Engine v141, Scripts v305
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*sam* Posted Jul 24, 2014, 3:32 pm |
- Specialisms rebalancing (i.e. many of them now softcapped so becomes less effective at stacked levels.. see announcement from yesterday)
- BPU rebalancing (tyre settings) - Signup from game client (in advance of steam release) - Firing arc (up/down) changes., to +40/-30 degrees - I also made a change to one of the build settings on the Windows client.. would appreciate hearing whether people think the new engine is more stable/less crashy than the last? |
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*Longo* Posted Jul 24, 2014, 4:05 pm |
Sam -
BPU balancing - I remember reading that BPUs be changed to " specifically, to counteract its extreme maneuverability and braking". Will this change also fix the "dancing" BPU issues we have had in the past? Spec soft cap - So DD, Snipe, Pyro, DE all soft capped. Did I miss 1 or 2? Regarding firing arc - we wont be able to shoot as high, and not nearly as low as we used to,correct? Thanks, Longo |
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*sam* Posted Jul 24, 2014, 4:37 pm |
No. But I'm planning on looking at that separately.
also: laserfire, moving targets, rapid reloading, engine tuning, jumpstart, rapidshot, negotiator, car killer, slipstreamer, eye of hurricane, mind control also, pending next server-side patch: offensive driver
Yep. Up direction used to be 45 now 40 degrees. Down direction also used to be 45 now 30 degrees. |
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musashi_san Posted Jul 24, 2014, 5:38 pm |
any chance we can respec just specs past 3 on the new soft caps? wouldn't have gone to sniper 7 with these rules... | ||||||||
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darthspanky Posted Jul 24, 2014, 5:48 pm |
sweet my leader is not soft capped because he is a lv 11 combat psychologist 
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*The X Man* Posted Jul 24, 2014, 6:13 pm |
On implementing soft caps, without getting into a numbers and percentage explanation, when does the soft cap actually take effect. Is it as soon as spec 1 or once second spec is selected or will some come later like after spec 4?? Also, will all of the above specs mentioned above, will they all soft cap the same way or will each vary from the others? |
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*sam* Posted Jul 24, 2014, 6:23 pm |
They are all done using power functions, with exponents of 0.6 to 0.8 in most cases. So lvl 1 is unaffected but above that each level adds less than the last | ||||||||
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musashi_san Posted Jul 24, 2014, 7:00 pm |
yikes, .6 is rather steep, almost square root.
sniper 5 with a .6 power function applied is like old sniper 2.62 even sniper 2 would be more like sniper 1.5 even with .8 sniper 5 is now more like sniper 3.62 not that sniper comes in decimal values, but you know what i mean... |
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*Longo* Posted Jul 24, 2014, 7:43 pm |
Just had a rear facing buzzer with 2xCCs in scout from BL camp. I had a snipe 6 and a snipe 3 gunner. I targeted an approaching Mutant Masher. Started to get purple at 119 meters with the Sniper 6 (although it went from nothing to almost mid way) and started to get purple at 106 meters for the snipe 3. I still won, but I think against harder opponents (It was my buzzer vs 4 nothings) I will have to restrategize. |
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*The X Man* Posted Jul 24, 2014, 8:10 pm |
Are there any other character attributes, like high Dexterity, Strength or Speed, that can sway the soft cap towards the 0.8 where lower traits align more towards 0.6? If this does come into play, it will make choosing your new hires to make sure they meet your standards. You just might even start firing existing characters that just don't measure up. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 24, 2014, 8:30 pm |
Since Sniper is not changing in its function, will the weapon specialization Specs recieve some work to make them as useful? I never take Sniper in excess of Lvl 1. Mostly on principal, since I really feel specialization a should be about specializing rather than generalizing.
I would like to see more useful benefits to being specialized to a weapon type like faster reload and better chance to hit at longer ranges (as a real life specialist in Machinegunnery is skilled at high angle ".50 caliber artillery" type shooting and how to tighten the "beaten path" and the cone of fire on area or point targets) |
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Juris Posted Jul 24, 2014, 8:35 pm |
Good change - my Hvy2 SN1 didn't get purple till about 80m (with a CC). My SN3 HCR guy started getting it slightly over 100m, about the same as my MG SN2 with a MMG and my SN2 ROC with a MML.
It seems like the days of 150m+ shots are over. I think the individual weapon specs already matter more because SN does less Edit: S648411 If anyone is interested. I didn't start to fire until I had purple |
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*K1500* Posted Jul 24, 2014, 8:44 pm |
That's good to know - I'm running some MG2 folks out in TX and noted that they started build purple at around 100m on HMGs. Also allowed me to do a bit of a test of the +5% acc HMG I have out there and it certainly seemed to make a difference (had the gunner with the lower LRG guns skill on it and it built purple slightly before the higher skilled gunner on a normal gun). This was prior to the new patch coming in - but that should allow some small level of comparison between SNP and the weapon specific skills. K |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 24, 2014, 11:46 pm |
I got a few guys with MG and SNP 2, they used to hit at 100 meters, now they have trouble at 40. my sniper 3 to sniper 5 guys in cc's are about just as bad now when they used to hit at 130 to 180 meters. and my guy with Hvy.Snp3.RR2.RS is having trouble hitting at 50 meters with a HCR.
I'm unhappy about this, not that it should matter much, but i think i'm out till this gets sorted, then i'll decide if i want to play more. On one hand i'd like to help sort this out, on the other i dont want to lose all my stuff i worked to get, and my crews in the process. I had not anticipated changes this drastic, even with the sniper nerf that was intended. |
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*SmokeyKilla* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 12:19 am |
Yes scouting certainly has become more difficult especially around BL. My concern now is SS scouting to hard for new players? I just did a few scouts there and even it seems harder with single spec gangers and 2 vets. Will this scare of new players?
I nearly lost my squad in BL. I think the nerfing might be a bit on the severe side, and i dont really want to move them back to the northern triangle to grind away improving skills. Since the patch the game is crashing a lot more, during loading, in the events, and after, i am not using full screen and running xp pro. |
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*K1500* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 12:31 am |
Start shooting earlier to build accuracy from sustained fire and carry more reloads to compensate for the reduced accuracy building perhaps? Run enemies out a bit more to break up the initial rush? Use more drops and side mounts to further break up enemy attack patterns?
What all these tactics have in common is they mean less sitting and shooting (except for strategic purposes) which to my mind is a good thing. Adapt your tactics and builds to compensate for the changes as opposed to trying to get the changes to fit your current strategies. K |
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*The X Man* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 12:34 am |
+1 Nice K, just what I was thinking. | ||||||||
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Juris Posted Jul 25, 2014, 12:57 am |
Well at least all those cheater SN8 NPCs just got wacked | ||||||||
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*SmokeyKilla* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 1:10 am |
Yes i did this......similar to how we play morgan defences, i think i will have to swap out my RL HMG rear setup to 2 HMG......see how that goes.....my RL hit ratio is extremely poor now. I have never run rear weapons in a scout (excluding morgan) so maybe im just crap at it
Biggest dif I noticed is the scouts I dog fight in. I took way more damage. I assume this was because defensive driving has changed. I think you guys are correct napes,mines, oil and spikes will be used a lot more now. Im gonna give em a try 
Dog fighting in BPUs is similar to before, but get a bit of speed up and they handle different. I would reccomend doing a race event before using em. |
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Bolt Thrower Posted Jul 25, 2014, 1:30 am |
hmmm... Listening to you guys, I think things may have gotten better for me. | ||||||||
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*SmokeyKilla* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 2:21 am |
Definately has evened up the PVP side of things by a huge amount |
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JS Posted Jul 25, 2014, 2:40 am |
Those don't do anything. NPCs don't shoot until 100m, so the sniper could be SN 105 and it just doesn't matter. As I've said before, for PvE, letting the NPCs shoot at a range longer than 100m would have fixed the Sniper problem to a large extent. For PvP, it's just simply not an issue as every player has the chance to build what they want, and shoot when they want. |
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Bolt Thrower Posted Jul 25, 2014, 3:09 am |
I need to test, but PVE may have gotten easier down south for me also. |
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Bolt Thrower Posted Jul 25, 2014, 3:11 am |
Client only works for me if I run as admin. |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Jul 25, 2014, 3:26 am |
turn off UAC, and by the way, windows XP is discontinued and no longer supported by microsoft | ||||||||
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*SmokeyKilla* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 3:54 am |
these changes have made a huge difference to PVP as now there is not such a huge advantage between say def2 vs def8 or sniper3 vs sniper8 as there was before.......agreed yes the higher specced ganger still has an advantage but not even remotely close to the one they did have when specs were stacked |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 25, 2014, 4:27 am |
I don't sit and shoot. I plow right into the pack and tangle it up (except in Morgan where that gets me killed faster) Im not sure if this change will have any effect on my playstyle since I commonly don't even start shooting until im at about 65m (unless forced to by accurate AI shots from 90m out) I am a little disappointed that the idea to keep SNP Generalized was used despite the poll showing 66% against that. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 25, 2014, 5:00 am |
First Impressions:
Sam something is messed up. I have to Login to the Web site, then Login to the client and then when the client loads it makes me Login a 3rd time with a blank window (or it asks me to create an account 50% of the time) Also it wont save my preferences or let me change the font and turns on the music which I clicked off. The only solution is to only run it in Admin mode which causes the client to automatically close every 30 minutes when it times out (I bet this is some admin mode setting that I don't know how to change though) What did you change that makes this no longer playable in any mode other than Admin? This will cause issues for people playing on computers that they don't have admin rights on. |
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*K1500* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 7:15 am |
Yeah getting the same as Crisp - which also means that Vent is screwey. Running Win7 myself.
Also noticing that the AI are now shooting outside of 100M (which is fine) - but watching X and Braune getting hammered in TX from 160m out. K |
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Iron Wraith Posted Jul 25, 2014, 8:04 am |
Weird, didn't know you could run the client in any other mode than with admin rights. This isn't really my preferred option as I worry about something tunnelling through and gaining admin rights. That's why I am running on a dedicated gaming laptop.
I am running on Windows 8.0 (spit) and I get crashes less frequently than I did. Before now it was crashing after every travel (last month or so, prior to that it seemed very stable but I wasn't playing as much). |
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*sam* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 9:02 am |
The thing to remember is that everyone is equally affected, including NPCs. It will tend to make combats more close-quarters, which will itself make them a bit harder, but it won't make anyone better at hitting than you who previously wasn't (unlike what would have happened if sniper was removed from use for any weapons) |
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*sam* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 9:06 am |
Where do you run Darkwind from, i.e. what folder? Each version of Windows seems to get more and more restrictive in terms of where applications are allowed to write to (which is probably a good thing overall, but it makes things awkward too). I think this trouble all goes away if you run it from a folder where you have read/write access. For example, use 'My Documents', or use the Desktop. I have actually re-built the setupDarkwind.exe version so that it defaults install to 'My Documents'. |
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*K1500* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 9:07 am |
Good to have confirmation on it's effect on the NPC's. Though I will say I watched X & Braune scouting out in TX and they were getting nailed at 100M or so (93m to be exact). They won the scout and we checked the casualties through the event register - no spec AI with 30-40 gunnery a piece. May have been they simply didn't kill the decent gangers I guess though. K |
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*The X Man* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 9:31 am |
Yup, they were some tough ol' hombres. S648499, The AI was was pretty accurate from the mid 90 meter range. But these guys hit at least the same as they did before the changes were made. Non-specced gangers should not be that good.
The encounter was very challenging and a lot more fun. (So good job in that regard Sam!). There was not much sitting and firing either. A lot of movement was needed as well as tactical posturing. I would like some other players opinions on this event on how well the AI did. I still feel the AI played above their skill levels. |
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*sam* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 9:59 am |
There has never been any difference between PCs and NPCs in the code that calculates whether a shot hits. Indeed, the code is unaware of whether a gun is being fired by a PC or NPC. I also just checked in case there is any difference in terms of sustained targeting, but there isn't. |
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*Longo* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 4:40 pm |
Very true. Example I just had - I had a 181 gunner with Snipe 5 missing at 50 meters vs a Wurzel. I panicked a bit, but then also realized they were missing me also. I won the encounter with no significant worries. |
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*Brunwulf* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 4:45 pm |
Shame- bad luck Wurzel! 
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*The X Man* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 5:13 pm |
One thing I did not take into consideration was the stress levels of the AI. We all got too used to hitting at range without fail. Once the AI got within 100m, they were so rattled, they couldn't hit accurately from 50m. Even though our characters will not have the range to hit as they used to, it means the AI will have better chances to hit you because their lower stress percent will increase their accuracy percent. After reviewing the recording of the event. I can see how choices made early can really make a difference in the outcome. Shooting early to build purple faster like we used to isn't always the best thing anymore. You purple bar takes longer to increase at ranged NPCs which means more wasted ammo. And we all know what happens when the bullets are gone. Sam, this change did make for a more exciting and challenging game play. There are going to be a lot of players fighting to adapt, but they must realize a change in tactics will be a must to survive. Do not do a rush switch to accommodate. This time, let the dust settle before anything else is done. To the player base, no rush judgements because of 1 or 2 scouts. Take the time to relearn strategies or make new ones. There is a lot more fun out there now instead of the boring hilltop fish in the barrel scenario. Again Sam, thank you for your dedication and hard work and dealing with a difficult player base. But most of all, thank you for giving me that much needed adrenalin rush that has been absent in my veins. |
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FireFly Posted Jul 25, 2014, 5:40 pm |
I just have to say, how does this make it harder for "New" players? New players generally dont have DD or Sniper 2's
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*sam* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 6:17 pm |
Thanks X Man. The feedback from people so far has been very supportive, so I'm hopeful this will have worked well.
You are right though, that certain things have been balanced under the assumption of the older system (e.g. the huge CR imbalance you tend to face on some maps may have to revised a little.. but as you said, this is best left until the dust settles) |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 25, 2014, 9:21 pm |
I'm actually missing LESS and hitting at longer ranges than before (83m instead of my usual 64m) My guys I ran were SNP1, MOV1, on a +5 MMG and a +5 HMG. Didn't see much change for the CC or ATG gunners. |
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*K1500* Posted Jul 25, 2014, 10:24 pm |
Yeah it's interesting seeing how the different specs are behaving. My SNP2 on a +5% acc CC is building purple later but once he starts to it pretty much jumps to a full bar straight away - somewhere around 90m or so. My MG3 guy on a HMG (+5% Acc & Dam) takes a little longer, but again once he starts building purple it goes from almost nothing to pretty much full in a turn at about 80m or so. I'm getting the feeling that the base skill level is perhaps playing a bigger role than it had previously (perhaps simple due to SNP playing a bit of a lesser role). Don't know if it's at all related but the enemies do seem to be resigning a bit later as well - but this could with us not stressing them out quite so early. Almost always having to wreck their engines to force a resign (after numerous turns of blue text). K |
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*sam* Posted Jul 26, 2014, 10:07 am |
That sounds likely, yes.
One thing this underlines is that we're dealing with a very complex system at this point, with many factors influencing each other in different ways.. which is why treading with caution is advised when it comes to making changes. I have tended to be a bit heavy-handed at times. |
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*K1500* Posted Jul 26, 2014, 10:43 am |
I can only start to imaging how complex the relationship is between the different elements within the game. On the whole I think that the change has been a good one - the AI certainly seems to be "playing" a better game than we may have been previously used to.
I also quite like that the raw skills are potentially playing a bigger part. It's going to highlight a good contrast between the specialists and those who go for cross-training. I've been enjoying experimenting with the different specialisms as well. I am slightly dreading the first Morgan defence. If some of the southern scouts I've seen are anything to go by then the defence could be a bit more like some of the early ones before we got established - i.e. thrilling, chaotic and scary! Of course it may all go well if we're wary and coordinated. K |
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*Boonwolf* Posted Jul 26, 2014, 11:57 am |
I for one haven't had to much issue fighting in Morgan or Texan. Do like the closer fighting. Sniper 4 HVY 3 MT 1 isn't getting purple until
105-95M but he has lost 3 legs so yeah he is a bit demoralize or enraged IDK 
Note tail gunning a CC |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 26, 2014, 8:01 pm |
Co-ordinated he say...
And this happens in Morgan how often? Lol. We are like a pack of hungry wild animals chasing a cheeseburger. Lol. Sometimes I think we pull those off from sheer audacity and bravery, other times because we are so unorthodox that it confuses the AI |
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*K1500* Posted Jul 26, 2014, 8:36 pm |
True - but compared with the early days of the defence we're very coordinated! We know the map better, we have generally set (basic) strategies, people build for that strategy, we often have a drop vehicle, recently Smokey has been using ballistics, we prioritise certain targets - for a while we had the muscle wing to split the AI pack as well. Sure it's no military masterpiece but there is a degree of coordination, even if it's unspoken. K |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jul 26, 2014, 9:11 pm |
I will unfortunately be missing this week's trial by fire due to the wedding and the recent discovery that we actually ARE taking a honeymoon. Gotta love how women change their minds at the last minute.
But due to car breakdowns my family won't be able to make it to the wedding so you might still have Boon's help. I also chalk our wins up to the Mogan crew having a close bond. We cover each other, rescue each other, and risk life and limb to support each other. We've seen what types of things can happen and can identify when they are about to occur and we react accordingly with heart and determination. I really think that counts for a decent portion. Heart, Intuition, Dedication, Courage. Sounds like some battle cry... Lol |
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*Longo* Posted Jul 28, 2014, 9:12 pm |
I updated the wiki for soft/hard caps - Does this look correct?
Specialism Caps Specialism Caps > Specialism Caps Contents [hide] 1 No Cap with Continuous Benefit 2 Soft Cap Due to Diminishing Returns 3 Hard Cap with Otherwise Continuous Benefit 4 Hard cap and Diminishing Returns [edit] No Cap with Continuous Benefit These specialisms can be taken as many times as desired, and each new level provides the same benefit. Machineguns Heavy Weapons Flamethrowers Ballistic Prediction Rocketeer Reload In Motion Salvager Jury Rigger Field First Aid Combat Psychologist Shoot from the Hip Long Throw Runner Recruiter Motivator Pragmatist Adrenaline Junkie [edit] Soft Cap Due to Diminishing Returns These specialisms can be taken as many times as desired, but each level provides smaller benefits after level 1. Exact numbers are currently unknown. Moving Targets Sniper Courage Under Fire Defensive Driver Deathracer Slipstreamer Pyrokinesis Defensive Energy Rapid Reloading Engine Tuning Jumpstart Rapidshot Negotiator Car Killer Eye of the Hurricane Offensive Driver Mind Control [edit] Hard Cap with Otherwise Continuous Benefit These specialisms can only be chosen a set number of times, but each level provides the same benefit. Minelayer [edit] Hard cap and Diminishing Returns These specialisms can only be chosen a set number of times, and each level provides a smaller benefit. Laserfire --- Level 3 Let me know if anything needs changing. Took me a while to find my wiki password. -Longo |
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Bolt Thrower Posted Aug 4, 2014, 10:36 pm |
R.I.P. BPU |