Darkwind
Premium training centres

*sam*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 4:10 pm
Advanced training centres have now been added to the game (as announced earlier in the summer). 


The most important bits:

- Premium players' characters get weekly 'offline' training (i.e. in addition to whatever they get from events). This can be taken for free, in which case all you need to do is select the skill you want each character to train, from one of the town training centres
- By paying DW$500/week, a character gets to use training facilities and therefore accelerated offline training. Again, this only works for Premium players
- By paying CHR5 or CHR10 per week, a character gets further improved offline training through use of training facilities and personal trainers. This is available to all players, Premium or Free. Obviously the CHR10 option gives the best possible offline training, although it is *not* twice as good as the CHR5 option.
- Characters' skillcaps are not changed by offline training of any sort. I.e. it helps them advance faster but doesn't affect their final potential.

Some more details:

- The concept of 'time out of town' has been removed, so therefore all characters get full training regardless of how much travel etc. they have done in the week.
- However, activity level remain as a factor, as it does with most activities that characters do. I.e. if a character is at 80% activity level, then their offline training is only 80% effective.
- Another factor which remains is 'training form', which is a hidden stat reflecting how well each character is training at the moment. It fluctuates over a period of weeks/months. It has been reduced in importance however (since earlier this summer) so offline training is less unpredictable than it used to be.
- The concept of some towns not having training centres at all has been removed.. what this means in practice is that use of training facilities will no longer be paused if the character is in a camp or truckstop on a Friday morning when offline training happens.
- Each town remains more effective at training in some skills and less effective in others. Camps are generally not very effective except for mechanic skill.

The numbers:

Assuming free offline training has a relative training speed of 1.0 unit per week, then:
- DW$500/week training gives a relative training speed of 2.0 units
- CHR5/week gives a relative training speed of 3.75 units
- CHR10/week gives a relative training speed of 4.5 units

- The actual meaning of 'x units' is specific to a character and their training form. As a character gets close to their skillcap, training always slows down. Their training form also has an effect (positive or negative) as does the town they're in and the skill they're training
Ragnak


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 4:39 pm
In all fairness, I think you have to flesh out a bit more what each of the training options means. I don't mind having hidden rules and factors when we only had one training option because it was what it was. However, when you branch into actual money transaction for chrome and offer faster training, you need to better define how each level distinguishes itself. How exactly does the 5 chrome version of training separate itself from standard premium training?

Case in point, I have over 60 gangers which would equate to over 600 chrome for top training per week..... and I don't have any clue what that gives me over and above the standard training. Would you spend over $7 each week to buy chrome for a feature not defined well in a game?
*Boonwolf*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 4:45 pm
Maybe a x% bump on given skill gains rather than bet the blind. Real money for unknown don't sit well with people.
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 4:50 pm
Another factor is letting players know that this accelerated training will or will not affect a characters skill cap.
*sam*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 5:05 pm
*The X Man* said:
Another factor is letting players know that this accelerated training will or will not affect a characters skill cap.


ok, done.
*sam*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 5:05 pm
*Boonwolf* said:
Maybe a x% bump on given skill gains rather than bet the blind.  Real money for unknown don't sit well with people.


OK, I'll add this. At least it's not giving away actual numbers directly.
Ragnak


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 5:22 pm
Thank you sir. Perhaps you might consider a gang toggle which would allow all gangers for a subscriber to have everyone trained at a chrome discount.
*Longo*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 5:37 pm
Sam -
I am not sure if this is the intent, but has caused some confusion with me on this topic -

I look in the training center and it says I have 70 of 71 gangers training at the $500/week level. I have no idea which guy I am missing. He must be in a town or camp where there isnt a training center? Having to drive every one of my gang members not in SS, Elms, Texan, or Sars to a training Center to find this 1 guy would be horrible. Is there another way to find this guy?

Also, can I only change the training option for a ganger if he is in a town with a training center? Again, see the considerable inconvenience that this would generate as per explain in the paragraph above.

Can this be fixed?
*sam*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 5:52 pm
*Longo* said:
Sam -
I am not sure if this is the intent, but has caused some confusion with me on this topic -

I look in the training center and it says I have 70 of 71 gangers training at the $500/week level. I have no idea which guy I am missing. He must be in a town or camp where there isnt a training center? Having to drive every one of my gang members not in SS, Elms, Texan, or Sars to a training Center to find this 1 guy would be horrible. Is there another way to find this guy?

Also, can I only change the training option for a ganger if he is in a town with a training center? Again, see the considerable inconvenience that this would generate as per explain in the paragraph above.

Can this be fixed?


I have thrown in a quick link that lets you see the characters in each group
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 5:54 pm
Longo, next to the number of characters training is a link [who?], you should be able to click this and see all who are training. Then you should notice the name of who is not. I just tried that link on my page and that link is not working. Hopefully Sam can verify this is the way to check your crew and who is actually training.
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 5:55 pm
Sam is fast and on the ball today, link now works!
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 5:57 pm
Another training question Sam. Will accelerated rehab training be included? If so, will the amounts be the same or cost more since it is technically a medical facility? Just IMO, it should be included because it IS something we select and choose to train in and pay for.
*Longo*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 6:19 pm
Ok, the new feature is good.

But I want to spend Chrome on 2 of my guys in GW right now. I cant get the option to change their training without driving to SS. Same with any of my 20+ guys in camp. :(
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 6:31 pm
*Longo* said:
Ok, the new feature is good.

But I want to spend Chrome on 2 of my guys in GW right now. I cant get the option to change their training without driving to SS. Same with any of my 20+ guys in camp.    :(


I am pretty sure you can only change to chrome training in a town that has a training center.
*Longo*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 6:38 pm
*The X Man* said:
*Longo* said:
Ok, the new feature is good.

But I want to spend Chrome on 2 of my guys in GW right now. I cant get the option to change their training without driving to SS. Same with any of my 20+ guys in camp.    :(


I am pretty sure you can only change to chrome training in a town that has a training center.


At this point, it appears so.
But considering that with my gang alone, Sam would be potentially losing 710 Chrome(approx $10.50 US, 7.50 Euros) sales a week, maybe he would like this option more accessible?
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 7:07 pm
Ok.

I am a non-premium. I spend 5 Chr per week on a character. What is the likely effect.

There is no point in it providing a multiplier to my training as non-premium skill rises due to training has up to now been zero.

I am putting it on one low skill driver in SS as a test but I'd like some indication on what it is going to do. It would also be useful top know the ranges of skill increases that are likely to be seen from the various options.

All this under the bonnet stuff was fine when we had no control over it and the only choice was what you trained, if you are able to choose your level of training that choice needs to be informed, especially if I have to fork out Chrome for which I have to pay real money for.

I presume if I say I am paying the $500 per week and am not premium that training boost wont happen and the money won't be debited either.
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 8:05 pm
*Longo* said:
*The X Man* said:
*Longo* said:
Ok, the new feature is good.

But I want to spend Chrome on 2 of my guys in GW right now. I cant get the option to change their training without driving to SS. Same with any of my 20+ guys in camp.    :(


I am pretty sure you can only change to chrome training in a town that has a training center.


At this point, it appears so.
But considering that with my gang alone, Sam would be potentially losing 710 Chrome(approx $10.50 US, 7.50 Euros) sales a week, maybe he would like this option more accessible?


More than have your gang is in SS or ELMS, so just your DW and camp guys would be unavailable for chrome training. So you have plenty of characters to spend your chrome on  :rolleyes:

I understand your point, but that's where choices come into play. Do they stay at camp and build rare stuff or get accelerated training in town instead. Its kind of like picking a specialism, sniper or machine guns? They both have their advantages, but you can only pick one.

I keep guys in SV, BL and GW for scouting because I can get better loot there, but the trade off for that is no chrome training. Different scenarios with different perks.

A few more player opinions on this may help come up with some new ideas.
Joel Autobaun


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 8:25 pm
I think casual play just took one in the nuts. I guess rather... if you dont want to scout your face off...you'd better shine up your chrome. Actually I guess scout as much as you like since it doesnt affect training form. Ugg... juan is happy... drive all over evan in 40 squads and max out scout in a week then get full training.

Sorry...I am.... this just doesn't sit well amd I have to add more than just 2c.

Sam are you using the rules council or running this stuff past any longer termers? I think you need a test environment and im sure youd get volunteers to test changes in game as well.
*Longo*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 9:53 pm
*The X Man* said:
*Longo* said:
*The X Man* said:
*Longo* said:
Ok, the new feature is good.

But I want to spend Chrome on 2 of my guys in GW right now. I cant get the option to change their training without driving to SS. Same with any of my 20+ guys in camp.    :(


I am pretty sure you can only change to chrome training in a town that has a training center.


At this point, it appears so.
But considering that with my gang alone, Sam would be potentially losing 710 Chrome(approx $10.50 US, 7.50 Euros) sales a week, maybe he would like this option more accessible?


More than have your gang is in SS or ELMS, so just your DW and camp guys would be unavailable for chrome training. So you have plenty of characters to spend your chrome on  :rolleyes:

I understand your point, but that's where choices come into play. Do they stay at camp and build rare stuff or get accelerated training in town instead. Its kind of like picking a specialism, sniper or machine guns? They both have their advantages, but you can only pick one.

I keep guys in SV, BL and GW for scouting because I can get better loot there, but the trade off for that is no chrome training. Different scenarios with different perks.

A few more player opinions on this may help come up with some new ideas.


X-

I appreciate you letting me know how you play DW, however I do not play your style and would like to play my own way. So, if I could hear from Sam rather than you interjecting your thoughts on how I should play DW, I would very much appreciate it.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 5, 2014, 10:15 pm
Joel Autobaun said:
I think casual play just took one in the nuts.  I guess rather... if you dont want to scout your face off...you'd better shine up your chrome.  Actually I guess scout as much as you like since it doesnt affect training form.  Ugg... juan is happy... drive all over evan in 40 squads and max out scout in a week then get full training.

Sorry...I am.... this just doesn't sit well amd I have to add more than just 2c.

Sam are you using the rules council or running this stuff past any longer termers?  I think you need a test environment and im sure youd get volunteers to test changes in game as well.


I have to tentatively side with Joel on this.  While I think SOME sort of Chrome Training should exist, I have a sinking feeling that this creates a pay to win environment from a new player perspective or at the least a "milking machine" feature.

I also have concerned feelings about the removal of town specific training centers but am glad it will mean camps won't have as large of a training gap (a lot of my camp guys with motivator 4 in camp only got 2 points every 3 weeks for a total of 2/3 of a point per week average).

I'm not necessarily strongly against, but I have an uneasy feeling about it.  It also feels like it removes a lot of depth.

I STRONGLY DISLIKE the removal of the effects of Travel Time!.  However, with that being removed how about an EXHAUSTION LEVEL that is like the activity % which indicates the gangers focus?  If my guy scouted 18 of the past 24 hours and did this every day of the week, he won't be paying a lot of attention in "class"
d0dger


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 10:32 pm
So essentially:

Subscriber 500 DW$/week = 100% training gain.
Anyone 5 Chrome/week = 275% training gain.
Anyone 10 Chrome/week = 350% training gain.

AKA (on average):
Free training will cap 2 skills in the time that
DW$ training will cap 4 skills in the time that
5CHR training will cap 5.5 skills in the time that
10CHR training will cap 9 skills (do we have that many?)

Ok, checked and we only have 10 skills + PSI

Just seems a bit steep to me. Anyone else?
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 5, 2014, 10:51 pm
How does Motivator factor in?

Example: previously with Training Center and Mot4 I would gain between 4 and 6 "free" skill points.

Does this mean with 10 CHR I will gain 14 to 21?
d0dger


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 11:03 pm
Not knowing how the old premium bonus numbers compare to these we can't say. Actually we also don't know if these bonuses are applied before or after or cumulatively or exponentially with the affects of training form and city bonuses so I suppose the ratios above may only apply to that portion of the training and not be quite so varied in the final result...
*K1500*


Posted Sep 5, 2014, 11:05 pm
*StCrispin* said:
How does Motivator factor in?

Example: previously with Training Center and Mot4 I would gain between 4 and 6 "free" skill points.

Does this mean with 10 CHR I will gain 14 to 21?


How the hell do you guys get such training - even with a MOT5 most of my guys will get (on average) 1 or 2 points a week in a town (SS) with a training centre. Places like BL & GW (which have no training centre) I average between 0 and 1.

Personally anything more than 4 points from (non-active) training seems like to much to me (excluding things like training vouchers from SCL).

K
Bolt Thrower


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 12:58 am
*K1500* said:
*StCrispin* said:
How does Motivator factor in?

Example: previously with Training Center and Mot4 I would gain between 4 and 6 "free" skill points.

Does this mean with 10 CHR I will gain 14 to 21?


How the hell do you guys get such training - even with a MOT5 most of my guys will get (on average) 1 or 2 points a week in a town (SS) with a training centre. Places like BL & GW (which have no training centre) I average between 0 and 1.

Personally anything more than 4 points from (non-active) training seems like to much to me (excluding things like training vouchers from SCL).

K


Things may have changed:
http://www.darkwindwiki.com/index.php?title=Skills

down under training is a table.  With motivator 5, you should be doing better.  I have a few characters with really bad training form, but have been getting 2-5 points for most guys, even with the changes Sam made.
goat starer


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 1:06 am
i always think you guys are crazy an cant tell the difference between field and training camp training.

i have had a lot of characters doing nothing in SS whilst i have been scavenging... they have been in the training camp and i checked them regularly.. the results have always been between 1 and 3 points a week. never more.

always remember that the wiki is written by the same people you dont believe when they write stuff here... its a wiki...



New training changes are great... there must have been a bit of a suprise at the price hike but thats good... nice one sam.
*K1500*


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 1:57 am
*StCrispin* said:

Things may have changed:
http://www.darkwindwiki.com/index.php?title=Skills

down under training is a table.  With motivator 5, you should be doing better.  I have a few characters with really bad training form, but have been getting 2-5 points for most guys, even with the changes Sam made.


Well that all looks pretty much the same (in terms of what towns train what) as it's always has been. I have had the odd (once every couple of months) occasion when a ganger may get 4 points in something, but that's usually down in TX. This was the reason I shifted quite a few people down to TX from BL, because a number of them just were not getting anything from training BL and I didn't scout there often enough to keep a force that size there.

I just double checked with my SS characters who I haven't used since the weekly update. All training in non-specialised skills, all using the training centre - 7 of them got 1 point, 1 got 2 points. Maybe all my guys have just really crap training form at the moment.

Personally (and I stress that this isn't an a suggestion of how the game should be - that's a decision for Sam) I find the idea of getting 8 points in a week for training way to much. However that's just me.

K
Bolt Thrower


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 2:17 am
I had 2 or 3 mechs is SF getting 5-8 points for awhile with a motivator 1. But I had a couple that only got 1 or 2 points. I have had drivers in SS get 8 points also.

Goat, I check at update before they have gotten any field training for the week.
d0dger


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 3:52 am
goat starer said:
i always think you guys are crazy an cant tell the difference between field and training camp training.

i have had a lot of characters doing nothing in SS whilst i have been scavenging... they have been in the training camp and i checked them regularly.. the results have always been between 1 and 3 points a week. never more.

always remember that the wiki is written by the same people you dont believe when they write stuff here... its a wiki...

New training changes are great... there must have been a bit of a suprise at the price hike but thats good... nice one sam.


Pretty easy to discern as after training before you do any events with the ganger the profile sheet shows the amount of gain from training and nothing else... Hand Guns    120 (116) This character gained 4 skill in training this week... Cyclist    33 (26) This guy got 7 in Cyclist in SS... it's not rocket science.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 6, 2014, 4:13 am
I haven't looked at all of mine but the one I did look at gained 4. I haven't done any scouting yet. And the only moving objects were down south and didn't include that SS ganger in any way
Lord Foul


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 5:26 am
Joel Autobaun said:

Sam are you using the rules council or running this stuff past any longer termers?  I think you need a test environment and im sure youd get volunteers to test changes in game as well.


Unfortunately no, I'd guess he wanted to get this implemented asap after the Steam launch.

I'm a bit confused by this as well.

Sam said:


The numbers:

Assuming free offline training has a relative training speed of 1.0 unit per week, then:
- DW$500/week training gives a relative training speed of 2.0 units
- CHR5/week gives a relative training speed of 3.75 units
- CHR10/week gives a relative training speed of 4.5 units



We're missing some bonuses depending on your gang and location.

1 - Motivater

2 - Better Town training bonus for certain skills, briefly mentioned.

3 - Veteran gang character training bonus for younger characters.

4 - League skill bonuses from sponsors

(mentioned bonuses)

5 - Town training center - $500

6 - Chrome bonus - 5 or 10


So I could potentially have 6 bonuses if I'm willing to spend Chrome. What I want to know is, if a character is capped at 5 in training per week for weapon skills with 5 of the bonuses in effect, what will spending Chrome (6th bonus) do to aid this character get more/better training?

Since we can't break the cap of 5 or 8, how will spending chrome(real money) make it better?

Then take the modified training form.

If a character has "bad" training form and with 5 of the bonuses applied still only gets 1 point that week, how will spending chrome change the characters training that week? Since Chrome is not "modifying" training form, a player could be spending real money and see no change in the characters training if they have bad training form.

Chrome spent needs to show an actual change in training each week or a breaking of the allowed cap or override training form.
darthspanky


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 6:05 am
still waiting for a good reason to use chrome, not much good to a gang with over 25+ gangers that are over 50 and cant train for crap because there mostly all capped to use money for training on a system thats not been testedor defined, let us spend chrome on things that will be worth spending real money on like using it to preserve a gangers life because of old age, or let us expand a camp to build stuff we cant because of sixze restrictions, still waits for a good reason to spend rl money on chrome.
Bolt Thrower


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 6:10 am
Hey Lord Foul, if I read this right, then what I am seeing is:

Max gain per week is:
Not specialty Town Specialty
No Train Center 2 3
500 $DW TC 4 6
Chr 5/week 7.5 11.25
Chr 10/week 9 13.5

Motivator affects training form.
Don't know about mentor or League bonuses.
Ragnak


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 6:53 am
Bolt Thrower said:
Hey Lord Foul, if I read this right, then what I am seeing is:

Max gain per week is:
                              Not specialty    Town Specialty
No Train Center                2                    3
500 $DW TC                    4                    6
Chr 5/week                      7.5                  11.25
Chr 10/week                    9                    13.5

Motivator affects training form.
Don't know about mentor or League bonuses.


Which again brings the point back to why pay Chrome if the caps are still in place which limit skill increase to 5 and 8 (not spec/town spec)..... which can be even futher reduced as you hone in on the players cap for the skill.
*Rev. V*


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 7:24 am
" I find the idea of getting 8 points in a week for training way to much."

:o

I'm in agreement with this!

If I understand things correctly, you can pay, but do nothing with that ganger other than sit their ass in town all week and still get that kind of skill gain?!?!?


Bolt Thrower


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 7:38 am
Ragnak said:
Bolt Thrower said:
Hey Lord Foul, if I read this right, then what I am seeing is:

Max gain per week is:
                              Not specialty    Town Specialty
No Train Center                2                    3
500 $DW TC                    4                    6
Chr 5/week                      7.5                  11.25
Chr 10/week                    9                    13.5

Motivator affects training form.
Don't know about mentor or League bonuses.


Which again brings the point back to why pay Chrome if the caps are still in place which limit skill increase to 5 and 8 (not spec/town spec)..... which can be even futher reduced as you hone in on the players cap for the skill.


umm... I didn't see where Sam said max skill increase per week was 5 and 8.  What I saw him say was character skill caps would not change, meaning you will cap faster.  Paying 10/chrome per week in a town with a training center and training the town specialty, I am assuming with the max training for factor you would see a 13 point increase.
*Boonwolf*


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 7:43 am
Real question is

Do you want to be spending 400-500 CHR for 2x skilling over DW$ as a sub it's tempting to boost skill gains but we can scout down south and see massive gains to skills that non subs can't get.

On a hot week I have been able to pick up 10-20 on all gunnery and have raked in 50 mech skill at the same time.
goat starer


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 7:52 am
Bolt Thrower said:
*K1500* said:
*StCrispin* said:
How does Motivator factor in?

Example: previously with Training Center and Mot4 I would gain between 4 and 6 "free" skill points.

Does this mean with 10 CHR I will gain 14 to 21?


How the hell do you guys get such training - even with a MOT5 most of my guys will get (on average) 1 or 2 points a week in a town (SS) with a training centre. Places like BL & GW (which have no training centre) I average between 0 and 1.

Personally anything more than 4 points from (non-active) training seems like to much to me (excluding things like training vouchers from SCL).

K


Things may have changed:
http://www.darkwindwiki.com/index.php?title=Skills

down under training is a table.  With motivator 5, you should be doing better.  I have a few characters with really bad training form, but have been getting 2-5 points for most guys, even with the changes Sam made.


We should be believing a wiki entry written by someone who thinks writing "The Math" lends credibility? It just shows they struggle with English as well as maths.

I have 4 characters training in driving in Somerset, all of them in the training camp. Last week I was helping new guys scout a lot and the drivers did nothing but train. 2 points each.. Just as it has been since time immemorial. People just don't know how to read the table and get all over excited.
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 7:58 am
We really need basic training (like the military do). A few weeks should get you combat ready (say 50 skill). Beyond that it's a law of diminishing returns.

I am not convinced that work-based training is more effective than classroom-based training. In my experience you just end up doing the things you already know how to do.
*K1500*


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:05 am
Another thing to think about is should there be a downside for CRM training? Otherwise it's all reward with no risk. A potential suggestion is that CRM training could add to the hidden mileage statistic for the ganger - in that pushing themselves so hard to achieve their exceptional weekly training they are actually stretching their bodies (and minds) to the limits. This way you get the (potential) advantage of the additional training but also have the potential of reducing the overall lifespan of your ganger.

K
*sam*


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:14 am
Lord Foul said:

Unfortunately no, I'd guess he wanted to get this implemented asap after the Steam launch.


I have discussed it with a number of people, yes - including game developers who know a lot about this monetization model. But not the rules council (who, to be fair, have not been voted on for several years).


Lord Foul said:

We're missing some bonuses depending on your gang and location.

1 - Motivater

2 - Better Town training bonus for certain skills, briefly mentioned.

3 - Veteran gang character training bonus for younger characters.

4 - League skill bonuses from sponsors

(mentioned bonuses)

5 - Town training center - $500

6 - Chrome bonus - 5 or 10


So I could potentially have 6 bonuses if I'm willing to spend Chrome. What I want to know is, if a character is capped at 5 in training per week for weapon skills with 5 of the bonuses in effect, what will spending Chrome (6th bonus) do to aid this character get more/better training?

Since we can't break the cap of 5 or 8, how will spending chrome(real money) make it better?



I missed out a few of the factors, yes. There is no per-week cap though, and never was - I'm not sure where you got that idea from?  It's very simple really, all bonuses are multipliers on each other.


Lord Foul said:
If a character has "bad" training form and with 5 of the bonuses applied still only gets 1 point that week, how will spending chrome change the characters training that week? Since Chrome is not "modifying" training form, a player could be spending real money and see no change in the characters training if they have bad training form.


It's the same, poor training form is simply a multiplier of 0.8 or whatever. So yes, you'll get a lesser effect from the Chrome.

Skills are stored as fractional points, by the way, even though you're shown them rounded off. So there's no such thing as a wasted training factor, for example if you're seeing 1 point per week and multiplying it by 1.3

*sam*


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:18 am
*Boonwolf* said:
Real question is

Do you want to be spending 400-500 CHR for 2x skilling over DW$  as a sub it's tempting to boost skill gains but we can scout down south and see massive gains to skills that non subs can't get.

On a hot week I have been able to pick up 10-20 on all gunnery and have raked in 50 mech skill at the same time.


+1

It's entirely optional. It seems to me that a sensible way to spend Chrome on training would be to carefully watch your gangers to see who's in good training form, make sure they're in the right town, with all the bonuses lined up that you can manage, and then spend Chrome on just them.. not your whole gang.

But at the same time, if people want to spend more, then they can. This is the whole point of the free-to-play model: let people spend as little (even zero) or as much as they want. "One price fits all" is an anachronism in the modern digital economy - it makes sense when per-unit shelf-space and manufacturing costs exist, but makes little sense when the marginal cost is essentially zero.
*sam*


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:28 am
goat starer said:
always remember that the wiki is written by the same people you dont believe when they write stuff here... its a wiki...


I have just checked that wiki page, and yes there are errors on it, although most of it is pretty good. In particular, it suggests that there is some kind of hard-cap on weekly training points.

The Math section actually looks pretty close to how it *used* to be - I must have leaked it at some point (when under pressure from LF, perhaps? ;-)) - but it's no longer correct since training form has been dampened down and always stays closer to 1.0 now.
*sam*


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:43 am
*The X Man* said:
Another training question Sam. Will accelerated rehab training be included? If so, will the amounts be the same or cost more since it is technically a medical facility? Just IMO, it should be included because it IS something we select and choose to train in and pay for.


At the moment, Rehab remains unaffected. It's still $300/week and can't be changed in terms of effectiveness.
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:57 am
So, if they are all multipliers, since I get no training as a non-premium, 0 x however much I choose to spend on Chrome is still zero.

Or are non-premium gangs to start getting a minimal training modifier without cost?

Or is the chrome modifier a replacement of the premium $DW 500 multiplier?

I still see the biggest single turn-off for a new player is no significant advancement early on.

I know when I started I realised I didn't want to risk my skill 20 gangers outside. It took weeks of intensive playing town events and group scouts to get anyone up to nickname level. I lost a significant proportion of the candidates (both as a percentage of the number of candidates and as a percentage of the candidates themselves -arms, eyes and legs missing) before I got anyone up there.

Once you have a skill 200 ganger it isn't so hard to keep them, but keeping a skill <40 ganger alive long enough to make them useful takes too much grinding. Allowing a boost to early training (or hiring better gangers to start with) would alleviate this issue.

I am an addict, but normal people need to see their gang improving in the short term if they are to stick with something (That is why play-to-win is so popular). Improve the learning curve in the early stages and the rest should take care of itself.
*sam*


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 9:07 am
Iron Wraith said:
So, if they are all multipliers, since I get no training as a non-premium, 0 x however much I choose to spend on Chrome is still zero.

Or are non-premium gangs to start getting a minimal training modifier without cost?


Non-premium players cannot use free or DW$500/week options, however they get full use of the CHR5 and CHR10 options.. this is explained on the Training Centre webpage.

Iron Wraith said:
Improve the learning curve in the early stages and the rest should take care of itself.


Easier said than done!  ;-)
*Boonwolf*


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 9:10 am
From training center you can pick
1 don't use
2 spend 500DW$ (premium members)
3 spend 5 CHR
4 spend 10 CHR

I don't see this as a way to stack modifiers
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 9:24 am
I think that was where I was confused.

So CHR 5 is better than subscriber free or $500 per week and will be enhanced by training driver in Somerset (for example) but will be affected by whatever random training form is in place (and activity level).

OK I'll monitor my student and see what happens.
Lord Foul


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 7:58 pm
Thank you for the better explanation, which indicates you need to manage carefully to "try/hope"" to get the best benefit from using Chrome.

But if as you say the character should be in or near top form before using Chrome, then most likely that character will get full training each week and cap out at the 5 or 8 points no matter if you used Chrome or not. It's still a guessing game for a far more valuable currency, you could use Chrome and there may be no benefit gained.

Different approach/suggestion.

Chrome - Used for a personal trainer in addition to the training center and other bonuses applied each week/Dark wind month.

(In real life I was able to do both for Martial arts training)

Remember, each week is really 1 full month in Dark Wind time.

Benefit - Chrome, used for a character that has private training adds one additional skill point each week/Dark wind month in addition to all other skill training the character would normally be gained that week/month. Similar to an SCL voucher but is restricted to one additional point each week/DW month.

Example: Weekly training kicks off, character gets 4 skill point gain without using Chrome. Players adds Chrome perk(personal trainer), Character gets 5 skill points instead of the 4 they would have normally gained. This would also work for characters with bad training form. So if they would have normally only gained 1 point for the full week/month of training, that character with bad training form now would get 2 points that week/DW month instead of just 1 skill point. (This would get players to use Chrome far more than just on their best training characters, more Chrome used benefits you as the game owner)

This way there is a visible/guaranteed effect of using Chrome, which is far more valuable than in game currency used for the town training centers. Your method only adds the "possibility" of Chrome making a difference each week.

In my opinion, this approach would get more players to use the feature, which in turn benefits you financially. If the game developers you talk with don't play/know your game, their version of the monetization model may not fit that well.


Additionally, I agree with the others. Time spent on the road should still count against town training each week/DW month. If a character spends 5 out of 7 days on the road traveling from SS to Sarsfield (Basically 3 weeks of driving), that character should not get full training that week.
*sam*


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 8:08 pm
That's an interesting idea, yeah. The reason I removed 'time on the road' was to make it less unpredictable. But the way you're suggesting it would remove the unpredictability too.
Ragnak


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 9:23 pm
1 week isnt one month when it comes to darkwind when calculating travel time. I welcome the idea to remove it from the training equation or would welcome even more that all travel time be compressed to 1/4 the current values to reflect proper time compression.
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 6, 2014, 9:37 pm
LF:
The problem with your implementation is that non-premium players would find the CHR training less useful as they would only get the CHR training (1 point). 1 Point per week is too slow to be worth the investment. A single point might be worth 1 CHR which results in less euros for Sam.

If the intention is to make non-premium a valid play style then some of us will still buy CHR, (or via trading let someone else buy it for us).

It might be better to simply say the 5 CHR price is just an alternative to paying $500DW and gets the same level of training. Premium players would have the choice of either (and most would got the $DW route) or not paying at all and getting the free training. Non-premium players can only go the 5 CHR route.

You can then make an option to pay 5 CHR to get a personal trainer and maybe this would be cumulative with your "base" level of training (whatever level you chose). This makes the selection a little more complex, but it could still be handled with a drop down.

In summary the options are
Non-premium player
Pay nothing - get what you pay for.
5 CHR - Use training facility
10 CHR - Use training facility and personal trainer

Premium player
Pay Nothing - Get free training
$DW500 - Use Training Facility
5 CHR - Use Training Facility
5 CHR + $DW500 - Use training facility and personal trainer
10 CHR - Use training facility and personal trainer

It's a bit clumsy though.
Lord Foul


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 1:31 am
Ragnak said:
1 week isnt one month when it comes to darkwind when calculating travel time. I welcome the idea to remove it from the training equation or would welcome even more that all travel time be compressed to 1/4 the current values to reflect proper time compression.


Agree,

So if a trip takes roughly 5 real days (rough estimate based on re-supplying, refueling, sleeping etc at rest stops) to go from SS to Sarsfield, training for that week would be around 80%, instead of 100%.

Basically re-instate whatever formula Sam was using before instead of giving a free pass. But that is only as suggestion, if he wants to keep the  free pass, so be it.
Lord Foul


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 2:05 am
Iron Wraith said:
LF:
The problem with your implementation is that non-premium players would find the CHR training less useful as they would only get the CHR training (1 point).  1 Point per week is too slow to be worth the investment.  A single point might be worth 1 CHR which results in less euros for Sam.


I believe you may be interpreting the Chrome bonus as giving more than one point per week.

The Chrome perk is a "bonus" in training speed or a slightly better version of normal training that is not guaranteed to increase skill. An unsubbed character with bad training form may only get a .50 skill point that week using the Chrome perk when they would normally have received nothing or 0 for being non-premium as you say. The unsubbed player won't know if their characters have good or bad training form if they get no training each week.

So say your non-premiem player with a gang that does not go up in skill each week(not including field training) and you decide to use the Chrome perk.

If you were a non-subbed player spending Chrome each week on a character(s) and were not sure if it was working, how would you know you're getting your monies worth? What if your guy(s) did not go up in skill that week even after Chrome perk use, would you be happy with that outcome? I doubt it.

Same scenario but with guaranteed results of 1 point for use of the same Chrome. The player sees it worked, since their character was not going up before the use of the Chrome perk.

So the question is, as a non subbed player, would you rather have

A-Chrome bonus with unpredictable results with no guarantees each week and you may not see constant results since it is only a bonus.

Or

B-Chrome bonus with guaranteed results of 1 point each week no matter what your characters training form is.

Ideally this is how it would go for non-premium and premium players.

Player pays $500 to activate town center training.

Player also decides to use Chrome perk, which is activated on the individual character like an SCL voucher.

Weekly training kicks off, character gets trained by training center and gets 3 points in skill. Then with the Chrome perk added(personal trainer) the character gets and additional guaranteed 1 skill point.

There's no unpredictability.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 2:41 am
I believe the concept was stated earlier (by Sam) as:

--base training was 1 point
--using the Training Facility was a doubling (+100%) increase.
--5 chrome was a 250% increase
--10 chrome was a 350% increase

Factors such as Motivator and town specialty were left undefined and Form was a multiplier of 0.8 to 1.2

So technically 5 CHR adds 2.5 points to the base training IF that ganger were to only be set to gain 1 point to begin with.  Town specialty, training form and other factors should modify that base point.  With 1.2 high form and a town specialty you could see a base upwards of 2 making that 5 CHR into a bonus of 5 points or so (making the resulting skill gain somewhere around 7)

I would assume Motivator is added to the end, and not part of the base value.  If Mot 1 were 1 point and each added level diminished the return by half (though I think it was stated the diminishing value was 0.6 right?) that would make my Mot4 an added 1.87 or maybe a little over 2 tacked onto that 7 making it about a 9
Lord Foul


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 2:58 am
*StCrispin* said:
I believe the concept was stated earlier (by Sam) as:

--base training was 1 point
--using the Training Facility was a doubling (+100%) increase.
--5 chrome was a 250% increase
--10 chrome was a 350% increase

Factors such as Motivator and town specialty were left undefined and Form was a multiplier of 0.8 to 1.2

So technically 5 CHR adds 2.5 points to the base training IF that ganger were to only be set to gain 1 point to begin with.  Town specialty, training form and other factors should modify that base point.  With 1.2 high form and a town specialty you could see a base upwards of 2 making that 5 CHR into a bonus of 5 points or so (making the resulting skill gain somewhere around 7)

I would assume Motivator is added to the end, and not part of the base value.  If Mot 1 were 1 point and each added level diminished the return by half (though I think it was stated the diminishing value was 0.6 right?) that would make my Mot4 an added 1.87 or maybe a little over 2 tacked onto that 7 making it about a 9


If you're referring to the formula from this thread, it is based on training speed, not points.

Assuming free offline training has a relative training speed of 1.0 unit per week, then:
- DW$500/week training gives a relative training speed of 2.0 units
- CHR5/week gives a relative training speed of 3.75 units
- CHR10/week gives a relative training speed of 4.5 units

*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 3:04 am
Yes.

Just meaning to point out that 5 chrome doesn't mean "1 more skill point" because I think that's how it looks in some of the posting.  I wouldn't pay 5 chrome for one more point when I'm already getting 4 to 8 in SS just using the training center for (now) $500.

I could make 4 a week for 38 real life years for a million DW$ which is easier to part with than 5 chrome.  My outlook on it anyway.

personally I think $500 is too cheap so is food and lodging
Alec Burke


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 3:40 am
You are also paying $500 for gangers to get <.5 per week. There is no guarantee that paying $500 and having a high level motivator will mean that your ganger will get any noticeable training. I had 11 gangers without any noticeable training this past week, some for multiple weeks in a row, and that is with a level 10 motivator in SS. Yes, many of them are nearing their known cap, which is part of why their training is slow.

What LF has proposed is that the CHR training be a guaranteed 1 point rather than being some multiplier on an unknown value and could still end up being reported as 0. A guaranteed point of training is not insignificant in terms of passive/off-line training in DW.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 3:56 am
Why not have it be a post-training multiplier? you see he gained X skill from weekly, and then you say "I will pay 5 for an added 250% of said value". Usable as long as the ganger has not gained any field training yet.

That would eliminate the "unknown" or "unseen" or "uninformed" portion. It would be more... What that word? Transparent?
darthspanky


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 5:45 am
hey sam give us a 4th option

20 chrome = add 1 point to a skill that is capped, you can make it so they can only purchase 1 point a week and only till next specialism, sometimes only a few points needed to get new spec.
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 9:26 am
Or why not get rid of all the complex under the bonnet stuff and make training a formally stated mechanism.

Pay x for training and you will gain x% of the characters cap per week (that can still be a power function to slow down training as the cap is approached).  Abandon training form as an unnecessary complication.  Use of a training centre multiplies that % by a stated amount.  Ditto motivator and all the other dohickies.

Then everyone could sit down with a calculator and make their choices accordingly.  With some work you may be able to work out your cap but I don't see this as a significant issue as well informed number cruncher can do that at the moment (by identifying where the training starts to drop off for example).

I don't see the obfuscation adding any play value and removing it means it is an informed player decision what they want to do.

Anything that costs real money (and CHR is real money)should have a well defined effect.
*K1500*


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 10:22 am
Iron Wraith said:
I don't see the obfuscation adding any play value and removing it means it is an informed player decision what they want to do.


Respectfully I disagree. The opaque nature of DW is one of the most appealing things about it (to me). Knowing what the mechanics are that underlie a game means the player base works out the optimum strategy - then very quickly everybody adopts that strategy. Players will naturally look for the optimum strategy, it's part of how most people approach games.

We already home some aspects of this in the game, but currently it's done by observation and experimentation - and done through this methodology it's fun. This is the play value that the opaqueness of the rules in DW add - fun. 

Iron Wraith said:
Anything that costs real money (and CHR is real money)should have a well defined effect.


Why?

K
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 11:16 am
If I don't know the mechanism by which it may not have an effect, then I am not going to bother as it may never work. If I am not spending CHR on training then I am not buying as much CHR from Sam.

I am not sure how many players that are currently in the lobby agree with you and will be happy to watch ganger after ganger and car after car go down the toilet for months until they work out from first principles how to keep gangers alive. It's a car combat game, not maths homework.

I suspect we will lose hundreds of players that frankly can do without that grind. Most people I introduced to the game who gave up cited hat it was too hard to progress. I don't want to go back to having only 7 people in the Lobby.

If you wish to remain in the dark and learn it from experience or at your grammers knee, you don't have to read the information.
PA Racers


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 5:52 pm
Why not just let Non-premium player's get the free training as well? That should give them some indication of their gangers training form.

edit: Besides there are a few skills not trainable in feild(first-aid, cycle,psi), think its only fair they can train those skills somehow too.
Necrotech


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 6:02 pm
I believe if a player wants the benefits, then they have switch to premium. Otherwise the lines really start getting blurred and the valuation of having a premium account seriously declines.

PA Racers said:
Why not just let Non-premium player's get the free training as well? That should give them some indication of their gangers training form.

edit: Besides there are a few skills not trainable in feild(first-aid, cycle,psi), think its only fair they can train those skills somehow too.
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 6:17 pm
Premium players can travel outside Southern Traingle, have no cap on vehicles and can have a number of gangers depending on their leadership rather than the flat 15 non-premium.

Pretty clear delineation to me ;)

Then again I wasn't arguing for free training for non-premium
PA Racers


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 6:18 pm
My understanding of free training is what we get now in any town without a training center. So what 0-2 points a week? Hardly a detemining factor to decide to stay a Non-premium player.
*K1500*


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 7:12 pm
Iron Wraith said:
If I don't know the mechanism by which it may not have an effect, then I am not going to bother as it may never work.  If I am not spending CHR on training then I am not buying as much CHR from Sam.


Okay, that's fair enough, you're not a risk taker. I would however, highlight, that many other people are happy with an element of risk within the game and the choices that they make. Currently you're playing for free, so odd's are you're going to be careful with the Chrome you're spending, which is understandable. I'd imagine most new players who are free-players and have some Chrome are probably focusing on using their chrome for vehicle and equipment purchases.

Iron Wraith said:

I am not sure how many players that are currently in the lobby agree with you and will be happy to watch ganger after ganger and car after car go down the toilet for months until they work out from first principles how to keep gangers alive.  It's a car combat game, not maths homework.


Well this is going to happen no matter if they are getting a set training amount or if there is variation in weekly training. It not being maths homework was exactly my point - set training makes it a straight equation of "I wait for X numbers of weeks and my ganger will get X specialism" - as opposed to exploring the various forms of game play to work out how they get the best benefit. As it is the skill gains from doing stuff (events/scouting) is already better than weekly training gains so I'm not quite getting your point here. 

Iron Wraith said:

I suspect we will lose hundreds of players that frankly can do without that grind.  Most people I introduced to the game who gave up cited hat it was too hard to progress.  I don't want to go back to having only 7 people in the Lobby.

If you wish to remain in the dark and learn it from experience or at your grammers knee, you don't have to read the information.


This is a somewhat hyperbolic claim in my opinion, as exposing the bones of the game won't remove the requirement to "grind" (also known as "playing") - what it will do is minimise the variation within the game (as we go for optimum strategies) and disincentive people exploring the different elements of the game for fear of the risk involved. If you aren't aware of the relative risk of an activity then the only way to make a judgement is to take the plunge and experience it - and, shock horror, you may find that the fun outweighs the risk involved. Dark-Winds should be about the fun of playing, not worrying about the risk ratio in relation to various game elements for the sake of advancement.

K
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 7:58 pm
There is a difference between calculated risk and gambling when you don't know the odds.

My point about training is that if you know you can train some-one to a level of competence in a known period of time, then if you are having a bad month, you know you can turn it around by biding your time. If you see that ganger you spent three weeks grinding to get to his first specialism wiped out in a random game related incident about which you have no control, and you know your only option is to start again, you may well "Rage-quit".

And by Grinding I mean having to spin out wilderness encounters to over 200 turns to get a single point of driver skill, take extra magazines into semi-pro death-races just to fire into the air to get +1 gunner skill.

If you have nothing to do all day, I am sure it is possible to advance quite quickly, if you are limited to a few hours a day, maybe a few times a week, you need some other mechanism than just doing the do endlessly.

My time is limited. I pay someone to clean my windows so I can spend the time saved to do other things, I am happy to pay Sam to get my gangers to a point that I can let them play outside in the garden where the real fun is.



*K1500*


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 9:10 pm
Iron Wraith said:
My time is limited.  I pay someone to clean my windows so I can spend the time saved to do other things, I am happy to pay Sam to get my gangers to a point that I can let them play outside in the garden where the real fun is.


I totally get that - I just don't get why you need explicit mechanical explanations to justify you getting the benefit of expenditure. As it is we've already had people highlighting that they can get between 5-8 point of training a week from the options which have previously been provided. Certainly the Chrome option will at least be matching that, which certainly beats any free training that people can currently get.

For the record I would be totally opposed to the removal of the training form idea - but that's just me. I think we're arguing with each other from diametrically opposed points of view about what is enjoyable, which means there is no convincing either of us to change our positions. I'll leave it here, though if you wanted to continue discussing this between us feel free to PM me!

K
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 9:32 pm
What I'd Rather see:

an abbreviated "Sims" type interface where you can set what activity your guys will do while you aren't playing.  such as if you have 24 hours in a day (1/7th of a DWmonth) you can set (similar to how camp open hours are set?) things for your guys to do like:

"Fix cars" - generated mech points for *free-ish* repairs like at camp
"Sleep" - without enough your exhaustion rating goes up (Activity level drops accordingly)
"Train" - offline skill training.  x hours = x points based on the characters intelligence stat, training form, activity level, exhaustion, and skill specific affinity (maybe he wants to be a dentist, not a toy maker)
"Hang out at Dexters" - increases likelihood of being offers a lucrative mission or contract hit or meeting some special NPC that could benefit you as a hired merc or entourage

and others that I haven't thought up.

Actual Play would modify those periods of time that it occurred in.  Bubba joe had to stop working on that Pho A armor refit for 45 minutes (1/32nd of a day... 1/224th of a week...  or in DW time 1/224th of a month...  or 3 hours, 13 minutes DWtime) to go scout so that block is then listed as "scout" and skills gained are from event and not from the "offline" gameplay
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 7, 2014, 9:49 pm
Iron Wraith said:
If you see that ganger you spent three weeks grinding to get to his first specialism wiped out in a random game related incident about which you have no control, and you know your only option is to start again, you may well "Rage-quit".


Random as in lightning comes out of the sky and strikes him dead for no reason at all?

or Random as in the Player makes a bad decision and bullets fly into the breach and gut him?

Also it takes a lot longer than 3 weeks to get a specialism.  Its more like a month and a half in most cases (more if you are an F2P member)

Iron Wraith said:
And by Grinding I mean having to spin out wilderness encounters to over 200 turns to get a single point of driver skill.


Or just don't, and get 2 points.  You can get driver skill much easier by ending the travel as fast as you can, then launching another as soon as possible, since distance traveled between towns counts for more than the actual in-event skill gains.  I get 2 to 3 for driving Sars to BL with 5 truces.
Bolt Thrower


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 9:55 pm
*K1500* said:
Iron Wraith said:
My time is limited.  I pay someone to clean my windows so I can spend the time saved to do other things, I am happy to pay Sam to get my gangers to a point that I can let them play outside in the garden where the real fun is.


I totally get that - I just don't get why you need explicit mechanical explanations to justify you getting the benefit of expenditure. As it is we've already had people highlighting that they can get between 5-8 point of training a week from the options which have previously been provided. Certainly the Chrome option will at least be matching that, which certainly beats any free training that people can currently get.

For the record I would be totally opposed to the removal of the training form idea - but that's just me. I think we're arguing with each other from diametrically opposed points of view about what is enjoyable, which means there is no convincing either of us to change our positions. I'll leave it here, though if you wanted to continue discussing this between us feel free to PM me!

K


K, used to be able to get 5-8 in a town using training center for skill the town specialized in.  I think Sam has made some changes which make that less likely to happen.  I also think he has flattened some modifiers, so my guess right now would be 6 is about max.
*K1500*


Posted Sep 7, 2014, 10:56 pm
Bolt Thrower said:
K, used to be able to get 5-8 in a town using training center for skill the town specialized in.  I think Sam has made some changes which make that less likely to happen.  I also think he has flattened some modifiers, so my guess right now would be 6 is about max.


Well either way it's pretty irrelevant, in realtion to the point which I was making, if it's still significantly more than what you get for free training. But that's good to know either way.

K
*Rev. V*


Posted Sep 8, 2014, 12:21 am
"Also it takes a lot longer than 3 weeks to get a specialism. Its more like a month and a half in most cases"

That depends on how much you're willing to put them through....There was a newly hired gal that I got up to 49 (She started at 20, I think I was training her for a Slay Ride or something, because I remember I couldn't let her go over 49) rather quickly by relentlessly scouting her. I ran her in my squadcar as a gunner on the GG and in morays as a gunner on a GG. As soon as she arrived in town, she got into whatever vehicle was repaired and she was out again.

I don't remember the exact time it took, but it wasn't anywhere near 3 weeks.
Necrotech


Posted Sep 8, 2014, 2:08 am
Personally, I liked the training form bit, added a bit of random realism to it.

Please keep that portion.

Most numbers should *NOT* hanging out in the open.

I like the personal "Hidden" factors myself, like a puzzle to unravel... but more importantly keeps the stat mongering down.
*Rev. V*


Posted Sep 8, 2014, 7:55 am

"Most numbers should *NOT* hanging out in the open.

I like the personal "Hidden" factors myself, like a puzzle to unravel... but more importantly keeps the stat mongering down."


THAT!




*sam*


Posted Sep 8, 2014, 11:51 am
*StCrispin* said:
What I'd Rather see:

an abbreviated "Sims" type interface where you can set what activity your guys will do while you aren't playing.  such as if you have 24 hours in a day (1/7th of a DWmonth) you can set (similar to how camp open hours are set?) things for your guys to do like:

"Fix cars" - generated mech points for *free-ish* repairs like at camp
"Sleep" - without enough your exhaustion rating goes up (Activity level drops accordingly)
"Train" - offline skill training.  x hours = x points based on the characters intelligence stat, training form, activity level, exhaustion, and skill specific affinity (maybe he wants to be a dentist, not a toy maker)
"Hang out at Dexters" - increases likelihood of being offers a lucrative mission or contract hit or meeting some special NPC that could benefit you as a hired merc or entourage

and others that I haven't thought up.

Actual Play would modify those periods of time that it occurred in.  Bubba joe had to stop working on that Pho A armor refit for 45 minutes (1/32nd of a day... 1/224th of a week...  or in DW time 1/224th of a month...  or 3 hours, 13 minutes DWtime) to go scout so that block is then listed as "scout" and skills gained are from event and not from the "offline" gameplay


Nice ideas here. I had some plans along these lines originally, but never fleshed them out much.
*sam*


Posted Sep 8, 2014, 1:24 pm
*Rev. V* said:

"Most numbers should *NOT* hanging out in the open.

I like the personal "Hidden" factors myself, like a puzzle to unravel... but more importantly keeps the stat mongering down."


THAT!







This is one of the core ideas in the game, of course. If you know all the stats then you can 'play by spreadsheet' and the perfect designs are worked out and everyone uses them. Having to experiment and observe and discuss is not only more fun, but it leads to opinions rather than facts, and creates a whole social level that would be missed otherwise.
Crazy AL


Posted Sep 8, 2014, 3:38 pm
*StCrispin* said:
What I'd Rather see:

an abbreviated "Sims" type interface where you can set what activity your guys will do while you aren't playing.  such as if you have 24 hours in a day (1/7th of a DWmonth) you can set (similar to how camp open hours are set?) things for your guys to do like:

"Fix cars" - generated mech points for *free-ish* repairs like at camp
"Sleep" - without enough your exhaustion rating goes up (Activity level drops accordingly)
"Train" - offline skill training.  x hours = x points based on the characters intelligence stat, training form, activity level, exhaustion, and skill specific affinity (maybe he wants to be a dentist, not a toy maker)
"Hang out at Dexters" - increases likelihood of being offers a lucrative mission or contract hit or meeting some special NPC that could benefit you as a hired merc or entourage

and others that I haven't thought up.

Actual Play would modify those periods of time that it occurred in.  Bubba joe had to stop working on that Pho A armor refit for 45 minutes (1/32nd of a day... 1/224th of a week...  or in DW time 1/224th of a month...  or 3 hours, 13 minutes DWtime) to go scout so that block is then listed as "scout" and skills gained are from event and not from the "offline" gameplay


Good stuff here
*Bastille*


Posted Sep 9, 2014, 1:34 am
I like that stuff too, a lot
Juris


Posted Sep 9, 2014, 4:25 pm
So...two questions

Since spending chrome is an alternative to paying $500/wk (I don't care about non-premium members), is it any better? If so how?

Since training form is now flat what is the use of the Motivator spec?
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 9, 2014, 5:03 pm
Since Sam has spoken, I'll fold my tent and wait to see what for tomorrow to see what happens.
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 9, 2014, 5:05 pm
Juris said:
So...two questions

Since spending chrome is an alternative to paying $500/wk (I don't care about non-premium members), is it any better?  If so how?


I was under the impression that you will always pay the $500 for each character at a training center, then you can choose to train them with chrome for an additional extra skill bump. I read Sam's initial post again and it may not be as clear in the wriiting/description.

Juris said:

Since training form is now flat what is the use of the Motivator spec?


The Motivator spec still has it's benefit. The training form has been adjusted just to eliminate the extreme highs and lows of training to make it a little more consistent week to week. Motivator can still help you get closer to the high end of each characters weekly training.
goat starer


Posted Sep 10, 2014, 12:43 pm
Crazy AL said:
*StCrispin* said:
What I'd Rather see:

an abbreviated "Sims" type interface where you can set what activity your guys will do while you aren't playing.  such as if you have 24 hours in a day (1/7th of a DWmonth) you can set (similar to how camp open hours are set?) things for your guys to do like:

"Fix cars" - generated mech points for *free-ish* repairs like at camp
"Sleep" - without enough your exhaustion rating goes up (Activity level drops accordingly)
"Train" - offline skill training.  x hours = x points based on the characters intelligence stat, training form, activity level, exhaustion, and skill specific affinity (maybe he wants to be a dentist, not a toy maker)
"Hang out at Dexters" - increases likelihood of being offers a lucrative mission or contract hit or meeting some special NPC that could benefit you as a hired merc or entourage

and others that I haven't thought up.

Actual Play would modify those periods of time that it occurred in.  Bubba joe had to stop working on that Pho A armor refit for 45 minutes (1/32nd of a day... 1/224th of a week...  or in DW time 1/224th of a month...  or 3 hours, 13 minutes DWtime) to go scout so that block is then listed as "scout" and skills gained are from event and not from the "offline" gameplay


Good stuff here


I like this stuff too. I would live it if there were both negative and positive effects. Spend time in Dexters... Get better contracts.. Improve rep but maybe get addicted to something etc.
*Bastille*


Posted Sep 10, 2014, 1:02 pm
yeah, I like that too
goat starer


Posted Sep 10, 2014, 1:15 pm
Having game effects be directly connected to your actual actions and decisions seems like a good idea.
*Bastille*


Posted Sep 10, 2014, 1:27 pm
small stuff like that adds a lot of enjoyment
Racing Robbie


Posted Sep 10, 2014, 2:54 pm
Anything that adds to the role play side of the game is a good thing so +1 from me as well
d0dger


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 12:44 pm
So after the first week of training only... looks like the current $500 / week training for subscribers is quite a bit less training than we used to get. Probably more due to the reduction in training form than the changes to that bonus itself.
*Boonwolf*


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 1:49 pm
Didn't notice any less training this week in SS still the same 1-3 points.
goat starer


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 2:08 pm
*Boonwolf* said:
Didn't notice any less training this week in SS still the same 1-3 points.


Same here
d0dger


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 2:28 pm
That's probably the difference of my higher motivator. Last week I got several 5's 6's and even a 7 and almost no 1's or 2's and this week no one over trained over 4. Everyone dropped 2-3 points.
*Bigspenner*


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 3:08 pm
That could be explained by training form as I got a mixed bag and havent been doing great for a while but did get a couple of 5s and a 0!
PA Racers


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 3:17 pm
d0dger said:
That's probably the difference of my higher motivator. Last week I got several 5's 6's and even a 7 and almost no 1's or 2's and this week no one over trained over 4. Everyone dropped 2-3 points.



My results were about the same as D0dger's.
*Longo*


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 3:28 pm
I had 5 premium -
three did 3 points, one did 4 points, one did 2 points. All in SS. I think my 5 string leader was there with motivator 3.
d0dger


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 3:43 pm
*Bigspenner* said:
That could be explained by training form as I got a mixed bag and havent been doing great for a while but did get a couple of 5s and a 0!


Training form variance alone doesn't explain a 3 point drop in training one week to the next, especially not more or less across the board over the entire gang, moreso with motivator 5 working against any decrease in training form...

I would suspect this is the main difference though:
*sam* said:
training form has been dampened down and always stays closer to 1.0 now.
d0dger


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 3:44 pm
*Longo* said:
I had 5 premium  -
three did 3 points, one did 4 points, one did 2 points. All in SS. I think my 5 string leader was there with motivator 3.


The rest of your gang train on Chrome? Any observations as to how that compared?
*Longo*


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 3:53 pm
d0dger said:
*Longo* said:
I had 5 premium  -
three did 3 points, one did 4 points, one did 2 points. All in SS. I think my 5 string leader was there with motivator 3.


The rest of your gang train on Chrome? Any observations as to how that compared?


Maybe I worded this wrong, hehe.

I paid 10 chrome two train 5 of my gangers, getting the aforementioned stats.

The rest did 500 DW $$. They got 0, 1, and 2s mostly
Ragnak


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 3:58 pm
Drops in training can also be due to the skill closing in on the characters cap.
musashi_san


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 4:04 pm
does the personal trainer work at places with no training center? like camps, truck stops, or shanty?
d0dger


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 4:14 pm
Ragnak said:
Drops in training can also be due to the skill closing in on the characters cap.


That's true... but for example one ganger got 4 points in handgun last week from 116 to 120, and today 120 to 121, with a known cap of 175.

Folks training driving/cycling at low skill levels in the past have gotten 5-6-7 per week in SS with the town boost but today none over 4...
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 4:25 pm
I paid 5 chrome on 4 gangers and they got on average 5 points each. (Driving in SS).

I also paid 10 chrome for another ganger, but he only got 2 points of driving in SS.

A bit of a mixed bag, but I will definitely be paying 5 CHR again, but I won't bother with the 10 CHR unless I see the mechanism and satisfy myself that it was a training form fluke as it seems a poor investment on the face of it.

I appreciate that this isn't statistically significant, but I can't afford to spend the CHR to identify the training curve. I'll just reinforce success.
Joel Autobaun


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 4:36 pm
Of all changes, with the exception of nerfing pvp to oblivion, this is the worst.

I am certainly a minority, I know. I have become an extremely casual player after 6 years of playing this game. This change killed casual play. I do hope that the chrome game works out for you sam and you find some financial success finally with these extreme changes to the game mechanics...dynamics and monetization. It is certainly not for me. I have a few goals to do before my membership wraps up and my old gangers are dead in hospital, so I will still be around but I have certainly lost my passion for the game. This is a good thing for many as it no more arguments on forums...in lobby or even in pvp events. No longer care.

If this sounds like sour grapes, well too bad. We've seen players scream for pvp nerfing changes then leave anyways after they got what they wanted. I needed to post this so at least sam and whomever is advising him knows at least the voice of discontent... even if may be a minority.
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 6:11 pm
Iron Wraith said:
I paid 5 chrome on 4 gangers and they got on average 5 points each. (Driving in SS).

I also paid 10 chrome for another ganger, but he only got 2 points of driving in SS.

A bit of a mixed bag, but I will definitely be paying 5 CHR again, but I won't bother with the 10 CHR unless I see the mechanism and satisfy myself that it was a training form fluke as it seems a poor investment on the face of it.

I appreciate that this isn't statistically significant, but I can't afford to spend the CHR to identify the training curve.  I'll just reinforce success.


I know the training numbers will always be a hidden factor. I also know players want to see what they are investing in with chrome training. But what if there was a way to keep mystery in skill bumps and give player info on their chrome training?

Currently, every character after the weekly update, their training looks something like this,  Gunnery  52  (49).

Instead. what if it looked like this,  Gunnery  53  (52)  (49)

The characters current skill level at the time of the weekly update is 49. The next skill number, 52, is what they received from their standard training.

The green number, 53, would indicate chrome training received for this week.

These are all still just numbers that don't show you any training form info, but it will now show you that chrome training worked and was issued to the character.

The biggest issue is that no one can current tell what impact chrome had in regard s to training. This would be a much better way for players to see it worked. And if the skill bump was deemed high enough, those players may tend to repeat chrome training the following week.

Since there are 2 chrome training options, maybe letting a green font color indicate the 5 chrome purchase and a different color, example orange, would indicate the 10 chrome training.

Would this format be acceptable to players that this info shows on your character page?? And that it would be an easier way to select and track your type of character training?
Necrotech


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 6:18 pm
With solid Motivators place...

The "new" form of training is ineffectual.

Allow Chrome to be a multiplier of whatever strength..

Bottom Line

PLEASE PUT BACK THE OLD TRAINING, IT WORKED - THE CURRENT INCARNATION IS GANG CRIPPLING!
Bolt Thrower


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 6:25 pm
It does appear that the new changes skew things a lot lower. I have fewer guys getting good skill gains and more with 0 to 1 skill gains. Also, did motivator get nerfed?
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 6:39 pm
Necrotech said:

PLEASE PUT BACK THE OLD TRAINING, IT WORKED - THE CURRENT INCARNATION IS GANG CRIPPLING!


I have a completely honest and open question, because I want to understand better, how is training now crippling your gang??

Maybe I look at this differently than others or train my gang differently than others so I don't see what you are talking about. Perhaps a little better explanation will give all of us and Sam a better understanding.
Necrotech


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 7:03 pm
How is it not?

Especially when training skils, that have no other way of training. First Aid, etc...

When you have motivators, when I have been seeing fairly consistant (5-6) results until all of a sudden drop to 1 maybe 2 points across the board? No.

While I agree the monetization from this game is neccessary,

Hamstringing a basic function of the game, even if subscribed / premium, for the sake of gaining more currency, is not something I agree with.

I like to see a balance of things, or least the oppurtunity for balance, This.... This is not it.

This is definitely onto the slippery slope, I fear.

If this starts turning into a MWO or similiar situation in regards to this game, I am not sure I could stomach that, Even after the substantial mental and other investments I have placed with this game.

Prolly shelve it at that point.

*The X Man* said:
Necrotech said:

PLEASE PUT BACK THE OLD TRAINING, IT WORKED - THE CURRENT INCARNATION IS GANG CRIPPLING!


I have a completely honest and open question, because I want to understand better, how is training now crippling your gang??

Maybe I look at this differently than others or train my gang differently than others so I don't see what you are talking about. Perhaps a little better explanation will give all of us and Sam a better understanding.
Ragnak


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 7:18 pm
It definitely is worth seeing what Sam has on this.

I would assume that the percentage of travel time each character had was still calculated against training time as opposed to what he initially indicated was going away. If not, the results are even skewed to the worse.
Juris


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 7:42 pm
I've also noticed a drop in regular training - almost no one is getting 4-5 points from training (or up to 8 for drivers/cyclists in SS etc). I did experiment with the 10/ch wk training on one gal and she gained 5 psi in SS, so that seems to be working.

So it does seem the change nerfed regular training - which is pretty odd since regular training is now 500/wk...

I'll wait to see if this improves over towns with Motivator guys - I assume everyone's training form got reset and they'll be a period of adjustment

Oh, and Sam said they'll be training in every town but so far this doesn't seem to be implemented
Alec Burke


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 7:45 pm
Ragnak said:
I would assume that the percentage of travel time each character had was still calculated against training time as opposed to what he initially indicated was going away. If not, the results are even skewed to the worse.


Travel time hasn't been figured into training since late July. I asked Sam about this when I saw that the hours listed for all my gangers didn't change for a couple of weeks and noticed that the couriers who normally spend 120+ hours a week on the road were starting to get 2,3 or 4 points of training when they'd normally at most get 1.

As LF pointed out earlier, the way the two CHR options are currently set-up to work, they really are best used on those who you know are at the higher end of their training form.  I spend 5CHR on a guy who'd been getting mostly 2 per week for a while and this week he went up 3. On the other hand, I spent 10CHR on a gal who'd been getting 3 or 4 per week and she got 7. Both were training handguns, so getting 7 points is something that simply wasn't possible previously.

On the other hand, the majority of my gang continues to just use the premium training center bonus and generally seems to be getter lesser training than they used to. I attribute that to the mentioned change in how training form now stays closer to 1.0, but with a level 11 motivator I'd like to think I should have a good number of my gang at above average training form.
*K1500*


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 7:54 pm
I'll just add in some additional feedback in here. I usually only see between 0-3 point skill gains (only got between MOT2 - MOT5 though my towns) myself on the regular training ($500DW). I did experiment with a couple of gangers on the CHR10 training option. I did get one good gain - 5pts in PSI (though I was using SCL training vouchers on him as well). The other 2 gangers got 2 and 3 points (in SS and TX).

I do recognise that I could just have a whole crap load of gangers with really poor training form. I'm not judging, just providing additional data to what people have observed.

K
goat starer


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 9:31 pm
*The X Man* said:
Necrotech said:

PLEASE PUT BACK THE OLD TRAINING, IT WORKED - THE CURRENT INCARNATION IS GANG CRIPPLING!


I have a completely honest and open question, because I want to understand better, how is training now crippling your gang??

Maybe I look at this differently than others or train my gang differently than others so I don't see what you are talking about. Perhaps a little better explanation will give all of us and Sam a better understanding.


im really missing the point here too...  im seeing very little difference
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 9:40 pm
Necrotech said:
How is it not?

Especially when training skils, that have no other way of training. First Aid, etc...

When you have motivators, when I have been seeing fairly consistant (5-6) results until all of a sudden drop to 1 maybe 2 points across the board? No.



Ok, so what I understand now is that getting 1-2 points of training less a week is crippling? I can understand your frustration, but IMO, it is not crippling. Your characters still drive and shoot, they still scout and travel, they still complete in leagues just the same as they did before.

This reply isn't to start a forum war. I am just stating a different view on how I see things.

I do not rely heavily on motivators and mentors. I rely on my ability during events where training is at its best. So far, I get consistent results week in and week out with the standard training. Yes, there has been a slight drop in skill amounts. My 5 point increases fell to 4. That didn't bother me, but it may to others.

I do see where FA and PSI would feel the pinch more due to the skill having no field training, especially in towns without the training centers. I did take note that one of my guys training in PSI and in a town with no training center and using the standard training (no chrome) and he still got 7 points this week. That was not a typo, s e v e n points. I was shocked, but I now know it is possible to still get good training boosts regardless of the toned down training form.

I will probably be in the minority, but I don't manage training to get maximum results every single week. My guys train in a skill and whatever they get at weeks end is what they get. So no stress or worry, instead I go out and do the things that are fun, social scouts and leagues. Then I let the training happen on its own. The game is a lot more enjoyable that way.
Necrotech


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 10:15 pm
Without getting into loads and loads of rhetoric...

Simply put, Leave the training form alone.

While the rates have increased, the value of received training has bottomed out.

Let previous form stand, allow Chrome to be some sort of multiplier.

Simple, efficient. Not have us pay in Chrome for what we already had in the first place.

-------
End Note -

While you may gotten 7 points, X, that is an anomaly, certainly not the norm.

d0dger


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 10:23 pm
Bolt Thrower said:
It does appear that the new changes skew things a lot lower.  I have fewer guys getting good skill gains and more with 0 to 1 skill gains.  Also, did motivator get nerfed? 


Motivator didn't get changed directly... but the affects of training form were reduced, and all motivator does is help better your training form. So yes, but indirectly.
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 10:25 pm
Necrotech said:

While the rates have increased, the value of received training has bottomed out.



Simple, efficient. Not have us pay in Chrome for what we already had in the first place.

-------
End Note -

While you may gotten 7 points, X, that is an anomaly, certainly not the norm.



I can agree with you on those two points, especially the second.

Yes, my 7 points was most likely a rare occurrence. I only pointed that out to show good training can still happen even with all the changes that have been done. 
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 12, 2014, 10:32 pm
Bolt Thrower said:
It does appear that the new changes skew things a lot lower.  I have fewer guys getting good skill gains and more with 0 to 1 skill gains.  Also, did motivator get nerfed? 


My SS guys ($500 training center + Motivator 4) gained between 1 and 3.  The vast majority gaining 2.  Previously I gained DOUBLE this (3 to 6 with most gaining 4).  My 2 test Chrome guys 5CHR gained 5.

Reports from others indicate their 5CHR guys gained at least double what their 10CHR guys.  Is there a bug here?  The gains for 10CHR we no more than gains for $500 which seems to mean it had no effect at all.

Another oddity:  while my SS crew got 2 points for $500, my Morgan crew who have no TC and got their skill up for FREE gained the following: 3, 4, 5, and 5
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 11:11 pm
*StCrispin* said:

Another oddity:  my Morgan crew who have no TC and got their skill up for FREE gained the following: 3, 4, 5, and 5


Thats because they all attended my Morgan Night Training Class on the weekends  :rolleyes:

My Morgan crew got 2, 4, 5 ,5 & 5. Seems to be the place to be  :D
Alec Burke


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 11:30 pm
*StCrispin* said:
Reports from others indicate their 5CHR guys gained at least double what their 10CHR guys.  Is there a bug here?  The gains for 10CHR we no more than gains for $500 which seems to mean it had no effect at all.


More likely people not understanding how the training works, as comparing the gains different gangers receive is mostly meaningless unless you actually know  a lot more about the individual gangers. Spending 10CHR on a character who is not at high training form is simply a mistake. So is spending 5CHR, but it's not as big a mistake and may not be noticed since the expectation won't be as high.

So if people spent 5CHR on gangers who were at top form, and 10CHR on gangers who were not, it should be expected that those who received the 5CHR training would actually receive more training. Unfortunately I don't think most people will expect this. It's why I think having CHR work as a multiplier of training form rather than a set number may not be a good approach.

And as I posted earlier, I received 7 points of handgun training in SS using 10CHR - a feat which was previously not possible even at the top of training form. That would seem to indicate there isn't a bug with the 10CHR training.

Personally, I'd like to see the premium training return to how it was (including considering travel time) - although I don't think the change is as great as some people in this thread seem to think it is. The premium training has always had a great deal of variance in it, with most skills earning between 0-5 and the town specialty skills being able to get up to 7 or 8 when at top form.  I would say that the average was probably around 2 per week though.

For CHR, I'd suggest having it be a set amount of training received, so more similar to using an SCL training voucher. Although it would be instead of the premium training rather than on top of it, since you have to make a choice between CHR training and premium training. I'd suggest 5CHR=2 training points (or similar to the average premium training) and 10CHR=3 or 4.

This would mean that for premium members (subscribers) there's a benefit from being premium and using the  $500 training cneter, as it would be better than CHR when at good training form. But at low training form (or when nearing a cap) paying CHR for training could result in more training. And since at high training form, the $500 premium training is still better than either CHR option, there still is an incentive from a training perspective to become a premium member.

For the non-premium member, a set training amount from CHR provides a very obvious benefit, in that it allows for an easier evaluation in making the decision to spend CHR or not. And since 2 training points is likely on par with the training a premium member receives using a training center, it's not like either premium or non-premium members gain a huge benefit over the other. Or that training becomes a completely monetized aspect of the game.
musashi_san


Posted Sep 12, 2014, 11:48 pm
been out of town and not playing much till today, so i haven't paid too much attention, but training looked ok to good, including 7 pts for a psi...
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 13, 2014, 12:21 am
Alec Burke said:
*StCrispin* said:
Reports from others indicate their 5CHR guys gained at least double what their 10CHR guys.  Is there a bug here?  The gains for 10CHR we no more than gains for $500 which seems to mean it had no effect at all.


More likely people not understanding how the training works.


The people reporting this were Veterans with more time in game than myself.  So I'm pretty sure they understand how training works.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 13, 2014, 12:40 am
To continue with my own testing, I will this week set the 5 point gain 5CHR ganger to 10CHR. If he gains less next week than he did this week then it would lend credence to it being a bug.

As previously mentioned 10CHR is a multiplier of the training value. I forget the specific values mentioned earlier by Sam, but 10CHR was 50% more effective than 5CHR and 5CHR was something like 2.5 times the value of paid training.

So if I received an average of 2 on my regular guys (most common skill gain for the 20 or so in SS) then 5CHR should result in 2 x 2.5 = 5 (which is exactly what my two 5CHR guys gained). And unless the training for degrades this week for them, they should get 2 x 3.5 for 10CHR next week = 7

We will see if this is the case. If they instead drop to 1 or 2 (or Zero as one person experienced) then they is most likely an error in its application somewhere.
Alec Burke


Posted Sep 13, 2014, 12:41 am
*StCrispin* said:
The people reporting this were Veterans with more time in game than myself.  So I'm pretty sure they understand how training works.


I'm also a veteran with considerable more time in this game than yourself. This thread also contains post from other veterans who say they aren't seeing much difference in training. Being a veteran in no way assures that someone understands how training works now, or even how it has worked. I've already explained why expecting CHR10 spent on one ganger to inherently result in greater training than CHR5 spent on anther means the person either hasn't read Sam's explanation of how the training works or didn't understand it. And LF point this out early on in this thread.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 13, 2014, 1:18 am
So far my own testing is dead on for Sam's formulas. I'm not sure what occurred with the person who got 1 or the person who got Zero. Considering the formula described would have been as follows:

(Training Form) x (Base Value) x (Training Option) = (Result)

Where (Training Form) was defined as: a value from 0.8 to 1.2
Where (Base Value) was defined as: 1
Where (Training Option) included 3 options:
($500) defined as Premium only, increasing (Base Value) to: 2
(5CHR) defined as 250%
(10CHR) defined as 350%

Making the minimum 10CHR gain for a non-premium (assuming poorest Form) as follows:

0.8 x 1 x 3.5 = 2.8
(2 after hidden decimal)

Or Maximum for Premium in high form:

1.2 x 2 x 3.5 = 8.4
(8)

My own testing indicates my 5CHR gangers were at 1.0 TF. Probably due to Mot4 influence. As I had one ($500) Option guy get 1, most got 2 and a handful got 3. The 5CHR guys getting 5 (1x2x2.5=5)

However 2 guys in Morgan got 5 with no TC and no expense. Perhaps a perk of that town as "endgame materiel"
Alec Burke


Posted Sep 13, 2014, 1:21 am
*StCrispin* said:
So if I received an average of 2 on my regular guys (most common skill gain for the 20 or so in SS) then 5CHR should result in 2 x 2.5 = 5 (which is exactly what my two 5CHR guys gained).  And unless the training for degrades this week for them, they should get 2 x 3.5 for 10CHR next week = 7


This is what Sam posted earlier in the thread:

The numbers:

Assuming free offline training has a relative training speed of 1.0 unit per week, then:
- DW$500/week training gives a relative training speed of 2.0 units
- CHR5/week gives a relative training speed of 3.75 units
- CHR10/week gives a relative training speed of 4.5 units



So 5CHR is not 2x what a ganger was receiving using DW$500, although rounding could make it appear as if it is. And 10CHR is far from being double of 5CHR. At lower training form, 10CHR would not even appear any different from 5CHR due to rounding. So your proposed test indicates that you yourself aren't understanding the impact you should be expecting. A ganger earning .5 a week with free training, would show as 1. That ganger would still show as 1 for DW$500. And only as 2 for both 5CHR and 10CHR. And looking at averages across your gang is going to make this even harder to see. And then there are the changes in training form week to week which we can't see. As well as the effect of nearing a cap - I've seen this effect start as early as being at least 10 or 15 points from a cap, perhaps even earlier.

A ganger who received 2 points from DW$500 could actually be anywhere between 1.5 and 2.49 (assuming rounding isn't one sided). That means for 5CHR he should receive between 2.81 (3) and 4.67 (5) and for 10CHR, between 3.38 (3) and 5.6 (6). Notice that there isn't significant difference between what is likely to be seen. Which is a point Lord Foul brought up early in this thread and why I said I'd like the CHR option to be a more fixed training amount each week.

It'd be a very odd bug which allowed some people to get exceptional training, like I did (beyond what has ever been possible previously), when spending 10CHR but work negatively for others.

And that was really far more math than I care to do for this game. lol

edit: Your last post was while I was writing this, and as you say there you are seeing that the numbers largely seem to be correct. For individual gangers, I would think it more likely there is a bug with the ganger than with the training overall. Still think a fixed training amount for CHR would be easier for most people to understand. It does need to be values which don't make the premium training completely undesirable in comparison though.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 13, 2014, 1:44 am
A ganger can't gain 0.5 as Sam already stated 0.8 was the minimum.

And no 10 is not double of 5 as I had stated it was (according to Sam, 50% more than 5. But then he furthur defined it as 250% and 350% which makes it 40% more instead)

I wish I could find the post where someone talked Sam into expressing the idea in percentages and multipliers. I can't find it now, though I AM at work, and doing this from my phone so it's likely I'm just overlooking it.

Either way I'm simply saying that your huge gain only indicates your guy is in average training form. As do my gains. It still leaves the person reporting Zero gain as an anomaly. It also leaves Morgan as an unexplained anomaly as well.

I agree that a fixed value could be good but my own preference would be as a multiplier "addition" applied by the player after training so that he could choose the best gaining characters to apply it to. Although if the flat set gain were already based on top form, that would be better anyway so idk...
Alec Burke


Posted Sep 13, 2014, 1:56 am
*StCrispin* said:
A ganger can't gain 0.5 as Sam already stated 0.8 was the minimum.


So my gangers who have gone 5-7 weeks with 0 skill gain in SS with a level 11 motivator simply don't exist? Sorry, I have 100s of data points which indicate that it is true that gangers can gain much less then .5 per week from training. Can you please point me to a post where Sam has said that the minimum training a ganger can receive is .8? I've seen him say that poor training form is a multiple of "0.8 or whatever" but that isn't the same as saying the minimum is .8.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 13, 2014, 2:07 am
I think all data prior to about a month ago is moot due to changes.  I know as one point in the past TF could drop considerably lower.  But I'm pretty sure all that is different now.

In the past, travel time, injury, age, activity level, TF, and random values played a part.  I've never seen a ganger go that long with no gain myself, even in the pre-steam setting.

Which also brings up a point I forgot.  Sam did say activity level would influence training.  It is entirely possible that these people claiming Zero and 1 point gains for 10CHR may have been applying it to a someone who was seriously injured at the time training was applied.  I didn't ask that question...
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 19, 2014, 9:45 pm
I was a bit more liberal with my CHR this week (85) spent on 17 gangers.

Pretty much 5 skill gain each across the board, so I am happy.
*Longo*


Posted Sep 19, 2014, 10:07 pm
Iron Wraith said:
I was a bit more liberal with my CHR this week (85) spent on 17 gangers.

Pretty much 5 skill gain each across the board, so I am happy.


2-5 points for my 5 with 10 chrome each. Little disappointed, but there are more important things to complain about... World Hunger, Cancer, the odor in the Marshal's Lounge since Grog came back....  ;)
goat starer


Posted Sep 19, 2014, 10:52 pm
*Longo* said:
Iron Wraith said:
I was a bit more liberal with my CHR this week (85) spent on 17 gangers.

Pretty much 5 skill gain each across the board, so I am happy.


2-5 points for my 5 with 10 chrome each. Little disappointed, but there are more important things to complain about... World Hunger, Cancer, the odor in the Marshal's Lounge since Grog came back....  ;)


how dare you... that is the bottle of eau de chevre i gave him for christmas
Joel Autobaun


Posted Sep 19, 2014, 11:41 pm
Basically get 3 points where I used to get 5 for training. 4-5 perhaps when used to possibly get 7(driving training in SS for example).

So Motivator is nerfed and Chrome @10 will get you what old training got.

So to be a casual player and still be somewhat in the game... so to speak. Better be rich. Why did we do away with thime out of town counting against training again?
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 20, 2014, 1:39 am
Joel Autobaun said:
Basically get 3 points where I used to get 5 for training.  4-5 perhaps when used to possibly get 7(driving training in SS for example). 

So Motivator is nerfed and Chrome @10 will get you what old training got.

So to be a casual player and still be somewhat in the game... so to speak.  Better be rich.  Why did we do away with thime out of town counting against training again?


mot nerf: appears so. (Sad face). My Mot seems pretty pointless now.

10C = old training: appears so.  Not sure how I feel about this since I like slower skill gains to keep guys under 60 for SCL, but I do think to a new player without any skilled gangers to take up the slack, this could feel like a Milking Machine feature to make them buy Chrome.

Really unsure of my opinion at this time.  Surface opinion is that this could harm new player retention.

My test guy using 10 this week gained 6.  This was lower than the expected 7 which I had derived from my formula and his assumed training form as it appears to be last week, though it could be a result of a fractional rounding
*sam*


Posted Sep 20, 2014, 10:42 am
Just to clarify: $ training has not been nerfed. You're drawing wild conclusions from small amounts of data and hidden numbers. Its true that the flattening of form swings would have reduced the effect of motivator, but that was 2 months ago.. yet it's only noticed now.

I could reinstate the original form parameters and out-of-town hours if that's what people want. Both were removed in order to make things less random and therefore reduce confusion and complaints.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 20, 2014, 10:49 am
*sam* said:
Just to clarify: $ training has not been nerfed. You're drawing wild conclusions from small amounts of data and hidden numbers. Its true that the flattening of form swings would have reduced the effect of motivator, but that was 2 months ago.. yet it's only noticed now.


All I know is that before I was getting 4 to 8 per week with the majority landing at 5 to 6.  Now I am getting 1 to 3 with the majority getting 2.  I watched these gains week after week. Unless Motivator 4 had my entire SS crew at high form, and now he doesn't, then something changed 3 weeks ago.

Personally I don't care.  New Players will though. 
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 20, 2014, 10:54 am
I don't think its a matter of the old Parameters being what people want... It just seems everyone is confused by how training is actually functioning.

Like people Paying 10 Chrome for big fat Zeros.

(Im also confused why on the first week of the new options every single one of my SS people got a bracket on Cyclist. such as 66 (66). showing the for a gain but there wasn't a gain, and they weren't training in it.)

Also why are Morgan people getting 5 skill for free with no training center when no one anyplace else gets that much without paying chrome? is Morgan just a super-training location for free?

Last week my 4 guys got 3, 4, 5, 5
This week: 2, 4, 5, 5

While last week in SS for $500
10% got 1
70% got 2
20% got 3
Mr 5 CHR got 5

results this week were:
40% got 1
60% got 2
Mr 10 CHR got 6 (Mr 5 CHR from last week)
*Boonwolf*


Posted Sep 20, 2014, 10:58 am
My self have noticed better skill gains for the past few weeks without using CHR and Mot 0-2.
d0dger


Posted Sep 20, 2014, 2:25 pm
*sam* said:
Just to clarify: $ training has not been nerfed. You're drawing wild conclusions from small amounts of data and hidden numbers. Its true that the flattening of form swings would have reduced the effect of motivator, but that was 2 months ago.. yet it's only noticed now.

I could reinstate the original form parameters and out-of-town hours if that's what people want. Both were removed in order to make things less random and therefore reduce confusion and complaints. 


Sam, _something_ has changed.. I've seen the same types of results that Joel and St. Crispin are reporting comparing 3 weeks ago to the last 2 weeks... It's not wild conclusions.
goat starer


Posted Sep 20, 2014, 2:58 pm
My training performance has not changed one tiny jot. Wild conclusions it is
Necrotech


Posted Sep 20, 2014, 6:49 pm
The form flattening is a huge deal that is skewing the numbers in quite the negative fashion.

d0dger said:
*sam* said:
Just to clarify: $ training has not been nerfed. You're drawing wild conclusions from small amounts of data and hidden numbers. Its true that the flattening of form swings would have reduced the effect of motivator, but that was 2 months ago.. yet it's only noticed now.

I could reinstate the original form parameters and out-of-town hours if that's what people want. Both were removed in order to make things less random and therefore reduce confusion and complaints. 


Sam, _something_ has changed.. I've seen the same types of results that Joel and St. Crispin are reporting comparing 3 weeks ago to the last 2 weeks... It's not wild conclusions.
Joel Autobaun


Posted Sep 20, 2014, 6:55 pm
ya the train form nerf was a while ago...makes sense we notice it now...right?
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 20, 2014, 7:11 pm
With the training form adjusted, your motivator will be unable to give the same type of skill boosts. That explains the drop in training where 5-6 points are now 3-4. As Sam said, motivator has not been nerfed, it just has a smaller number now to calculate the training boost. So Joel and Crispin are correct that these numbers have dropped, but due to a different reason.

My training this week was better than last week. I used no chrome and got my 5-6 bumps like I used to. Plus, my one freak bump last week that got a 7 in Psi, this week he got 9. I must be lucky to have them training with a very high form at the moment, but it will drop and level out eventually.

For me, I don't care either way if this change stays or gets voted back. But I did like the varied training because you had to plan what guys go to what towns that had training centers. You were kind of rewarded in that regard, but you also suffered for the ones who were neglected or left without a center to go to.

I also understand some players feel the pinch more than others, especially the ones who rely more on weekly training because actual game play is minimal. The casual player. IMO, needs to be catered to a little bit more because these changes could affect their desire to play and subscribe. The daily players and grinders, well, we are all addicted and should be sent to Elms for rehab! So no worrying about our subscriptions being renewed!

But I would still suggest to put it to a vote to really see what the player base wants. Hang in there Sam, this topic is gonna test your tolerance level once again :rolleyes:
Joel Autobaun


Posted Sep 20, 2014, 8:01 pm
Sure... that's just saying it another way.

Basically Motivator is no big whop now. It wasnt nerfed....but all the mechanic surrounding it were.
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 20, 2014, 8:59 pm
Joel Autobaun said:
Basically Motivator is no big whop now.  It wasnt nerfed....but all the mechanic surrounding it were.


If the training form change was done without taking this into consideration, it would be an oversight that needs to be addressed.

I know Joel has, and other players too, high end motivators that took a long time to train. And motivator is clearly the best spec in that skill set. Those characters, as they stand now, could be pretty worthless unless they have cross trained in other areas.

If the training form is left as is, should the motivator spec be boosted to compensate?? Seems fair to do that or consider going back to the old form.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 20, 2014, 9:19 pm
For the record, I'm not crying about how unfair it is or anything. Just analyzing the program behavior with an eye for potential gripes from paying customers.

I don't really care about training either way but if it's here and it costs real money and it has appearances of being a chrome sink then it could result in negative backlash from less dedicated players.
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 20, 2014, 9:39 pm
Most of these complaints don't seem to be about the CHR training rather a perceived nerf to the $DW training.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 20, 2014, 9:43 pm
My spin on a solution:

Have an exhaustion/focus trait which affects training effectiveness.  One that is semi-obscured.  By this I mean have descriptions rather than percentages for the player to view.  In this way there is more range of effect for Motivator and training form status, as well as the transparency needed for a player to make the decision about spending real money for a training multiplier

Example:
Superior: 120% to 150% focus (1.25 to 1.5 training form)
Excellent: 95% to 120%
Average: 75% to 95%
Poor: 50% to 75%
Dismal: below 50%

Travel, scouting, time spent in hospital, and wounds would all have an impact on this percentage (instead of activity % because missing a leg shouldn't mean I have 85% ability to study first aid techniques or study how to aim a gun.  It would impact the use of the skill, not the speed at which I lean the skill)
*SmokeyKilla*


Posted Sep 20, 2014, 11:44 pm
i think the main problem is people are paying chrome for a random result ........maybe it should just be 5 chrome gets you 4 skill points 10 chrome gets you 9 skill points extra......... and motivator needs a better boost
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 21, 2014, 12:18 am
*SmokeyKilla* said:
i think the main problem is people are paying chrome for a random result ........maybe it should just be  5 chrome gets you 4 skill points 10 chrome gets you 9 skill points extra......... and motivator needs a better boost


Forking out real money with no chance for failure...

Then it's Pay-to-Win
*Maxxed*


Posted Sep 21, 2014, 3:11 am
As I understand it the chrome benefit is not random but a fixed bonus akin to having a motivator.

I really like the randomness of skill development and think that it would be a shame if it became more predictable or was a fixed bonus.

Basically you spend chrome on new characters with potential, to all but guarantee improved training form from the get go.
*The X Man*


Posted Sep 21, 2014, 5:28 am
*StCrispin* said:

Forking out real money with no chance for failure...

Then it's Pay-to-Win


Getting a guaranteed additional 4 points of training with chrome... hows does that get you to "win"?? Something that small of an increment, even over a span of months doesn't guarantee you winning anything.

Pay-To-Win would be buying a sniper 4 or pyro 4, buying that with chrome is winning because it has an immediate impact and advantage in the game and over other players.

Keep these small micro transaction in perspective. They do not help you win.
*SmokeyKilla*


Posted Sep 21, 2014, 6:01 am
Quote:
Getting a guaranteed additional 4 points of training with chrome... hows does that get you to "win"?? Something that small of an increment, even over a span of months doesn't guarantee you winning anything.

Pay-To-Win would be buying a sniper 4 or pyro 4, buying that with chrome is winning because it has an immediate impact and advantage in the game and over other players.

Keep these small micro transaction in perspective. They do not help you win.


yeah crispy  :p
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 21, 2014, 6:07 am
Pay-to-win only makes a difference in a PVP environment.

In the PVE environment (which is the majority -and for some the whole - of the game) it makes no difference to anyone but the player themselves. In DW this is as best pay-not-to-lose-so-quickly.

If Sam implemented a system where you could buy, say, gunner 50 (and therefore your choice of 1 specialism), what difference would it make to another player other than the ephemeral "fairness" argument.

There is probably a limit on what you should be able to buy off the bat to cover the effect on leagues etc, but then maybe leagues should be about player skill and not who has the best ganger at the time (which may simply reflect more time to grind the skills up).

It would make a difference to Sam as Chrome spent on that ganger would immediately boost his coffers, vs Chrome spent over time in training (or not if the player chose to train by eventing). It is therefore an economic decision for Sam, not a player base decision.

To make money, the game needs more ways for players to spend Chrome and for it to go out of the game (stimulating the buying of Chrome), rather than it circulating endlessly among players in the market.
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 21, 2014, 6:22 am
Don't forget that Chrome training can only take place in towns with a training centre.
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 21, 2014, 6:44 am
Iron Wraith said:
Don't forget that Chrome training can only take place in towns with a training centre.


Which is now EVERY town.  Except Morgan.  Where you get more skill training for no payment of any sort than the people in SS get with a TC and a Mot4 and 5 chrome.

X- my P2W was based on the GUARANTEE of 9 skill a week for 10 chrome (or 4 for 5).  On top of the 2 or 3 already gained.  with no chance of it being less.  That's Sniper in 4 weeks of very casual play (1 skill point in an event every 2 weeks type casual)

Im against any SET guarantee.  Plus it kills the entire RP side of it.  why sign up for a TC when you can just go to the shop and buy 9 points of skill once a week?
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 21, 2014, 6:47 am
Plus im partial to the idea I mentioned which was both transparent and opaque, and made the player put thought into how he treated his ganger to groom the best skill gains out of him through player interaction.

Rather than just waking over to Jimmy's Skills Emporium and buying 9 skill every week.
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 21, 2014, 8:09 am
*StCrispin* said:
Iron Wraith said:
Don't forget that Chrome training can only take place in towns with a training centre.


Which is now EVERY town.  Except Morgan.  Where you get more skill training for no payment of any sort than the people in SS get with a TC and a Mot4 and 5 chrome.


I can't set training in Gateway using Chrome (as chrome training is a function of having a training facility).  I presume the same is true in other towns without a dedicated training facility.  I supposed I could drive to SS, set training in the training facility there and then drive back to GW and hope it sticks.  That seems clumsy and I was assuming therefore that Chrome training wasn't designed to be used in GW (and I am not wasting Chrome testing it).
*StCrispin*
Swordstroke_stcrispin@yahoo.com

Posted Sep 21, 2014, 10:40 am
not sure why you cant get training in GW.  Sam stated:

*Sam* said:
- The concept of some towns not having training centres at all has been removed.


my guy got 2 points.

I was under the impression that the whole point of chrome training was for towns that previously had no TCs.  Maybe that changed.  Not that I mind.
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 23, 2014, 5:48 am
The concept of training centres may have changed, but the implementation obviously hasn't. Gateway has no training centre you can click on. That is where the Chrome training interface is accessed.

Therefore you cannot set Chrome training from Gateway.
d0dger


Posted Sep 24, 2014, 2:24 pm
goat starer said:
My training performance has not changed one tiny jot. Wild conclusions it is


Or perhaps it's a wild conclusion to think all the other factors for our two gangs are equal...

Very nearly every member of my gang trained 2-3 points more 4 weeks ago versus the last 3 weeks...
PA Racers


Posted Sep 24, 2014, 4:57 pm
d0dger said:
goat starer said:
My training performance has not changed one tiny jot. Wild conclusions it is


Or perhaps it's a wild conclusion to think all the other factors for our two gangs are equal...

Very nearly every member of my gang trained 2-3 points more 4 weeks ago versus the last 3 weeks...


Ditto
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 24, 2014, 5:37 pm
All my gangers in the past 2 weeks who I paid chrome for performed 5 points better than previously.
d0dger


Posted Sep 24, 2014, 6:21 pm
Iron Wraith said:
All my gangers in the past 2 weeks who I paid chrome for performed 5 points better than previously.
Sounds great if you want to spend chrome every week. We were just commenting on the steep drop in the subscriber based training that coincided with its price increase. Based on Sam's comments that wasn't even intended... But there it is.
Alec Burke


Posted Sep 24, 2014, 6:21 pm
Iron Wraith said:
All my gangers in the past 2 weeks who I paid chrome for performed 5 points better than previously.


Is that with 10CHR or 5CHR? For 10, it seems somewhat to be expected assuming the gangers are in the upper half of training form.

The way training works at the moment, paying CHR will always get you better training for that ganger than not paying CHR. The questions is how much better, since at the lower end of training form, it may not even be enough to be noticeable in whole numbers, while at high training form it can more than double it.

I've already said my piece on why I think CHR should result in set amounts of training which fall somewhere within the DW$ Premium spectrum. It would make CHR training a way for non-subscribers to get training, while still being something a subscriber might choose to do if/when they have someone in bad training form or want a consistent training as opposed to the variable training which can occur with using a training center for DW$.

The way it is now, anyone wanting the best training for their gangers has to be paying 10CHR.
Bolt Thrower


Posted Sep 24, 2014, 7:13 pm
d0dger said:
goat starer said:
My training performance has not changed one tiny jot. Wild conclusions it is


Or perhaps it's a wild conclusion to think all the other factors for our two gangs are equal...

Very nearly every member of my gang trained 2-3 points more 4 weeks ago versus the last 3 weeks...


I noticed this before the addition of chrome.  I noticed it when he said he was flattening the variability, but I had 4-5 people getting 8 points in drive or mech in SS, TX and SF, so it was very noticeable when they dropped to 3-4 points.  I am kind of wondering if training form randomly resets when Sam makes changes to the code.  Would explain some of the more abrupt changes I have seen.
Iron Wraith


Posted Sep 24, 2014, 7:25 pm
I am only spending 5 Chrome, I spent 10 Chrome on one ganger in week 1 but he only got a few points and it didn't seem a useful expenditure of a limited resource.

d0dger


Posted Sep 24, 2014, 9:22 pm
Bolt Thrower said:
d0dger said:
goat starer said:
My training performance has not changed one tiny jot. Wild conclusions it is


Or perhaps it's a wild conclusion to think all the other factors for our two gangs are equal...

Very nearly every member of my gang trained 2-3 points more 4 weeks ago versus the last 3 weeks...


I noticed this before the addition of chrome.  I noticed it when he said he was flattening the variability, but I had 4-5 people getting 8 points in drive or mech in SS, TX and SF, so it was very noticeable when they dropped to 3-4 points.  I am kind of wondering if training form randomly resets when Sam makes changes to the code.  Would explain some of the more abrupt changes I have seen.


That might explain it... if guys who'd been training with a motivator 9 for months were all pegged at max training form and they suddenly got reset to 'zero'...

For me the training on Sep 5th (sam announced changes later that day) had a lot of the expected 3-5's with driver/cyclist (in SS) getting up to 7, and the training on Sep 12th and 19th was 0-3 with some driver/cyclist (in SS) getting 4.

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