is and accept that it is a finite appeal game that, at 9 years old, has caned it's potential player pool hard. And the idea that StCrackpot might host it made laugh so hard some wee came out. Been a rough night. Thanks for the amusement.
Bill Butcher Cutting Posted Dec 14, 2014, 6:38 am	goat starer said: And the idea that StCrackpot might host it made laugh so hard some wee came out. Been a rough night. Thanks for the amusement. Play nice!
Bill Butcher Cutting Posted Dec 14, 2014, 6:43 am	I really like this game and would like to see it further developed but it doesn't look like that will happen so just enjoy it for today. Eventually, someone will improve on this idea and make it a better vision of what some of us want. That will be a sad day as we will leave this game behind to play the better version. St. Crisp, if that person is you then I salute you now!
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 14, 2014, 7:01 am	Im a designer and a marketer, not a programmer. But with the right team who knows. I really need to dig out the notes from when Rude and I were discussing a Pen and Paper version.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 14, 2014, 7:22 am	*StCrispin* said:   I really need to dig out the notes from when Rude and I were discussing a Pen and Paper version. That sounds like the improvement everyone is waiting for. Fetch my crayons.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 14, 2014, 7:56 am	actually we hadn't planned any color art other than the cover, which was to be artistprint from oils. But if you like coloring, maybe a color map of America. Roadwar 2000 + a few years. I loved that game despite how horribly basic and crummy it would be now a days. 2 Rank A, 15 Rank B, 30 Rank C fire! 21 hits! Enemy fires. 7 Hits! Bah
*goat starer* Posted Dec 14, 2014, 11:44 am	America is easy. We just colour it red like all the rest of the empire.
Tallus Posted Dec 14, 2014, 2:11 pm	The discussion raises an interesting question: what would be the challenges and opportunities involved with running an open-source mmo? Not that I necessarily envision that happening with the bunch of ip that is dark wind, but it's a really interesting question that arises when you have a game with this kind of fanbase.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 14, 2014, 5:14 pm	I really don't see SJC wanting to get involved with a game based on a engine that was obsolete over a decade ago. The game can't just replace the engine without a rewrite, and if that happened, it's not dark-wind anymore, so no partnership would be needed. As far as buying the rights to this game from sam, I looked into this years ago and had some programers willing to look at options. The decision was that the effort to update the engine, or to fix the bugs, either one alone, would be more work then starting from scratch. In short if we want a turn based game of car wars in a more involved open world, the only solution is to either do it ourselves or pay someone to do it. I think sam's made it clear he doesn't want to be that man, doesn't want to partner with anyone, and doesn't have the time. I'm not putting down Sam in any way. I'm just saying that if this is what we want, we are barking up the wrong tree. Maybe we can make a kickstarter project to locate a programming team AND fund them.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 14, 2014, 5:56 pm	goat starer said: And the idea that StCrackpot might host it made laugh so hard some wee came out. Been a rough night. Thanks for the amusement. A prime example of a Darkwind-limiting "factor" right here, kids
Krakhedd Posted Dec 14, 2014, 5:58 pm	goat starer said: America is easy. We just colour it red like all the rest of the empire. Yeah cuz this isn't offensive, either
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 14, 2014, 6:15 pm	I dunno about that, colorado sure looked green to me
*goat starer* Posted Dec 14, 2014, 7:42 pm	Krakhedd said: goat starer said: America is easy. We just colour it red like all the rest of the empire. Yeah cuz this isn't offensive, either How's that offensive? I think its a fairly well established fact that America is a rebellious British colony. The fact that we allow the current state of affairs to persist speaks only of British manners. Just one more red area on a global map of the empire on which the sun never sets.
Bill Butcher Cutting Posted Dec 14, 2014, 8:28 pm	goat starer said: Krakhedd said: goat starer said: America is easy. We just colour it red like all the rest of the empire. Yeah cuz this isn't offensive, either How's that offensive? I think its a fairly well established fact that America is a rebellious British colony. The fact that we allow the current state of affairs to persist speaks only of British manners. Just one more red area on a global map of the empire on which the sun never sets. Watch it Goat. I'm a decedent of those revolutionaries that overthrew the tyranny of British empire, only to have it form it's own brand of tyranny, but, eh, we learned from the best. As a matter of fact, I believe we've saved the British bacon a few times in past couple world wars through our 'special' relationship. As for the government, ours is probably the worst form of government that ever existed except for all the others that have ever been tried. (All hail WC!) To add insult to injury, I'm also from Texas, where every man, woman and most of their children and pets own at least one gun so if the British ever want to go for round three, I hear California is easy pickings...
*goat starer* Posted Dec 14, 2014, 8:45 pm	That's a rather generous assessmet of arriving late for a few wars after other people have done all the work... And then charging people you already.owe several hundred years of back taxes to for the pribiledge of letting you have a go. Just pay your taxes and we can.put this embarrassing rebellion behind us. In fact I think the only war you helped us win was the war of independence... The British would have lost that one... But as it was fought by British colonists against the British then we still hada British winner! God Save the Queen!
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 14, 2014, 9:21 pm	goat starer said: America is easy. We just colour it red like all the rest of the empire. Other than "color it red" having the meaning of killing everyone...  That's a good idea.  It would lend to the starkness of a wastelandic future.  A monochromatic theme to the overall design.  I've never been a fan of that stylistic approach but it could work. We'd also have to color England and Europe red as well for the Roadwar: Europa expansion.  to keep the overall theme.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 14, 2014, 9:34 pm	*StCrispin* said: goat starer said: America is easy. We just colour it red like all the rest of the empire. Other than "color it red" having the meaning of killing everyone...  That's a good idea.  It would lend to the starkness of a wastelandic future.  A monochromatic theme to the overall design.  I've never been a fan of that stylistic approach but it could work. We'd also have to color England and Europe red as well for the Roadwar: Europa expansion.  to keep the overall theme. x2 to this
Krakhedd Posted Dec 14, 2014, 9:35 pm	goat starer said: That's a rather generous assessmet of arriving late for a few wars after other people have done all the work... And then charging people you already.owe several hundred years of back taxes to for the pribiledge of letting you have a go. Just pay your taxes and we can.put this embarrassing rebellion behind us. In fact I think the only war you helped us win was the war of independence... The British would have lost that one... But as it was fought by British colonists against the British then we still hada British winner! God Save the Queen! Embarrassed you couldn't win on your own without our help? That's OK Goat cuz your opinions, apart from their repeated and flagrant habits to violate the Terms of Service, mean nothing to me.
Bill Butcher Cutting Posted Dec 14, 2014, 10:28 pm	Krakhedd said: goat starer said: That's a rather generous assessmet of arriving late for a few wars after other people have done all the work... And then charging people you already.owe several hundred years of back taxes to for the pribiledge of letting you have a go. Just pay your taxes and we can.put this embarrassing rebellion behind us. In fact I think the only war you helped us win was the war of independence... The British would have lost that one... But as it was fought by British colonists against the British then we still hada British winner! God Save the Queen! Embarrassed you couldn't win on your own without our help? That's OK Goat cuz your opinions, apart from their repeated and flagrant habits to violate the Terms of Service, mean nothing to me. Can we please keep it fun and friendly?
*goat starer* Posted Dec 15, 2014, 11:55 am	*StCrispin* said: goat starer said: America is easy. We just colour it red like all the rest of the empire. Other than "color it red" having the meaning of killing everyone...  That's a good idea.  It would lend to the starkness of a wastelandic future.  A monochromatic theme to the overall design.  I've never been a fan of that stylistic approach but it could work. We'd also have to color England and Europe red as well for the Roadwar: Europa expansion.  to keep the overall theme. Once again your lack of knowledge / education is shocking. The standard maps of the world used until the mid 20th century showed the British empire as coloured red. Will file that under your racist posting, misunderstanding cultural references and general lack of any knowledge of the world outside of your own head. You are a plonker... And when krakk is aligning himself with you (because some time ago I.told him calling yourself by a drug reference and constantly posting about drugs in the lobby was immature) you should be taking a look at what you are saying and think "is this really.someone I want to he associated with".
ZomBPir8Ninja Posted Dec 15, 2014, 12:36 pm	Why must you derail every forum post into unrelated nonsense?
*goat starer* Posted Dec 15, 2014, 1:20 pm	Because.... It's fun watching certain people suffer inevitable apoplectic fits and sense of humour failures The nonsense makes more sense than most of the serious stuff This one was answered by Sam several pages back... Any further discussion is just puffery It's fun (i may have said that but its,hard to overemphasise)
Racing Robbie Posted Dec 15, 2014, 1:40 pm	goat starer said: Once again your lack of knowledge / education is shocking. The standard maps of the world used until the mid 20th century showed the British empire as coloured red. To be honest mate I think that is on the harsh side – not everyone will be aware of that fact. The way the humble world map has been used for propaganda over the years is as scary as it is interesting – going from the projection used to draw the map and way it distorts the shapes of countries, and thorough the way colours are used for the various blocks. Right through to the outrageous propaganda from the many different wars. Added to the fact that different countries use different layouts, like having their own country shown as the centre of the map - I have a great kid’s atlas, which my little girl loves, but when you look at it you would believe that Scandinavian was the centre of the known world :-) So I would suggest that is one is a cultural difference rather than anything else – I’m not 100% sure if this is right but I have a feeling that a number of maps produced during the cold war showed the USSR in red.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 15, 2014, 1:42 pm	*StCrispin* said: Perhaps remove the "hype" blurb review thing that claims the game receives "frequent content injections" ?  Then no one can legitimately claim content should be frequently added to the game.at. It's not hype blurb. Over its history there have been many many content injections... The main difference is that the player base has become increasingly reactionary. The last few,introduced had to be reversed because of the inevitable whinging. If I were Sam I wouldn't be adding new content.. its not worth the effort for the tail end of a game and you can bet your cotton socks,that if into the ruins was introduced it would kill someone's players and spark another round of childish complaints. Yet even then Sam still puts content in. We are looking at a Christmas event... There were recently Halloween events. Frankly we get a lot more than we deserve.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 15, 2014, 1:44 pm	Racing Robbie said: goat starer said: Once again your lack of knowledge / education is shocking. The standard maps of the world used until the mid 20th century showed the British empire as coloured red. To be honest mate I think that is on the harsh side – not everyone will be aware of that fact. The way the humble world map has been used for propaganda over the years is as scary as it is interesting – going from the projection used to draw the map and way it distorts the shapes of countries, and thorough the way colours are used for the various blocks. Right through to the outrageous propaganda from the many different wars. Added to the fact that different countries use different layouts, like having their own country shown as the centre of the map - I have a great kid’s atlas, which my little girl loves, but when you look at it you would believe that Scandinavian was the centre of the known world :-) So I would suggest that is one is a cultural difference rather than anything else – I’m not 100% sure if this is right but I have a feeling that a number of maps produced during the cold war showed the USSR in red. Probably British...we controlled the place through philby, blunt et al
Krakhedd Posted Dec 15, 2014, 4:30 pm	goat starer said: You are a plonker... And when krakk is aligning himself with you (because some time ago I.told him calling yourself by a drug reference and constantly posting about drugs in the lobby was immature) you should be taking a look at what you are saying and think "is this really.someone I want to he associated with". I didn't "align" myself, I just take strong exception to the accomodations afforded you by the lack of your banning. And, as stated in the lobby that day you made an unsolicited attack upon me, it's not a direct drug reference, it's a handle I have used for over 20 years.  Speaks more to my mindset as typically happy-go-lucky and a bit crazy, than it is a reference to crack cocaine. Immaturity?  Repeated personal attacks and name-calling are sure signs of that, Goat. Grow up.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 15, 2014, 4:30 pm	ZomBPir8Ninja said: Why must you derail every forum post into unrelated nonsense? ....and I agree with an Alley member?  Sheesh.  Darkwind is in dark days, indeed.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 15, 2014, 5:02 pm	to someone new, all the bickering looks to them like; oh so here's why nothing gets fixed and why this game is incomplete. I know it is complete but I said someone new gets this opinion, not me. I'm just going by what i seen posted on steam.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 15, 2014, 5:13 pm	Krakhedd said: goat starer said: You are a plonker... And when krakk is aligning himself with you (because some time ago I.told him calling yourself by a drug reference and constantly posting about drugs in the lobby was immature) you should be taking a look at what you are saying and think "is this really.someone I want to he associated with". I didn't "align" myself, I just take strong exception to the accomodations afforded you by the lack of your banning. And, as stated in the lobby that day you made an unsolicited attack upon me, it's not a direct drug reference, it's a handle I have used for over 20 years.  Speaks more to my mindset as typically happy-go-lucky and a bit crazy, than it is a reference to crack cocaine. Immaturity?  Repeated personal attacks and name-calling are sure signs of that, Goat. Grow up. Drug references and constantly posting about drugs in the lobby... That is exactly the sort of thing that puts people, especially grown ups, off when they log in. Back in the day you would have felt completely out of place.. But we do have a lot more kids in the game these days. The only 'attack' you have suffered is being called out as a bit of an immature chap. If that upsets you I'm very sorry. Since then you follow me round the forums like a lost soul repeating the constant mantra that you don't care what I think... But replying to my every post... That's a little inconsistent. I don't care about your opinions and therefore I generally ignore you... And will go back to doing so forthwith.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 15, 2014, 5:17 pm	Grimm Sykes said: to someone new, all the bickering looks to them like; oh so here's why nothing gets fixed and why this game is incomplete. I know it is complete but I said someone new gets this opinion, not me. I'm just going by what i seen posted on steam. There has been bickering over these things since day one... Have look back at the darth / Ivan incident.. That was a classic. In a sense you are right that the game is incomplete.. But it is adequately complete to keep people here for 7 or 8 years so I'm not sure that the bugs are that big an issue. I suffer from a raft of connection issues these days but keep playing because this game is great... I think it is as great as it's going to be though.
*sam* Posted Dec 15, 2014, 6:11 pm	Krakhedd said: I think a large part of why DW "is as big as it will ever be" is because bugs don't get fixed .. Basically, boiled down, a lack of attention and responsiveness, is the common denominator.  "If you build it, they will come". BS. I spent years being extremely responsive and giving DW my almost exclusive attention. Krakhedd said: Hell, contract a programmer to make the changes we seek, Sam. We're telling you how to make the game better, appeal to more people You're telling me how to make the game better etc.. but without regard to the amount of effort involved and the potential reward for that effort, it makes no sense. You think I haven't previously considered all of these things and more? Krakhedd said: Either that, or let's start talking about selling Darkwind to one or a group of us, Sam, so that it can become our headache, and we can see your idea through to fruition. Make me an offer
*sam* Posted Dec 15, 2014, 6:21 pm	Grimm Sykes said: In short if we want a turn based game of car wars in a more involved open world, the only solution is to either do it ourselves or pay someone to do it. I think sam's made it clear he doesn't want to be that man, doesn't want to partner with anyone, and doesn't have the time. I'd be delighted to do it if you wanted to pay me  :-) (I agree with your diagnosis that the only way forward would be a complete re-write, by the way).
Krakhedd Posted Dec 15, 2014, 6:46 pm	goat starer said: Krakhedd said: goat starer said: You are a plonker... And when krakk is aligning himself with you (because some time ago I.told him calling yourself by a drug reference and constantly posting about drugs in the lobby was immature) you should be taking a look at what you are saying and think "is this really.someone I want to he associated with". I didn't "align" myself, I just take strong exception to the accomodations afforded you by the lack of your banning. And, as stated in the lobby that day you made an unsolicited attack upon me, it's not a direct drug reference, it's a handle I have used for over 20 years.  Speaks more to my mindset as typically happy-go-lucky and a bit crazy, than it is a reference to crack cocaine. Immaturity?  Repeated personal attacks and name-calling are sure signs of that, Goat. Grow up. Drug references and constantly posting about drugs in the lobby... That is exactly the sort of thing that puts people, especially grown ups, off when they log in. Back in the day you would have felt completely out of place.. But we do have a lot more kids in the game these days. The only 'attack' you have suffered is being called out as a bit of an immature chap. If that upsets you I'm very sorry. Since then you follow me round the forums like a lost soul repeating the constant mantra that you don't care what I think... But replying to my every post... That's a little inconsistent. I don't care about your opinions and therefore I generally ignore you... And will go back to doing so forthwith. Lol paranoid much?  I do not troll the forums, sorry.....I think that's called "displacement" when you point the finger at somebody else for behavior you, yourself, are guilty of.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 15, 2014, 8:20 pm	*sam* said: Krakhedd said: I think a large part of why DW "is as big as it will ever be" is because bugs don't get fixed .. Basically, boiled down, a lack of attention and responsiveness, is the common denominator.  "If you build it, they will come". BS. I spent years being extremely responsive and giving DW my almost exclusive attention. Krakhedd said: Hell, contract a programmer to make the changes we seek, Sam. We're telling you how to make the game better, appeal to more people You're telling me how to make the game better etc.. but without regard to the amount of effort involved and the potential reward for that effort, it makes no sense. You think I haven't previously considered all of these things and more? Krakhedd said: Either that, or let's start talking about selling Darkwind to one or a group of us, Sam, so that it can become our headache, and we can see your idea through to fruition. Make me an offer  After 7 years of failing quotes I finally found today that it was always because I had accidentally unchecked the format mbcode? Box Better late than never Put the game up for auction in dexters Sam!
*sam* Posted Dec 15, 2014, 8:21 pm	Quote: After 7 years of failing quotes I finally found today that it was always because I had accidentally unchecked the format mbcode? Box Muahaha, good catch!
Krakhedd Posted Dec 15, 2014, 10:52 pm	Sam, I didn't mean to disrespect or otherwise demean/undervalue your work so far.  I know the game has been around a great deal longer than I have been active. I really just want to light a fire under your ass.  I know this is a game/concept/idea about which you were once passionate, and I am mostly trying to re-ignite your passion, or at least, express and re-iterate the dedication of the player base to helping out in moving forward. Could you imagine what the game would be like if there were 10x the active player base?  100x?  What if people started rocking clothing with a Darkwind-approved (and, licensed) logo?  A mug fashioned to look like a piston from the Apocalypse, emblazoned with a logo? I don't know that a "paper game" would be viable, much less, popular, in a world that has nearly-full integration of the Internet into their daily lives.  But I do know that gamers will invest in a game they love. It's just that Darkwind, in its current iteration and environment, is too limited in its appeal.    I got into it because I'm a gearhead, and then you put guns on cars....and the skilling element....and perma-everything, from lost limbs (chromes for bionic replacements would be awesome though, as has been discussed in other forum threads), to chassis damage, to death, etc. Point is, you have a strong foundation with a dedicated player base.  Many of us - especially the people with whom I associate - are all-too-happy to give noobs a helping hand, to teach them, foster them.  Like a cradle in the crucible of post-apocalyptic Earth.  We are happy to expand the game, to provide free brainstorming for improvements and direction.  We interact with noobs, try to tell them the flaws are worth the overall experience, that there really is NO other game like this one.  I think we all want to see Darkwind, as well as Sam Redfern, thrive.  At least, I do.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 16, 2014, 2:58 am	Sam, the peripheral marketing is key to creating supporting income. I've said this now for a couple years. I Even offered about a 1/2 dozen suggestions. I didn't go forward with any of them, as you showed no interest in promoting the game (at that time). Then Steam greenlit it and forced you back into it and a number of items which we had asked previously to be adjusted or modified or whatnot became major issues for players who didn't have the patience for them. Now those things don't matter as much since the impatient players left. Sad to see the numbers decline but it's probably left a better group of players even if that was at the cost of your "reward". I'm not sure that it would have been different or not, if everything that was "wrong" for their expectations was "right". Some items seen as "wrong": No free roam No strategic map No "avatar" (think WoW) type RPG environments No "battlefields" with PvP rewards for elite gear We gained a few but even the returning old timers promptly left again. I see less vets now than before steam. (With total number playing still being the same as pre-steam but now it's 60% new blood) As for the debate about political colors: the UN and NATO both have England's official political color as BLUE. The U.S. Used to be Green but is now also Blue as of the change about 10 years ago. RED is the official color of communist aligned nations such as Russia, China, N Korea, etc... Also loosely used to denote Terrorists and Hostile Opposing Forces on a situation map (not all Opposing Forces, however, are hostile). You tend to forget, when making statements that you believe to be fact, that some people have worked in a field far beyond your imagination.
*Bastille* Posted Dec 16, 2014, 5:05 am	*StCrispin* said: Some items seen as "wrong": No free roam No strategic map No "avatar" (think WoW) type RPG environments No "battlefields" with PvP rewards for elite gear I find these points a problem when playing The Sims, also. Do you guys work for Steve Jackson?
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 16, 2014, 6:57 am	*Bastille* said: *StCrispin* said: Some items seen as "wrong": No free roam No strategic map No "avatar" (think WoW) type RPG environments No "battlefields" with PvP rewards for elite gear I find these points a problem when playing The Sims, also. Do you guys work for Steve Jackson? ha ha.  you know Steve Jackson stole one of my design ideas... So, no I hate the guy. Last I checked The Sims wasn't an MMORPG.  well, they made a Sims MMO but it apparently failed.  I never even knew it came out... A lot of Steamies mentioned those items.  I agree with them in part.  I think a strategic map with your gang icons on the map would be more understandable to most gamers.  Something like a cross between Roadwar 2000 (or Roadwar: Europa) and Europa Universalis / Sengoku / Total War 2 / Thirty Kingdoms would be interesting.
*sam* Posted Dec 16, 2014, 11:22 am	Krakhedd said: I really just want to light a fire under your ass.  I know this is a game/concept/idea about which you were once passionate, and I am mostly trying to re-ignite your passion, or at least, express and re-iterate the dedication of the player base to helping out in moving forward. Could you imagine what the game would be like if there were 10x the active player base?  100x?  What if people started rocking clothing with a Darkwind-approved (and, licensed) logo?  A mug fashioned to look like a piston from the Apocalypse, emblazoned with a logo? Yes of course, that would all be cool. I spent every spare moment working hard at it, between 2006 and about 2011 - 6 years of trying different things and taking people's advice about what would bring the big breakthrough. The thing is, ideas are cheap - but implementing them takes hundreds of hours. I am still passionate about the idea: turn-based persistent-world car combat is a great idea. But as goat pointed out, that doesn't mean I want to spend my whole life doing it when the evidence is that it's not going to be a big success. (Don't get me wrong, DW has earned reasonable money, and has brought me numerous cool memories, so I don't regret it at all). Krakhedd said: Point is, you have a strong foundation with a dedicated player base.  Many of us - especially the people with whom I associate - are all-too-happy to give noobs a helping hand, to teach them, foster them.  Like a cradle in the crucible of post-apocalyptic Earth.  We are happy to expand the game, to provide free brainstorming for improvements and direction.  We interact with noobs, try to tell them the flaws are worth the overall experience, that there really is NO other game like this one.  I think we all want to see Darkwind, as well as Sam Redfern, thrive.  At least, I do. Yes, I know that - and I appreciate it  :-)
*sam* Posted Dec 16, 2014, 11:26 am	*StCrispin* said: Sam, the peripheral marketing is key to creating supporting income.  I've said this now for a couple years.  I Even offered about a 1/2 dozen suggestions.  I didn't go forward with any of them, as you showed no interest in promoting the game (at that time). I have no interest in investing countless hours and $ in something that I believe will nett me a loss, that's true. *StCrispin* said: Some items seen as "wrong": No free roam No strategic map No "avatar" (think WoW) type RPG environments No "battlefields" with PvP rewards for elite gear I'm not disagreeing with these, but it takes you 30 minutes to think about them, and me 1000 hours to implement them. And then they make little difference. I have implemented big 'game changers' before, with huge amounts of effort:  playback recordings, DW:Tactical, DW:Scav. To those who proposed the idea, the result is a shrug of the shoulders and a 'hey, that didn't work'. To me, it's a massive investment of time wasted.
Racing Robbie Posted Dec 16, 2014, 12:41 pm	I have been thinking along the lines that it’s Evan that is MMO part and that is a database holding all the details of the gangs, gangers, cars, events etc. The actual front ends with which you interact with this – at the current time the website and client (will use client to mean these) – are interchangeable. Maybe then this could be the way forward, an Evan franchise system where each client interacts with the database and affects the world. The results are then seen in all the clients. What got me thinking this way was Sam’s single car RT game – if it could be linked to the league systems in Evan and then all results will count towards the final results. I suppose that the web site would be the starting point for everything and people would take the route that interested them, either the turn based or the real time ways. Then if it got popular enough Sam could sell access to Evan (database) for third party developers to produce their own clients. Only a very rough idea but could be a way that Evan can move forward and Sam get to enjoy his programming ;-) PS This is just an idea, the actual mechanics of how it all would work; only a hazy guessed at code……
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 16, 2014, 5:02 pm	*sam* said: Krakhedd said: I think a large part of why DW "is as big as it will ever be" is because bugs don't get fixed .. Basically, boiled down, a lack of attention and responsiveness, is the common denominator.  "If you build it, they will come". BS. I spent years being extremely responsive and giving DW my almost exclusive attention. Sam most the bugs I post never get dealt with (lack of responsiveness), and the ones that do, you only seem to deal with the symptoms not the cause. example, guy complained how i was able to sell 100 of a item that I only owned one of and this causes some exploits to be opened. instead of fixing the exploit, you limited sale of items to 20. This doesn't fix the issue and gives the impression that the exploit is ok if you only do 20 at a time instead of 100. (lack of attention). and by the way, there's problems with all the new lobby features, but since bugs aren't being addressed, i see no reason to report them anymore. Many things that are fixed, go wrong again, or we never know it got fixed cause you never tell anyone or post detailed update information. You can't expect to retain new players, when they are constantly encountering bugs, and when they look at the forums they see it's been a issue and never got fixed.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 16, 2014, 5:20 pm	Grimm Sykes said: *sam* said: Krakhedd said: I think a large part of why DW "is as big as it will ever be" is because bugs don't get fixed .. Basically, boiled down, a lack of attention and responsiveness, is the common denominator.  "If you build it, they will come". BS. I spent years being extremely responsive and giving DW my almost exclusive attention. Sam most the bugs I post never get dealt with (lack of responsiveness), and the ones that do, you only seem to deal with the symptoms not the cause. example, guy complained how i was able to sell 100 of a item that I only owned one of and this causes some exploits to be opened. instead of fixing the exploit, you limited sale of items to 20. This doesn't fix the issue and gives the impression that the exploit is ok if you only do 20 at a time instead of 100. (lack of attention). and by the way, there's problems with all the new lobby features, but since bugs aren't being addressed, i see no reason to report them anymore. Many things that are fixed, go wrong again, or we never know it got fixed cause you never tell anyone or post detailed update information. You can't expect to retain new players, when they are constantly encountering bugs, and when they look at the forums they see it's been a issue and never got fixed. He retained you... Over the years people have played this game for astonishingly long periods. And lots of us really don't encounter that many bugs. Barring a few jumping buzzers and bugged events... And a lorry with 8 tyres... It's just not that bad. None of the bugs I have encountered make it unplayable or uenjoyable. Let's face it.. Most of the players for whom this game works have found it or are grown ups and don't have time for it. It's not a game sitting waiting for a market to find it.. It's a niche game that has effectively exploited that niche and is now in the decline phase of its product lifecycle. Products at that phase either need complete reinvention or a 'mark2'' neither of which are very likely to succeed in such a small niche. I'm sure Sam would happily sell the game to a serious buyer willing to have a go at reinvention / relaunch but I can't imagine that anyone with those resources would also have the lack of nouse to think it's a viable proposition.
*sam* Posted Dec 16, 2014, 5:29 pm	Grimm Sykes said: *sam* said: Krakhedd said: I think a large part of why DW "is as big as it will ever be" is because bugs don't get fixed .. Basically, boiled down, a lack of attention and responsiveness, is the common denominator.  "If you build it, they will come". BS. I spent years being extremely responsive and giving DW my almost exclusive attention. Sam most the bugs I post never get dealt with (lack of responsiveness), and the ones that do, you only seem to deal with the symptoms not the cause. example, guy complained how i was able to sell 100 of a item that I only owned one of and this causes some exploits to be opened. instead of fixing the exploit, you limited sale of items to 20. This doesn't fix the issue and gives the impression that the exploit is ok if you only do 20 at a time instead of 100. (lack of Yes, in the last few years. I was talking about 2006-2011 approx, during which I ploughed somewhere between 5000 and 10000 hours into the game, much of which was dealing with issues as well as making new features. BTW you cannot sell items you don't own, nor ever could you. There has never been an exploit along these lines. You can advertise for sale more than you own, but you sure can't sell em
*goat starer* Posted Dec 16, 2014, 5:33 pm	Which if anyone cares to check is the equivalent of a full time job working 220 days a year.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 16, 2014, 6:03 pm	sam I explained this to you in detail, and yes there is. i put up 20 4L engines at 100%. for $25000 i put up 20 0% engines for $1000, and i only own 1 when a player buys the 0% engine it gives them a 100% engine, and now i only have 19 100% engines up. but the person paid me $25000 they didnt want to pay not the 1000% they thought they were paying and they got the 100% engine not the 0% one. this was done with 100 of each item and you were told all about it, your response was to limit sales to 20 of a item, which didnt address anything that was pointed out, and left the issue as it was, but now it's limited to 20 of a item not 100. and you can still list more of a item then you own. so what was the point of limiting things to 20? it's got nothing to do with the problem that was coming up, and it makes selling supplies of weapons at camps difficult when limited to 20. If i run 130 gattling guns out to a camp, i have to place 20 up, wait for the manager to buy them, then put up 20 more, etc 7 times. The "fix" to a limit of 20 didn't fix anything, it just made transactions more annoying. for for the timeline of fixing bugs, I was referring to the steam release, since that's when the players who came in and stated the sentiments that i listed, happened. This is the perspective my post was in.
Tallus Posted Dec 16, 2014, 6:28 pm	I'd leave aside the issue of bugs-- a big issue, certainly, but limited: the game runs, the engine doesn't crash, and players can enjoy content. The biggest challenge I see is how to continue generating content appropriate to the fictional and software environment... And how to make clear a rationale for the limits on the environment. Thing is, the instanced-- in wow terms-- point to point world basically works for a world of cars: there is a reason we don't see much traffic, and cars are basically made to go from point a to point b along roads... The real question is not so much about engines, but rather how to keep building interesting content and gameplay within that structure, and how to remove impediments to players enjoying that content-- e.g. Limitations on scale of trading.
PvtParty Posted Dec 16, 2014, 6:41 pm	*StCrispin* said: As for the debate about political colors: the UN and NATO both have England's official political color as BLUE.  The U.S. Used to be Green but is now also Blue as of the change about 10 years ago.  RED is the official color of communist aligned nations such as Russia, China, N Korea, etc...  Also loosely used to denote Terrorists and Hostile Opposing Forces on a situation map (not all Opposing Forces, however, are hostile).  You tend to forget, when making statements that you believe to be fact, that some people have worked in a field far beyond your imagination. I always thought of it as pink rather than red, but I've just found an explanation of that HERE
ZomBPir8Ninja Posted Dec 16, 2014, 6:46 pm	PvtParty said: I always thought of it as pink rather than red, but I've just found an explanation of that HERE Sam, I'm certain you have an army of volunteers ready to help.  We just need the word.  Pick a platform and say, "Go."  DW2 doesn't have to be another 1-man operation. I don't even want to paid, I just want to help build it so I can play it.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 16, 2014, 6:49 pm	ZomBPir8Ninja said: PvtParty said: I always thought of it as pink rather than red, but I've just found an explanation of that HERE Sam, I'm certain you have an army of volunteers ready to help.  We just need the word.  Pick a platform and say, "Go."  DW2 doesn't have to be another 1-man operation. I don't even want to paid, I just want to help build it so I can play it. Robbie's comments on Page 4 are awesome - ZomB's comment here, I totally agree....Hell if you really want to "pay" us, give us shares in Darkwind or something.....but ZomB's comments here, sums up my general perspective, and I think many others' here, as well
Krakhedd Posted Dec 16, 2014, 7:07 pm	I would also like to humbly submit my perspective that a big driver for why Darkwind is such a "small niche game", is that the ideas for "improvement" have been driven by a small core of players for whom there is benefit/appeal. There is not a greater appeal for the majority of the changes I have seen introduced, and certainly, not for noobs, as the majority of them take a game w/ an outrightly obsolete game engine, with limited appeal, and make the game extremely difficult for new players. Combined with the denial of bugs, failure to address bugs, etc....who wants to be a part of something that appears to be dying or already dead? Sam, let us help. I don't code but I have a keen business mind and I would like to think I have a feel for what would work with a larger player base. I am a good brainstormer and, in general, "idea man", very creative. Hell, ya want some new music? I will compose some for us. That's how I may directly contribute. It would be uber-gnarly to find a way to integrate a new, RT-based game, within the same universe as the existing game structure. I would implore you to steer clear of top-down though. And honestly, I don't know that I would play a RT iteration anyway, the turn-based format is a really strong point for Darkwind, imo.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 16, 2014, 7:39 pm	PvtParty said: *StCrispin* said: As for the debate about political colors: the UN and NATO both have England's official political color as BLUE.  The U.S. Used to be Green but is now also Blue as of the change about 10 years ago.  RED is the official color of communist aligned nations such as Russia, China, N Korea, etc...  Also loosely used to denote Terrorists and Hostile Opposing Forces on a situation map (not all Opposing Forces, however, are hostile).  You tend to forget, when making statements that you believe to be fact, that some people have worked in a field far beyond your imagination. I always thought of it as pink rather than red, but I've just found an explanation of that HERE You can always rely on crispy to miss the point... In this case the bit that said "until the mid 20th century" in my post... ie. Say before 1949 and NATO. That said I'm not surprised to find he worked in a field... Potatoes don't dig themselves up!
Krakhedd Posted Dec 16, 2014, 8:15 pm	goat starer said: You can always rely on crispy to miss the point... In this case the bit that said "until the mid 20th century" in my post... ie. Say before 1949 and NATO. That said I'm not surprised to find he worked in a field... Potatoes don't dig themselves up! Do you ever have something mutually constructive and beneficial to share, or is it always divisive comments aimed at being offensive?
*SmokeyKilla* Posted Dec 16, 2014, 8:26 pm	Quote: Do you ever have something mutually constructive and beneficial to share, or is it always divisive comments aimed at being offensive? Yeah guys can we please stay on topic and as Krakhedd said unless your going to add something benefical to the thread don't bother posting please.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 16, 2014, 9:07 pm	*SmokeyKilla* said: Quote: Do you ever have something mutually constructive and beneficial to share, or is it always divisive comments aimed at being offensive? Yeah guys can we please stay on topic and as Krakhedd said unless your going to add something benefical to the thread don't bother posting please. THIS TEXT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MARSHAL [ *SmokeyKilla*] DUE TO ITS ABUSIVE AND/OR HARASSING NATURE WHICH IS CONTRARY TO FORUM RULES AND DAMAGING TO THE ENJOYMENT OF OTHER PLAYER(S).
theHumungous Posted Dec 16, 2014, 9:21 pm	Unfortunately, Krakhedd, volunteers on any project, no matter how highly motivated at the beginning cannot be counted on for the duration of a large project. It just doesn't work. The amount of work to make even a simple game is probably a few magnitudes above what non-coders/developers can fathom (I'm a software developer as well, with a few games floating around). I've relied a few times on HIGHLY MOTIVATED volunteers to help get a game that they ABSOLUTELY LOVED - it never lasts. Also, without being a coder or artist "business" contributions, while helpful, will only help an established or game with a high chance of success (i.e. paid developers). Everyone has ideas. Ideas are easy. Implementing the ideas, and then spending the required time in the details, bugs and code is a completely different thing. I work on some games as a hobby - and as a hobby it takes a very long time. So, as much as I like what you're saying, it doesn't amount to anything for two reasons (do not take either personal): 1) Sam isn't interested (probably the biggest reason), he's put enough sweat and blood into it 2) Volunteers invariably disappear. C'est la vie.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 16, 2014, 9:40 pm	theHumungous said: Unfortunately, Krakhedd, volunteers on any project, no matter how highly motivated at the beginning cannot be counted on for the duration of a large project. It just doesn't work. The amount of work to make even a simple game is probably a few magnitudes above what non-coders/developers can fathom (I'm a software developer as well, with a few games floating around). I've relied a few times on HIGHLY MOTIVATED volunteers to help get a game that they ABSOLUTELY LOVED - it never lasts. Also, without being a coder or artist "business" contributions, while helpful, will only help an established or game with a high chance of success (i.e. paid developers). Everyone has ideas. Ideas are easy. Implementing the ideas, and then spending the required time in the details, bugs and code is a completely different thing. I work on some games as a hobby - and as a hobby it takes a very long time. So, as much as I like what you're saying, it doesn't amount to anything for two reasons (do not take either personal): 1) Sam isn't interested (probably the biggest reason), he's put enough sweat and blood into it 2) Volunteers invariably disappear. C'est la vie. Volunteers can work... Lots of peripheral stuff in this game has been done by volunteers. They tend to be best for the non core additional items that add depth and experience but are not essential. Sam not being interested sounds like he has taken his bat and ball home when in fact he has simply taken a reasonable look at cost benefit, interest etc and decided to concentrate on other stuff. He still fixes bugged events for people... He still does the things necessary to keep the game running. That is all any of us should expect. The rest is crazy speculation from people who don't understand the industry and seem incapable of distinguishing between what they like and what the market will stand. You could make a krakk team ( see what I did there?) of these highly skilled volunteers who are suddenly so eager and achieve absolutely #### all but waste more of Sams time. Personally I wish him well in new endeavours... I, glad he has said he will keep this open till the last person leaves but that is also all any of us should expect.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 16, 2014, 10:43 pm	goat starer said: *SmokeyKilla* said: Krakhedd said: Do you ever have something mutually constructive and beneficial to share, or is it always divisive comments aimed at being offensive? Yeah guys can we please stay on topic and as Krakhedd said unless your going to add something benefical to the thread don't bother posting please. THIS TEXT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MARSHAL [ *SmokeyKilla*] DUE TO ITS ABUSIVE AND/OR HARASSING NATURE WHICH IS CONTRARY TO FORUM RULES AND DAMAGING TO THE ENJOYMENT OF OTHER PLAYER(S). Again, Goat, nothing positive or constructive here, just more vitriol and tongue-in-cheek insults and derogatory comments.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 16, 2014, 10:44 pm	And, ergo, ToS violations.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 16, 2014, 10:54 pm	theHumungous said: Unfortunately, Krakhedd, volunteers on any project, no matter how highly motivated at the beginning cannot be counted on for the duration of a large project. It just doesn't work. The amount of work to make even a simple game is probably a few magnitudes above what non-coders/developers can fathom (I'm a software developer as well, with a few games floating around). I've relied a few times on HIGHLY MOTIVATED volunteers to help get a game that they ABSOLUTELY LOVED - it never lasts. Also, without being a coder or artist "business" contributions, while helpful, will only help an established or game with a high chance of success (i.e. paid developers). Everyone has ideas. Ideas are easy. Implementing the ideas, and then spending the required time in the details, bugs and code is a completely different thing. I work on some games as a hobby - and as a hobby it takes a very long time. So, as much as I like what you're saying, it doesn't amount to anything for two reasons (do not take either personal): 1) Sam isn't interested (probably the biggest reason), he's put enough sweat and blood into it 2) Volunteers invariably disappear. C'est la vie. I understand and would tend to agree....no I can't code (any more - and don't care to re-learn) but I can put together a viable business plan....help identify opportunities for revenue growth....plenty I can do w/ my skill set....but ultimately it comes down to what Sam wants to do. As far as being a "niche" game.....in its current format, yes.  When the equation is established, as it seems to be here, it must be re-written. I have spoken to several no-longer-around vets who pin their departures upon lack of bug fixes and the generally combative nature of the Forums and lobby. Anyway....I've said all I care to in this thread....have at it, I'll be in touch w/ the people who have helped me to become as successful at this game as I have been, in regard to what direction we next head.  I am hoping it's Sam accepting a crowd-funding campaign so he receives some form of compensation while he creates a new Darkwind, as he has lots of "baggage" as a parent and income-generating member of a household.
theHumungous Posted Dec 16, 2014, 11:27 pm	You know, a kickstarter plan to reinvent Dark-Wind might be a really really good way to figure out if it is feasible or not. Put a $100,000 target amount for the game and see what happens. Using videos and such from the current Dark-Wind to say, here's what we want to do, but modernized. Worst case, it doesn't get funded. Worst case, it DOES get funded (cuz Sam doesn't want to do it. LOLOL)
*goat starer* Posted Dec 16, 2014, 11:45 pm	theHumungous said: You know, a kickstarter plan to reinvent Dark-Wind might be a really really good way to figure out if it is feasible or not. Put a $100,000 target amount for the game and see what happens. Using videos and such from the current Dark-Wind to say, here's what we want to do, but modernized. Worst case, it doesn't get funded. Worst case, it DOES get funded (cuz Sam doesn't want to do it. LOLOL) Sam is sensibly reserving a kickstarter for a project that he actually wants to do. A lot of work was done on one for dw2 before he had additional thought re direction. You don't get several shots at kickstarter... You get one... Fail to deliver  a successful campaign and your backers will not reappear for a future attempt.  A 100k kickstarter would involve every current paying player putting in around 500 dollars... Not going to happen. Even a dw2 pitch would have been pitched around 1/5 of that amount.  Kickstarter campaign for film and games relies heavily on there being a fan base for your product. That base does not exist either for the specific or the genre. To give one example I am currently working with a guy putting together a feature film kickstarter due to go live in January... That is for around 100k... The short on which it is based has over600k YouTube views and won a number of major awards... It has a very clear target audience with proven disposable income and is able to identify and target thousands of potential backers... Even with all of that it may not work. People keep banging on about the game being unique as though that was a USP to bring the game to mass market. It's not. It's about niche... And a small niche.. Essentially it appeals to people who like wargaming but have made a step to computers or people who in days gone by would have been wargames but grew up with computers. It then appeals to a small subset of these for whom the post apocalyptic setting snd car combat appeals. The USP of dw is some of its general features... Perma death, persistent world, etc.. These could be recreated in any setting and, to be frank, if they had a large market there would be games like this from the large companies. They have had 9 years and a bunch of reviews to spot and copy. So let's say you pitch at a realistic level.... Say 20k Worst case.. You waste the opportunity to do future successful campaigns Best case.. You dont raise enough cash to do much at all and prove nothing
theHumungous Posted Dec 17, 2014, 12:10 am	Fair 'nuff.
Tallus Posted Dec 17, 2014, 2:06 am	Actually, I think the idea that permadeath defines dw reveals a basic and damaging misconception about the scope of the game (and also conceals its relation to successful franchises like xcom and jagged alliance. Sure there's character death, but the player is running a gang, not one 'toon. The fact that a gang's resilience limits the consequences of failure should have helped maintain a more viable pvp game, but oddly did not. Bottom line, I think, a major challenge for dw or dw 2 is maintaining focus on what really defines the game, then delivering users an experience optimized for that game. The fact that dw was conceived as a mmo sandbox is one of its exciting features but also posed real challenges in maintaining focus.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 3:27 am	Tallus said: Actually, I think the idea that permadeath defines dw reveals a basic and damaging misconception about the scope of the game (and also conceals its relation to successful franchises like xcom and jagged alliance.  Sure there's character death, but the player is running a gang, not one 'toon. The fact that a gang's resilience limits the consequences of failure should have helped maintain a more viable pvp game, but oddly did not. Bottom line, I think, a major challenge for dw or dw 2 is maintaining focus on what really defines the game, then delivering users an experience optimized for that game. The fact that dw was conceived as a mmo sandbox is one of its exciting features but also posed real challenges in maintaining focus. Interesting that aspect of gang resilience... In scav you have much less resilience... You can't develop new 'spare' characters through training and supporting a large gang is harder. You can actually find yourself wiped out to the status of noob with better kit in a way that doesn't happen in mainstream. It is also certainly the case in regular dw that permadeath and ageing affect mature gangs more than new ones. A player of anything up to a couple of years can easily use training to have adequate back up gangers... But training alone will not create a stock of replacements for the 30 spec characters of an older gang. A lot of newer players really don't get the depth of managing an old gang. As your gang ages it becomes increasingly about a very small coterie of really good characters and a few pieces of very rare kit. Resilience diminishes as your gang matures. Mature gangs will never be throw into the dark ages as they are in scav but they can be partially decapitated by one disasterous car fire. Newer players don't get that... I didn't get that until I had run a gang to that level. It made starting again and again really interesting. One of the things that makes reinventing this game... Or creating a new version... very tricky is the fact that in reality few players play this game alike and in essence it is a whole bunch of games connected by a setting ( Robbie has a point about that).
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 4:47 am	*StCrispin* said: goat starer said: PvtParty said: *StCrispin* said: As for the debate about political colors: the UN and NATO both have England's official political color as BLUE.  The U.S. Used to be Green but is now also Blue as of the change about 10 years ago.  RED is the official color of communist aligned nations such as Russia, China, N Korea, etc...  Also loosely used to denote Terrorists and Hostile Opposing Forces on a situation map (not all Opposing Forces, however, are hostile).  You tend to forget, when making statements that you believe to be fact, that some people have worked in a field far beyond your imagination. I always thought of it as pink rather than red, but I've just found an explanation of that HERE You can always rely on crispy to miss the point... In this case the bit that said "until the mid 20th century" in my post... ie. Say before 1949 and NATO. That said I'm not surprised to find he worked in a field... Potatoes don't dig themselves up! And of course your "Selective Reading" saw the word "I" where no "I" existed.  I clearly stated" Quote: some people have worked in a field Yeah.. Potatoes are probably a bit beyond you.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 17, 2014, 4:52 am	theHumungous said: You know, a kickstarter plan to reinvent Dark-Wind might be a really really good way to figure out if it is feasible or not. Put a $100,000 target amount for the game and see what happens. Using videos and such from the current Dark-Wind to say, here's what we want to do, but modernized. Worst case, it doesn't get funded. Worst case, it DOES get funded (cuz Sam doesn't want to do it. LOLOL) 100k wouldn't cut it. It would cost that much or more just for the design of the game before any coding even began.  A decent remake would require around 4000 to 5000 man hours
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 4:53 am	since crispy managed to dump anything sensible off the page....here is the last post about darkwind.. goat starer said: Tallus said: Actually, I think the idea that permadeath defines dw reveals a basic and damaging misconception about the scope of the game (and also conceals its relation to successful franchises like xcom and jagged alliance.  Sure there's character death, but the player is running a gang, not one 'toon. The fact that a gang's resilience limits the consequences of failure should have helped maintain a more viable pvp game, but oddly did not. Bottom line, I think, a major challenge for dw or dw 2 is maintaining focus on what really defines the game, then delivering users an experience optimized for that game. The fact that dw was conceived as a mmo sandbox is one of its exciting features but also posed real challenges in maintaining focus. Interesting that aspect of gang resilience... In scav you have much less resilience... You can't develop new 'spare' characters through training and supporting a large gang is harder. You can actually find yourself wiped out to the status of noob with better kit in a way that doesn't happen in mainstream. It is also certainly the case in regular dw that permadeath and ageing affect mature gangs more than new ones. A player of anything up to a couple of years can easily use training to have adequate back up gangers... But training alone will not create a stock of replacements for the 30 spec characters of an older gang. A lot of newer players really don't get the depth of managing an old gang. As your gang ages it becomes increasingly about a very small coterie of really good characters and a few pieces of very rare kit. Resilience diminishes as your gang matures. Mature gangs will never be throw into the dark ages as they are in scav but they can be partially decapitated by one disasterous car fire. Newer players don't get that... I didn't get that until I had run a gang to that level. It made starting again and again really interesting. One of the things that makes reinventing this game... Or creating a new version... very tricky is the fact that in reality few players play this game alike and in essence it is a whole bunch of games connected by a setting ( Robbie has a point about that).
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 5:03 am	*StCrispin* said: Spamming You muppet... Do you see the irony?
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 5:12 am	*StCrispin* said: theHumungous said: You know, a kickstarter plan to reinvent Dark-Wind might be a really really good way to figure out if it is feasible or not. Put a $100,000 target amount for the game and see what happens. Using videos and such from the current Dark-Wind to say, here's what we want to do, but modernized. Worst case, it doesn't get funded. Worst case, it DOES get funded (cuz Sam doesn't want to do it. LOLOL) 100k wouldn't cut it. It would cost that much or more just for the design of the game before any coding even began.  A decent remake would require around 4000 to 5000 man hours Or $20 an hour plus profit share... Seems like that is easily enough money assuming your made up numbers are right. It's easily enough money to make an indie game because it's only the seed.. Your revenue generation happens later In the process.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 17, 2014, 6:33 am	goat starer said: Or $20 an hour plus profit share... Seems like that is easily enough money assuming your made up numbers are right. It's easily enough money to make an indie game because it's only the seed.. Your revenue generation happens later In the process. the "made up numbers' are 50 weeks development for 2 employees (coders), working a Standard Workweek (for the US) of 50 hours a week. (5 ten hour days)  It does not include the Designer or any marketers. $20 an hour seems excessive.  Even programmers at Garmin International (the GPS people) where Emily works don't make quite that much.  This is the US after all.  we don't get paid as much for our labor as you Brits do.
*sam* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 6:41 am	*StCrispin* said: 50 weeks development for 2 employees (coders), working a Standard Workweek (for the US) of 50 hours a week. That's far short of what would be required to make a game with much depth, IMO.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 17, 2014, 6:50 am	*sam* said: *StCrispin* said: 50 weeks development for 2 employees (coders), working a Standard Workweek (for the US) of 50 hours a week. That's far short of what would be required to make a game with much depth, IMO. Possibly.  But depth is the job of the Designer.  Not the Coders.  The coders job is to convert the system into computer representation, not invent the system.  On the other hand, my ways may be archaic in that I believe in designing the game first, and then having it presented in whatever format it is meant for (in this case both paper, and computer formats plus multiple Boardgame formats and choose your own adventure gamebooks) Ive heard a couple of Emily's programmer friends who looked at DW laugh and say they could do it in less than 6 months.  (so I estimated 2 years instead then broke it down between 2 people for a total of 1 year).  not included were print book artists, marketers, seamstresses for the plush toys, and many other people not associated with the programming side.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 7:21 am	*StCrispin* said: goat starer said: *StCrispin* said: theHumungous said: You know, a kickstarter plan to reinvent Dark-Wind might be a really really good way to figure out if it is feasible or not. Put a $100,000 target amount for the game and see what happens. Using videos and such from the current Dark-Wind to say, here's what we want to do, but modernized. Worst case, it doesn't get funded. Worst case, it DOES get funded (cuz Sam doesn't want to do it. LOLOL) 100k wouldn't cut it. It would cost that much or more just for the design of the game before any coding even began.  A decent remake would require around 4000 to 5000 man hours Or $20 an hour plus profit share... Seems like that is easily enough money assuming your made up numbers are right. It's easily enough money to make an indie game because it's only the seed.. Your revenue generation happens later In the process. the "made up numbers' are 50 weeks development for 2 employees (coders), working a Standard Workweek (for the US) of 50 hours a week. (5 ten hour days)  It does not include the Designer or any marketers. $20 an hour is excessive.  Even programmers at Garmin International (the GPS people) where Emily works don't make quite that much.  This is the US after all.  we don't get paid as much for our labor as you Brits do. A minute ago you said 100k would not be enough... Now you are saying that dividing 100k by the hours you said it would take makes the hourly rate too high To square that circle you add a few other roles that were not in your original hours, all of which are also made up numbers Then you decide to argue the point with the one guy who actually knows how long it takes you post things.. Then when you realise they don't make sense you post more things and compound the issue. It's like watching the Sorcerors Apprentice.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 7:24 am	*sam* said: *StCrispin* said: 50 weeks development for 2 employees (coders), working a Standard Workweek (for the US) of 50 hours a week. That's far short of what would be required to make a game with much depth, IMO. Morning Sam... Late night or up early?
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 17, 2014, 7:49 am	Whats it matter anyway? this is Krak's idea. So far there are 2 schools of thought on it. People like me who would offer ideas to give it a shot. And then the others who just want to insult him and put him down or anyone giving him constructive feedback. Kickstarter is idiotic. Just 2 months ago a report came out saying 78% of all successful kickstarter campaigns have failed to deliver on their promises and the whole thing is being investigated by the government agency that looks into those things. Plus new laws allow the Government to take up to 64% of all money received from a kickstarter campaign.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:06 am	*StCrispin* said: Whats it matter anyway?  this is Krak's idea. So far there are 2 schools of thought on it.  People like me who would offer ideas to give it a shot.  And then the others who just want to insult him and put him down or anyone giving him constructive feedback. Kickstarter is idiotic.  Just 2 months ago a report came out saying 78% of all successful kickstarter campaigns have failed to deliver on their promises and the whole thing is being investigated by the government agency that looks into those things.  Plus new laws allow the Government to take up to 64% of all money received from a kickstarter campaign. Again.. You are making up numbers or misunderstanding them. There is a figure of 75% of projects being LATE in one area ( tech and design) always risky investments. Tech projects.. Mostly gadgets, that may or may not work are unsurprisingly difficult to deliver on time. In terms of complete failure the rate is much much lower. Last year I supported 9 kickstarters... All delivered on time. It has a far higher start rate than conventional business funding.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:13 am	*StCrispin* said: goat starer said: *StCrispin* said: goat starer said: *StCrispin* said: theHumungous said: You know, a kickstarter plan to reinvent Dark-Wind might be a really really good way to figure out if it is feasible or not. Put a $100,000 target amount for the game and see what happens. Using videos and such from the current Dark-Wind to say, here's what we want to do, but modernized. Worst case, it doesn't get funded. Worst case, it DOES get funded (cuz Sam doesn't want to do it. LOLOL) 100k wouldn't cut it. It would cost that much or more just for the design of the game before any coding even began.  A decent remake would require around 4000 to 5000 man hours Or $20 an hour plus profit share... Seems like that is easily enough money assuming your made up numbers are right. It's easily enough money to make an indie game because it's only the seed.. Your revenue generation happens later In the process. the "made up numbers' are 50 weeks development for 2 employees (coders), working a Standard Workweek (for the US) of 50 hours a week. (5 ten hour days)  It does not include the Designer or any marketers. $20 an hour is excessive.  Even programmers at Garmin International (the GPS people) where Emily works don't make quite that much.  This is the US after all.  we don't get paid as much for our labor as you Brits do. A minute ago you said 100k would not be enough... Now you are saying that dividing 100k by the hours you said it would take makes the hourly rate too high To square that circle you add a few other roles that were not in your original hours, all of which are also made up numbers Then you decide to argue the point with the one guy who actually knows how long it takes you post things.. Then when you realise they don't make sense you post more things and compound the issue. It's like watching the Sorcerors Apprentice. Sam worked on DW Part time by all accounts. If he worked on it 3 hours a day (21 hours a week, exceeding the legal definition of part time by 1 hours), 365 days a year, and it took more than 5000 man hours to produce a working product (which he has said is too few hours) then that means it took him over 5 years of programming before he had his first Alpha. So yes I dispute that. As for the man hours I stated that It would take 4000 to 5000 man hours to code it. I didn't say 5000 total hours for the entire project.  the rest of the items are not items normally listed when a company tells you the number of man hours it took to program a product. No you didn't...you didn't mention code... It's in black and white in your post.. You said a decent remake would take 4000 To 5000 man hours. A decent remake has to include everything and any company providing you with a business plan or project proposal that only includes one element of the cost I the proposal is idiotic. The rest of your stuff on sams time is silly conjecture. Anyone who knows him knows that he puts in astonishing hours... He wasn't being paid to do it as a part time job... It was done in his own time and your estimates are way off.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:15 am	Clothing and Apparel was the one highlighted in the paper. Especially the guy making shirts that change color when you sweat. He is in big trouble over his. 2 years later and he has shipped zero shirts. Which newspaper did you pull your numbers from? Mine are from the Associated Press and I read both the local KC Star and the one in the Wall Street Journal. So if they are made up, then it wasn't me making it up.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:17 am	goat starer said: No you didn't...you didn't mention code... It's in black and white in your post.. You said a decent remake would take 4000 To 5000 man hours. A decent remake has to include everything and any company providing you with a business plan or project proposal that only includes one element of the cost I the proposal is idiotic. The rest of your stuff on sams time is silly conjecture. Anyone who knows him knows that he puts in astonishing hours... He wasn't being paid to do it as a part time job... It was done in his own time and your estimates are way off. Okay. I was unaware that it took over 5 years to code the first alpha prior to release. My mistake. I also didn't know that when Blizzard listed the man hours to make WoW that they included the hours spent making the Plush Toys and plastic Action Figures and Card games that they use as peripheral marketing.  I thought they kust listed the hours of coding when they said "X number of man hours of coding"
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:17 am	i see you just edited your post to include the word coding Last edited at 7.50 am You really are terribly transparent
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:19 am	*StCrispin* said: goat starer said: *StCrispin* said: goat starer said: *StCrispin* said: goat starer said: *StCrispin* said: theHumungous said: You know, a kickstarter plan to reinvent Dark-Wind might be a really really good way to figure out if it is feasible or not. Put a $100,000 target amount for the game and see what happens. Using videos and such from the current Dark-Wind to say, here's what we want to do, but modernized. Worst case, it doesn't get funded. Worst case, it DOES get funded (cuz Sam doesn't want to do it. LOLOL) 100k wouldn't cut it. It would cost that much or more just for the design of the game before any coding even began.  A decent remake would require around 4000 to 5000 man hours Or $20 an hour plus profit share... Seems like that is easily enough money assuming your made up numbers are right. It's easily enough money to make an indie game because it's only the seed.. Your revenue generation happens later In the process. the "made up numbers' are 50 weeks development for 2 employees (coders), working a Standard Workweek (for the US) of 50 hours a week. (5 ten hour days)  It does not include the Designer or any marketers. $20 an hour is excessive.  Even programmers at Garmin International (the GPS people) where Emily works don't make quite that much.  This is the US after all.  we don't get paid as much for our labor as you Brits do. A minute ago you said 100k would not be enough... Now you are saying that dividing 100k by the hours you said it would take makes the hourly rate too high To square that circle you add a few other roles that were not in your original hours, all of which are also made up numbers Then you decide to argue the point with the one guy who actually knows how long it takes you post things.. Then when you realise they don't make sense you post more things and compound the issue. It's like watching the Sorcerors Apprentice. Sam worked on DW Part time by all accounts. If he worked on it 3 hours a day (21 hours a week, exceeding the legal definition of part time by 1 hours), 365 days a year, and it took more than 5000 man hours to produce a working product (which he has said is too few hours) then that means it took him over 5 years of programming before he had his first Alpha. So yes I dispute that. As for the man hours I stated that It would take 4000 to 5000 man hours to code it. I didn't say 5000 total hours for the entire project.  the rest of the items are not items normally listed when a company tells you the number of man hours it took to program a product. No you didn't...you didn't mention code... It's in black and white in your post.. You said a decent remake would take 4000 To 5000 man hours. A decent remake has to include everything and any company providing you with a business plan or project proposal that only includes one element of the cost I the proposal is idiotic. The rest of your stuff on sams time is silly conjecture. Anyone who knows him knows that he puts in astonishing hours... He wasn't being paid to do it as a part time job... It was done in his own time and your estimates are way off. Okay. I was unaware that it took over 5 years to code the first alpha prior ro release. My mistake. Only you have ever said it did.. Why don't you ask Sam instead of making stuff up If you actually want to know.,, the game was started in 2005 and completed in 2007. Sam took a sabbatical year to work on the game during that year and worked on it evenings and weekends (and certainly not whilst at university.. Honest). That sabbatical year .. If just working a 37 hour week ... amounts to over 8000 hours. Plus evenings, weekends etc. The game was launched as arena death racing so much of the wilderness work came later.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:28 am	Sam stated 5000 hours was not sufficient. "Part time" by definition results in about 1000 hours per year. thus 5000 hours = 5 years. Im ASSUMING he meant the time spent AFTER release, since it seems unwise to invest 5000 hours into something all by yourself without having any product out there to show for it or test But keep going on your crusade to squash Krak's idea. you have made it clear you disliked him since day 1 so its not surprising. And FYI Emily's Statistics professor said a single piece of data is still sufficient for a statistic. It merely reduces the confidence level.
Groovelle Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:28 am	Wot does Sam want to do?
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:29 am	Groovelle said: Wot does Sam want to do? He said what he wants to do on page 2
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:33 am	*StCrispin* said: Sam stated 5000 hours was not sufficient. "Part time" by definition results in about 1000 hours per year. thus 5000 hours = 5 years. But keep going on your crusade to squash Krak's idea.  you have made it clear you disliked him since day 1 so its not surprising. And FYI Emily's Statistics professor said a single piece of data is still sufficient for a statistic.  It merely reduces the confidence level. I have amended my last post with some details. Part time in the EU is clearly not as defined as you think it is. Sam took a sabbatical year to develop the game. Worked evenings and weekends. That sabbatical year is over 3000 hours alone. The game took 2 years to build with additional work later on wilderness and additions, features. Your rather weird use of a part time definition to apply to someone working on a personal entrepreneurial project is making your numbers not add up.. Have a think about it.nsam is not a paid employee
Groovelle Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:34 am	Quote: I have been working on several prototype ideas.. actually too many. Two of them are direct spin-offs of DW. I'd love to be able to pick between these two, but I'm finding it very hard.. certainly trying to do both at the same time isn't the smartest idea: I wanna hear what else he'd like to do. That's only the two things related to Darkwind he's thought of. Maybe the nextbig thing is different than whatwe've been wishing for.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:36 am	Groovelle said: Quote: I have been working on several prototype ideas.. actually too many. Two of them are direct spin-offs of DW. I'd love to be able to pick between these two, but I'm finding it very hard.. certainly trying to do both at the same time isn't the smartest idea: I wanna hear what else he'd like to do. That's only the two things related to Darkwind he's thought of. Maybe the nextbig thing is different than whatwe've been wishing for. That's the right attitude.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:38 am	he said he was wanting to do ONE of those two. Real time Arena or Real time MMO either way "Real time" I just bought (on sale with deep discount!) a new Turn Based game though, Endless: Legend. Looks like a less pretty version of Civ 5 mixed with Master of Magic. Not sure if I like it or not yet. Some new Turn based games have also caught my eye. I cant play real time. When the dogs need to take a dump, they wont wait for me to reach a save point. That's why I cant play X: Terran Conflict
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:48 am	*StCrispin* said: he said he was wanting to do ONE of those two. Real time Arena or Real time MMO either way "Real time" I just bought (on sale with deep discount!) a new Turn Based game though, Endless: Legend.  Looks like a less pretty version of Civ 5 mixed with Master of Magic.  Not sure if I like it or not yet. Some new Turn based games have also caught my eye. I cant play real time.  When the dogs need to take a dump, they wont wait for me to reach a save point.  That's why I cant play X: Terran Conflict And here we reach the nub of the issue. What we have In the blue corner Is a bunch of guys for who this game suits their personal needs well but who wish it was more polished and had more players. In the red corner we have a developer and people with objectivity looking at a game in the decline phase of a product cycle and a model that is decidedly not going to appeal to a mass market. It's hard to how those 2 can work. I like the fact that people put their heart over their head when thinking about the game... It is amazing. But it's a business.. Not a vanity project and in the end heads will triumph.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:54 am	*sam* said: *StCrispin* said: Sam, the peripheral marketing is key to creating supporting income.  I've said this now for a couple years.  I Even offered about a 1/2 dozen suggestions.  I didn't go forward with any of them, as you showed no interest in promoting the game (at that time). I have no interest in investing countless hours and $ in something that I believe will nett me a loss, that's true. Not sure how it costs you money when one Idea was "I spend my money making DW apparel and selling it on eBay as advertising" and another was "I spend my money and time making a DW game book like the old MERP Quest or Car Wars type, and sell them as DW advertising" or the "DW branded Soap" That I already spent my money on (Leather and Smoke fragrance with dead sea clay).  Or the Territorial Boardgame...  All I asked for was permission.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 9:00 am	*StCrispin* said: *sam* said: *StCrispin* said: Sam, the peripheral marketing is key to creating supporting income.  I've said this now for a couple years.  I Even offered about a 1/2 dozen suggestions.  I didn't go forward with any of them, as you showed no interest in promoting the game (at that time). I have no interest in investing countless hours and $ in something that I believe will nett me a loss, that's true. Not sure how it costs you money when one Idea was "I spend my money making DW apparel and selling it on eBay as advertising" and another was "I spend my money and time making a DW game book like the old MERP Quest or Car Wars type, and sell them as DW advertising" or the "DW branded Soap" That I already spent my money on (Leather and Smoke fragrance with dead sea clay).  Or the Territorial Boardgame...  All I asked for was permission. You do know half the people interested in wargames don't use soap?
Alocalypse Posted Dec 17, 2014, 9:13 am	This numbers talk makes my head hurt, not just because all the numbers seem naive and unrealistic, but because it's a passion project and the numbers won't ever come out reasonable. What is it supposed to achieve? To show that it's possible or impossible to make a game like this (but better)? Does the answer make a difference? It probably wasn't primarily about the money for Sam until he got bored (after a surprisingly long time). And to get it done you would probably need someone with enough "madness" to attempt doing it even if it is impossible. It seems pretty clear people are passionate about it, but just don't have the skills/time. If there's a way forward it's going to be from someone doing something, not by committee or consensus.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 9:59 am	Alocalypse said: This numbers talk makes my head hurt, not just because all the numbers seem naive and unrealistic, but because it's a passion project and the numbers won't ever come out reasonable. What is it supposed to achieve? To show that it's possible or impossible to make a game like this (but better)? Does the answer make a difference? It probably wasn't primarily about the money for Sam until he got bored (after a surprisingly long time). And to get it done you would probably need someone with enough "madness" to attempt doing it even if it is impossible. It seems pretty clear people are passionate about it, but just don't have the skills/time. If there's a way forward it's going to be from someone doing something, not by committee or consensus. You should pop back more often alo
*sam* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 10:55 am	*StCrispin* said: Ive heard a couple of Emily's programmer friends who looked at DW laugh and say they could do it in less than 6 months.  LOL. Sorry, I couldn't help that. Either they don't know what they're talking about.. most likely they have no idea of the depth in DW, or they're inexperienced (you mentioned Emily was a student?), or they're joking.
*sam* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 11:12 am	Alocalypse said: This numbers talk makes my head hurt, not just because all the numbers seem naive and unrealistic, but because it's a passion project and the numbers won't ever come out reasonable. What is it supposed to achieve? To show that it's possible or impossible to make a game like this (but better)? Does the answer make a difference? It probably wasn't primarily about the money for Sam until he got bored (after a surprisingly long time). And to get it done you would probably need someone with enough "madness" to attempt doing it even if it is impossible. It seems pretty clear people are passionate about it, but just don't have the skills/time. If there's a way forward it's going to be from someone doing something, not by committee or consensus. This guy knows what he's talking about
*sam* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 11:24 am	Groovelle said: Quote: I have been working on several prototype ideas.. actually too many. Two of them are direct spin-offs of DW. I'd love to be able to pick between these two, but I'm finding it very hard.. certainly trying to do both at the same time isn't the smartest idea: I wanna hear what else he'd like to do. That's only the two things related to Darkwind he's thought of. Maybe the nextbig thing is different than whatwe've been wishing for. Thanks for asking! Yeah, the 2 things above are both car combat. I have had various other ideas bubbling away, one of which (a smaller game) has been making some good progress in the last couple of weeks: It's a multiplayer 2D isometric pixel zombie shooter, for LAN/party play. With players using computers *or* their phones as controllers. This is the unique hook of course: everyone can play, even those who don't have a computer with them. I prototyped the phones-as-controllers concept in a recent game jam, and it was very popular: http://www.psychicsoftware.com/2014/hittin-worlds-game-jam-winner/ Here's a pic of zombie-pixel-whatyacallit: I start and abandon far too many game projects, which I'm not always happy about, but it's one way of tinkering with ideas and seeing which ones take off. The realtime 3D car-combat arena/deathracing game has been coming along well also (although I'm loving the extra productivity of working in 2D and with web languages). The 2D web-based MMO idea is just a barebones concept right now, I was mostly focusing on efficiency considerations and getting thousands of players simultaneously driving around without killing the server.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 17, 2014, 12:36 pm	I'm confused, is that 3D 3rd person perspective image, the 2D game your talking about? looks neat
*sam* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 1:12 pm	Sorry yeah.. 2D graphics giving a false-3D isometric view. Graphics a lot like old school sim city ;-)
*Bigspenner* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 4:41 pm	Did I mention I really love Darkwind? If I had a suggestion it would be that's it should have a buffet and better toilet facilities.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 4:58 pm	*Bigspenner* said: Did I mention I really love Darkwind? If I had a suggestion it would be that's it should have a buffet and better toilet facilities. The last thing you need is a buffet
musashi_san Posted Dec 17, 2014, 5:10 pm	rofl. probably true of a lot of us, maybe just more so with big. or so i've heard.
musashi_san Posted Dec 17, 2014, 5:11 pm	goat starer said: You do know half the people interested in wargames don't use soap? half sounds low, frankly.
musashi_san Posted Dec 17, 2014, 5:17 pm	*sam* said: *StCrispin* said: Ive heard a couple of Emily's programmer friends who looked at DW laugh and say they could do it in less than 6 months.  LOL. Sorry, I couldn't help that. Either they don't know what they're talking about.. most likely they have no idea of the depth in DW, or they're inexperienced (you mentioned Emily was a student?), or they're joking. yeah, that's truly ludicrous. i think they misunderstand what it is. a quick glance or two doesn't do it justice.
musashi_san Posted Dec 17, 2014, 5:22 pm	oh and i know this got no traction from anyone but me in the past, but the dw fundamental concept (persistence, permadeath, turn based, etc) in a fantasy setting would really be cool. instead of gangs/gangers have clans/wizards/knights/etc. ai would be monsters, good physics for spell effects (including concussive force, lighting things on fire, etc), good physics for an ogre hitting the ground with a club knocking people off their feet, or batting things into the air, mounts, including flying mounts, etc. probably way more work than it would ever net in return, but i can dream, can't i?
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 6:17 pm	musashi_san said: oh and i know this got no traction from anyone but me in the past, but the dw fundamental concept (persistence, permadeath, turn based, etc) in a fantasy setting would really be cool. instead of gangs/gangers have clans/wizards/knights/etc. ai would be monsters, good physics for spell effects (including concussive force, lighting things on fire, etc), good physics for an ogre hitting the ground with a club knocking people off their feet, or batting things into the air, mounts, including flying mounts, etc. probably way more work than it would ever net in return, but i can dream, can't i? I like the idea of doing it as a space game... Junk trAders and asteroid pirates... Mos Eisley style
musashi_san Posted Dec 17, 2014, 6:46 pm	the interface for a turn based tactical game in 3d space (instead of the 2d surfaces we basically have now) sounds complicated, to design, to implement and to learn how to use. sounds cool though.
bromo Posted Dec 17, 2014, 7:26 pm	*sam* said: Y 2) A top-down 2D realtime MMO where you roam a massive landscape, trading, pirating, etc. The graphical simplicity means I could realistically hope to implement stuff that I never managed in DW - stuff like proper, attackable and player-configurable player-built camps, or even Into the Ruins. You'd control one car at a time, hence would be forced to team up with other people. Just log in, form teams, and head out into the desert. This is actually pretty close to one of the ways I originally conceived DW. The above idea I believe is an good one. A car wars style sandboxish MMO where you could build camps, or even towns and have pvp revolving around the towns and transport of goods between them. Real pvp, real economy and good driving mechanics. The potential player base would be much larger then darkwind could ever imagine... kind of what i thought darkwind was when i started. We really need to move past the idea of turn based, real time games have much larger pool of potential players. Anyone ever play the last Xcom game?  Great game, amazing graphics improved in every way over its predecessor but turn based limited its success. Turn based games are for us old timers, i know a lot of younger (than me) gamer's that wont even give a game a shot because its turn based.... the other way around is rare. Sam your other idea sounds good too but other people are doing have done something similar, your second idea though would fill an empty niche that gamer's have been waiting for. oh and i enjoy turn based games too but i would play this. my two cents
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 7:47 pm	musashi_san said: the interface for a turn based tactical game in 3d space (instead of the 2d surfaces we basically have now) sounds complicated, to design, to implement and to learn how to use. sounds cool though. Yeah....  I was envisaging things happening in space, on planet surfaces etc. Turn based in space might look something like a 3d rendering of the old star frontiers battle board.... You would need a vey well designed positional system and interface..could be fun though.. Managing shields... Assessing threat... Running away from missiles etc...having weapons that take several turns to arrive would be cool ( and would also be good in dw)
Alocalypse Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:21 pm	You might want to have a look at Flotilla - it did 3D turn-based tactical space battles pretty well. I'm not sure being 3D really adds as much as I'd hoped to the tactics overall though.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:38 pm	I always think the lack of obstacles and terrain can make space battles rather dull. Things like mining craft in asteroid belts might work.
*sam* Posted Dec 18, 2014, 10:33 am	Or fighter ships dodging around larger craft?
*Awefense* Posted Dec 18, 2014, 12:54 pm	Lots of interesting ideas. Here's mine. Take the DW model. Build it as a generic foundation that would work in any number of different settings, from DW's apocalyptic car combat, to musashi's fantasy setting, goat's space setting, and the setting I would most love to see, a Battletech, Citytech setting. Any kind of setting could be made to work. I envision it being kinda like GURPS, but for computer gaming. One generic foundation of code that could be made to work with any setting that you can think of and create. Disclaimer~~~~ I do not write code and I am not a programmer. I am just a gamer with a couple of ideas. If this could be done, you could eventually end up with 5 or 10 really awesome turn-based, gang management, permadeath kind of games, ala DW. Wouldn't that be cool?
*goat starer* Posted Dec 18, 2014, 9:04 pm	Awefense said: Lots of interesting ideas. Here's mine. Take the DW model. Build it as a generic foundation that would work in any number of different settings, from DW's apocalyptic car combat, to musashi's fantasy setting, goat's space setting, and the setting I would most love to see, a Battletech, Citytech setting. Any kind of setting could be made to work. I envision it being kinda like GURPS, but for computer gaming. One generic foundation of code that could be made to work with any setting that you can think of and create. Disclaimer~~~~ I do not write code and I am not a programmer. I am just a gamer with a couple of ideas. If this could be done, you could eventually end up with 5 or 10 really awesome turn-based, gang management, permadeath kind of games, ala DW. Wouldn't that be cool? Yes... Add air combat etc... Only issue I can see is that I think you would have 10 games all seeking players from a vanishingly small pool.. Could it support it?
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 18, 2014, 9:32 pm	*sam* said: *StCrispin* said: Ive heard a couple of Emily's programmer friends who looked at DW laugh and say they could do it in less than 6 months.  LOL. Sorry, I couldn't help that. Either they don't know what they're talking about.. most likely they have no idea of the depth in DW, or they're inexperienced (you mentioned Emily was a student?), or they're joking. The 2 programmer friends also said they wouldn't touch game programming because they don't make money.  One works as a programmer for Cerner.  The other does some sort of data migration stuff and travels the world for his job.  He recently got back from Morocco. As Emily is a decade or more older than her classmates, she doesn't have enough in common with them to bother associating with them.  So when I talk about her programmer friends, I'm referring to professional programmers who to it for a living or who work for major corporations.  Her friends at Garmin International wouldn't even look at it.  Again citing that games don't make money. I'm pretty sure her friends didn't actually PLAY the game.  But like I said, depth isn't the job of the programmer unless it's a one man show.  The designer designs the game, the programmers convert the design to computer media presentation.  For DW it was a one man show so I can see how your perspective differs from mine. If I were to take a crack at the idea, I wouldn't start with the car combat portion.  I'd develop the MMORPG aspect.  Maybe not necessarily Wow-like as the switching between realtime and turn based would be jarring.  Plus real time doesn't lend well to group based action.  Something more like Legend of Farghail...  Or however it was spelled.  "Tick based" Where they used a timed limit before "time" ticked.  But you could move before then and cause the tick. I made an asteroids game like that back in '87.  unfortunately my "big" asteroids didn't stick together and I got a whole lot of little asteroids instead.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 18, 2014, 9:55 pm	If my comments insulted you in some way, Sam, I apologize. I felt that 2 Years working 5 days a week, 10 hours a day, with no sick time or other time off other than the usualy expected 2 days a week, would be enough to produce a working remake. I wasn't refering to tweaks or patches done after it became open to play. I know those things add to the time spent perfecting something. As manufacturers don't release man hours spent fixing or tweaking things (as it makes their game look broken if they spent a lot of time "fixing" it) I have no frame of reference for those man hours. I bet games like WoW have more "repair/tweak/patch" manhours than the time it took to make the game in the first place.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 19, 2014, 12:28 am	It pays to remember the First Law of Holes
musashi_san Posted Dec 19, 2014, 3:09 am	*StCrispin* said: The 2 programmer friends also said they wouldn't touch game programming because they don't make money. triple a titles do, check out ea's stock price etc. not for the programmers, though, typically. the ones who make money are the business people who put the company together. *StCrispin* said: The other does some sort of data migration stuff and travels the world for his job.  He recently got back from Morocco. i can't imagine why travel would be necessary for that job in the age of the internet. it does pay though *StCrispin* said: The designer designs the game, the programmers convert the design to computer media presentation.  note the plural. big games these days are typically made by rather large teams, and involve more man *years* than you can shake a stick at. hundreds might not be totally out of wack if you count testers, and art people, and hr people, etc... *StCrispin* said: I made an asteroids game like that back in '87.  unfortunately my "big" asteroids didn't stick together and I got a whole lot of little asteroids instead. the relationship between something like that, something like dw, and something like wow is almost but not entirely none. sort of like the not-tea from the hitchhikers guide. one of my employees once built a fully functional space invaders clone, in *foxpro* of all things, in his spare time over a couple weeks. just for fun. i conclude it is therefore possible to make gta5 in perl in a day or two
musashi_san Posted Dec 19, 2014, 3:19 am	goat starer said: It pays to remember the First Law of Holes thanks for reminding me of this law.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 19, 2014, 4:39 am	Asteroids took me 30 minutes, as a 12 year old. Not comparing this to DW. I was comparing that "tick based" game to the concept of "tick based" games. Had nothing to do with development time comparisons. As for money from triple a grade games, the programmers don't make much. Except maybe a name for themselves. I worked with a few as a tester back in the 1990's and mostly all they did was complain how badly they were treated by their company. (I tested for SSI, EA, and some no-name company that had recruited some of the MPS Labs guys when MPS broke up). Most of them did it because they wanted to be the next Richard Garriot but he made his name before mega companies existed with those 100 man hour games of my youth!
*sam* Posted Dec 19, 2014, 10:11 am	*StCrispin* said: The 2 programmer friends also said they wouldn't touch game programming because they don't make money.  One works as a programmer for Cerner.  The other does some sort of data migration stuff and travels the world for his job.  He recently got back from Morocco. As Emily is a decade or more older than her classmates, she doesn't have enough in common with them to bother associating with them.  So when I talk about her programmer friends, I'm referring to professional programmers who to it for a living or who work for major corporations.  Her friends at Garmin International wouldn't even look at it.  Again citing that games don't make money. OK, they know about programming then, but obviously not games programming. I'm pretty sure no programmer on earth could produce DW in 6 months. And I have been programming for more than 30 years. *StCrispin* said: If my comments insulted you in some way, Sam, I apologize. Not at all :-) My LOL comment was literally that.. a LOL.
Alocalypse Posted Dec 19, 2014, 11:04 am	I just assumed the 6 months quote was just for the website, in which case it's somewhat plausible. If you scope everything out very well, don't experiment at all with redesigning features/UX improvements and use modern web frameworks that you're already familiar with beforehand. A real game developer would just say 'soon'
musashi_san Posted Dec 21, 2014, 3:45 am	Alocalypse said: A real game developer would just say 'soon' to quote the simpsons, it's funny because it's true.
musashi_san Posted Dec 21, 2014, 3:47 am	*sam* said: And I have been programming for more than 30 years. thought i was almost the only one. 39 years and counting... that's before the personal computer, started with basic on a pdp-11...
musashi_san Posted Dec 21, 2014, 4:30 am	*StCrispin* said: Asteroids took me 30 minutes, as a 12 year old. hard to gauge how impressive 30 minutes is for something that didn't actually work as intended. it's no small thing, certainly, to even get to the point where you would have the problem you describe. can i ask what platform/language/library? just curious...
Ragnak Posted Dec 21, 2014, 5:01 am	musashi_san said: *sam* said: And I have been programming for more than 30 years. thought i was almost the only one. 39 years and counting... that's before the personal computer, started with basic on a pdp-11... Most of them are babes in the woods. Mainframe Unisys 1100 exec series with machine language and their mapper program. The 70's were something.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 21, 2014, 6:30 am	musashi_san said: *StCrispin* said: Asteroids took me 30 minutes, as a 12 year old. hard to gauge how impressive 30 minutes is for something that didn't actually work as intended. it's no small thing, certainly, to even get to the point where you would have the problem you describe. can i ask what platform/language/library? just curious... Platform was the Timex-Sinclair 2000 (with 16k memory enhancement add on) bringing it to a total of 18k Language was Basic Problem was that this was before the concept of Sprites.  So the "Large Asteroid" was actually 4 independently moving single pixel "Small Asteroids" moving in sync with eachother.  (Pixels were quite large back then.  I think the screen size was something like 144 pixels on its longest side (X axis) or something around that size.  Been so long I cant remember for sure.  That was 33 years ago. The issue occurred when the asteroid left the left side of the screen and reappeared on the other side (as they did in the original).  they held together until then.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 21, 2014, 4:47 pm	*StCrispin* said: musashi_san said: *StCrispin* said: Asteroids took me 30 minutes, as a 12 year old. hard to gauge how impressive 30 minutes is for something that didn't actually work as intended. it's no small thing, certainly, to even get to the point where you would have the problem you describe. can i ask what platform/language/library? just curious... Platform was the Timex-Sinclair 2000 (with 16k memory enhancement add on) bringing it to a total of 18k Language was Basic Problem was that this was before the concept of Sprites.  So the "Large Asteroid" was actually 4 independently moving single pixel "Small Asteroids" moving in sync with eachother.  (Pixels were quite large back then.  I think the screen size was something like 144 pixels on its longest side (X axis) or something around that size.  Been so long I cant remember for sure.  That was 33 years ago. The issue occurred when the asteroid left the left side of the screen and reappeared on the other side (as they did in the original).  they held together until then. Sprites wasn't a concept, it was hardware. First used in the commodore PET made in 1977, the timex sinclair was released july of 1982. Sprites were hardly new in 82.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 21, 2014, 4:52 pm	*StCrispin* said: musashi_san said: *StCrispin* said: Asteroids took me 30 minutes, as a 12 year old. hard to gauge how impressive 30 minutes is for something that didn't actually work as intended. it's no small thing, certainly, to even get to the point where you would have the problem you describe. can i ask what platform/language/library? just curious... Platform was the Timex-Sinclair 2000 (with 16k memory enhancement add on) bringing it to a total of 18k Language was Basic Problem was that this was before the concept of Sprites.  So the "Large Asteroid" was actually 4 independently moving single pixel "Small Asteroids" moving in sync with eachother.  (Pixels were quite large back then.  I think the screen size was something like 144 pixels on its longest side (X axis) or something around that size.  Been so long I cant remember for sure.  That was 33 years ago. The issue occurred when the asteroid left the left side of the screen and reappeared on the other side (as they did in the original).  they held together until then. Sprites wasn't a concept, it was hardware. First used in the commodore PET made in 1977, the timex sinclair was released july of 1982. Sprites were hardly new in 82.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 21, 2014, 5:57 pm	Me and my dad made a cracking Dambusters game on the ZX81. I really dont think that it in any way qualifies me to comment on programming.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 21, 2014, 10:57 pm	And yet you comment anyway. Grimm, thanks for the info on Sprites. I did not have anything which used them until my Commodore C64c. I don't know what Crackling Dambusters are, but it sounds like a reverse artillery (bomb dropping?) type game. We were required to program that type of thing as well as the Artillery clone in School for math class as part of our Trig assignment (though the moving "bomber" also added an element of Physics class to the equasion) I don't know a lot about modern languages. My computer game development business closed in 1993 when all of my fellow co-owners moved to different parts of the country and I entered military service. The business was (for us) a total waste of time since everything we released, came out "a day late and a dollar short" as the major companies at the time beat us to market with pretty much every concept we were working on. I'm sure you have already hear my "I was programming Civilization until Sid Meyer released his" story. His was MUCH better but mine was better than the one released by Bill Stealy (but his was pretty, mine was ASKII) The only positive thing I took from that experience was seeing some of my methods of approaching memory constraints finding their way into triple A titles from major corporations. Those methods are now outdated and laughable but at the time they allowed people to circumvent the "you can't do that because technology won't allow it" barrier. I comment here with suggestions, trying to be a good friend to Krak. Unlike the people who simply shoot his idea down, I support his desire and want to find a way that allows it to be a possibility.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 21, 2014, 11:04 pm	*StCrispin* said: And yet you comment anyway. Nope.. I don't comment... I make absolutely no comment on programming. I will make a comment on you commenting on programming... It's presumptive and rude. Attempting to extrapolate someone else's work from a bit of basic you failed to do 30 years ago is just weird.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 21, 2014, 11:36 pm	I like how that's all you took from my post. Had you read the prior posts carefully you'd have noted that the reference to the asteroids program was in regards to the use of "tick based" time progression in gaming. A hybrid between Turn-based and Real-time. I suggested that idea to Sam when he was considering a "fast turn" or real time arena idea a year or more ago. He was receptive to the idea (idk if he called it "interesting" or "good" or "fun" or what... And I don't feel like forum searching) I may be wrong but I find it unlikely that modern programming exists to make programming something MORE time consuming or harder than it used to be. Thus my assumptions on time. Perhaps I simply should have said "Hey Sam, how many programmers working 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, no sick days, no comp time, no holidays, no PTO, VTO, or any other time off, (the American way) would it take to produce the first working Alpha or maybe early Beta, in 1 years time or less?" But I figure someone would have mistook that for a elitist/sexist/political/racist/speciesism joke like "how many {insert race, species, religion, politic, or gender here} does it take to {insert taks here... Such as change a lightbulb}"
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 21, 2014, 11:43 pm	Oops forgot one other part of the question... "Given that they have already been provided with the Pseudocode"
*Bigspenner* Posted Dec 21, 2014, 11:55 pm	Sounds very timeist to me, what have you got against months or decades or weeks or hours. Its this kind of depraved filth that makes my clock stop!
*goat starer* Posted Dec 22, 2014, 12:42 am	*StCrispin* said: I like how that's all you took from my post. Had you read the prior posts carefully you'd have noted that the reference to the asteroids program was in regards to the use of "tick based" time progression in gaming.  A hybrid between Turn-based and Real-time.  I suggested that idea to Sam when he was considering a "fast turn" or real time arena idea a year or more ago.  He was receptive to the idea (idk if he called it "interesting" or "good" or "fun" or what... And I don't feel like forum searching) I may be wrong but I find it unlikely that modern programming exists to make programming something MORE time consuming or harder than it used to be.  Thus my assumptions on time. Perhaps I simply should have said "Hey Sam, how many programmers working 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, no sick days, no comp time, no holidays, no PTO, VTO, or any other time off, (the American way) would it take to produce the first working Alpha or maybe early Beta, in 1 years time or less?" But I figure someone would have mistook that for a elitist/sexist/political/racist/speciesism joke like "how many {insert race, species, religion, politic, or gender here} does it take to {insert taks here... Such as change a lightbulb}" You think modern programming might equate to you typing 10 PRINT "CRISPY IS ACE" 20 GOTO 10 RUN That explains some of this nonsense.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 22, 2014, 2:53 am	Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. Also best to stay with the general topic of ITR and the suggestions about programming it (as well as a car tactical combat modual) or funding it, as a project independent of DW. Otherwise we could be accused of off topic discussion.
Groovelle Posted Dec 22, 2014, 7:01 am	Quote: Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. , lolwut. How many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? [This post has been deleted by a marshal.]
Alocalypse Posted Dec 22, 2014, 7:17 am	Quote: Oops forgot one other part of the question... "Given that they have already been provided with the Pseudocode" How long would the pseudocode take to write? *StCrispin* said: I may be wrong but I find it unlikely that modern programming exists to make programming something MORE time consuming or harder than it used to be.  Thus my assumptions on time. Modern programming tools make hard/impossible tasks easy/possible, but in the end you're still using the same basic building blocks. You also need to be aware of what tricks to use to save time and often that knowledge comes painfully. You can usually find an engine/library/code to do 90% of what you wan't but the last 10% to get it working just like you want it will be a hacky mess unless you're willing to compromise on features. Standards for what an acceptable level of game is are also much higher. Quote: Perhaps I simply should have said "Hey Sam, how many programmers working 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, no sick days, no comp time, no holidays, no PTO, VTO, or any other time off, (the American way) would it take to produce the first working Alpha or maybe early Beta, in 1 years time or less?" Keep in mind that programmer productivity varies a lot and you need someone with the appropriate and very varied skills for (web) back/front end programming, server administration, at least basic 3D modelling, 3D graphics programming, (car) physics, networking etc. You're probably not going to find anyone who has all those skills and have to compromise/accept some things will be slower due to learning on the job. Also estimating how long software projects take to complete is notoriously difficult, especially for something as ambiguous yet complex as this. It's even harder to estimate how long someone else would take to do it unless you already know them very well. And you should use realistic/relaxed working hours because overworked people are less productive and having a high turnover because of bs working conditions would set the project back more than the extra hours would really help. Personally if I'm overworked it seems like I write more bugs than actual working code. Also this thread has kinda inspired me to try programming a car game myself. It turns out you can get surprisingly far in little time with Unity car tutorials/sample code if you know what you're doing. (As opposed to rigging stuff up wrong and having it go all Fallout 3 on you, which may have happened to me at several different times with different approaches) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/109997577/estoniantrucksimulator.jpg
*Bigspenner* Posted Dec 22, 2014, 10:26 am	Groovelle said: Quote: Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. , lolwut. How many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? [This post has been deleted by a marshal.] I don't know how many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I bet its a few plus StCrinklyfin to delete everything he dosent like based on some odd logic
Bill Butcher Cutting Posted Dec 22, 2014, 12:01 pm	Do you ever wonder if Sam is really a sociology professor using DW to study the interrelationship patterns of the competitive aging nerd population? I think this thread speaks volumes.
*Bigspenner* Posted Dec 22, 2014, 12:35 pm	Bill Butcher Cutting said: Do you ever wonder if Sam is really a sociology professor using DW to study the interrelationship patterns of the competitive aging nerd population? I think this thread speaks volumes. LOL To even suggest such a thing shows extreme nerdishness Can you imagine just how nerdy one would have to be to study "nerd interrelationships" Anyway I cant stay and chat I am very busy writing a spreadsheet to catalogue and analyse all of my dice rolls from the 1980s so I can write statistics based report on dice probability which I am sure everyone will want to read.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 22, 2014, 1:15 pm	*Bigspenner* said: Groovelle said: Quote: Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. , lolwut. How many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? [This post has been deleted by a marshal.] I don't know how many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I bet its a few plus StCrinklyfin to delete everything he dosent like based on some odd logic He does have some very strange ideas...  He has wound himself into such a racist fervour now that he can use any term as a racist slur... I say marshmallow... his little fascist brain hears "kill the pinks!"
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 22, 2014, 9:22 pm	*Bigspenner* said: Groovelle said: Quote: Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. , lolwut. How many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? [This post has been deleted by a marshal.] I don't know how many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I bet its a few plus StAwsome to delete everything he dosent like based on some odd logic I didn't delete anything here.  If you look at the "last edited by" line you will see no one edited the post at all(or hadn't when I last looked at it) and that the allegedly deleted section was part of Groovelle's Joke. (Deleted due to blasphemy, particularly offensive at Christmas)
*Bigspenner* Posted Dec 22, 2014, 11:54 pm	I never said you did. I meant no offense I was merely carrying on the joke. Maybe we should get back on topic. What was it again? Did I mention I really like Darkwind
*Boonwolf* Posted Dec 23, 2014, 4:32 am	goat starer said: *Bigspenner* said: Groovelle said: Quote: Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. , lolwut. How many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? [This post has been deleted by a marshal.] I don't know how many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I bet its a few plus StCrinklyfin to delete everything he dosent like based on some odd logic He does have some very strange ideas...  He has wound himself into such a racist fervour now that he can use any term as a racist slur... I say marshmallow... his little fascist brain hears "kill the pinks!" Marshmallow!!  You calling us Marshmallows now I may be white but I'm not fat and soft.
*K1500* Posted Dec 23, 2014, 6:31 am	*Bigspenner* said: Can you imagine just how nerdy one would have to be to study "nerd interrelationships" <coughs> Hmmm that kind of summarises at least 2 papers I've had in journals. K
*goat starer* Posted Dec 23, 2014, 8:55 am	*Boonwolf* said: goat starer said: *Bigspenner* said: Groovelle said: Quote: Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. , lolwut. How many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? [This post has been deleted by a marshal.] I don't know how many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I bet its a few plus StCrinklyfin to delete everything he dosent like based on some odd logic He does have some very strange ideas...  He has wound himself into such a racist fervour now that he can use any term as a racist slur... I say marshmallow... his little fascist brain hears "kill the pinks!" Marshmallow!!  You calling us Marshmallows now I may be white but I'm not fat and soft.  Bigspenner is
*Bigspenner* Posted Dec 23, 2014, 9:19 am	goat starer said: *Boonwolf* said: goat starer said: *Bigspenner* said: Groovelle said: Quote: Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. , lolwut. How many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? [This post has been deleted by a marshal.] I don't know how many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I bet its a few plus StCrinklyfin to delete everything he dosent like based on some odd logic He does have some very strange ideas...  He has wound himself into such a racist fervour now that he can use any term as a racist slur... I say marshmallow... his little fascist brain hears "kill the pinks!" Marshmallow!!  You calling us Marshmallows now I may be white but I'm not fat and soft.  Bigspenner is Although some would describe me as successfully well nourished.
Racing Robbie Posted Dec 23, 2014, 9:24 am	*Bigspenner* said: goat starer said: *Boonwolf* said: goat starer said: *Bigspenner* said: Groovelle said: Quote: Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. , lolwut. How many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? [This post has been deleted by a marshal.] I don't know how many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I bet its a few plus StCrinklyfin to delete everything he dosent like based on some odd logic He does have some very strange ideas...  He has wound himself into such a racist fervour now that he can use any term as a racist slur... I say marshmallow... his little fascist brain hears "kill the pinks!" Marshmallow!!  You calling us Marshmallows now I may be white but I'm not fat and soft.  Bigspenner is Although some would describe me as successfully well nourished. And others would say that you generate your own gravity field.... PS Not me that is, I'm just quoting
*goat starer* Posted Dec 23, 2014, 12:41 pm	Racing Robbie said: *Bigspenner* said: goat starer said: *Boonwolf* said: goat starer said: *Bigspenner* said: Groovelle said: Quote: Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. , lolwut. How many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? [This post has been deleted by a marshal.] I don't know how many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I bet its a few plus StCrinklyfin to delete everything he dosent like based on some odd logic He does have some very strange ideas...  He has wound himself into such a racist fervour now that he can use any term as a racist slur... I say marshmallow... his little fascist brain hears "kill the pinks!" Marshmallow!!  You calling us Marshmallows now I may be white but I'm not fat and soft.  Bigspenner is Although some would describe me as successfully well nourished. And others would say that you generate your own gravity field.... PS Not me that is, I'm just quoting What I said was Big is very attractive... Probably gravity He is the only person I know to have a moon.
*Bigspenner* Posted Dec 23, 2014, 1:06 pm	goat starer said: Racing Robbie said: *Bigspenner* said: goat starer said: *Boonwolf* said: goat starer said: *Bigspenner* said: Groovelle said: Quote: Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. , lolwut. How many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? [This post has been deleted by a marshal.] I don't know how many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I bet its a few plus StCrinklyfin to delete everything he dosent like based on some odd logic He does have some very strange ideas...  He has wound himself into such a racist fervour now that he can use any term as a racist slur... I say marshmallow... his little fascist brain hears "kill the pinks!" Marshmallow!!  You calling us Marshmallows now I may be white but I'm not fat and soft.  Bigspenner is Although some would describe me as successfully well nourished. And others would say that you generate your own gravity field.... PS Not me that is, I'm just quoting What I said was Big is very attractive... Probably gravity He is the only person I know to have a moon. However what you meant was "Big is very attractive and I wish he was my boyfriend" This is backed up by the attention you pay me the flowers you send me and the poetry you have written me. But no Goat, even if I was a homosexual chap or even bi-curious I am afraid I would still be out of your league. I am neither of these things however as I mainly sleep with root vegetables.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 23, 2014, 4:08 pm	*Bigspenner* said: goat starer said: Racing Robbie said: *Bigspenner* said: goat starer said: *Boonwolf* said: goat starer said: *Bigspenner* said: Groovelle said: Quote: Is that some cultural referance I don't get? Because calling someone "Ace" in America is usually meant as a pejorative remark at best, or a racial slur at worst. , lolwut. How many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? [This post has been deleted by a marshal.] I don't know how many forum posters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I bet its a few plus StCrinklyfin to delete everything he dosent like based on some odd logic He does have some very strange ideas...  He has wound himself into such a racist fervour now that he can use any term as a racist slur... I say marshmallow... his little fascist brain hears "kill the pinks!" Marshmallow!!  You calling us Marshmallows now I may be white but I'm not fat and soft.  Bigspenner is Although some would describe me as successfully well nourished. And others would say that you generate your own gravity field.... PS Not me that is, I'm just quoting What I said was Big is very attractive... Probably gravity He is the only person I know to have a moon. However what you meant was "Big is very attractive and I wish he was my boyfriend" This is backed up by the attention you pay me the flowers you send me and the poetry you have written me. But no Goat, even if I was a homosexual chap or even bi-curious I am afraid I would still be out of your league. I am neither of these things however as I mainly sleep with root vegetables. As the police keep telling you a restraining order is not poetry.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 26, 2014, 4:33 pm	So let me see if I understand this right... Darkwind isn't going to get any of the existing bugs fixed and nothing new is going to be added. your handing out coffin nails?
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 26, 2014, 11:45 pm	Grimm Sykes said: So let me see if I understand this right... Darkwind isn't going to get any of the existing bugs fixed and nothing new is going to be added. your handing out coffin nails? It probably wasn't the best PR decision to say the game "wasn't worth" the time to add new content based on it not being any more "successful than it already is" or whatever the quote said.  That does put nails in coffins for most games and it did coincide with quite a few new players dissapearing.  I figure they were deciding wether or not to sub.  But maybe they left because this want the game for them, rather than the feeling that the game wasn't going to progress or get any closer to completion. (And though I see DW as not complete:  Merely a client that allows access to the tactical combat portion of a larger game, I don't think the current iteration can achieve complete form.  It really requires a rewrite from scratch, addressing the complaints from fresh players and vets alike which Grimm listed earlier, along with others he didn't mention). Wether it would progress or not, I wouldn't have stated it wasn't worth the time to add new content.  Even if it were true, that's bad PR and certainly won't have a positive effect on the game (or future games).  Many Devs I've known over the years ended up with bad reputations for releasing too soon, or ending support for a game or for whatever.  Look at Stardock for an examples of how dropping a game that was too hard to "fix" gave them a rep for producing unfinished games and then abandoning them 5 or 6 years later, impacts the sales on their new games.  Galactic Civilizations III has had to go the route of "early access" just to pay for its development since there is more skepticism than faith except with hardcore supporters.
*Bigspenner* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 1:01 am	Get a grip and stop bitching, this is an indie game and its what it is, great if you like that sort of thing. If you don't like it go away and if you do play it and be positive I am sick of hearing this constant whining.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 27, 2014, 3:32 am	*Bigspenner* said: Get a grip and stop bitching, this is an indie game and its what it is, great if you like that sort of thing. If you don't like it go away and if you do play it and be positive I am sick of hearing this constant whining. I didn't see anyone whining. I did see concern for the well being of this game as well as any future releases.  As for Stardock: Personally I'm a fan of all of Stardock's games with the exception of Galactic Civilizations. Oh, Speaking of future projects is your game "Critical Hit" made into an MMO instead of a single player game still in the list of "to do"?
*goat starer* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 4:07 am	Pages and pages of whining thinly disguised as 'concern' crispy. You have three choices... 1. Be quiet and enjoy it 2. bugger off 3. get the dream team of you, krakk, Grimm and Emily's programmer mates together... Make Sam an offer for the game... Fix if in 30 minutes... And all live together in a wonderful utopia of joy. Or yoh can keep whining and mewling for another year and we can have this conversation again next christmas.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 27, 2014, 4:55 am	The word "Mates" in this country is offensive by the way. It means "sexual partner". I realize it's an Anglicism meaning "non-gender biased close relationship" where you are, but I find it insulting. So you are saying when I get IMs on Steam from concerned individuals thinking about joining the game or subbing that I should tell them "shut up or bugger off"? I'm not sure that's wise. Plus Bugger itself is also is offensive. I'm not going to tell people to either shut up or be a homosexual. That would be rude. I don't care if Sam works anymore on DW. But saying the game isn't worth working on, without prefacing it with WHY or segueing into the fact that it really would need a rewrite to be competitive in any way today, just seems like bad business sense. Plus I have people asking me about it on Steam and I just keep telling them to try it out and not let a little thing like the possibility of no updates get them down.
Groovelle Posted Dec 27, 2014, 5:54 am	Ok, ok, ok. One forum poster to screw it in wrong. Another forum poster to bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch. Quote: The word "Mates" in this country is offensive by the way. It means "sexual partner" Crispin, come on. This is a global society  now, everyone knows what mates means. And I'm from the citiest urban area in America
Bill Butcher Cutting Posted Dec 27, 2014, 6:33 am	Groovelle said: Quote: The word "Mates" in this country is offensive by the way. It means "sexual partner" Crispin, come on. This is a global society  now, everyone knows what mates means. And I'm from the citiest urban area in America Ditto. I'm in Houston Texas, in the oil business, speak to counterparts around the globe daily and have never heard of 'mate' used in a derogatory way. Your claim is very thin at best.
*Awefense* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 6:37 am	Groovelle said: bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch. Totally off topic, but this South Park moment was the first thing I thought of when I read this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hXgAYku2PA
*K1500* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 6:41 am	*StCrispin* said: Plus Bugger itself is also is offensive.  I'm not going to tell people to either shut up or be a homosexual.  That would be rude. Welcome to my culture. http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/bugger-toyota-hilux-commercial-1999 K
*goat starer* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 6:53 am	Awefense said: Groovelle said: bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch. Totally off topic, but this South Park moment was the first thing I thought of when I read this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hXgAYku2PA Watch it awf... That could set our resident nazi off. Cracking song though...
*goat starer* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 6:58 am	*K1500* said: *StCrispin* said: Plus Bugger itself is also is offensive.  I'm not going to tell people to either shut up or be a homosexual.  That would be rude. Welcome to my culture. http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/bugger-toyota-hilux-commercial-1999 K I don't think anyone will be terribly surprised to find that Advertisinv Standards people in New Zealand have a better grasp of reality than crispy. When they show Four Weddings and a Funeral pre watershed they swap all the Knrls at the start for buggers... That said they also use the word mate... Crispy must be having fits. The word mate to connote friends was first used in the 14th century... I rather suspect that however hard he looks crispy wont be able to see anything man made from his window that is that old. The crew of the Mayflower would have called one another mate.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 7:03 am	*StCrispin* said: So you are saying when I get IMs on Steam from concerned individuals thinking about joining the game or subbing that I should tell them "shut up or bugger off"?  I'm not sure that's wise. I don't care if Sam works anymore on DW.  But saying the game isn't worth working on, without prefacing it with WHY or segueing into the fact that it really would need a rewrite to be competitive in any way today, just seems like bad business sense.  Plus I have people asking me about it on Steam and I just keep telling them to try it out and not let a little thing like the possibility of no updates get them down. When people ask you if they should sub on steam you tell them to play it see if they like if and sub if they do. If they don't like it they can bugger off... Just as if you don't like it you can bugger off. If I didn't like if I would bugger off. Or you can waste your short passage of time on this earth whinging and moaning about stuff rather than getting on and enjoying it. It's really up to you but the latter choice is not conducive to the happiness of you or anyone around you, Think on it.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 27, 2014, 8:39 am	Bill Butcher Cutting said: Groovelle said: Quote: The word "Mates" in this country is offensive by the way. It means "sexual partner" Crispin, come on. This is a global society  now, everyone knows what mates means. And I'm from the citiest urban area in America Ditto. I'm in Houston Texas, in the oil business, speak to counterparts around the globe daily and have never heard of 'mate' used in a derogatory way. Your claim is very thin at best. The point is Goat is very aware of which Anglicism can be interpreted as harmless to one and yet still imply some offensive connotation in a veiled manner.  Like when Bush senior flashed the peace sign in Australia way back when and it was equivalent of calling them Pussys because it wasn't facing the right direction but Americans were like "Huh?  WTF?" It seems he is so inflamed that he sits there imagining me raging over his snide remarks.  When in fact I could care less as they are totally off topic and, as is his calling card, add nothing to the topic except "Nay, I Say! Nay!" Yes that was supposed to be Monty Python.  I think of the "Knights that Say Nay" skit every time I read Goats posts.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 9:49 am	*StCrispin* said: Bill Butcher Cutting said: Groovelle said: Quote: The word "Mates" in this country is offensive by the way. It means "sexual partner" Crispin, come on. This is a global society  now, everyone knows what mates means. And I'm from the citiest urban area in America Ditto. I'm in Houston Texas, in the oil business, speak to counterparts around the globe daily and have never heard of 'mate' used in a derogatory way. Your claim is very thin at best. The point is Goat is very aware of which Anglicism can be interpreted as harmless to one and yet still imply some offensive connotation in a veiled manner.  Like when Bush senior flashed the peace sign in Australia way back when and it was equivalent of calling them Pussys because it wasn't facing the right direction but Americans were like "Huh?  WTF?" It seems he is so inflamed that he sits there imagining me raging over his snide remarks.  When in fact I could care less as they are totally off topic and, as is his calling card, add nothing to the topic except "Nay, I Say! Nay!" Yes that was supposed to be Monty Python.  I think of the "Knights that Say Nay" skit every time I read Goats posts. Your point is that you are an idiot.... A quick google search finds people in Illinois using the word mate... You are living in a fabulous world of imaginary slurs and battles. Have you ever looked up your brothers screen name in the urban dictionary? That should get you going... Or try looking up "crispin" ... My god... How you can abuse yourself with that name is beyond me (although some of it was strangely accurate)  And it's "the Knights Who Say Ni" you plank... If it was the Knights who say nay that would be a real word and the joke you abjectly missed would not work at all.
*Bastille* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 12:35 pm	oh dear. Merry f....... christmas everyone!
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 27, 2014, 1:46 pm	*StCrispin* said: The word "Mates" in this country is offensive by the way.  It means "sexual partner".  I realize it's an Anglicism meaning "non-gender biased close relationship" where you are, but I find it insulting. So you are saying when I get IMs on Steam from concerned individuals thinking about joining the game or subbing that I should tell them "shut up or bugger off"?  I'm not sure that's wise. Plus Bugger itself is also is offensive.  I'm not going to tell people to either shut up or be a homosexual.  That would be rude. I don't care if Sam works anymore on DW.  But saying the game isn't worth working on, without prefacing it with WHY or segueing into the fact that it really would need a rewrite to be competitive in any way today, just seems like bad business sense.  Plus I have people asking me about it on Steam and I just keep telling them to try it out and not let a little thing like the possibility of no updates get them down. I'm not whining, i just find it disturbing that Sam claims the game is complete and has for years, while it has glaring holes. In america we have a saying, a monkey in a suit, is just a monkey in a suit. Meaning that no matter how you dress something up, it still is what it is, and darkwind is... bugged and incomplete. I had always assumed a game developer would want to find bugs and fix them, not to pretend they don't exist, ignore them, and let his moderators insult anyone who points at the bugs.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 2:24 pm	*Bastille* said: oh dear. Merry f....... christmas everyone! Happy Christmas bas!
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 27, 2014, 4:16 pm	*Bastille* said: oh dear. Merry f....... christmas everyone! Merry facetious christmas?
Bill Butcher Cutting Posted Dec 27, 2014, 6:04 pm	Guys, Look at it from Sam's point of view. He spent many many hours trying to fix issues and add unappreciated content before and after the Steam launch and didn't see the huge crowds sticking around as he hoped and is subsequently burned the hell out. Give him a few months to chill and he should be back to where he was before Steam was green-lit.
*Bigspenner* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 9:00 pm	Ha Ha Ha I believe StCronkplonk is a synonym for halfwit. lol *StCrispin* said: The word "Mates" in this country is offensive by the way.  It means "sexual partner".  I realize it's an Anglicism meaning "non-gender biased close relationship" where you are, but I find it insulting. So you are saying when I get IMs on Steam from concerned individuals thinking about joining the game or subbing that I should tell them "shut up or bugger off"?  I'm not sure that's wise. Plus Bugger itself is also is offensive.  I'm not going to tell people to either shut up or be a homosexual.  That would be rude. I don't care if Sam works anymore on DW.  But saying the game isn't worth working on, without prefacing it with WHY or segueing into the fact that it really would need a rewrite to be competitive in any way today, just seems like bad business sense.  Plus I have people asking me about it on Steam and I just keep telling them to try it out and not let a little thing like the possibility of no updates get them down.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 27, 2014, 11:19 pm	Crispin is German. It means curly hair. It could also refer to St. Crispin. The (4th century?) shoemaker who upset the emperor or king or whatever the ruler called himself, and was sunk in a river with a mill stone. He failed to sink so they fished him out and put on a 2nd mill stone. He failed to sink still, so the shot him full of arrows. He then exited the river downstream. Here the story takes 2 forms. One says he was yet again recaptured and to ensure he died, they cut his head off. The other says he and his brother fled to England. Warriors of the Middle Ages would pray to St Crispin before battle to give them "skin as tough as the leather of shoes" and to make them impervious to arrows. Besides, I'm using a psychotherapy technique on Goat to see if he really read Ronson's book on Psycopathy and the Hare Checklist as he indirectly claims ("I've read all his books"). I tire of it though so I'll consider my theory on the subject fully explored. Plus it derails this thread. Which isn't nice.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 27, 2014, 11:49 pm	*StCrispin* said: Crispin is German.  It means curly hair. It could also refer to St. Crispin.  The (4th century?) shoemaker who upset the emperor or king or whatever the ruler called himself, and was sunk in a river with a mill stone.  He failed to sink so they fished him out and put on a 2nd mill stone.  He failed to sink still, so the shot him full of arrows.  He then exited the river downstream.  Here the story takes 2 forms.  One says he was yet again recaptured and to ensure he died, they cut his head off.  The other says he and his brother fled to England.  Warriors of the Middle Ages would pray to St Crispin before battle to give them "skin as tough as the leather of shoes" and to make them impervious to arrows. Has anyone noticed that I'm using a psychotherapy technique on Goat to see if he really read Ronson's book on Psycopathy and the Hare Checklist as he indirectly claims ("I've read all his books").  I tire of it though so I'll consider my theory on the subject fully explored. Plus it derails this thread.  Which isn't nice. i dont think you have read his book or hares test but you are demonstrating quite a few of the traits.. that last line in itself would be setting the hare meter wiggling one of the few psychopath elements the Bond films get right is the propensity to try to explain how they are being clever.... rather than just being clever... which is self evident. They worry that people might be missing their 'brilliance'. Familiar StGoldfinger.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 28, 2014, 12:41 am	I can't tell if the two of you are arguing, or just stroking each others egos... or both at the same time
Groovelle Posted Dec 28, 2014, 1:48 am	If Sam does do a spinoff of Dark-wind I hope he makes the world scavvy. If'n I had more time and skill I'd be all over scav.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 28, 2014, 11:30 am	Groovelle said: If Sam does do a spinoff  of Dark-wind I hope he makes the world scavvy. If'n I had more time and skill I'd be all over scav. yeah... cant see it happening but it would be Groovy
Groovelle Posted Dec 28, 2014, 8:58 pm	I just always thought, if I have a 300 skill mech, why can't he fix his own car, why does everyone in town rely on the overpriced Jake's. Just imagining a whole city with one and only one shop fixing everything seemed wrong to me. Thus, each gang functioning as a mini-camp.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 28, 2014, 9:29 pm	Groovelle said: I just always thought, if I have a 300 skill mech, why can't he fix his own car, why does everyone in town rely on the overpriced Jake's. Just imagining a whole city with one and only one shop fixing everything seemed wrong to me. Thus, each gang functioning as a mini-camp. yeah... a realy dynamic parts economy and vehicles much more dependent on the quality of looted parts would have been cool
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 29, 2014, 2:02 am	Groovelle said: I just always thought, if I have a 300 skill mech, why can't he fix his own car, why does everyone in town rely on the overpriced Jake's. Just imagining a whole city with one and only one shop fixing everything seemed wrong to me. Thus, each gang functioning as a mini-camp. I suggested this 2 years ago.  Others suggested this since then.  Certain players were against it and said if we wanted to have that type of gameplay to come play Scav instead, otherwise shut up.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 29, 2014, 2:22 am	*StCrispin* said: Groovelle said: I just always thought, if I have a 300 skill mech, why can't he fix his own car, why does everyone in town rely on the overpriced Jake's. Just imagining a whole city with one and only one shop fixing everything seemed wrong to me. Thus, each gang functioning as a mini-camp. I suggested this 2 years ago.  Others suggested this since then.  Certain players were against it and said if we wanted to have that type of gameplay to come play Scav instead, otherwise shut up. Explaining your greatness again there.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 29, 2014, 2:44 am	goat starer said: Groovelle said: I just always thought, if I have a 300 skill mech, why can't he fix his own car, why does everyone in town rely on the overpriced Jake's. Just imagining a whole city with one and only one shop fixing everything seemed wrong to me. Thus, each gang functioning as a mini-camp. yeah... a realy dynamic parts economy and vehicles much more dependent on the quality of looted parts would have been cool This I also suggested around the time of steam release.  Sam shot this one down himself.  Not sure why.  Probably difficulty of keeping track of it all in the database or some recoding of the way it was stored.  Probably made more work than it was worth.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 29, 2014, 2:57 am	I think both ideas would be pretty sweet minor changes. Right along with the AI re-using cars that they took from us and our ability to try to take them back or track down their pirate camp by hunting and tort... I mean "interrogating" them in an "Enhanced" way. Then raiding it.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 29, 2014, 3:04 am	*StCrispin* said: goat starer said: Groovelle said: I just always thought, if I have a 300 skill mech, why can't he fix his own car, why does everyone in town rely on the overpriced Jake's. Just imagining a whole city with one and only one shop fixing everything seemed wrong to me. Thus, each gang functioning as a mini-camp. yeah... a realy dynamic parts economy and vehicles much more dependent on the quality of looted parts would have been cool This I also suggested around the time of steam release.  Sam shot this one down himself.  Not sure why.  Probably difficulty of keeping track of it all in the database or some recoding of the way it was stored.  Probably made more work than it was worth. Your perpiscuity and insight are boundless... If somewhat derivative and late in the day