Darkwind
Darkwind changes coming up!, Steam release in a few months

*sam*


Posted May 13, 2014, 5:02 pm
Preamble

As you probably all know, Darkwind has been greenlit for release on Steam. This has brought me back in order to do some work on the game: mostly monetization changes, rules changes, and usability/cosmetic improvements. After all, releasing on Steam is a big opportunity that I should make the best effort with. I'm sure you will all be pleased if we get an increased user-base from this.

Prior to the Steam opportunity, I had pretty much shelved work on DW. Although I had always wanted to work on a new "DW2" project in the not-too-distant future, I see DW1 arriving on Steam as a great step in that direction: it will show what size of player-base we might be able to attract with this style of game, and all going well will give me huge motivation to stop arsing around with mobile games and focus properly on the real deal ;-).

I am of the opinion that gamer expectations have changed a lot in the years since 2007 when DW was first released. People are much more open-minded and willing to embrace original games even when they don't have AAA graphics, so I'm pretty excited.

The goal is to have all of the items below completed and the game released on Steam by late summer.

Rules Changes

I am working on a small number of significant changes to the rules, including:
1. Some rebalancing of specs
2. Perma-damage becoming the norm (as it is in Scav) so that we will expect to see many people fielding perma-damaged equipment. This will make the equipment-collection metagame and gameplay generally more rich and varied. The change will mean that perma-damage happens at the same time as normal damage, rather than happening at the time of fixing.
3. Mods and Buffs applying to weapons, chassis and engines. E.g. an engine could give 105% normal power output. The aim is for these types of buffed items to be reasonably rare, yet definitely acquirable through normal looting.

Pricing Model

The subscription model that DW currently has is considered 'old fashioned' these days. Most games have gone free-to-play and this is what most players expect. It also means a game gets the maximum possible chance of having people try it. The modern way of thinking is to let people play for free for ever, but to offer them things for sale that they value and that they will be happy to pay for.

Of course, some games have a sort-of 'halfway' pricing model where you can play for free and buy individual items as you choose, yet you can also choose to subscribe as a 'premium' player and gain exclusive benefits from that. This is the approach that I will initially take with DW. As I gather data and see how things are panning out, I may choose to remove 'premium' membership altogether in favour of 'full' free to play.

Free Play and Premium Play


Free players will be offered much more than they currently are. The changes include: full access to marketplace and mechanic, proper ownership of cars and ownership/membership of squads; full travel privileges in the Northern Triangle. They will however have a capped gangsize (10?) and garagesize (5?), and will not have access to the training camp or hospital, or to player-camps.

Premium players (i.e, subscribers), in addition to the things listed above that are not available to free players, will enjoy an increased field-training speed (especially of the Leadership skill). Each subscription will also get a package of hard currency. (e.g. a €15 subscription will get a 'bonus' €5 worth of hard currency). When I make these changes, I will immediately credit current subscribers with the correct package of 'hard currency' for their current subscription price.

Hard Currency


The normal model in free-to-play games is to sell so-called 'hard' currency to players. This is currency that is totally separate to the normal in-game currency, and which can buy various useful things. This is the plan for DW.

There is always a tension between monetizing a game effectively (yes, I do want to make money for my thousands of hours of work!) and allowing 'pay to win'. I have spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing the things that I want to make available for purchase thru hard currency, and minimizing a pay-to-win mentality has always been foremost in my mind.

I am planning to offer a range of different things for purchase through hard currency, although these may change as we see how things work out in practice. examples:
- specialist training camps, giving increased 'offline' training as well as training in skills previously only trainable in the field (e.g. leadership)
- equipment mods/buffs
- fixing of perma-damage
- cosmetic items (which are already purchasable in DW): skinslots, gravestones
- slightly improved new recruits
- camp sponsorships (but not stackable with the existing league sponsorships which are bought at auction with soft currency)

In addition, players will be able to sell vehicles, weapons etc. to each other for hard currency as well as soft currency.


Website and in-game interface


I am currently overhauling the website, making it look better and operate better as a functional application. It will also work properly on modestly sized devices (I'm targeting 800 pixel-wide displays as a minimum).

I'm also working to duplicate some of the core website functions into the game lobby. This includes squads and scouting, vehicle modifications and ammo, armour etc. - i.e. I'm focusing on the things that players do a lot, and that they will most benefit from having in a properly integrated way in the lobby.
musashi_san


Posted May 13, 2014, 5:29 pm
does
Quote:
Some rebalancing of specs

mean nerfing sniper? and if so can we respec?
Juris


Posted May 13, 2014, 5:31 pm
When?
*sam*


Posted May 13, 2014, 5:34 pm
musashi_san said:
does
Quote:
Some rebalancing of specs

mean nerfing sniper? and if so can we respec?


What I generally want to do is reduce the massive gulf between highspecc'd gangers and lowespecc'd ones. It's not good for gameplay when one player can snooze on a hilltop and pick off the enemy from 250m while that enemy has no hope of hitting at more than 100m.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a substantial difference between skilled and unskilled gangers, merely that it shouldn't be quite as huge as it currently is.

So yes, sniper is one of the specs.
I suppose a period of re-speccing is reasonable, yes.
Best wait until it's all in the game and we have tested it, though.
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 13, 2014, 6:01 pm
For the cosmetics: I know we can buy slots, but I am a lousy artist. So a cosmetics marketplace would be nice. Especially character models.

Because: I don't always get out of my car, but when I do, I want to hop around on a peg leg.
JS


Posted May 13, 2014, 6:43 pm
Bolt Thrower said:
For the cosmetics: I know we can buy slots, but I am a lousy artist.  So a cosmetics marketplace would be nice.  Especially character models.

Because:  I don't always get out of my car, but when I do, I want to hop around on a peg leg. 


Booya, lol
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted May 13, 2014, 7:09 pm
Bolt Thrower said:
For the cosmetics: I know we can buy slots, but I am a lousy artist.  So a cosmetics marketplace would be nice.  Especially character models.

Because:  I don't always get out of my car, but when I do, I want to hop around on a peg leg. 


A better player market would ne nice.  And one able to sell these Mods/Buffs items, Skin Files (I'd pay a fed bucks for skins if they weren't too much.  like maybe 99 cents for a 1 off or 1.99 or 2.99 for "I own the file")

How about making repairs more based on ganger skill?  assigning them to a job and it taking time.  Hard money to speed it up (or hard money for a case of booze and a bottle of booze speeds them up for a period of time) and while fixing stuff that ganger cant do anything else unless you pull him from that task.  Add a few extra gang slots for this drain but not more than maybe 1 for each 100 LDR capped at 5.  And players can rent out mechs on the market for DW or hard cash?
musashi_san


Posted May 13, 2014, 10:09 pm
here's something that has occurred to me. the npc gang fame issue... essentially, with the player base as it is now, all pirate npc gangs are beaten down to 0 fame before server reset on thursday. even in shanty, for example. i soloed from there for about a week going after high fame gangs and now none are left, other than my beloved muties. with many more players, will there be any famous gangs to hunt at all? dont know how they get fame back, obviously, but maybe some thought about how that might work in a much more populous world might be in order...
*sam*


Posted May 14, 2014, 12:29 am
musashi_san said:
here's something that has occurred to me. the npc gang fame issue... essentially, with the player base as it is now, all pirate npc gangs are beaten down to 0 fame before server reset on thursday. even in shanty, for example. i soloed from there for about a week going after high fame gangs and now none are left, other than my beloved muties. with many more players, will there be any famous gangs to hunt at all? dont know how they get fame back, obviously, but maybe some thought about how that might work in a much more populous world might be in order...


That shouldn't be a problem. Their fortunes are based on the ratio of cars defeated to cars lost, so it's not dependent on how busy the game is.
*Longo*


Posted May 14, 2014, 12:33 am
Sam-
A few things -

Will there be perma damage to stuff that sits in a garage and isnt used for a while?

Any chance to offer players a window where they can sell back cars/weapons/gangers for hard cash? Only good stuff of course.... but we have seen many players "restart" their gang several times and this would allow incentive for loyal, long term players a chance to do this and get something for the stuff they earned over several real years time.
musashi_san


Posted May 14, 2014, 1:15 am
*sam* said:
musashi_san said:
here's something that has occurred to me. the npc gang fame issue... essentially, with the player base as it is now, all pirate npc gangs are beaten down to 0 fame before server reset on thursday. even in shanty, for example. i soloed from there for about a week going after high fame gangs and now none are left, other than my beloved muties. with many more players, will there be any famous gangs to hunt at all? dont know how they get fame back, obviously, but maybe some thought about how that might work in a much more populous world might be in order...


That shouldn't be a problem. Their fortunes are based on the ratio of cars defeated to cars lost, so it's not dependent on how busy the game is.


sorry to belabor the point, but given that players are better than npcs (much better, mostly, with some notable exceptions ;), wont their ratio of cars defeated to cars lost be abysmal with more players?
musashi_san


Posted May 14, 2014, 1:22 am
*sam* said:

2. Perma-damage becoming the norm (as it is in Scav) so that we will expect to see many people fielding perma-damaged equipment. This will make the equipment-collection metagame and gameplay generally more rich and varied. The change will mean that perma-damage happens at the same time as normal damage, rather than happening at the time of fixing.


i'm a little slow, but it has dawned on me that this makes making more mundane objects like pho's and moray's in a camp much much more attractive (and lucrative), as these will come out all shiny and new and perma-free, right? very interesting dynamic change.
*sam*


Posted May 14, 2014, 8:11 am
Longo said:
Sam-
A few things -

Will there be perma damage to stuff that sits in a garage and isnt used for a while?


No


Longo said:

Any chance to offer players a window where they can sell back cars/weapons/gangers for hard cash? Only good stuff of course.... but we have seen many players "restart" their gang several times and this would allow incentive for loyal, long term players a chance to do this and get something for the stuff they earned over several real years time. 


I'll consider it. Can anyone else see pros/cons in this idea?
*sam*


Posted May 14, 2014, 8:14 am
musashi_san said:
*sam* said:
musashi_san said:
here's something that has occurred to me. the npc gang fame issue... essentially, with the player base as it is now, all pirate npc gangs are beaten down to 0 fame before server reset on thursday. even in shanty, for example. i soloed from there for about a week going after high fame gangs and now none are left, other than my beloved muties. with many more players, will there be any famous gangs to hunt at all? dont know how they get fame back, obviously, but maybe some thought about how that might work in a much more populous world might be in order...


That shouldn't be a problem. Their fortunes are based on the ratio of cars defeated to cars lost, so it's not dependent on how busy the game is.


sorry to belabor the point, but given that players are better than npcs (much better, mostly, with some notable exceptions ;), wont their ratio of cars defeated to cars lost be abysmal with more players?


No, the whole reason I use a ratio as the measure of NPC success is that it has no scaling effect. If an NPC gang wins 1 car for every 10 it loses, that will be broadly what we see if it plays 5 combats a day versus if it plays 500 combats a day.
*sam*


Posted May 14, 2014, 8:15 am
musashi_san said:
*sam* said:

2. Perma-damage becoming the norm (as it is in Scav) so that we will expect to see many people fielding perma-damaged equipment. This will make the equipment-collection metagame and gameplay generally more rich and varied. The change will mean that perma-damage happens at the same time as normal damage, rather than happening at the time of fixing.


i'm a little slow, but it has dawned on me that this makes making more mundane objects like pho's and moray's in a camp much much more attractive (and lucrative), as these will come out all shiny and new and perma-free, right? very interesting dynamic change.


I hadn't considered that, but you're quite right. I may need to look at Mech Ratings if this proves to be too much of a change.
*K1500*


Posted May 14, 2014, 8:53 am
*sam* said:
I'll consider it. Can anyone else see pros/cons in this idea?


I'm assuming that this indicates that there will be a server restart - based on that supposition the biggest pro that I can see with this is that if the longer term players stick around they'll be able to provide active "mentoring" to new players in the lobby. Giving new players a good first experience is incredibly important with FTP games and if the already existent players can do that then the retention rates of new players should be better.

While the following is written about mobile games there are similar statistics in the desktop realm (which I can't be bothered digging up at the moment).

Quote:
Recent data shows 20 percent of mobile games get opened once and never again. 66 percent have never played beyond the first 24 hours and indeed most purchases happen in the first week of play. Amazingly only around two to three percent of gamers pay anything at all for games, and even more hair-raising is the fact that 50 percent of all revenue comes from just 0.2 percent of players.


[source: http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/9/5699058/free-to-play-mobile-candy-crush-the-room]

I'd argue that the existent player base is your biggest tool in retaining new players in their first week of play. I had people help me out and show me how everything worked when I first started and I've tried to do the same for others. I'm sure this is a common story for most people here. A reward (based on gear/gangers) will encourage the long term players to stick around. The only thing I'd suggest is perhaps a maximum cap of how much people can get back.

I'll be sticking around either way (of course always dependent on my currently very variable income).

Racing Robbie


Posted May 14, 2014, 8:58 am
Woot!! A lot to take in there, first thoughts

Spec rebalancing – good thing to re-balance the game, should also make things more tense against the AI as well if your super sniper suddenly wasn’t so super.

Perma-damage and mods – yeah see that, fits with the game to my mind, good idea.

Hard/soft currency – ok get where you want to go with that, works for me. Always going to get people paying money to try and win – human nature but I think this that should allow players of all types good chances in the game.

Always nice to have the chance to get the hard currency features with-out paying as well, either through winning hard-currency, earning it or winning use of the features in competitions, or through  completing mission. Though I would stay away from any idea about turning the Hard Currency back to real money.

musashi_san said:
*sam* said:

2. Perma-damage becoming the norm (as it is in Scav) so that we will expect to see many people fielding perma-damaged equipment. This will make the equipment-collection metagame and gameplay generally more rich and varied. The change will mean that perma-damage happens at the same time as normal damage, rather than happening at the time of fixing.


I’m a little slow, but it has dawned on me that this makes making more mundane objects like pho's and moray's in a camp much more
attractive (and lucrative), as these will come out all shiny and new and perma-free, right? Very interesting dynamic change.


I hadn't considered that, but you're quite right. I may need to look at Mech Ratings if this proves to be too much of a change.


I think that this might be a good idea; it would allow smaller camps to be more effective turning out new stuff to sell on the player markets. Would make a difference to the economy, Price wars and all that – perhaps it would open an whole black market of trading between players ;-)

*sam*


Posted May 14, 2014, 9:14 am
K1500 said:

I'm assuming that this indicates that there will be a server restart


No, I'm not planning a server restart.


K1500 said:

I'd argue that the existent player base is your biggest tool in retaining new players in their first week of play. I had people help me out and show me how everything worked when I first started and I've tried to do the same for others. I'm sure this is a common story for most people here. A reward (based on gear/gangers) will encourage the long term players to stick around. The only thing I'd suggest is perhaps a maximum cap of how much people can get back.


I couldn't agree more. Although there's no server reset planned (and hence the rewards you suggest aren't necessary), I am working on a system for 'open access' scouts, where your squad has no password and where you get a leadership boost for bringing new players scouting.
*K1500*


Posted May 14, 2014, 9:24 am
Right - that changes things a bit then. In which case, as you said, the rewards are not really needed. The only con I can see is people trading in large amounts of _unused gear_ (or manufacturing stuff to trade back) - in which case a cap on how much people can get back for a trade in may be worthwhile.

Open access scouts sounds cool - and anything that builds connections between new and experienced players is a good thing. I may even be able to encourage some of my mates (who tried DW but never subbed) to come back for good :-)

K

musashi_san


Posted May 14, 2014, 12:39 pm
*sam* said:

No, the whole reason I use a ratio as the measure of NPC success is that it has no scaling effect. If an NPC gang wins 1 car for every 10 it loses, that will be broadly what we see if it plays 5 combats a day versus if it plays 500 combats a day.

i get the ratio thing... my assumption was that the npc gangs fight each other in the background, and that more players would mean that more of their combats would be against superior rather than even opposition, which would tilt the ratio, from winning 3 for 10 when half the combats are against humans to winning 3 for 20 when 80% of combats are against humans... from what you're saying i think my underlying assumption is false, though, so i'll shut up now.
Juris


Posted May 14, 2014, 3:46 pm
*sam* said:


I couldn't agree more. Although there's no server reset planned (and hence the rewards you suggest aren't necessary), I am working on a system for 'open access' scouts, where your squad has no password and where you get a leadership boost for bringing new players scouting.


If we slay them do we get younger?
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 14, 2014, 4:23 pm
what about a 3 tier system.
Tier 1: free to play but you can't leave SS
Tier 2: same as 1, but your able to travel in the northern triangle and to morgan
Tier 3: full evan access to all towns.

And add incentive to go south, like a medic at the truckstops, maybe some sort of training center without having to go to the ends of the earth. If the truckstops are the hubs of commerce and trade, wouldn't that be where schools and medicine help would be located? I'm not saying to move Elmsfield or change anything there, it's just odd theres no "services" in the central area.
PA Racers


Posted May 14, 2014, 5:54 pm
What happens to older gangs when their subs drop? Will they loose gangers or vehicles?

Also think it may be good for the non-subs to at least be able to use re-hab, as that seems to be one of the biggest complaints I hear from returning players is that half their gang needs re-hab when they return.

Mabie new first aid spec/ drug counselor spec?

Will non-subs be able to assign specs?

How will non-subs competing in race/DR/Combat leagues effect points gained?

Will non-subs be able to enter league events out of the triangle?

Would like to see non-subs be able to use camps, but with some limits mabie, just dont let their mech's work. Mabie just let them be able to repair, and be able to donate. Not sure how I feel about use of camp markets.

Could we use hard cash to hire/rent npc mech's to work at a camp?

What happens to non-subs gangers if the get sent to the pit?

Will camps be able to make some of the items not currently available to be made at camp?

Just some questions/thoughts I had.
Krakhedd


Posted May 14, 2014, 6:19 pm
I know it's been brought up before, but perhaps incorporate the "unlockable maps" concept into this, too?

EDIT: Whichever way it goes, I would like to see new towns and new maps - it's not like there's not enough room on the map of Evan to fit additional towns. Plus, Sarsfield's description includes discussion of southern ports...??? Maybe new continents available?
*Marc5iver*
marcg@comcast.net

Posted May 14, 2014, 9:32 pm
I had been pretty inactive for a couple months and the thing I noticed upon coming back recently is the lack of stock races/death races in the client. Newbs will not have the resources to compete in custom events and will not be experienced enough to set up their own events. Not sure what the reason for limited stock events was but it might be helpful to put more of them back up. I know races and death races are where I got a lot of my initial experience.

55555
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 15, 2014, 2:17 am
*sam* said:
musashi_san said:
does
Quote:
Some rebalancing of specs

mean nerfing sniper? and if so can we respec?


What I generally want to do is reduce the massive gulf between highspecc'd gangers and lowespecc'd ones. It's not good for gameplay when one player can snooze on a hilltop and pick off the enemy from 250m while that enemy has no hope of hitting at more than 100m.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a substantial difference between skilled and unskilled gangers, merely that it shouldn't be quite as huge as it currently is.


I will stay out of this - this time - I look forward to what comes of this.  You really need to understand what a young gang can do to an old, geriatric, SLOW, sharp shooting gang, when you are looking at rebalanceing.  That is all I will say.
*Longo*


Posted May 15, 2014, 1:08 pm
Very good point Joel.

*The X Man*


Posted May 15, 2014, 5:35 pm
Joel's point now makes more sense to me now after playing DW for awhile and having characters that were noobish and up to a multi spec ganger. Once your health and speed decrease to old age, they will be more vulnerable to new or old players.

It took a long time to earn all those specs and I see the concern how nerfing the effectiveness would negate a lot of game time training.

Maybe it is the actual training that needs tweaking instead of the effectiveness of the spec. Sniper seems to be the most used and powerful weapons spec. So, instead of nerfing, what if it was restricted to just gunnery and hang guns?

If that was changed, maybe add an additional Large Gun spec (Long Range Targets) that would increase ranged attacks for large gunners.

This would divide the specialisms between the 2 gun types. That would mean a ganger, to be effective at range in both guns, would have less specs per gun type. This is kind of "self-nerfing" by players choice.

This, IMO, would bring a little more balance to character skills between new and old players. It would allow those new players a better survival rate when going up against veteran players because ranged attacks would be coming from smaller weapons or at a closer distance.

This topic has been discussed before, but with the relaunch coming, maybe this would be the better way to change specs for the player base as a whole. Your guys thoughts on this??

EDIT: One last thought before nerfing. As a last resort, leave the effectiveness as is, just put a cap to how many specs you can earn. Maybe a cap at 4??

These are just thoughts because I feel there will be a change made. This is just a way to get other player's views on this subject.
Juris


Posted May 15, 2014, 5:56 pm
Specs need rebalancing. If we can restore abilities lost through aging with Sambucks then it doesn't matter
*DoubleTap*


Posted May 15, 2014, 6:44 pm
*The X Man* said:


Maybe it is the actual training that needs tweaking instead of the effectiveness of the spec. Sniper seems to be the most used and powerful weapons spec. So, instead of nerfing, what if it was restricted to just gunnery and hang guns?

If that was changed, maybe add an additional Large Gun spec (Long Range Targets) that would increase ranged attacks for large gunners.

This would divide the specialisms between the 2 gun types. That would mean a ganger, to be effective at range in both guns, would have less specs per gun type. This is kind of "self-nerfing" by players choice.

This, IMO, would bring a little more balance to character skills between new and old players. It would allow those new players a better survival rate when going up against veteran players because ranged attacks would be coming from smaller weapons or at a closer distance.




Good idea, this.
Jety


Posted May 15, 2014, 8:03 pm
*The X Man* said:
Maybe it is the actual training that needs tweaking instead of the effectiveness of the spec. Sniper seems to be the most used and powerful weapons spec. So, instead of nerfing, what if it was restricted to just gunnery and hang guns?


This seems pretty reasonable to me too.
iceman


Posted May 15, 2014, 8:58 pm
It will be nice to have big group scouts again, that was the aspect of DW i liked best

However if the lobby gets regularly to triple figures *swoon* i predict that in-town events will turn into the vicious knifefights that some players always wanted

Not the place for 40+ multi-specced gangers
Krakhedd


Posted May 15, 2014, 9:02 pm
Quick thought - rear-guns will be next to impossible w/o uber-gunners if sniper spec is reduced too much - perhaps, reduce the rear-gunned penalty?
iceman


Posted May 15, 2014, 9:05 pm
*The X Man* said:
Joel's point now makes more sense to me now after playing DW for awhile and having characters that were noobish and up to a multi spec ganger. Once your health and speed decrease to old age, they will be more vulnerable to new or old players.

This, IMO, would bring a little more balance to character skills between new and old players.


I have an old gang because I hadn't played for 3 years and the difference in firing first if you can hit is very large with the right weapon

Old characters don't get to fire first, specs or not

The fact is the old gangs will be quite vulnerable to lucky shots  in any sort of balanced pvp play once the stacking of specialisms is reduced outside of the wilderness where the distances are smaller
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 15, 2014, 10:28 pm
Since I have never had good characters and I pretty much stink at PVP, I really can't say a lot. But it feels like my only chance is to turn things into a dogfight. Except for car rifles with my 3 best gangers, I can rarely hit outside of 50m against an unspecced driver. Where as, I get tagged by NPC's and PC's at 100m+.

On some maps, this is not a big issue, as terrain can save you. On some maps, you might as well set the car on fire yourself and walk away.

Maybe I will feel differently when I, the player, get better.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted May 16, 2014, 2:27 am
Don't feel bad Bolt. I've been here longer than X or Krak (yet less than Snipe) and I STILL do most of my fighting at 64m or closer. Personally I would rather have a slow skilled guy than a fast newer character and even then use terrain and dogfighting and getting in close and aggressive to offset anything an opponent will use against me. AI or Player. Although m not as good in PvP as I would like.
Racing Robbie


Posted May 16, 2014, 9:02 am
*DoubleTap* said:
*The X Man* said:


Maybe it is the actual training that needs tweaking instead of the effectiveness of the spec. Sniper seems to be the most used and powerful weapons spec. So, instead of nerfing, what if it was restricted to just gunnery and hang guns?

If that was changed, maybe add an additional Large Gun spec (Long Range Targets) that would increase ranged attacks for large gunners.

This would divide the specialisms between the 2 gun types. That would mean a ganger, to be effective at range in both guns, would have less specs per gun type. This is kind of "self-nerfing" by players choice.

This, IMO, would bring a little more balance to character skills between new and old players. It would allow those new players a better survival rate when going up against veteran players because ranged attacks would be coming from smaller weapons or at a closer distance.




Good idea, this.


+1 on this
*sam*


Posted May 16, 2014, 9:45 am
PA Racers said:
What happens to older gangs when their subs drop? Will they loose gangers or vehicles?


No, they will just be unable to hire/buy new ones until they get their number down.
*sam*


Posted May 16, 2014, 9:48 am
Thanks for the suggestions on spec rebalancing/training etc. I'll bear this all in mind, and I think the sensible thing to do would be to trial and tweak a bit over the summer in order to get it right.
*goat starer*


Posted May 16, 2014, 2:21 pm
i think you should play a bit!
FireFly


Posted May 16, 2014, 2:36 pm
Interestiiiing, I now have to make my long suggestion here, sorry about this everyone  :rolleyes:


Weaponclass proficency system, proficency systeeeeem /whispers

If possible I really do think that dividing the weapon skills into classes would make a lot more sense along the lines of below and then mold the specs to fit the categories instead of being universal.
Quote:

Automatics (Anything on auto)
Long Arms (Car Rifles, Lasers)
Missiles/Rockets (What it sounds like, the heavy rocket is still a rocket)
Heavy Weapons (Cannon sized weapons)
Ballistics (mortars)

You can work hand weapons in to, after all, a car rifle is just a larger rifle and shouldn't be to different from the hand weapon. Same with an RPG and so on.

You can even sub-devide them with specs like "Automatics > Heavy Automatics Lvl.1". Like that you'd have guy above avreage with HGG/HMG's.

It'd make a hell of a lot more sense to in my opinion, after all, rapidly reloading a machinegun/rifle is very different from a cannon or rocket launcher. It'd also finally put machineguns in the same category, the HMG is a larger machinegun and not a brother to the cannon  ;)



But I don't know if it's to much work or not, that's my suggestion anyway. Oh, and stay clear of range buffs, they're unnecaccery, the ONLY weapon type to have sniper should be long arms, car rifles and lasers pretty much.

I better stop before I rant, good luck with this anyway :D
*sam*


Posted May 16, 2014, 5:49 pm
goat starer said:
i think you should play a bit!


I will, honest! When I get the back broken on all these updates.
*goat starer*


Posted May 16, 2014, 10:11 pm
*sam* said:
goat starer said:
i think you should play a bit!


I will, honest! When I get the back broken on all these updates.


playing is good for you
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 16, 2014, 10:56 pm
Neat idea FF
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted May 17, 2014, 2:55 am
Since Lasers have no ballistic trajectory and don't have. A drift deviation due to wind or an issue with barrel temperature or environmental temperature or barometric pressures or humidity changing its flight path...

I just don't think Sniper should apply to Lasers.

I do think a lot more consideration needs to go into the skills and specs system. But I expect that's a lot more work than is needed to become Steam Ready. Plus probably a lot of effort that Sam would probably benefit more from investing elsewhere. HOWEVER I do think it would improve the gameplay and add a great deal of complexity

For me a connection to my gangers and their progression through "life" is what really sucks me in. So the more minutiae involved in individualizing them and making them more complex creatures is a game draw. I'm pretty sure I don't stand alone

A deep character system would benefit our player base retention when we start seeing a Steam influx
Krakhedd


Posted May 17, 2014, 6:42 am
I would like to see:

- Weapon-specific specs (RL, MG, HCY, LAS, etc) function much closer to what SNP now does - better range, better accuracy, better damage..

- Sniper have a significantly lesser impact than these specs, but more universal application.

Just another thought....
*Bastille*


Posted May 17, 2014, 9:54 am
Could sniper take longer to give bonus?

- Must target for more turns for bonus
- Bonus is reduced after a shot fired
- Bonus calculated after shot rather than per turn, so rapid shot is effected.
Necrotech


Posted May 17, 2014, 3:15 pm
Ultimately..

Each Main Skill

Instances

Large Guns (Give a few more weapon options for this)
Gunnery (Heavy Gatling/Machine guns should go here)
Rocketry (Combine Missiles, Rpg's and similar here)
Ballistic Weapons
Sniper Type (CR/HCR/rifles, other additional options)

Have exclusive skill trees.. with little bleed over to otherwise mutually exclusive weapons. (You could add "top tier" skills, but you need a certain level of proficiency in one or multiple main categories, which only be chosen once or twice)

Instead of nerfing Sniper.. make it's own class.

Good with a Bofors 40mm (CC) does not mean good with a HCR or a HMG.. etc

Creates a more specialized character set vs. (as it stands) a homogenized character.

This also leads more to additional skills for other Skill base characters such as medics and the like.

"Surgeon" treated amputees may have only a 10% vs. a 15% permanent loss

"Combat medic" Slows or stops bleeding for a character within a vicinity (on foot) or in a vehicle (but only 1 character at a time)

*Boonwolf*


Posted May 17, 2014, 4:26 pm
No one ever likes the idea of NERFING a skill.

As for sniper they with that skill they should have fire delayed no matter there speed due to taking aimed shots.
Krakhedd


Posted May 17, 2014, 4:44 pm
What about removing skill caps altogether, and instead, use the existing system - which already naturally slows training at higher skill levels - without caps? Some gangers will become "effectively capped" due to the difficulty in training further, either in the field or in town/etc.
*K1500*


Posted May 17, 2014, 7:53 pm
*Bastille* said:
Could sniper take longer to give bonus?

- Must target for more turns for bonus
- Bonus is reduced after a shot fired
- Bonus calculated after shot rather than per turn, so rapid shot is effected.


The other option is to to have a speed modifier on how the sniper skill works - the faster your vehicle is going the longer it takes for the spec to actually kick in.

The down point to this is that it would encourage line fighting and sitting on hill tops - but this already happens because there is a tactical advantage in doing so.

So good suggestions going on here.

K
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 17, 2014, 8:09 pm
Cant search my own post where I said a similar thing to FF (feel shame you camp forum peeking exploiters).

Changing sniper to become the spec for HCR/CR/laser/rifle/crossbow solves everything. Same bonus as heavy weapons for CC /TG and machine guns to MG/HMG/etc.

Since CR and laser etc have inherent range bonuses, this would make them slightly more effective as far as range goes. CR certainly wont become overpowered this way. Laser might, Laser still will require the other laser spec so it can be fired as often as it needs to be fired to be more effective than ballistics.

Essentially this would become a slight nerf for CC/TG as no more snipe for them. I think most of us can agree that would be welcome as CC is so far and away a superior weapon to anything else it is ridiculous. It still would be grand daddy at ranges under 100M (frankly this is where most Pve and certainly a lot of PvP happens). I dont think you guys with your 300+ Large gunners will notice a change even.

Rapid reload and rapid shot become the new must haves. How to nerf them I dont know. I suggest to look at it AFTER the sniper change. Perhaps some weapons rapid shot more than others(they might now I cant tell). I have made FAR more enemies from the 4 CC shots in one round than I ever did from shooting someone once from 250M with a laserbeam. rapidshot = dead gangers period. Useful as hell in PvE and PvP. Phase 2 of balancing in my opinion.
*goat starer*


Posted May 17, 2014, 8:33 pm
Joel Autobaun said:
Cant search my own post where I said a similar thing to FF (feel shame you camp forum peeking exploiters).

Changing sniper to become the spec for HCR/CR/laser/rifle/crossbow solves everything.  Same bonus as heavy weapons for CC /TG and machine guns to MG/HMG/etc.

Since CR and laser etc have inherent  range bonuses, this would make them slightly more effective as far as range goes.  CR certainly wont become overpowered this way.  Laser might, Laser still will require the other laser spec so it can be fired as often as it needs to be fired to be more effective than ballistics.

Essentially this would become a slight nerf for CC/TG as no more snipe for them.  I think most of us can agree that would be welcome as CC is so far and away a superior weapon to anything else it is ridiculous.  It still would be grand daddy at ranges under 100M (frankly this is where most Pve and certainly a lot of PvP happens).    I dont think you guys with your 300+ Large gunners will notice a change even.

Rapid reload and rapid shot become the new must haves.  How to nerf them I dont know.  I suggest to look at it AFTER the sniper change.  Perhaps some weapons rapid shot more than others(they might now I cant tell).  I have made FAR more enemies from the 4 CC shots in one round than I ever did from shooting someone once from 250M with a laserbeam.  rapidshot = dead gangers period.  Useful as hell in PvE and PvP.  Phase 2 of balancing in my opinion.



this is spot on.. its something we all know and the only dissenting voices are people resistant to ANY change, even good ones and those who fear having to adapt their play style.

Joel Autobaun


Posted May 17, 2014, 8:52 pm
Here is my post from 2011.  I'm glad people finally seem to b seeing it my way.  Just wish this happened sooner.

Joel Autobaun said:
ARRRG....cannot stay out of it...

Sorry Al, good try but terrible actually.  Sniper is a gunnery spec.  You just split the gunnery specs while allowing large guns even better xtraining with sniper.

Ok look:

Sniper gone - introduce "Rifle spec".  Allow respec only for snipers.  Rifles/CR/HCR - same/similar bonus as heavy weapons give CC and TG and ATG.

Laserfire - gives accuracy bonus(equal to bonus heavyweapons/rifle spec /etc and Rocketry would give).  To be clear - Lasers actually are going to be worse after no sniper spec, this just gives an equivalent accuracy bonus(like heavy weapons or rocketry) for the weapon spec.

Add SubMG to Machine gun spec.

Add misc weaps spec (Fletchette/shotgun/VS/crossbow/whatever).

Bonus points(not as dire a situation as sniper, and only my opinion):
Rapid shot needs a nerf.
DD needs a nerf.


http://www.dark-wind.com/forums2/index.php?a=topic&t=18735&min=0&num=20
musashi_san


Posted May 17, 2014, 11:17 pm
i have to reluctantly agree with this. i spent over 2 years getting a really shooty/snipey gang going and this will really hurt my gang's effectiveness, but i see the wisdom of a lot of what was just said, alas. hence my initial question about respeccing.... sometimes it's just obvious the way things should go and this is one of those times imo.
FireFly


Posted May 18, 2014, 1:31 am
You're hardly the only one to ever suggest that Joel, just because you're accused of a lot of things does not mean you're the only one to have those ideas around specs ;)

I've suggested such a thing at least one time before, if not more. God I was dissapointed over that sniper spec nerf (the nerf was totally justified) and the dumb backlash that got it reverted.

Anyway, retooling the weapon classes would go a long way.
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 18, 2014, 3:06 am
I don't want to see caps go, but it would be more interesting to me if a character had a different cap for each skill. So a 74 cap scout might be good at something else. Just a thought.
*Bastille*


Posted May 18, 2014, 9:59 am
K1500 said:
*Bastille* said:
Could sniper take longer to give bonus?

- Must target for more turns for bonus
- Bonus is reduced after a shot fired
- Bonus calculated after shot rather than per turn, so rapid shot is effected.


The other option is to to have a speed modifier on how the sniper skill works - the faster your vehicle is going the longer it takes for the spec to actually kick in.

The down point to this is that it would encourage line fighting and sitting on hill tops - but this already happens because there is a tactical advantage in doing so.

So good suggestions going on here.

K


yeah, I think its worth looking at it from many different ways at this point.
*goat starer*


Posted May 18, 2014, 4:55 pm
FireFly said:
You're hardly the only one to ever suggest that Joel, just because you're accused of a lot of things does not mean you're the only one to have those ideas around specs ;)

I've suggested such a thing at least one time before, if not more. God I was dissapointed over that sniper spec nerf (the nerf was totally justified) and the dumb backlash that got it reverted.

Anyway, retooling the weapon classes would go a long way.


Nine and I discussed it and suggested it years ago. It's been a recurring theme that got changed into a sniper nerf that was reversed because people can't stand change. It would have its biggest effect on scav as you need crews to be good at all weapons to keep them in ammo.

I really don't think anyone thinks it isn't a good idea... They just think it's not a good idea for their gang  :cyclops:
*Bastille*


Posted May 19, 2014, 12:00 am
Good for ones gang or not, really doesn't matter. There are very few players at the mo and they all know each other. Having a change at this point has minimal effect on anyone, especially if there is a respec to any degree.
Lord Foul


Posted May 19, 2014, 1:13 am
*Bastille* said:
K1500 said:
*Bastille* said:
Could sniper take longer to give bonus?

- Must target for more turns for bonus
- Bonus is reduced after a shot fired
- Bonus calculated after shot rather than per turn, so rapid shot is effected.


The other option is to to have a speed modifier on how the sniper skill works - the faster your vehicle is going the longer it takes for the spec to actually kick in.

The down point to this is that it would encourage line fighting and sitting on hill tops - but this already happens because there is a tactical advantage in doing so.

So good suggestions going on here.

K


yeah, I think its worth looking at it from many different ways at this point.


Possibly,

If I recall the main reason for the original backlash was that veteran multispec characters had a very hard time hitting above 100m with say a HMG which took 3 or 4 turns instead of 1 or 2 turns pre nerf to get a bead on the target(which used more ammo).

This in turn forced those hill sitters to change tactics or go all rear weapons and do a rolling battle.

Back then we had a lot more less experienced players that did the hill sitting and once the change was made to sniper, they were getting beat up due to not being able to hit or taking longer to do so causing more losses in characters and cash. No biggy for a vet to recover from, but a newer player struggling to get a foothold had more pressure put on them. So they pushed back on Sam.

If an idea like k1500s was put in, I doubt it would encourage hill sitting, but most likely get the player to mix things up a bit in their tactics or force them to either dog fight or fight with rear weapons more often.

The sniper nerf should happen, but you would also want to make sure newer players could recover from regular losses or they will end up leaving the game sooner instead of trying to stick it out.
Juris


Posted May 19, 2014, 4:38 pm
Joel Autobaun said:
Here is my post from 2011.  I'm glad people finally seem to b seeing it my way.  Just wish this happened sooner.

Joel Autobaun said:
ARRRG....cannot stay out of it...

Sorry Al, good try but terrible actually.  Sniper is a gunnery spec.  You just split the gunnery specs while allowing large guns even better xtraining with sniper.

Ok look:

Sniper gone - introduce "Rifle spec".  Allow respec only for snipers.  Rifles/CR/HCR - same/similar bonus as heavy weapons give CC and TG and ATG.

Laserfire - gives accuracy bonus(equal to bonus heavyweapons/rifle spec /etc and Rocketry would give).  To be clear - Lasers actually are going to be worse after no sniper spec, this just gives an equivalent accuracy bonus(like heavy weapons or rocketry) for the weapon spec.

Add SubMG to Machine gun spec.

Add misc weaps spec (Fletchette/shotgun/VS/crossbow/whatever).

Bonus points(not as dire a situation as sniper, and only my opinion):
Rapid shot needs a nerf.
DD needs a nerf.


http://www.dark-wind.com/forums2/index.php?a=topic&t=18735&min=0&num=20


Along those same lines:

Each type of skill MG, Heavy Weapon, etc should both increase range and accuracy of the weapon (to a smaller degree than sniper).  Sniper should just be a spec that effects rifle-type weapons like the CR.

The fact that a Sniper2 character is better on a machine gun than a MG2 character is pretty lame.  Yeah, the MG2 character can hit much better under 50m, but the Sn2 character can reliably hit at twice that range.

Finally, I'll repeat what I said when this whole debate went nowhere last time.  If these changes make scouting significantly harder... then modify the CR imbalance in scouting.  I'd rather have a small, challenging scout than a big dumb encounter
*Marc5iver*
marcg@comcast.net

Posted May 19, 2014, 7:00 pm
Bolt Thrower said:
I don't want to see caps go, but it would be more interesting to me if a character had a different cap for each skill.  So a 74 cap scout might be good at something else.  Just a thought.


I think this should be a must need to change. It makes no sense that someone will cap at the same amount for every skill. At least put them in categories, such as "driving", "weapons", "not sure about lumping the rest" :) so that all of the driving skills will cap at one level and all the weapons would be another. Ideally though, each and every skill will have their own individual cap.

55555
*Boonwolf*


Posted May 19, 2014, 10:18 pm
Having unseen talents one skill has a much higher cap than all the rest.

I like the 3 split capping idea. This will eliminate the people who cap check scouting by use of travels before skilling desired gunnery.
musashi_san


Posted May 20, 2014, 1:11 am
actually (and counter intuitively) having your good gunners also be capped scouts is a detriment in late game, as i have discovered to my chagrin.
*Snipe*


Posted May 20, 2014, 2:28 am
musashi_san said:
actually (and  counter intuitively) having your good gunners also be capped scouts is a detriment in late game, as i have discovered to my chagrin.


The reason that the Renshai shun scouting skill.  Why make things easy?
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 20, 2014, 3:32 am
Boonwolf said:
  Having unseen talents one skill has a much higher cap than all the rest.

I like the 3 split capping idea. This will eliminate the people who cap check scouting by use of travels before skilling desired gunnery.


Good call I detest that.
*Bigspenner*


Posted May 20, 2014, 4:16 pm
I haven't heard the term NERFing what does it mean exactly?

Jety


Posted May 20, 2014, 4:21 pm
In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change. The opposite of nerf is buff.

The term refers to the Nerf brand of toys which are soft and not likely to cause serious injury.
*Rev. V*


Posted May 20, 2014, 5:13 pm
"I've suggested such a thing at least one time before, if not more. God I was dissapointed over that sniper spec nerf (the nerf was totally justified) and the dumb backlash that got it reverted."

I was one of the folks who was VERY vocal about that.
This was because only HALF of the changes were implemented.

We were supposed to be able to respec so we weren't stuck with gangers that suddenly went to crap because of the nerf.
That part never happened.

If that part had actually been implemented, instead of leaving people hanging, I think there would have been far less resistance to the change.
*Splash*


Posted May 20, 2014, 10:04 pm
Joel Autobaun said:
Boonwolf said:
  Having unseen talents one skill has a much higher cap than all the rest.

I like the 3 split capping idea. This will eliminate the people who cap check scouting by use of travels before skilling desired gunnery.


Good call I detest that.


Totally down with that idea. I was 30 years old before I figured out what I was best at, so I can relate. (Which means in gang life, my skills were already deteriorating. Yeah, sounds about right...)

But Joel, anyone with any sense is going to do this--it's the way the game is set up, unfortunately. You can train a scout WAY faster than anything else, and if all caps are about equal, it seems silly not to find out where a ganger will eventually stand. (Then again, you seem to detest everything, so it's difficult to tell when you really are upset about something.)
:)
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 20, 2014, 10:11 pm
*Splash* said:
Joel Autobaun said:
Boonwolf said:
  Having unseen talents one skill has a much higher cap than all the rest.

I like the 3 split capping idea. This will eliminate the people who cap check scouting by use of travels before skilling desired gunnery.


Good call I detest that.



... anyone with any sense is going to do this--


hmmm...this implies I have no sense.  Is that why I am poor?  :(
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted May 21, 2014, 3:38 am
Bolt Thrower said:
*Splash* said:
Joel Autobaun said:
Boonwolf said:
  Having unseen talents one skill has a much higher cap than all the rest.

I like the 3 split capping idea. This will eliminate the people who cap check scouting by use of travels before skilling desired gunnery.


Good call I detest that.



... anyone with any sense is going to do this--


hmmm...this implies I have no sense.  Is that why I am poor?  :(


Do What?  Skill Scout to cap before skilling Gunnery?  I hate that.  that makes no sense except to people who want to find cap.  Id rather skill the skill I want to use.  Otherwise if it turns out to be a high capper, you just wasted all that time driving around uselessly and have to start fresh skilling the rest of the useful skills!

Bah...
*Bastille*


Posted May 21, 2014, 4:26 am
yep, pointless excersise
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted May 21, 2014, 4:55 am
Has anyone considered that when we have an influx of new players and many of which wont be here because they CARE ABOUT the game itself but who are here to be competitive and dominate, that the loopholes bugs and exploits we all spend so much time insulting each other about will multiply many times over into possibly community breaking problems?

What happens when 25 people are doing a Zerk ala Joel move or running Krak Convoys or shooting uncrewed Bastille-guns or some other method of play that makes people mad. Or own team killing or Chosen-One Racing or Point Padding or Driverless travels?
Groovelle


Posted May 21, 2014, 6:23 am
Well, just like the olden days, we'll be too busy scouting with each other to care.
*Bigspenner*


Posted May 21, 2014, 12:06 pm
Thankyou so its just the softening of a feature, a dumbing down or reducing of the effectiveness.

Got it.


Jety said:
In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change. The opposite of nerf is buff.

The term refers to the Nerf brand of toys which are soft and not likely to cause serious injury.
*Bigspenner*


Posted May 21, 2014, 12:13 pm
On the subject of skill caps the best way to do it for me would be that all skills cap and different levels that way the super gangers wouldn't exist and everyone would have to be more creative with their gangs.

As it is now any strategy gamer will want to know the skill cap and so the scouting to find it seems a good strategic move. The roleplayers sometimes argue about it but then again if I really ran my gang in character as the leader, I would probably still want to find out what my crew were capable of and would maybe get them to do their apprenticeship doing courier runs to build up their basic skills and area knowledge.

I don't really do it because its boring but if you really want gang progression it is justifiable either way. It is boring way to play though.

I think the bickering over each others play styles is pointless but I would like the caps to be more varied I think.
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 21, 2014, 3:25 pm
StCrispin said:
Has anyone considered that when we have an influx of new players and many of which wont be here because they CARE ABOUT the game itself but who are here to be competitive and dominate, that the loopholes bugs and exploits we all spend so much time insulting each other about will multiply many times over into possibly community breaking problems?

What happens when 25 people are doing a Zerk ala Joel move or running Krak Convoys or shooting uncrewed Bastille-guns or some other method of play that makes people mad.  Or own team killing or Chosen-One Racing or Point Padding or Driverless travels?


I am concerned and frankly more concerned about new juans more than anything.  Frankly we are lucky to have him right now and he should have a good loong talk with sam about closing the various loopholes about the website security issues.  Its for everyone's benefit.

For myself...after that zerk Coe bull#### , I sent a huge pm to sam explaining every single dodgy thing I am liable to do in events...camp warfare and other stuff.  With satisfaction I can say he blessed them all. 
*Bastille*


Posted May 21, 2014, 4:02 pm
Yeah I agree. I do think its good for the game to address as much as this stuff as possible, as soon as possible. I also understand this is not an easy (or maybe even possible) thing to do.

bouncy ball guy said:
On the subject of skill caps the best way to do it for me would be that all skills cap and different levels that way the super gangers wouldn't exist and everyone would have to be more creative with their gangs.


Yes yes yes, all for that. Just because one is a good truck driver does not mean they could be a good driver (or cyclist  :cyclops:). Gunner, might not be good with handling the recoil of heavy guns, the finite skills for sniping etc. The poit about super gangers and getting creative. Love it. This please if possible.

Im all about possibilities today. (anyone played X-Afterbirth 2.0? thats impossible)
*Splash*


Posted May 21, 2014, 10:59 pm
Eh, maybe I read it wrong. I certainly don't send every new ganger on a trip around the triangle just to see if they are a low capper. But if they are going to be a scout/driver, I will do that, and if she caps at 80, there is no real reason to keep her.

In the new model, I might be throwing away someone who caps at 150 in gunnery, but now, I'm pretty sure she's going to eventually learn to suck at everything, so why bother?
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 21, 2014, 11:24 pm
*Splash* said:

In the new model, I might be throwing away someone who caps at 150 in gunnery, but now, I'm pretty sure she's going to eventually learn to suck at everything, so why bother?


Some of us are just masochists, so we keep our Gumps.  Also, they can be useful for SCL.
*Bastille*


Posted May 22, 2014, 12:25 am
They can be useful anywhere.

80 capper, capped in everything

3 driving specs
- DR 1 (can shoot and drive a bit)
- DD 2 (can avoid some stuff)

4 gunner specs
- Sniper 2
- RS 1
- MT (or weapon specialism of choice. If LAS 1 we have quite a useful guy that can shoot stuff at 150m and shoot at a decent rate of fire, no need for reload in motion. Take MG and you have an apache driver that can effectively use side and rear mounts, or even a main weapon)

FA (not great but can patch people up after a fight, Ive had 2 FA characters past 100... 50 has patched up all characters in cars heavy bleeding before death for me, while the fight is going. Car manages to get back in fight and win the fight for me)

Mech spec.. Engine tuner, can use this character to gain slight edge in places I have no other tuner. Maybe good for travelling race team on the fly (short notice).

Basic scout - Fine for Northern triangle scouting. Can travel anywhere in Evan and survive.

Psi - A 50 psi character can knock himself unconscious at the most inappropriate time.

If you want a psi character, yes, 80 cap might be bad.

'Carcass' was an 80* of mine. Could drive a Flail with car cannon. RS, DD, MT. Get in close and knock out some cars pretty quick. Ive not got a replacement for him as he was expendable to a point. I don't want to run that car with a 150* character.

This character could not line fight to save his life, but could get in the mix and be damn nasty If I wanted.

130*-150* were some of my best characters in the game for years. I used them for running buzzers.

I still have very few characters past this point and have looted fire engines, run 6 truck convoys to Firelight many times and even won an SCL division.

What more do you need?

So there you have it, 80* is bad for a psi character, other than that, a perfectly useful character. Not super by any means, but perfectly useful.
*K1500*


Posted May 22, 2014, 12:37 am
*Bastille* said:
Not super by any means, but perfectly useful.


Snap. That sounds like my second in command who capped at 88 and runs the trainees out of SS currently.

Motivator Special Skill  Level 4
Sniper Special Skill
Jury Rigging Special Skill
Deathracer Special Skill
Moving Targets Special Skill
Defensive Driver Special Skill  Level 2
Rapidshot Special Skill
Rapid Reloading Special Skill
Field First Aid Special Skill

She's 4 points of getting a scouting spec. Perfectly good ganger and great in something like SCL4.

K
Lord Foul


Posted May 22, 2014, 4:30 am
bouncy ball guy said:
On the subject of skill caps the best way to do it for me would be that all skills cap and different levels that way the super gangers wouldn't exist and everyone would have to be more creative with their gangs.


Quote:
Yes yes yes, all for that. Just because one is a good truck driver does not mean they could be a good driver (or cyclist  :cyclops:). Gunner, might not be good with handling the recoil of heavy guns, the finite skills for sniping etc. The poit about super gangers and getting creative. Love it. This please if possible.

Im all about possibilities today. (anyone played X-Afterbirth 2.0? thats impossible)


Sure, just make sure the slump code is modified too so it does not target every single skill a character can train in.

Just because a character sucks at learning how to drive a truck does not mean that same character sucks at learning how to shoot a gun or applying first aid. etc..
*Bastille*


Posted May 22, 2014, 5:47 am
That probably makes sense. Someone might be in a slump and not want to learn anything, others may be talented in Music but really want to learn how to draw. After trying for many months all they can pen out is a basic stick figure, go back to music and learn a song in a week. Could add some real feel to characters. But I think one could become increasingly frustrated by that if it were implemented into our skill system.
*sam*


Posted May 22, 2014, 9:34 am
I can take a look at putting in separate caps for each skill, if you guys think it's important? It's probably no more than a few hours work.
*Bastille*


Posted May 22, 2014, 9:44 am
personally I think the most important thing is iron out any bugs possible.

If there is then room for other, than yeah. It could be cool.
*goat starer*


Posted May 22, 2014, 1:14 pm
*sam* said:
I can take a look at putting in separate caps for each skill, if you guys think it's important? It's probably no more than a few hours work.


i think this would be one of the best changes you could make.
musashi_san


Posted May 22, 2014, 2:11 pm
honestly i have to weigh in against this. at the start, maybe, that would have been great, but in this situation the end result of this will be that you're not gonna recap existing gangers. so the 300+ (or even 200+) gangers that vets have now are effectively the only ones there ever will be, no new hires will be that (or so exceedingly rare as to be negligible), and this then is unfair to new players. even if you just look at racing, there will never be another "wheelman" willits again, what was it, rapidstart 12? this to me is unbalanced...
*Bigspenner*


Posted May 22, 2014, 2:47 pm
That's ok , you could just kill off the top ten gangers (Based on Cap) of everyone whos subscribed as a paid sunscriber for more than two years.

Or you could just live with the huge advantage the vets have now for a bit until they die off. It doesn't make anything change immediately and record breaking gangers are unimportant to me personally.

Or it could be coded so that any ganger with more than say 1500 or 2000 skill across the 10 main skills is automatically capped in everything as a one off point in time solution.

Or you could just make the potential cap level higher, say double what its is now, double the speed at which skills accumulate and half the effectiveness of all of the specs to take away any long term issues with the new varied cap system. This would mean gangers cap at between 150 and 900 say and therefore the vets would still have a running start, not lose their gangers and everyone would have a way to move forward and develop.

Or you could just argue against change and not make any constructive counter suggestions all the time. (admittedly there is only one the above suggestions I feel solves the problem and adds real value).
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 22, 2014, 3:16 pm
Its a good change. Will the "free ganger"still have a chance at higher caps?

Ive never chased after getting godlike caps(using scout spamming or otherwise). I can make a 150 ganger a god in whatever speciality. My most famous ganger capped at 139 and my most notorious 79.

Dont worry too much about slaughterhouse cappers they are likely dying of old age. By all means though if we are going for a huge piss off of the existing player base ...definitely start deleting their top gangers.

Please fix bugs thou. Nothing will pay dividends like this. This cap thing and fixing /balancing skills is quite enough changes to try to accomplish for now??? Avoid too many changes at the same time...nothing has a bigger potential to kill a game.
*Bigspenner*


Posted May 22, 2014, 3:25 pm
Joel Autobaun said:
Its a good change.  Will the "free ganger"still have a chance at higher caps?

Ive never chased after getting godlike caps(using scout spamming or otherwise).  I can make a 150 ganger a god in whatever speciality.  My most famous ganger capped at 139 and my most notorious 79.

Dont worry too much about slaughterhouse cappers they are likely dying of old age.  By all means  though if we are going for a huge piss off of the existing player base ...definitely start deleting their top gangers.

Please fix bugs thou.  Nothing will pay dividends like this.  This cap thing and fixing /balancing skills is quite enough changes to try  to accomplish for now???  Avoid too many changes at the same time...nothing has a bigger potential to kill a game.



This is the one I really think would work as a way to bring in a variable cap, apply it to existing players without significantly disadvantaging them and keep the basic game the same.

"Or you could just make the potential cap level higher, say double what its is now, double the speed at which skills accumulate and half the effectiveness of all of the specs to take away any long term issues with the new varied cap system. This would mean gangers cap at between 150 and 900 say and therefore the vets would still have a running start, not lose their gangers and everyone would have a way to move forward and develop. "
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 22, 2014, 3:32 pm
Ok I thought you were kidding about 900 skill. Thats absurd. Then again to me 300 skill is an absurd anathema to me.

Beyond 150 the game is rediculously easy for pve. For pvp 150 is an effective ganger on most maps.
Jety


Posted May 22, 2014, 3:34 pm
*sam* said:
I can take a look at putting in separate caps for each skill, if you guys think it's important? It's probably no more than a few hours work.


As awesome as this would be, it's not strictly necessary for Steam. My advice:    STAY FOCUSED

Steam is no guarantee of success, so
Step 1 - release on Steam 
Step 2 - evaluate where further dev effort is best invested
musashi_san


Posted May 22, 2014, 3:39 pm
this seems reasonable, for existing gangers recalculate caps, and bump up to what they already are if it ends up lower than existing skill. also, because rolling for caps individually will push all gangers more to the middle of the bell curve in total, and a wider spread on the roll seems justified and would balance this. the same chance of a great ganger, just would be more variable between the skills, so instead of a 200 across the board, you could get gunner 290, drive 95, lg 145, ball 255, hg 215, which averages to 200. with existing rolls you'd get something more like 250 gun, 125 lg, 80 drive, 145 ball, 110 hg, which averages like 130. still everybody would be more average, and some people just better at like 1 or maybe 2 things, and most people really sucking at something too. certainly it would differentiate your own gangers more...
*goat starer*


Posted May 22, 2014, 4:10 pm
musashi_san said:
honestly i have to weigh in against this. at the start, maybe, that would have been great, but in this situation the end result of this will be that you're not gonna recap existing gangers. so the 300+ (or even 200+) gangers that vets have now are effectively the only ones there ever will be, no new hires will be that (or so exceedingly rare as to be negligible), and this then is unfair to new players. even if you just look at racing, there will never be another "wheelman" willits again, what was it, rapidstart 12? this to me is unbalanced...


Sam can just accelerate tgs ageing of the current gangers and you will never even notice. They die... We all have a level playing field.
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 22, 2014, 4:19 pm
Free hires cap lower. Maybe the wiki is wrong, maybe something is broken, it doesn't matter either way, the fact is, it is so, and no whining or moaning or finger pointing is going to change it.

Stop trying to add stuff and gets whats broken fixed instead. From my talk with sam I got the impression that to fix all the bugs would take 2 to 3 times more man-hours then the total Sam has invested thus far. When the game was petering out, there was no incentive, now with greenlit there is. But the math doesn't add up. if Sam quit everything else and stopped sleeping, end of the summer deadline is simply not enough hours.

The more that gets added without fixing stuff, the more the existing bugs will multiply and manifest in other ways. The limitations of the torque engine, both on the server side and client side, time would be better invested to making DW2.

Whats the point in banning someone who finds and uses loopholes, if in turn the loophole never gets fixed. It just means the banned player will start over, or worse tell everyone else how to use the loophole
musashi_san


Posted May 22, 2014, 4:26 pm
fair enough. but i still say it would be good, and kinda fun actually, if the bell curve on cap values was widened, if we're going to roll for them individually.


goat starer said:

Sam can just accelerate tgs ageing of the current gangers and you will never even notice. They die... We all have a level playing field.
*The X Man*


Posted May 22, 2014, 5:04 pm
musashi_san said:
honestly i have to weigh in against this. at the start, maybe, that would have been great, but in this situation the end result of this will be that you're not gonna recap existing gangers. so the 300+ (or even 200+) gangers that vets have now are effectively the only ones there ever will be, no new hires will be that (or so exceedingly rare as to be negligible), and this then is unfair to new players. even if you just look at racing, there will never be another "wheelman" willits again, what was it, rapidstart 12? this to me is unbalanced...


I like the idea of separate caps for each skill. Take into consideration that most current players may only have one or two gangers that have above 300+ skill. There are no gangs out there that have all their characters above that mark or even close to it.

New players will go thru losing guys numerous times before they actual keep them alive long enough to get them capped. If they do mange to say cap at 200 gunnery and then get large guns capped at say 140, they still have the ability to get that large gun spec up higher. Remember the training vouchers from SCL??

There will always be ways that new players, under a split cap system, where they can still achieve the same skill across the board. Even going to Morgan can help them with the weekly skill bumps.

The only main difference is that new players will need to spend a little more time training their guys to match what is already out there in other gangs. And if they are game grinders, they could get better guys faster that some tenured players that have less playing time.

If this change doesn't happen, I won't lose any sleep. If it does, it may not have as big of an effect as you think. We would need to hear from Sam on how varied individual skills would be. Maybe a 10, 15 or 20% variance?? When you look at the numbers based on average skills, that could be no worse that losing an arm or leg. Except you would still have the option to increase that lower capped skill the same way we do now.
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 22, 2014, 5:32 pm
Why not just remove the asinine caps to begin with?
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 22, 2014, 5:36 pm
I am all for fixing exploits and bugs. But there should be a list of bannable offenses somewhere, for anything that Sam cannot get done before it goes live. And all of the marshals should be on the same page.

Any configuration changes or nerfs like sniper spec rework or adding variable caps should be done before Steam goes live or forgotten about.

The Steam crowd can be very whiny about perceived nerfs. With the exposure that Steam brings, bad publicity is worse than no publicity.
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 22, 2014, 5:54 pm
and letting them know specs and skill levels were nerfed before they started playing on steam is a better option?
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 22, 2014, 6:10 pm
List bannable offenses for sure and also what is LEGAL BUT BITCHED ABOUT OFTEN.
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 22, 2014, 6:19 pm
Grimm Sykes said:
and letting them know specs and skill levels were nerfed before they started playing on steam is a better option?


Why tell them?

But, yes, making adjustments prior to a big influx of people so they do not feel like they have something that is being taken away is better than trying to make changes while they are here.  These forums are relatively civil compared to what I am expecting.

Edit:  I would like to add, that as old as this game is, a lot of the players will be expecting it to be balanced and not have any rule changes once they get here.
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 22, 2014, 6:39 pm
Who would tell them? are you implying that new steam players won't be able to read the forums for themselves?
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 22, 2014, 7:02 pm
Grimm Sykes said:
Who would tell them? are you implying that new steam players won't be able to read the forums for themselves?


Most won't.  Some will cry.  Others will be ok, because changes happened before they got here.

Change it after they get here.  Lots of QQ and vile spew on the forums.

Lesser of 2 evils is to fix before they get here or forget about changes.  Don't do it after they are here.
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 22, 2014, 7:38 pm
I agree it should be fixed and tweaked before they get here, I just don't see it happening that way.
*The X Man*


Posted May 22, 2014, 8:39 pm
I really doubt Sam would overload the amount work to fix bugs, the loop holes/exploits and game tweaks that would not allow him to complete before the relaunch. The first two items are the most important to have fixed, any remaining time would be spent on tweaks. Sam knows what he is capable of doing within that time frame and he will make the changes that are in the best interests of DW and the player base.
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 22, 2014, 9:26 pm
*The X Man* said:
I really doubt Sam would overload the amount work to fix bugs, the loop holes/exploits and game tweaks that would not allow him to complete before the relaunch. The first two items are the most important to have fixed, any remaining time would be spent on tweaks. Sam knows what he is capable of doing within that time frame and he will make the changes that are in the best interests of DW and the player base.


Let us all say a prayer for him then.  Woe to sam if there be a multitude of problems at launch.  I want it to be very successful he deserves it...even if its not the game for me personally in the end.  To this end i will not push for more pvp(but no effing way.any less!)  I do think having shanty completely open is not asking for anything unreasonable.
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 22, 2014, 10:24 pm
*The X Man* said:
I really doubt Sam would overload the amount work to fix bugs, the loop holes/exploits and game tweaks that would not allow him to complete before the relaunch. The first two items are the most important to have fixed, any remaining time would be spent on tweaks. Sam knows what he is capable of doing within that time frame and he will make the changes that are in the best interests of DW and the player base.


I agree.  I just think priorities are bugs, tweaks and then exploits.  Fixing bugs is number one priority.  But in my mind, any tweaks that will happen should come before exploits due to possible backlash they could have if done after community expansion.  Listing bannable exploits and then banning people who cheat until the exploit is fixed is a workable solution.  Just put the list in neon so no one can say "well, I didn't know."
*Bigspenner*


Posted May 22, 2014, 11:10 pm
Joel Autobaun said:
Ok I thought you were kidding about 900 skill.  Thats absurd.  Then again to me 300 skill is an absurd anathema to me.

Beyond 150 the game is rediculously easy for pve.  For pvp 150 is an effective ganger on most maps.


I am not saying that skills should get even higher. I mean that what today is the effect of having say 400 now takes a skill score of 800, the effect isnt changed only the arbitrary numerical value, its a way of introducing variable caps that keeps the vets advantage short term but gives the same longer term limits as the newer players, it illiminates the protectionism of the established gangs whilst still introducing a new system..
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 22, 2014, 11:55 pm
Bigspenner said:
Joel Autobaun said:
Ok I thought you were kidding about 900 skill.  Thats absurd.  Then again to me 300 skill is an absurd anathema to me.

Beyond 150 the game is rediculously easy for pve.  For pvp 150 is an effective ganger on most maps.


I am not saying that skills should get even higher. I mean that what today is the effect of having say 400 now takes a skill score of 800, the effect isnt changed only the arbitrary numerical value, its a way of introducing variable caps that keeps the vets advantage short term but gives the same longer term limits as the newer players, it illiminates the protectionism of the established gangs whilst still introducing a new system..


ahh k... but then sam has to tweak AI skills and specialisms are borked.  I'm sorry I have to veto this lol
FireFly


Posted May 23, 2014, 2:39 am
Quite sure only sam has a veto, that word has quite the implication :rolleyes:
musashi_san


Posted May 23, 2014, 3:45 am
what bigspenner means is what i'm saying, that if caps are going to be separate then the spread should be more. not the average, just as much chance of a 50 or even less as a 200+, but more varied. and yeah, the ai just can't do it. i do a lot of pve because that's what i have time for and to train for scl. well, that and in the hope of looting cool stuff. can never have too many lasers....
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 23, 2014, 10:11 am
It hurts worse, to find a guy who caps at 95, then to lose one that caps at 300. Getting a ganger is like a lotery ticket. Losing the low cappers gives you the chance at another lottery ticket.

I still see no benefit to caps existing in the first place... is it to force us to do SCL? Is it to make things interesting? Is it to enforce the opinion of futility?

Whats the downside to removing caps? None.

Way things are now, some gangers you know are worthless, some you know have great potential, and they are used accordingly.

Way things will be... No one can have 300 + in all 4 weapon skills, so they all belong in the disposable pile.

These differences may seem superficial, but govern how a lot of people will play.
Iron Wraith


Posted May 23, 2014, 11:08 am
Maybe the cap should be 100 in all skills.

2 Specialisms (which should be unique to the skill and not-overlapping - so no specialism can go above level 2) and you are done.

No-ganger should be so precious you are afraid to loose them, and no ganger so powerful that any combat against them is virtually a foregone conclusion.

Can't see it being popular with the "olds" though.
Necrotech


Posted May 23, 2014, 1:12 pm
*Bastille* said:
Im all about possibilities today. (anyone played X-Afterbirth 2.0? thats impossible)


Oh god EGOSOFT!... Why... don't get me started on that...
musashi_san


Posted May 23, 2014, 1:44 pm
hey necro, long time... and how is that game?
*Boonwolf*


Posted May 23, 2014, 2:31 pm
idea for removed low capping would be any skill over 300 would have what ever squad the ganger in open PVP. AI gangs offer bounty for this ganger of $100x skill.
just a thought!

after steam go live we will have to be self governed and self supporting. No more of the petty bugging Sam to fix this or that, or so and so needs banned for such and such.
We will all step up to be the keepers of this game and let Sam harvest the fruit of his labor.

Automated response to offenders cheats and such:
1 warning
2 1 week ban
3 so long sucker!
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 23, 2014, 4:15 pm
Dumb Down the characters (reduced cap) instead of improving the AI? Sounds like a shortcut to me
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 23, 2014, 5:31 pm
Boonwolf said:
idea for removed low capping would be any skill over 300 would have what ever squad the ganger in open PVP. AI gangs offer bounty for this ganger of $100x skill.
  just a thought!

  after steam go live we will have to be self governed and self supporting.  No more of the petty bugging Sam to fix this or that, or so and so needs banned for such and such.
  We will all step up to be the keepers of this game and let Sam harvest the fruit of his labor.

  Automated response to offenders cheats and such:
  1 warning
  2 1 week ban
  3 so long sucker!


Oh wow.  And who gets to be judge jury and executioner?

No only sam can ban people.

We used to be self policing and self supporting.  It was called open PvP.  It worked perfectly.  It fixed shark twice. 
When it was taken away shark came back and killed people in events ruthlessly and randomly in town events.  Sam had to ban him, reluctantly.  (Actually I think Sam tried to let him change his name and promise to be good and he still did it then Sam banned him).  A lot of bother for Sam that we used to take care of.
FireFly


Posted May 24, 2014, 12:15 am
Necrotech said:
*Bastille* said:
Im all about possibilities today. (anyone played X-Afterbirth 2.0? thats impossible)


Oh god EGOSOFT!... Why... don't get me started on that...
A wound we all share sadly...
FireFly


Posted May 24, 2014, 12:17 am
I hope you guys realize this but with a steam release, and possible surge of users...

Expect a lot of butchery in town events, for no other reason than "I wanted to kill him".
*Boonwolf*


Posted May 24, 2014, 4:38 am
Never stated giving community ability to ban, that would be stupid.
Only have veteran community review before getting Sam involved.

Fix bugs that can be fixed and fix A holes with reddings.
PvP gang targeting for town events would help.
Lord Foul


Posted May 24, 2014, 5:06 am
Joel Autobaun said:
Boonwolf said:
idea for removed low capping would be any skill over 300 would have what ever squad the ganger in open PVP. AI gangs offer bounty for this ganger of $100x skill.
  just a thought!

  after steam go live we will have to be self governed and self supporting.  No more of the petty bugging Sam to fix this or that, or so and so needs banned for such and such.
  We will all step up to be the keepers of this game and let Sam harvest the fruit of his labor.

  Automated response to offenders cheats and such:
  1 warning
  2 1 week ban
  3 so long sucker!


Oh wow.  And who gets to be judge jury and executioner?

No only sam can ban people.

We used to be self policing and self supporting.  It was called open PvP.  It worked perfectly.  It fixed shark twice. 
When it was taken away shark came back and killed people in events ruthlessly and randomly in town events.  Sam had to ban him, reluctantly.  (Actually I think Sam tried to let him change his name and promise to be good and he still did it then Sam banned him).  A lot of bother for Sam that we used to take care of.


Not that I'm agreeing with the views here, but I've had plenty of game launches under my belt from back in the day as a staff member for AOL and Gamestorm. The first week alone can be quite chaotic, especially in a lobby.

There are many things that can happen in a lobby alone that could be considered an actionable offense.

Without evening go as far as that, things like screen names and gang names in DW need/should be cleaned up before going live on steam. I can do a search on the word F&*K and find a full page of just this one naughty word in DW gang names and screen names. This would not be something I want parents seeing and should not be allowed at all.

It should be simple to write code to prevent this as it was incorporated into online games at least 20 years ago.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted May 24, 2014, 5:52 am
*sam* said:
I can take a look at putting in separate caps for each skill, if you guys think it's important? It's probably no more than a few hours work.


I think it would deepen the uniqueness and connection to the ganger.  So I think it is worth the effort.  However I think fixing loopholes and bugs that could lead to a game-breaking situation when used by multiple players is more important.  But I'd sure put the separate skill caps in the top 5 of my personal list.  Also some change to the economy would be in my top 5.  One of these days I'll share my ideas but ive been pretty busy lately between work, house remodeling, and the wedding planning.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted May 24, 2014, 6:02 am
Grimm Sykes said:

Whats the point in banning someone who finds and uses loopholes, if in turn the loophole never gets fixed. It just means the banned player will start over, or worse tell everyone else how to use the loophole


Ive always viewed the use of loopholes (not by me, just in general) as a method of calling attention to the fact they exist.  If there is a problem but no one cares or seems to think its a problem worthy of fixing, then use it and show it to be a problem.  When it becomes a problem to everyone else, that's usually when someone says "huh, this needs fixed".  Or that's what should be said rather than "Burnnnn  her!  Burrnnnn the witch"
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted May 24, 2014, 6:08 am
Grimm Sykes said:
Why not just remove the asinine caps to begin with?


Or tie the cap to Stats

And add in some stats to use for such.  Like Intelligence, Perception, Situational Awareness, Intuition, Mechanical Aptitude...  etc
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 24, 2014, 3:29 pm
Ramp up skill gains, Remove all caps, Force open PVP. Would make for a fun environment. These proposed changes i'm seeing though, IMO, will ruin this game and disgust quite a few players who don't read or participate in the forums.

Oh well, I always have the option to quit.
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 24, 2014, 6:22 pm
Grimm Sykes said:
Ramp up skill gains, Remove all caps, Force open PVP. Would make for a fun environment. These proposed changes i'm seeing though, IMO, will ruin this game and disgust quite a few players who don't read or participate in the forums.

Oh well, I always have the option to quit.


Fun environment for whom.  Making unlimited skill gangers with fast skill gains while forcing open PVP sounds great for no lifers with too much time who want to lord their superiority over casual players.  Sounds like a great environment for player retention.

Grimm Sykes


Posted May 24, 2014, 8:48 pm
Fun because it would take no time to train a replacement, or their competition, Granted you woudlnt get as attached to them, but if they are capping different in every skill, thats going to be the same result, less attachment.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted May 24, 2014, 10:49 pm
To me, the attachment is the most important aspect. So on this point I disagree with Grimm (Billy and Mandy do also!)
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 25, 2014, 12:33 am
StCrispin said:
Grimm Sykes said:

Whats the point in banning someone who finds and uses loopholes, if in turn the loophole never gets fixed. It just means the banned player will start over, or worse tell everyone else how to use the loophole


Ive always viewed the use of loopholes (not by me, just in general) as a method of calling attention to the fact they exist.  If there is a problem but no one cares or seems to think its a problem worthy of fixing, then use it and show it to be a problem.  When it becomes a problem to everyone else, that's usually when someone says "huh, this needs fixed".  Or that's what should be said rather than "Burnnnn  her!  Burrnnnn the witch"


That was my attitude until the zerk -coe thing.  Now I like to be have it all out there as much as possible.
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 25, 2014, 3:58 am
Grimm Sykes said:
Fun because it would take no time to train a replacement, or their competition, Granted you woudlnt get as attached to them, but if they are capping different in every skill, thats going to be the same result, less attachment.


We should just give people 150 skill across the board gangers and all available vehicles, guns, and engines the game offers.  You should also be able to change specs on a whim also and training should be super fast with no skill caps. 

Because lets face it, why spend any effort on this game.  Everything should be easy so I can win and move on.
*Bastille*


Posted May 25, 2014, 4:11 am
Sounds good, lets remove the whole game and just click the pic bellow and lets be done with this whole bothersome subject.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9l6yO8r5kLI/Ua8zFYdMpZI/AAAAAAAAGD8/tQCFkAnWEZM/s1600/win+button-u606-r-fr.png
*Boonwolf*


Posted May 25, 2014, 4:19 am
WTF I clicked it and I'm still a looser.

GAAAAA the game is broken
Bolt Thrower


Posted May 25, 2014, 4:32 am
Boonwolf said:
WTF I clicked it and I'm still a looser. 

  GAAAAA  the game is broken


Well now you know, and knowing is half the battle.  :D
*sam*


Posted May 25, 2014, 11:17 am
Lord Foul said:

things like screen names and gang names in DW need/should be cleaned up before going live on steam. I can do a search on the word F&*K and find a full page of just this one naughty word in DW gang names and screen names. This would not be something I want parents seeing and should not be allowed at all.

It should be simple to write code to prevent this as it was incorporated into online games at least 20 years ago.


Yah, good point thanks.. I'll fix that, should be easy.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted May 25, 2014, 8:42 pm
Will this include changes to the possible server generated names? Many of the ones available are pretty questionable. Some examples include:

Dick Swallow
Dick Spray
Fairy Fagger
Gaylord Fagundies
Harry Balls
Ima Hoar
Dong Dolly

That's just off the top of my head. Petty sure there are a lot more
Necrotech


Posted May 25, 2014, 8:51 pm
Gaylord... funny as it is... is an actually normal name...

In the US it took on some amusing connotations.. rest of the world.. equal to "Franklin"

StCrispin said:
Will this include changes to the possible server generated names?  Many of the ones available are pretty questionable. Some examples include:

Dick Swallow
Dick Spray
Fairy Fagger
Gaylord Fagundies
Harry Balls
Ima Hoar
Dong Dolly

That's just off the top of my head. Petty sure there are a lot more
*Boonwolf*


Posted May 25, 2014, 8:59 pm
Yeah if we're going candy land the name Dick should be removed. Along with some others.

That stated we must also determine the players this game will attract, and if it would truly offend players to the point they wouldn't play.

We're probably not going to get a big surge of 8 year old players who's mom will get pissed. Maybe some 20-40 who like having off color names.

Gang names and user names yes 100% but actually censored ganger names seems just a bit over the top.
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 25, 2014, 9:32 pm
StCrispin said:
Will this include changes to the possible server generated names?  Many of the ones available are pretty questionable. Some examples include:

Dick Swallow
Dick Spray
Fairy Fagger
Gaylord Fagundies
Harry Balls
Ima Hoar
Dong Dolly

That's just off the top of my head. Petty sure there are a lot more


What about 'Child' Mo Lester
and Seymour Kuntz
or one of my current gangers, 'U-Juan-A' Phil Maas
*Rev. V*


Posted May 25, 2014, 10:05 pm
If I have to rename all my nuns, I'm gonna be pissed....
*Bastille*


Posted May 25, 2014, 11:49 pm
Why wait?

Id be going to the bar right now if I didn't have to do scouts... ahh,.. school work
Lord Foul


Posted May 26, 2014, 12:00 am
Grimm Sykes said:
StCrispin said:
Will this include changes to the possible server generated names?  Many of the ones available are pretty questionable. Some examples include:

Dick Swallow
Dick Spray
Fairy Fagger
Gaylord Fagundies
Harry Balls
Ima Hoar
Dong Dolly

That's just off the top of my head. Petty sure there are a lot more


What about 'Child' Mo Lester
and Seymour Kuntz
or one of my current gangers, 'U-Juan-A' Phil Maas


Back in the day, when we had players try and be funny with their names we'd give them a warning and the choice to either change it to a more appropriate screen name or we would make one up and change it for them, especially if they refused.

I would not make a big deal about character names, but screen names and gang names have a lot of visibility.

It's not all about the age group you attract, it's about the professionalism you express to your customers, especially when going main stream. If people see that the developers don't even take the time to keep profanity under control, it makes the general game look bad from the outside looking in.

Steam recently started player reviews for their games, every bad review or negative comment can affect the bottom line, just like reviews on Amazon. Games are still a business.
*SmokeyKilla*


Posted May 26, 2014, 12:43 am
Yeah guys I think that the gangers taking so long to train and the fact that you do get attached to them is a big draw card in this game. (and they can die so easily). It is probably 30% of the gameplay for me.

I dont believe that the sniping skill should be nerfed to much there are plenty of ways to counter this, unless you get a really crap spawn.

I honestly dont believe that the character skills/training should be changed to much either.

Having said that you good always make a "training package" available at a $cost. It could be as simple as giving you 5 special training slots that allow a chance of up to 5 extra skill points a week to be gained or something similar.

Another thing I have seen in a lot of games coming out is pre-paid packages, lets face it Sam is here to make money.

You could have for say $20 a Dark Wind Legend pack.
you get an apache with a custom skin, some random weapons, and 3 gangers with one random skill between 50-100 each, and a Dark Wind Legend badge. :p

Lets face it these packages wont make a huge difference to the game, but there are a lot of people out there who will spend hundreds of dollars on a game when it first comes out just to get that winning edge. If packages like this were available when I subscribed I definately would have bought them.


*Longo*


Posted May 26, 2014, 1:20 am
*sam* said:
Lord Foul said:

things like screen names and gang names in DW need/should be cleaned up before going live on steam. I can do a search on the word F&*K and find a full page of just this one naughty word in DW gang names and screen names. This would not be something I want parents seeing and should not be allowed at all.

It should be simple to write code to prevent this as it was incorporated into online games at least 20 years ago.


Yah, good point thanks.. I'll fix that, should be easy.


Just dont be trying to ban "Merry Men" or "Bastards." The wrath would be too much for the Clarinbridge Crushers...  B)
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 26, 2014, 1:22 am
then that would mean we can call people bastards as well.
*Bastille*


Posted May 26, 2014, 1:26 am
As long as its in context

some friendly RP is fine, if calling peoples names personally, no its not fine. The same goes for any provocation whether or not bad language is used or not. Baiting or retaliation.
FireFly


Posted May 26, 2014, 4:11 am
Oh come on, Dick, Really? That's a rather perfectly normal name and should be treated as such.

You know, sometimes I forget that some parts of the world still care about such petty things as profanity.

I mean, not to start a huge debate or anything but here in sweden nobody gives a damn about cursing in general, hell, tv hosts are perfectly able to do mild cussing on national, prime time family television in the vain of "That was ****ing/godamned amazing/cool/whatnot."

I mean, it doesn't turn people or children into worse people, it's just part of speech. I'm not entierly sure what the big deals about as surely, it's the meaning of the words and not the words themselves that matter right?

Basically, words can have multiple meanings and uses and so can names, so meh to censoring please ;)



Besides, let's get real, there ain't no way in hell that someone to young for those words is going to play DW for more than 30 minutes without outside influence, is there?
Joel Autobaun


Posted May 26, 2014, 6:36 am
Ya but 'mericans cant handle swearing generally FF
Racing Robbie


Posted May 26, 2014, 8:14 am
It's a cultural/personal thing as to what you find offensive. And the debate as to what is ok could take years.

In the UK - it's also very much due to your upbringing as well. My wife using crap as a mild swear word where I find it still slightly shocking even now :-\

The swearing is going to happen whatever is in place, it's going to be a case of having some guidelines of what is acceptable behaviour.
darthspanky


Posted May 26, 2014, 10:15 am
i dont really care if changes are made i hated the other crap changes that were made long ago, so this prolly just be worse, imo i dont really care if people are offended and the whinners that say owe we must protect the children, ok just create more whinnny brats that get offended by words, to hell with them if there on here ill shoot there cars talk bad about there mommas smack them and take their candy B)
*Bastille*


Posted May 26, 2014, 10:52 am
I knew you'd say something like that! ;)
*Snipe*


Posted May 26, 2014, 4:14 pm
darthspanky said:
i dont really care if changes are made i hated the other crap changes that were made long ago, so this prolly just be worse, imo i dont really care if people are offended and the whinners that say owe we must protect the children, ok just create more whinnny brats that get offended by words, to hell with them if there on here ill shoot there cars talk bad about there mommas smack them and take their candy  B)



Rough talk for one who is PVP off.  LMAO
*Jagged Monkey*


Posted May 26, 2014, 10:06 pm
Oh no he said a bad word! I'm so offended. Boo hoo. Waah.

I'm reading a lot of smack from people I never see in the lobby or never have their flag on.

Pussies.
*goat starer*


Posted May 26, 2014, 10:09 pm
Jagged Monkey said:
Oh no he said a bad word!  I'm so offended.  Boo hoo.  Waah. 

I'm reading a lot of smack from people I never see in the lobby or never have their flag on. 

Pussies.


pussy is a rude word
*Jagged Monkey*


Posted May 26, 2014, 10:10 pm
goat starer said:
Jagged Monkey said:
Oh no he said a bad word!  I'm so offended.  Boo hoo.  Waah. 

I'm reading a lot of smack from people I never see in the lobby or never have their flag on. 

Pussies.


pussy is a rude word


But I like pussy.
Necrotech


Posted May 27, 2014, 2:59 am
I like rude pussy
*Bastille*


Posted May 27, 2014, 3:20 am
http://coolpicsandvideos.edublogs.org/files/2013/07/theyd-be-getting-stupid-out-2e5y5a5.jpg
*Jagged Monkey*


Posted May 27, 2014, 4:31 am
That'd make me a "job creator".
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 27, 2014, 2:34 pm
might want to adjust the specs on NPC as well. I know it's been said that the NPC's dont cheat but explain why they can choose sniper for all weapon fields?

http://dark-wind.com/character.php?id=1356391

This was in S637239 played by Paceys Raiders. Sniper on both ballistic and large guns
PvtParty


Posted May 27, 2014, 2:56 pm
Aye, he was one serious hombre! And that was a nasty ambush, to boot. Watch the replay and check out just how knackered the 2 Buzzers were, particularly the one that had to run the gauntlet back down the hill!

I'm not too bothered about the AI having an unfair advantage when it comes to such things as selecting sniper for all weapon skill types since the AI don't generally make much use of the sniper skill.
*Bigspenner*


Posted May 27, 2014, 3:12 pm
or very good strategic choices either
*Bigspenner*


Posted May 27, 2014, 3:24 pm
Does anyone know if taking Deathracer at a level above one does anything? the wikki kind of infers it is a one shot pony but the specs seem usually to be about progressive improvement. Anyone got a clue for me please?
ISHOULDCOCO


Posted May 27, 2014, 8:11 pm
Exciting !
*DoubleTap*


Posted May 27, 2014, 8:29 pm
Holy smokes, that looked like Coco.
*goat starer*


Posted May 27, 2014, 9:05 pm
*DoubleTap* said:
Holy smokes, that looked like Coco.


your imagining things again DT. Next you will be seeing Alo.
*DoubleTap*


Posted May 28, 2014, 12:21 am
As far as changes are concerned, I've heard that the item spawn times are pretty well camped by those that have taken the trouble to learn them. If this is true (and I am by no means sure it is,) can these times be easily randomized?
Grimm Sykes


Posted May 28, 2014, 1:10 am
If anyone was camping the shops, i don't think they are around now. I been seeing rarer muscles sitting in towns for weeks now, with inventory just increasing.

*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted May 28, 2014, 3:24 am
yeah only Noobs camp the shops. Once they get a few of everything they want under them, they stop.

Spawn times are 0000 to 0200 server time. one at 0000, one at 0100 and one at 0200. Unless this changed. I passed on my camping privileges to the newer guys so they could get some nice stuff.

Id rather see the shops take Orders for items and they have to be supplied with parts for making them by the players.

Make it less about having money and good timeing and make it more about having dedication and putting in a little effort. Plus it makes CPs, EPs, and Plastics more useful than just something to sell for money like trash loot.
Racing Robbie


Posted May 28, 2014, 6:49 am
StCrispin said:
Id rather see the shops take Orders for items and they have to be supplied with parts for making them by the players.

Make it less about having money and good timeing and make it more about having dedication and putting in a little effort.  Plus it makes CPs, EPs, and Plastics more useful than just something to sell for money like trash loot.


Now I like that idea, maybe they keep some basic stuff in stock but ordering stuff would be good idea. Maybe tie it into being able to break stuff down in town as well.
*Bastille*


Posted May 28, 2014, 8:06 am
goat starer said:
*DoubleTap* said:
Holy smokes, that looked like Coco.


your imagining things again DT. Next you will be seeing Alo.



He turned up somewhere a couple of days ago

*DoubleTap*


Posted May 28, 2014, 7:08 pm
StCrispin said:
yeah only Noobs camp the shops.  Once they get a few of everything they want under them, they stop.

Spawn times are 0000 to 0200 server time.  one at 0000, one at 0100 and one at 0200. 


Whether or not anybody camps them, randomizing the spawn times, or the excellent "order parts" idea, would be welcome changes.
Skidmark


Posted May 29, 2014, 4:26 am
Bigspenner said:
Does anyone know if taking Deathracer at a level above one does anything? the wikki kind of infers it is a one shot pony but the specs seem usually to be about progressive improvement. Anyone got a clue for me please?


This answer and more under the wiki entry Specialism Caps.
*Bigspenner*


Posted May 29, 2014, 12:28 pm
brilliant thankyou very informative
Necrotech


Posted May 29, 2014, 2:44 pm
Deathracer Level 1... Good to have....

Beyond that.. pick another skill such as Defensive driver or Reload in Motion.

Otherwise, you are just Leveling that skill for very little when that additional spec could be put towards something more useful and would (maybe) extend the life of your ganger just 1 race, scout, or combat.. more
Vroomhoff


Posted Jun 5, 2014, 12:28 pm
It's been mentioned elsewhere that group scouting should be encouraged by the game mechanics. Perhaps going with the "WoW" model of raiding = better quality gear, something similar could be implemented in DW.

For example, if you're going to go to "buffed" equipment, perhaps the average buff level could be raised 1 percent per player or something like that..
Necrotech


Posted Jun 5, 2014, 12:34 pm
Vroomhoff said:
It's been mentioned elsewhere that group scouting should be encouraged by the game mechanics. Perhaps going with the "WoW" model of raiding = better quality gear, something similar could be implemented in DW.

For example, if you're going to go to "buffed" equipment, perhaps the average buff level could be raised 1 percent per player or something like that..


This would be a sublime and excellent idea.... save one flaw, a little fly in the ointment...

Account dupes.
*sam*


Posted Jun 8, 2014, 3:44 pm
One of the things I'm working on at the moment is slightly boosted/modded equipment.

-Chassis can be modded up to 110% chassis health
-Weapons can be modded up to 110% accuracy and/or 110% damage

But I'm less sure about engines, would it be unbalancing to let people mod the power output of engines?
Necrotech


Posted Jun 8, 2014, 4:04 pm
I believe, with the exception of races, Engines would not be imbalaced.

Guns... that remains to be seen, however it does fit within the flavor of the game.

Perhaps looting guns that have -/+ 10% accuracy and/or damage may be interesting.

May create different type of Player Market for said items.
*sam*


Posted Jun 8, 2014, 4:18 pm
Yes, they will also turn up in looting
*SmokeyKilla*


Posted Jun 8, 2014, 4:50 pm
I dont believe 10% will make a huge difference in most cases.......having said that if someone was to bring 10 sub compacts each with  a HMG then it would be like having an extra
HMG so it might actually make low CR cars slightly more desirable
more bang for your buck Samolions :p

Will the extra 10% be reflected in CR or is it just a bonus?

And if everyone can mod/loot things with a 10% increase then its still a level playing field,  they can choose to use use em in scouts, travels or events.
Joel Autobaun


Posted Jun 8, 2014, 5:38 pm
Personally I detest powercreep, but whatever.
Insert favorite haves vs have nots argument here.
*The X Man*


Posted Jun 8, 2014, 5:54 pm
*sam* said:
One of the things I'm working on at the moment is slightly boosted/modded equipment.

-Chassis can be modded up to 110% chassis health
-Weapons can be modded up to 110% accuracy and/or 110% damage

But I'm less sure about engines, would it be unbalancing to let people mod the power output of engines?


As long as this remains as an item that has a random chance to loot and not something that can be produced at a camp. That would be the biggest gripe among the player base.

As long as it is available to any player, I don't see a problem at all with it. I also see the possibility that this could be an item you could buy with "chrome money".
Necrotech


Posted Jun 8, 2014, 5:54 pm
Personally, I'd rather see them caught in the wild

however..... Maybe a thing that Chrome buyers, can use to upgrade current kit.
Joel Autobaun


Posted Jun 8, 2014, 6:43 pm
*The X Man* said:
*sam* said:
One of the things I'm working on at the moment is slightly boosted/modded equipment.

-Chassis can be modded up to 110% chassis health
-Weapons can be modded up to 110% accuracy and/or 110% damage

But I'm less sure about engines, would it be unbalancing to let people mod the power output of engines?


As long as this remains as an item that has a random chance to loot and not something that can be produced at a camp. That would be the biggest gripe among the player base.

As long as it is available to any player, I don't see a problem at all with it. I also see the possibility that this could be an item you could buy with "chrome money".


Conversely a lootable only item might put some items as "obsolete" for camp production.  The production of v12s for instance helps pay for the massive investment of gangers and time and material to run a camp.  a v8 with a +10 would probably be equivalent to a v12.

I will say again Sam, I think you'd be playing with FIRE to make so many changes at once.  Let them trickle in.
*sam*


Posted Jun 8, 2014, 7:35 pm
Necrotech said:
I believe, with the exception of races, Engines would not be imbalaced.


Maybe the thing to do is disallow modded equipment in any EAA-rules events

XMan said:

I also see the possibility that this could be an item you could buy with "chrome money".


Yes, of course.. this is one of the key aspects of the free-to-play monetization. It needs to be taken in context:
- free players will be able to do a lot more than they can currently, so I expect lots of players won't bother with subscriptions. That is the intention. Monetization switches to Chrome purchases, to a greater or lesser extent.
- each subscription payment will come packaged with some Chrome
- players will be able to sell equipment to each other using Chrome rather than $ if they wish
Necrotech


Posted Jun 8, 2014, 8:00 pm
Personallly, Joel..

While not invalidating your point of view, getting the monetization in place is part of the long term goals.

Something bought RL currency should better, better than sometime produced for "free"

(see not RL money investiture)

I love the camps life and all, but this is part of the vision of things going forward.

Yes there will be power creep, true.... but people will have to pay for it, this time.. for real.

However excluding "Modded" equipment from EAA sanctioned events.. is a good balance.

Woe to COE II though.... lordy lordy..

*Rev. V*


Posted Jun 8, 2014, 9:55 pm
"But I'm less sure about engines, would it be unbalancing to let people mod the power output of engines?"

I don't think so.
But, it might be worth a thought to have it require a spec to do so, and only on X amount of vehicles per gang or per ganger with the spec if more than one gang member can have the spec

*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 8, 2014, 11:36 pm
I like the buffed equipment idea. Although I would like it if the boost was hidden until "Identified" similar to how you had to identify magic weapons in games like Bards Tale

With the ability to install and use the unidentified gear with a chance that it has a major flaw. Like an engine that begins to smoke then lights on fire during a scout because it appeared to be an exotic overpowered engine but was in reality flawed.

The Chrome bought items of course would of course not have this random possibility. Only the looted unknown/uninspected items.
*JeeTeeOh*


Posted Jun 10, 2014, 2:21 pm
Can we apply those mods to our Pedestrian Fire Extinguishers?

...Oh. Wait.
Juris


Posted Jun 10, 2014, 4:32 pm
*JeeTeeOh* said:
Can we apply those mods to our Pedestrian Fire Extinguishers?

...Oh. Wait.


I'd like to boost cycles
*Bastille*


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 2:46 am
*sam* said:
One of the things I'm working on at the moment is slightly boosted/modded equipment.

-Chassis can be modded up to 110% chassis health
-Weapons can be modded up to 110% accuracy and/or 110% damage

But I'm less sure about engines, would it be unbalancing to let people mod the power output of engines?


I dunno, Im all for more perma damage though, so that 100% items are actually rare.
Lord Foul


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 5:03 am
What I find funny and irritating about this engine mod conversation is that at present time engine tuning still does not work in the wild, but you'll be able to modify your engines to give them more power than a 500 mech can with all engine tuner specs. :rolleyes:
Lord Foul


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 5:26 am
Necrotech said:
I believe, with the exception of races, Engines would not be imbalaced.




December 2012 - Thread on engine mods
Necrotech said:
But engine mods, I have a hard time seeing the real balance in that.

I thought, that in it's own way the Engine Tuner specialisation was to accomodate for boosting engines and what not.


;)

Sam said:
Weapons can be modded up to 110% accuracy and/or 110% damage 


Don't forget the range mod(scopes), we'll need that one too when sniper is toned down. (I'm being sarcastic)


Maybe it's just me, but it's better to work with what you have now and make it better than to add new things that may break what we have now. I'm feeling more like Joel everyday when I see this stuff.
Grimm Sykes


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 6:58 am
LF, I thought this was about making money, not about making it work right. No, I am not being sarcastic
*sam*


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 8:54 am
*Bastille* said:
*sam* said:
One of the things I'm working on at the moment is slightly boosted/modded equipment.

-Chassis can be modded up to 110% chassis health
-Weapons can be modded up to 110% accuracy and/or 110% damage

But I'm less sure about engines, would it be unbalancing to let people mod the power output of engines?


I dunno, Im all for more perma damage though, so that 100% items are actually rare.



That's happening too
*sam*


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 8:58 am
Lord Foul said:

Maybe it's just me, but it's better to work with what you have now and make it better than to add new things that may break what we have now. I'm feeling more like Joel everyday when I see this stuff.


Grimm Sykes said:

LF, I thought this was about making money, not about making it work right. No, I am not being sarcastic


The point you may both have missed (similarly to Joel) is that this is part of a change of monetization. Severely limited freeplay plus a a fixed-price subscription model is considered out of date these days, and would be very likely to fail on Steam. The model is to let people play for free in an almost-unlimited way, and then to pay variable amounts for additional things they want. Stopping it from being 'pay to win' is paramount, of course.
Grimm Sykes


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 8:58 am
sorry, i was drunk/hungover
*Bastille*


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 10:30 am
*sam* said:
*Bastille* said:
*sam* said:
One of the things I'm working on at the moment is slightly boosted/modded equipment.

-Chassis can be modded up to 110% chassis health
-Weapons can be modded up to 110% accuracy and/or 110% damage

But I'm less sure about engines, would it be unbalancing to let people mod the power output of engines?


I dunno, Im all for more perma damage though, so that 100% items are actually rare.



That's happening too


Well ok then  :)
Necrotech


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 12:24 pm
Nice!
Bolt Thrower


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 1:47 pm
I am still of the mind that boosts should mimic specialisms.

For example: A gun with a sniper 1 mod would function like someone with a sniper 1 mod was firing it. If someone with a sniper 2 mod was using it, the gun would have no advantage.

This means you can pay for a short term gain, but it has limits. This also makes it somewhat easier to monetize.

Grimm Sykes


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 1:53 pm
Bolt Thrower said:
I am still of the mind that boosts should mimic specialisms.

For example:  A gun with a sniper 1 mod would function like someone with a sniper 1 mod was firing it.  If someone with a sniper 2 mod was using it, the gun would have no advantage.

This means you can pay for a short term gain, but it has limits.  This also makes it somewhat easier to monetize.



Are you saying, "who needs skill when you have chrome money?" Why buy a gatling gun when you can rapidshot mod a machine gun then?
*JeeTeeOh*


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 2:01 pm
Grimm Sykes said:

Are you saying, "who needs skill when you have chrome money?" Why buy a gatling gun when you can rapidshot mod a machine gun then?


Maybe you don't have the chromes. That, and rapidshot skill doesn't double up your shots with any measure of predictability until the higher levels. That, and GGs have an inherent gunner training advantage. There are several reasons, and they're pretty easy to spot if you look for 'em.
Bolt Thrower


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 2:33 pm
Grimm Sykes said:
Bolt Thrower said:
I am still of the mind that boosts should mimic specialisms.

For example:  A gun with a sniper 1 mod would function like someone with a sniper 1 mod was firing it.  If someone with a sniper 2 mod was using it, the gun would have no advantage.

This means you can pay for a short term gain, but it has limits.  This also makes it somewhat easier to monetize.



Are you saying, "who needs skill when you have chrome money?" Why buy a gatling gun when you can rapidshot mod a machine gun then?


Because it costs real money for, you know, the monetization.  It can be capped at whatever is deemed fair.  It only applies to the gun you buy it on, unlike the real specialization.  It can be taken away.  It can be superseded by a skilled ganger, unlike the current flat bonus idea which would be closer to p2w.
Joel Autobaun


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 5:47 pm
*sam* said:
Lord Foul said:

Maybe it's just me, but it's better to work with what you have now and make it better than to add new things that may break what we have now. I'm feeling more like Joel everyday when I see this stuff.


Grimm Sykes said:

LF, I thought this was about making money, not about making it work right. No, I am not being sarcastic


The point you may both have missed (similarly to Joel) is that this is part of a change of monetization. Severely limited freeplay plus a a fixed-price subscription model is considered out of date these days, and would be very likely to fail on Steam. The model is to let people play for free in an almost-unlimited way, and then to pay variable amounts for additional things they want. Stopping it from being 'pay to win' is paramount, of course.


I havent missed a thing.  Do not tie in the new money scheme with changes that affect play balance(which isnt even balanced yet!).  Mark my words this is a huge mistake.
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 11, 2014, 8:34 pm
Joel Autobaun said:
*sam* said:
Lord Foul said:

Maybe it's just me, but it's better to work with what you have now and make it better than to add new things that may break what we have now. I'm feeling more like Joel everyday when I see this stuff.


Grimm Sykes said:

LF, I thought this was about making money, not about making it work right. No, I am not being sarcastic


The point you may both have missed (similarly to Joel) is that this is part of a change of monetization. Severely limited freeplay plus a a fixed-price subscription model is considered out of date these days, and would be very likely to fail on Steam. The model is to let people play for free in an almost-unlimited way, and then to pay variable amounts for additional things they want. Stopping it from being 'pay to win' is paramount, of course.


I havent missed a thing.  Do not tie in the new money scheme with changes that affect play balance(which isnt even balanced yet!).  Mark my words this is a huge mistake.


i don't see the difference between making the game favour people who are cash rich (possible future) is any different from making it favour players who are time rich (present).

there is no such thing as a balanced multiplayer game... even chess favours people who are brain rich.
*Bastille*


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 12:48 am
yeah, which always puts me at disadvantage. I call every one else who plays, a cheater, as they exploit my stupidity.
Grimm Sykes


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 12:52 am
goat starer said:
i don't see the difference between making the game favour people who are cash rich (possible future) is any different from making it favour players who are time rich (present).


+1
don't let it go to your head
Skidmark


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 1:25 am
*sam* said:
*Bastille* said:


I dunno, Im all for more perma damage though, so that 100% items are actually rare.


That's happening too


I'm just asking for a little bit of clarification here.  Is this expansion of perma-damage only going to apply to components that get harvested off of loot vehicles?

Will it affect a car assembled in town using the town's Order New Vehicle function?  What about components acquired by the Buy/Sell Component function?

Will it affect a chassis built in a camp?  Or an engine?  Or any other camp-built components?
Lord Foul


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 5:12 am
goat starer said:
Joel Autobaun said:
*sam* said:
Lord Foul said:

Maybe it's just me, but it's better to work with what you have now and make it better than to add new things that may break what we have now. I'm feeling more like Joel everyday when I see this stuff.


Grimm Sykes said:

LF, I thought this was about making money, not about making it work right. No, I am not being sarcastic


The point you may both have missed (similarly to Joel) is that this is part of a change of monetization. Severely limited freeplay plus a a fixed-price subscription model is considered out of date these days, and would be very likely to fail on Steam. The model is to let people play for free in an almost-unlimited way, and then to pay variable amounts for additional things they want. Stopping it from being 'pay to win' is paramount, of course.


I havent missed a thing.  Do not tie in the new money scheme with changes that affect play balance(which isnt even balanced yet!).  Mark my words this is a huge mistake.


i don't see the difference between making the game favour people who are cash rich (possible future) is any different from making it favour players who are time rich (present).

there is no such thing as a balanced multiplayer game... even chess favours people who are brain rich.


I'm kinda surprised you'd be saying this. While you have a valid view, you can also combine the two so it favors those with time and money. Creating uber vets that will dominate the game far more than what we had. While there will always be balance issues, adding another layer only makes things worse in the long run.

This new layer in turn makes things even easier than they are now for the player in the game. You've made it quite clear you hate when Sam tries to make things easier in the game.

Lord Foul


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 5:37 am
*sam* said:
Lord Foul said:

Maybe it's just me, but it's better to work with what you have now and make it better than to add new things that may break what we have now. I'm feeling more like Joel everyday when I see this stuff.


Grimm Sykes said:

LF, I thought this was about making money, not about making it work right. No, I am not being sarcastic


The point you may both have missed (similarly to Joel) is that this is part of a change of monetization. Severely limited freeplay plus a a fixed-price subscription model is considered out of date these days, and would be very likely to fail on Steam. The model is to let people play for free in an almost-unlimited way, and then to pay variable amounts for additional things they want. Stopping it from being 'pay to win' is paramount, of course.



I think you may have missed my point from my first post above the one you quoted from.

I thought DW was supposed to be centered around the gangs/characters and how they grow, evolve, die and react in the harsh world of DW. I'm seeing focus being put on adding items that massively overshadow the core of DW, the characters and abilities that make these characters special and unique to each player.

I made a point about mechs, one of their abilities and how they currently interact (or don't) with the current game when compared to these "mods" that will be added.

This is not about a new subscription model, this is about what I thought the core game is about. You can add all kinds of goodies to a free to play system, but those items should be focused around the core part of the game, it's gangs and characters. These "mods" should not be better than the core part of the game, its characters.

Sure, allow a player to buy a "mod" that allows them to do what a 500 mech can do.

Don't allow a player to buy a "mod" that allows them to do something no character mech can do in the game no matter how high you can train them. Adding 10% engine mods severely blows away what a mech with engine tuner level 10 can do by design and current denial of use.

Follow?
Grimm Sykes


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 5:50 am
I believe what i was trying to point out, is that the core concept seems to be changing from gangs and players, to a new financial model.

Believe with my new found joy of taking money from casinos, I would have time and money.

I still see focus on pretending bugs I bring up, being viewed as non-existent. I think disaster looms if time is spent adding more things, that are already visibly exploitable, Instead of fixing whats already here and re balancing.
For whatever reason players have quit playing in the past, when they come back to fresh steam release to check it out, their main questions will likely be;
Have the balancing issues been sorted out?
Have the constant bugs and glitches been fixed?

Face it, people will come check it out, but if aged vets come and say, nope it's not quite fixed, how are new players going to view that?

maybe I'm just imagining things, or maybe this is a valid warning of what may be to come
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 6:48 am
Lord Foul said:
goat starer said:
Joel Autobaun said:
*sam* said:
Lord Foul said:

Maybe it's just me, but it's better to work with what you have now and make it better than to add new things that may break what we have now. I'm feeling more like Joel everyday when I see this stuff.


Grimm Sykes said:

LF, I thought this was about making money, not about making it work right. No, I am not being sarcastic


The point you may both have missed (similarly to Joel) is that this is part of a change of monetization. Severely limited freeplay plus a a fixed-price subscription model is considered out of date these days, and would be very likely to fail on Steam. The model is to let people play for free in an almost-unlimited way, and then to pay variable amounts for additional things they want. Stopping it from being 'pay to win' is paramount, of course.


I havent missed a thing.  Do not tie in the new money scheme with changes that affect play balance(which isnt even balanced yet!).  Mark my words this is a huge mistake.


i don't see the difference between making the game favour people who are cash rich (possible future) is any different from making it favour players who are time rich (present).

there is no such thing as a balanced multiplayer game... even chess favours people who are brain rich.


I'm kinda surprised you'd be saying this. While you have a valid view, you can also combine the two so it favors those with time and money. Creating uber vets that will dominate the game far more than what we had. While there will always be balance issues, adding another layer only makes things worse in the long run.

This new layer in turn makes things even easier than they are now for the player in the game. You've made it quite clear you hate when Sam tries to make things easier in the game.



I think both your posts above make a lot of sense. My personal view was always that you should be able to buy things that make the game prettier or remove some of the drag ..(to counteract the time rich thing). I was only trying to point out that getting very upset about one game inequality whilst being happy with others is odd.

In any case I am the wrong person to talk to about a monetization model. I like games that you buy and can then play forever... Failing that I like the subscription model... The current fad for in game purchases will never take much cash from me. I realise I am an outdated outlier. Any in game purchase (other than skin slots) would not make the game easier for me... As I probably won't be using it. I am concerned about Sam making the game easier... But only where it makes the game easier for me. I came up with ways to redress the effects even before scav... No scav does it pretty effectively. :D
*sam*


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 9:28 am
Skidmark said:
*sam* said:
*Bastille* said:


I dunno, Im all for more perma damage though, so that 100% items are actually rare.


That's happening too


I'm just asking for a little bit of clarification here.  Is this expansion of perma-damage only going to apply to components that get harvested off of loot vehicles?

Will it affect a car assembled in town using the town's Order New Vehicle function?  What about components acquired by the Buy/Sell Component function?

Will it affect a chassis built in a camp?  Or an engine?  Or any other camp-built components?



It won't affect any camp-created items or stuff bought from the NPC mechanic shop.

The changes will be: 
1. each 5% of 'normal' damage sustained in a combat will add 1% 'serious' damage (serious being the new name for 'perma')
2. Fixing items will no longer cause serious damage
3. NPCs will often spawn with damaged items
*sam*


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 9:32 am
Lord Foul said:

....
Follow?


Follow, yes.
Agree, no.

There will be plenty of ways of getting Chrome without paying for it.
For example, sell one of your fire engines to a player for Chrome.
*sam*


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 9:34 am
This is not, in my opinion, a hugely significant refocusing of the game. I think a few of you are assigning way too much significance to the effects it will have.
Necrotech


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 12:27 pm
*Sam*,

Just build your game and business as you see fit.

There will be naysayers and pundits regardless of what you do.

Do it, build it, and make it as successful as you can, utilizing your vision on of it. *STAY WITH YOUR VISION*

We can throw comments or suggestions or criticisms until the ends of time, However it is your time, investiture, and success on the line, not ours.

If we and "they" (new people) like the changes, then people will stay and pay, if not then you will adjust as needed.

Yes there are things I and other people may like to see, but those opinions are so varied, and then you take those to heart, then lose what *YOU* saw for this game.

Don't be dissuaded...

Examples of successful Indie Game Creators -

Tarn and Zach Adams

Chris Roberts (Early)

Sid Meier

As let's not forget the original Grand Maester of the indies... Richard Garriot

These people stuck with their vision and refined their craft.

People like Derek Smart, did not.
*Jagged Monkey*


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 1:24 pm
Well said amigo.
Racing Robbie


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 1:36 pm
+1 from me as well

Said it before and will say it again - It's Sam's world and he's been kind enough to let us all play in it

Keep up the great work Sir!!

B)
*sam*


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 4:34 pm
thanks guys :)
*Longo*


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 5:59 pm
Sam -
Can you filter all of the junk out of this thread and just present the good topics and thoughts for me please. Thanks! -Longo ;)
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 7:21 pm
"


















"


There you go longo... Filter applied ;)
*Bigspenner*


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 8:25 pm
Some of that sentiment makes sense but we are not lucky Sam lets us play, we pay very well for a product and as customers it is Sam's job to provide us with the product we want in return for our money.

Really its a team effort and Sam should be as grateful for our input as we should be for him seeking it.
love it as it is and the pay to win game wont be my cup of tea.



Groovelle


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 8:36 pm
Yea Sam, Necro is right. You can't pander to 20 powergamers. Because that's what you're doing if you weigh too much of what we want.

We all want different stuff. Me myself, I'll just keep subbed until I can make the Load Runners a roving gang of motorcycle bandits like they were initially s'posed to be. Some like Goat want a challenge. Others... who knows what they want. Point being, do what you want. I just watched a video about a developer hitting a wall and thinking he didn't know what to do anymore. After hearing a wellknown dev talk and knowing all his talking points, he finally realized the way forward was doing it his way, even when it was extreme as to his player's thoughts. This was the Face of Mankind dev.

Do your thing man, because really, wouldn't you rather win or fail based on what you want to do than pander and slightly win or slightly lose? And being on Steam with your own ideas could be a major win.
Jety


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 8:39 pm
Bigspenner said:
we pay very well for a product and as customers it is Sam's job to provide us with the product we want in return for our money.


No. Not even close. The customer is not always right. Sam owes us nothing. His only duty is to himself - to create the game he wants to create.

If he wants to make a game that makes lots of money, he'll do one set of things. If he wants a hardcore replica of a tabletop game from the 80's, then he'll do another set of things. If he wants to be wildly successful on Steam, then maybe he'll try yet some other things. Probably he wants to balance all of these goals.

But at the end of the day make no mistake, he's going to make the game he wants to make, and while I'm sure he appreciates player feedback and wants to build a game that we enjoy - we aren't 'entitled' to a damn thing.
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 8:56 pm
Bigspenner said:
Some of that sentiment makes sense but we are not lucky Sam lets us play, we pay very well for a product and as customers it is Sam's job to provide us with the product we want in return for our money.


That is not sams job. It your job to decide if you want to buy the game Sam had made. If you don't... You dont have to. Creative enterprises, especially small ones are not like flogging IT Big.

you can demand bugs get fixed but content is the creators.. you don't buy a book or a film and start demanding the author / director remakes it with different characters... or a different ending..
Grimm Sykes


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 9:28 pm
why is there like 6 or 8 or however many endings to blade runner? But yeah, that too sort of proves you point GS.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 12, 2014, 10:20 pm
Grimm Sykes said:
why is there like 6 or 8 or however many endings to blade runner? But yeah, that too sort of proves you point GS.


Because the Author wrote the book with one ending which had meaning and Hollywood decided it wouldn't sell and changed it. Then they realized they upset a lot of people and weren't making the money they expected so they made some alternate endings to offer their ending, plus an ending closer to the original (but since they changed most of the story it wasn't really much closer) and then some other endings to make it look like it wasn't bowing to pressure

Then some more to sell the DVD

Then more to sell theBlue Ray
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 12, 2014, 10:41 pm
In the end which would make Sam happier?

Have the 20 or so of us subbing up every year at $60 a head OR have 2000 to 3000 noobs paying maybe $25 to $35 a year on Chrome?

$1,200 USD vs $50,000 to $75,000 USD

or more conservatively 250 to 500 noobs at $20 ($5,000 to $10,000)

I'm betting both situations have their pluses and minuses. But in the end the growth of the player base and the added exposure of a larger venue would probably benefit US in getting things we want as well as make money and incentive for Sam to give us things we want.

There's a lot that I want

But moving forward into a new era is the first step IMO so I'm keeping my wants out of the conversation to keep it from being furthur muddied.

Plus I like boning people who spent real money on stuff. I want to break that ultra power engine with my noob ganger that I got for free-ish
musashi_san


Posted Jun 12, 2014, 10:57 pm
goat starer said:
Creative enterprises, especially small ones are not like flogging IT Big


depends how you define IT... but aside from the tangent, i think crispy your numbers are off. some people buy the smallest duration every time so it's the most $ possible, not all vets pay the yearly, and i think there's more than 20 of us subbing. note, too, that, for example, my time sink of the week "kingdom of loathing" typically has 500+ people currently playing at any given time (i.e. like 500 people in the lobby), and has like 10k active players. and that seems like just as much a niche game as this. think about that... lord foul made a good list of concerns early on that i hope sam is paying attention too, to do with scalability and the perils of a larger/wider audience.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 13, 2014, 2:36 am
Mush, you are no doubt correct about my numbers. But I was trying to illustrate the point that even if all of us quit DW and it was just a mass of noobs with money trying to pay to win, Sam would be financially in a better place to invest time into the game's development than as it stands now.

Not that we'd all quit. Most of us like to bluster and blow about things rather than give up. Which is probably why, despite our different opinions, we are still here.

That, and the lack of a competing Car Wars type game.
*Bastille*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 2:47 am
Groovelle said:
...Others... who knows what they want. Point being, do what you want...


I want chips? Can I have chips, with gravy and a pint of lager. Thanks. And an order for Mushi too for taking my punctuation skills to the next level.

And yeah, input from the player base aside, a game should stick to its guns and this one has many. Its great that we can ask for stuff here and put in, but I can't expect it I don't think. (Unless its chips)
musashi_san


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 2:55 am
*Bastille* said:
taking my punctuation skills to the next level


hey, what can i say, it's a style. i don't really believe in capital letters.  :p
Iron Wraith


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 6:27 am
Despite the plentiful evidence of their existence Mushashi ;)
*sam*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 12:01 pm
Bigspenner said:
...we are not lucky Sam lets us play, we pay very well for a product...


Just to point out, this is absolutely true. I don't feel any sense of entitlement here, I have always considered players to be customers first and foremost.
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 12:23 pm
*sam* said:
Bigspenner said:
...we are not lucky Sam lets us play, we pay very well for a product...


Just to point out, this is absolutely true. I don't feel any sense of entitlement here, I have always considered players to be customers first and foremost.


As indeed we are... But customers who can choose to play this game.. or others. Choosing this one gives us no right to change it unless we can convince you to do it. It's not a democracy. If it were this would be a shambles and you would never stop changing stuff.

*Bigspenner*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 2:41 pm
goat starer said:
*sam* said:
Bigspenner said:
...we are not lucky Sam lets us play, we pay very well for a product...


Just to point out, this is absolutely true. I don't feel any sense of entitlement here, I have always considered players to be customers first and foremost.


As indeed we are... But customers who can choose to play this game.. or others. Choosing this one gives us no right to change it unless we can convince you to do it. It's not a democracy. If it were this would be a shambles and you would never stop changing stuff.



Ok then Comrade Starer of the Yorkshire peasants revolt. (or the free people against hard work and enterprise) First, you chose one of two key sentences to quote in isolation despite the second part being intrinsically important to the statement. Second you are wrong, If Sam wasn't interested in earning from DW no one would be asked to pay and there would be loads of players who have otherwise chose not to stay still here. Third our choice to buy this product is based on Sam offering value to us as a customer, The size and scale of the business is irrelevant to that simple principle. And finally your post shows a clear lack of understanding basic commerce; customer feedback is almost always what drives product development whether that feedback is diminishing/increasing sales, suggestion boxes, mail bombs, poo in the owners letter box or massive gifts and donations.

In summery, no business provides a product no one wants, tells the customers take it or leave it and then refuses to change. Sam Provided a product he believed others would enjoy and turned it into a business, now he is trying to attract new customers while maximising the value of each customer. He doing this by asking his existing customers for their advice, in return he is offering value.

Despite your communist tendencies there is nothing despicably wrong with success or with understanding business and the supply chain.

Go for it Sam get rich by valuing your customers and providing a good product and service. No matter how odd that sounds to Red Goat! I like a good product and am happy to pay for your effort and the value you add, while in return I expect as a customer to be valued too.


musashi_san


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 3:25 pm
Bigspenner said:
sensible stuff


spot on.

Bigspenner said:
no business provides a product no one wants, tells the customers take it or leave it and then refuses to change


ummm, microsoft?  :p
*Bigspenner*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 4:01 pm
LOL
*sam*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 4:03 pm
Bigspenner said:
goat starer said:
*sam* said:
Bigspenner said:
...we are not lucky Sam lets us play, we pay very well for a product...


Just to point out, this is absolutely true. I don't feel any sense of entitlement here, I have always considered players to be customers first and foremost.


As indeed we are... But customers who can choose to play this game.. or others. Choosing this one gives us no right to change it unless we can convince you to do it. It's not a democracy. If it were this would be a shambles and you would never stop changing stuff.



..Comrade Starer..you chose one of two key sentences to quote in isolation despite the second part being intrinsically important to the statement.


Actually it was me that chose the one sentence to quote, goat was only quoting me. Sorry about that!  I picked the part of your post that I wanted to comment on, that's all  ;-)



*Bigspenner*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 4:20 pm
yes that's true, in effect Sam you set the West Yorkshire Communist Block on me by leaving out the balancing part of my rational, lucid and insightful point.

Naughty Developer!

Althgough also I was in reality quoting as much the earlier Goat point which was,

"Bigspenner said:
Some of that sentiment makes sense but we are not lucky Sam lets us play, we pay very well for a product and as customers it is Sam's job to provide us with the product we want in return for our money. "



That is not sams job. It your job to decide if you want to buy the game Sam had made. If you don't... You dont have to. Creative enterprises, especially small ones are not like flogging IT Big.

you can demand bugs get fixed but content is the creators.. you don't buy a book or a film and start demanding the author / director remakes it with different characters... or a different ending..
*The X Man*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 5:04 pm
Spenner and Goat..... How did you two ever agree to become SCL team mates?!? It is this kind of communication that almost allowed Juan to beat you last match. :rolleyes:


Anyways, Sam knows what he is doing and he will continue to have my support and yearly subscriptions regardless of changes made to DW.
*Boonwolf*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 5:26 pm
*The X Man* said:

Anyways, Sam knows what he is doing and he will continue to have my support and yearly subscriptions regardless of changes made to DW.



Pssst! fix lobby crashing and graphics errors!
*Bigspenner*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 7:22 pm
x lol
*K1500*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 8:22 pm
Bigspenner said:
...you can demand bugs get fixed but content is the creators.. you don't buy a book or a film and start demanding the author / director remakes it with different characters... or a different ending..


While I get your argument don't pull out statements like this which is clearly an example of false equivalence. Games are not books or movies - their properties, both in terms of usage and maintenance are significantly different from these other media forms.

I'm sure we can all think of a recent example where consumer (damn I hate that identity label) feedback prompted a producer to amend their product (ME3). I could launch into a diatribe about the death of the author but I wouldn't want to bore people :-)

[Aside from the small issue with your examples I have no issues on practical level with what you said]

K
Racing Robbie


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 8:22 pm
*The X Man* said:
Spenner and Goat..... How did you two ever agree to become SCL team mates?!? It is this kind of communication that almost allowed Juan to beat you last match.  :rolleyes:


Easy answer there - BEER!

B)
Joel Autobaun


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 8:38 pm
All I personally wanted to do was warn of the dangers of too many changes at once. Historically that has never worked out well for sam... time usewize and playerbase happinesswize

I hope the relaunch is wildly successful even if it is a game i no longer want to play.

I maintain nothing could possibly pay larger dividends at the current time as squishing some annoying bugs...plugging exploits and smoothing annoying #### in the interface.
*DoubleTap*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 9:28 pm
If we switch the names on the CC and ATG, would that be OK?
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 9:29 pm
*The X Man* said:
Spenner and Goat..... How did you two ever agree to become SCL team mates?!? It is this kind of communication that almost allowed Juan to beat you last match.  :rolleyes:




true it was close! I have the misfortune to live within 10 miles of Big... which means that i live within his gravity field (which is quite extensive)  :cyclops:


and K1500 there is no false equivalence. Books games and films are largely analagous... in fact most games are just as linear as a novel. this one is more akin to a choose your own adventure.

the basic principle is that creative exercises (art, music, film, literature, games) are the work of creative people and having a bunch of morons expect them to change everything o suit their own, severely limited, vision hardly helps.
Joel Autobaun


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 9:46 pm
goat starer said:

the basic principle is that creative exercises (art, music, film, literature, games) are the work of creative people and having a bunch of morons expect them to change everything o suit their own, severely limited, vision hardly helps.


Does that mean sam can get rid of scav now?
*K1500*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 10:37 pm
goat starer said:

and K1500 there is no false equivalence. Books games and films are largely analagous... in fact most games are just as linear as a novel. this one is more akin to a choose your own adventure.

the basic principle is that creative exercises (art, music, film, literature, games) are the work of creative people and having a bunch of morons expect them to change everything o suit their own, severely limited, vision hardly helps.


We'll have to agree to disagree I think. I don't want to derail this thread with a debate about the structural differences between different media forms (which is the bread and butter of what I've earned my living from for the last 5 years). The BASIC principles (in terms of production) are indeed similar but games, as a medium, are grounded in the concept of play from the audience which isn't present in many other media forms. Looking at games only from a production point of view misses the key feature of how the audience actually interacts with them - it's not just about production but also consumption.

K
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 11:00 pm
K1500 said:
(which is the bread and butter of what I've earned my living from for the last 5 years).


never a good argument... very weak old bean... do grow up
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 11:02 pm
Joel Autobaun said:
goat starer said:

the basic principle is that creative exercises (art, music, film, literature, games) are the work of creative people and having a bunch of morons expect them to change everything o suit their own, severely limited, vision hardly helps.


Does that mean sam can get rid of scav now?


sure.. i was playing scav without it being introduced... i played without cash for a year before it was. Lots of people have enjoyed it but it makes no odds to me..

that said... its is a DIFFERENT game.. not a change to the same one. Quite an important difference.

but you will notice that i did say "unless you can convince them that it is a good idea"

your usual selective reading and argumentative nonsense joel... do you really not have anything better to do? You dont have all the custom lap records yet.
*K1500*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 11:06 pm
goat starer said:
K1500 said:
(which is the bread and butter of what I've earned my living from for the last 5 years).


never a good argument... very weak old bean... do grow up


Wasn't an argument, it was context to simply identify where I was arguing from (i.e. not from a point of ignorance). Then again presenting an ad hominem attack instead of engaging with my points isn't exactly a strong argumentative strategy either is it Goat?

K
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 11:08 pm
K1500 said:
goat starer said:
K1500 said:
(which is the bread and butter of what I've earned my living from for the last 5 years).


never a good argument... very weak old bean... do grow up


Wasn't an argument, it was context to simply identify where I was arguing from (i.e. not from a point of ignorance). Then again presenting an ad hominem attack instead of engaging with my points isn't exactly a strong argumentative strategy either is it Goat?

K


statements of fact are never ad hominem... they may appear so but they are categorically not. metaphorical dick waggling is childish (especially when you can never have the faintest idea of the other peoples experience).

but sure.. lets agree to disagree

*K1500*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 11:12 pm
goat starer said:
statements of fact are never ad hominem... they may appear so but they are categorically not. metaphorical dick waggling is childish (especially when you can never have the faintest idea of the other peoples experience).

but sure.. lets agree to disagree



So saying "grow up" was a statement of fact? Nice hat tip for the limits of knowledge argument which we've butted heads over before though :-)

I agree, let's just disagree.

K
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 11:18 pm
K1500 said:
goat starer said:
statements of fact are never ad hominem... they may appear so but they are categorically not. metaphorical dick waggling is childish (especially when you can never have the faintest idea of the other peoples experience).

but sure.. lets agree to disagree



So saying "grow up" was a statement of fact? Nice hat tip for the limits of knowledge argument which we've butted heads over before though :-)

I agree, let's just disagree.

K


merely the mild rebuke of an elder statesman to a young upstart old bean  :cyclops:
*K1500*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 11:22 pm
goat starer said:

merely the mild rebuke of an elder statesman to a young upstart old bean  :cyclops:


Hehe - that is one of the things I do like about this place, I get to be called young!

K
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 13, 2014, 11:29 pm
K1500 said:
goat starer said:

merely the mild rebuke of an elder statesman to a young upstart old bean  :cyclops:


Hehe - that is one of the things I do like about this place, I get to be called young!

K


in this place... you probably are

Hula is 96... Longo fought in the great war... latte invented the internal combustion engine and Sam is god.. you dont get much older than god.












(I'm not saying god is a disappointment... I just thought he would be able to hold his beer a little better)
musashi_san


Posted Jun 14, 2014, 12:10 am
goat starer said:
I just thought he would be able to hold his beer a little better


sounds like a wager to me...
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 14, 2014, 12:13 am
musashi_san said:
goat starer said:
I just thought he would be able to hold his beer a little better


sounds like a wager to me...


he has already lost... there were witnesses
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 14, 2014, 1:00 am
And where did you derive said facts?  It sounded more like personal opinion to me. Identifying ones employment in a specific field is common practice to lend credibility to an argument. Which is why they use doctors as witnesses on medical cases of law rather than, say, bus drivers.

goat starer said:
K1500 said:
goat starer said:
K1500 said:
(which is the bread and butter of what I've earned my living from for the last 5 years).


never a good argument... very weak old bean... do grow up


Wasn't an argument, it was context to simply identify where I was arguing from (i.e. not from a point of ignorance). Then again presenting an ad hominem attack instead of engaging with my points isn't exactly a strong argumentative strategy either is it Goat?

K


statements of fact are never ad hominem... they may appear so but they are categorically not. metaphorical dick waggling is childish (especially when you can never have the faintest idea of the other peoples experience).

but sure.. lets agree to disagree

Lord Foul


Posted Jun 14, 2014, 4:55 am
goat starer said:
Joel Autobaun said:
goat starer said:

the basic principle is that creative exercises (art, music, film, literature, games) are the work of creative people and having a bunch of morons expect them to change everything o suit their own, severely limited, vision hardly helps.


Does that mean sam can get rid of scav now?


sure.. i was playing scav without it being introduced... i played without cash for a year before it was. Lots of people have enjoyed it but it makes no odds to me..

that said... its is a DIFFERENT game.. not a change to the same one. Quite an important difference.

but you will notice that i did say "unless you can convince them that it is a good idea"

your usual selective reading and argumentative nonsense joel... do you really not have anything better to do? You dont have all the custom lap records yet.


If DW does turn into a pay to win type of game, I'd actually like to see Scav stay on as a fall back for those that wish to try or stay hardcore so as to avoid the lure of buying your way to the top.
*Boonwolf*


Posted Jun 14, 2014, 2:48 pm
Lord Foul said:
goat starer said:
Joel Autobaun said:
goat starer said:

the basic principle is that creative exercises (art, music, film, literature, games) are the work of creative people and having a bunch of morons expect them to change everything o suit their own, severely limited, vision hardly helps.


Does that mean sam can get rid of scav now?


sure.. i was playing scav without it being introduced... i played without cash for a year before it was. Lots of people have enjoyed it but it makes no odds to me..

that said... its is a DIFFERENT game.. not a change to the same one. Quite an important difference.

but you will notice that i did say "unless you can convince them that it is a good idea"

your usual selective reading and argumentative nonsense joel... do you really not have anything better to do? You dont have all the custom lap records yet.


If DW does turn into a pay to win type of game, I'd actually like to see Scav stay on as a fall back for those that wish to try or stay hardcore so as to avoid the lure of buying your way to the top.

that's why many of us have living scav gangs.    And Joel it takes all of maybe 2 scousts a week to keep the gang going so don't feed to us that crap it  "It takes to much time... No one plays" this only deters people who have yet to play scavs to even join the darker-Wind.
Joel Autobaun


Posted Jun 14, 2014, 6:16 pm
Hit a nerve I guess. Play scav IDGAF
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 14, 2014, 8:35 pm
I thought you said you joined Scav to come hunt the carebears that were hiding from you in it? I'd venture to ask if maybe your decision that you didn't enjoy Scav was more related to the lack of viable PvP opponents? Scav is pure PvP Open. But the minimal player base makes it less likely to occur as well as the limiting factor of ammo shortages and the lack of any actual benefit for attacking a player.

Come back to Scav! We need more scavvers

Although it does take forever to train a scout capable of an intercept. And it takes a little more upkeep (for me) than just 2 scouts. I usually have to do 3 races too
Joel Autobaun


Posted Jun 14, 2014, 8:46 pm
I wish the whole came was scav or the whole game was normal.

IDGAF it doesn't matter, when like me, you just like to compete against players. I cannot do two gangs, I don't know why people don't believe me. Why would I lie about that? It split an already small player base and that's why I would rather it wasnt around, but I could be wrong... oh well not like anyone listens to me anyway. fk it.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 14, 2014, 9:05 pm
Joel Autobaun said:
I wish the whole came was scav or the whole game was normal.

IDGAF it doesn't matter, when like me, you just like to compete against players.  I cannot do two gangs, I don't know why people don't believe me.  Why would I lie about that?  It split an already small player base and that's why I would rather it wasnt around, but I could be wrong... oh well not like anyone listens to me anyway.  fk it.


Wasn't implying you were lying. But I agree the 2 gangs thing is a pain to manage. I wish more elements from Scav would be put into the normal game. Ammo shortages, permadamage, no custom builds NPC shop (or rather a severly limited one where you order a car built and then have to supply parts to build it pay for labor and the profit margin and not have parts available on the NPC market)

Stuff like that to make regular a bit more gritty and real but not to the extreme poverty level of Scav

I'm going to have to put this all down on paper and submit my suggestions wish list to Sam

Because one thing new players want to see is regular content injections or a highly polished game (or at least see it get polished). We aren't very polished. Like I've always said:  DW feels like the tactical battle modual of a much larger game that hasn't materialized yet
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 14, 2014, 9:41 pm

Generally I think i agree with you entirely. Scav was an experiment that has shown that a game can be created with no currency.. something lots of games designers (sam included) don't really believe. But for most people change is very scary and the right thing to do would be to introduce the best bits into the main game.

However this bit:

StCrispin said:


Stuff like that to make regular a bit more gritty and real but not to the extreme poverty level of Scav


is just not true... i don't play much but  have ammo for my car cannon and atgs... no shortage of water, food.. i drive buzzers and trash trucks but never have a problem with fuel. There is really no poverty.. even with a minute player base i can always trade for anything i need.

its tough in SS... for a few weeks. It would be easier if there was a player base as experienced players would trade common ammo for car parts, scrap, tyres and water / food If anything scav is really not harsh enough.
*Brunwulf*


Posted Jun 14, 2014, 11:04 pm
I totally agree.

SCAV as a concept is spot-on.
The vision of a post apocalyptic world with no currency other than poverty stricken gangs trading battered old engines for a few clips of hard to come by ammo IS what DW should have been all about- not wealthy gangs cruising around in Laser Ambulances!

That's just my opinion of course, I love SCAV, but it has completely failed due to lack of interest from established players- which is a shame I think.

Grimm Sykes


Posted Jun 15, 2014, 4:14 am
LMFAO, I just looked up scav in the urban dictionary and it makes sense now why a certain player prefers to play it.

scav
(proper) noun; pejorative, informal.

The act of making absolutely no sense in one's arguments.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Scav
Iron Wraith


Posted Jun 15, 2014, 3:49 pm
Scav as a concept works for some. I too find laser cars a bit silly, but each to their own.

The trouble with Scav was that it was perceived to be too much like hard work (whether that was true or not). Whilst the hard-core players out there may find it hard to believe, sometimes the comittment required for even basic DW can be onerous if your play hours are limited.

I have been playing a few years now on and off and I still haven't managed to get a ganger skilled above 100 (though I have acquired a few cast-offs from other gangs). Even when I was subscribed, I seemed to be getting only a couple of skill points per week through training. The answer seemed to require sending my gangers on 2-3 hour joint scouts. With an hour or two max per evening (and not every evening) that just wasn't practical.

Add in a reliance on player interaction for simple survival and it becomes a bit unappealing. I already have to negotiate with people I don't really like at work, I don't want that level of hassle in my all too limited leisure-time too.
Bolt Thrower


Posted Jun 15, 2014, 7:29 pm
Iron Wraith said:
Scav as a concept works for some.  I too find laser cars a bit silly, but each to their own.

The trouble with Scav was that it was perceived to be too much like hard work (whether that was true or not).  Whilst the hard-core players out there may find it hard to believe, sometimes the comittment required for even basic DW can be onerous if your play hours are limited.

I have been playing a few years now on and off and I still haven't managed to get a ganger skilled above 100 (though I have acquired a few cast-offs from other gangs).  Even when I was subscribed, I seemed to be getting only a couple of skill points per week through training.  The answer seemed to require sending my gangers on 2-3 hour joint scouts. With an hour or two max per evening (and not every evening) that just wasn't practical.

Add in a reliance on player interaction for simple survival and it becomes a bit unappealing.  I already have to negotiate with people I don't really like at work, I don't want that level of hassle in my all too limited leisure-time too.


I generally feel like this, which is one of the reasons I spent years avoiding MMOs.  To start this game, I did mostly travel and courier runs along with town events.  It allowed me to see maps, learn to drive and occasionally shoot somebody and possibly loot a vehicle that I would promptly use as a roadblock on the next encounter.  For me that is fun and relaxing.  I didn't need other people and it pays gang upkeep.  Plus getting to other town tracks minimizes the players who invade your events.  There are people who are fun to scout or race with.  Takes time to figure who they are.
*SmokeyKilla*


Posted Jun 15, 2014, 7:31 pm

I agree the time it takes to get a ganger up to 2 specs {100 skill} is not proportional to the permadeath {the risk of him dying}.

It takes approx 40-60 scouts in SS to get a ganger from skill level 20 to 100 and it is extremely hard for a noob to scout by himself unless he a has a couple of 100+ gangers and a decent scout.

I believe this is the biggest drawback for new players. When they realise it takes months of real time to get decent gangers they move on to games which are not such a slog.

Town events such as DR and combat can be deadly to gangers and this is why not many people play them., the skill gain is simply not worth the risk.

I believe some of the dangerous town events, scouts and travels need to have the skill gains at least doubled, this will keep new players interested and also promote more PVP and people playing town events.

Its great that gangers can be killed but when it takes 6+ weeks real time to train a ganger back up to 100 skill for an average player it starts to become a real slog.....player loses interest......doesnt re sub and moves on........

*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 15, 2014, 9:46 pm
When I first started I lost my gang at least twice over before a vet gaveme pointers like "use a 50+ Scout" and how to estimate number of enemy based on my squad CR and to have at least 1 specced gunner per squad if it was 3 or fewer cars (and never roll just 1 car due to the minimum encounter size)

Generally I found that I can scout very successfully in SS with a 39 scout One 50+ sniper 1 and 4 new hires in 3 Biter class cars (MMG and a 20 space secondary like GG or MML or MG etc... In a sunny or pho or similar car). Now I just take whoever I have but that was the minimum safe team during my first years experience.

As such is the case it would be a nice feature to have a "rent a mentor" or something where a player could fork out pay and get a NPC crew with a 50 scout and a 50 sniper. Or even one guy with 50 scout and 50 gunner and snp1. Make it fairly expensive like maybe 5 times the weekly pay of a normal ganger of that skill ($1000?) and if the die you have to pay a death benefit of 5 years income (12 paychecks per "year" at I think $200 a pop would be $12k incentive not to get him killed. Or maybe that's a bit steep of a penalty but u get the idea)

That would help new players get over that hurdle till they had their own skilled crews.

In Pirates of the Burning Sea you could "commission" allies to help you do quests as an NPC party member through the expenditure of PotBS points which you got from converting Burning Sea "Notes" into points to "spend" on content items and stuff (for us it's Chrome but that was their "real money" micro trans stuff)

We could have the same. Maybe a Mercenary for a week of a "rent a mentor" for a day. Or a single scout. Maybe call them a For Hire Wilderness Guide?
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 8:40 am
Iron Wraith said:
Scav as a concept works for some.  I too find laser cars a bit silly, but each to their own.

The trouble with Scav was that it was perceived to be too much like hard work (whether that was true or not).


the trouble with it was that most people had an established gang already. For it to really work it would have to be the model that a bunch of new players start with. I had always hoped that Sam might adopt it for a DW2 game... but that looks unlikely as DW2 does not have the same wildeness model. It would have made for a genuinely unique model and forced more cooperation and trading on players.
*SmokeyKilla*


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 10:37 am
scav or normal I really think new players need say 5 random characters with a skill level of 50+ or maybe an option to spend chromes to get a random pack of 5 gangers with higher skill level.

Hell i would buy them now :cyclops:
*sam*


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 10:46 am
SmokeyKilla said:
scav or normal I really think new players need say 5 random characters with a skill level of 50+ or maybe an option to spend chromes to get a random pack of 5 gangers with higher skill level.

Hell i would buy them now  :cyclops:



These are both good ideas.
*The X Man*


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 5:33 pm
*sam* said:
SmokeyKilla said:
scav or normal I really think new players need say 5 random characters with a skill level of 50+ or maybe an option to spend chromes to get a random pack of 5 gangers with higher skill level.

Hell i would buy them now  :cyclops:



These are both good ideas.


I agree with that. The group of gangers a new player hires should have better than average starting skills. Like smokey recommended with a start pack.

Maybe there could be multiple starter packs with different types available. But just these 5 only, should have skills that start out higher than normal. Maybe their main skill starts at 40? This is something that could allow them to spec faster so the player can see the performance in their skill change while keeping their guys alive in the process.

Now, this starting skill bump should not mean their ganger caps out 40 points higher than normal, they just get characters that got some pre-training in advance.

1) Gunner Pack - 2 Gunnery, 2 Large Gunnery, 1 Hand Gunner

2) Scouting Pack - 2 Scouts, 2 Gunnery, 1 First Aid

3) Racer Pack - 2 Drivers, 1 Scout, 2 Gunnery

Just some examples of variety. Those could also be the basic starter packs. Maybe a pack bought with Chrome could include 1 ganger with a spec and starting skill of 50. Maybe a Deluxe Pack could have 3 with specs and 50 starting skills. Then the Sam Pack where all characters have a spec.

Now, this is not a pay-to-win item. This would be a pack of gangers for new players to help them out. Their gangers would still have the random cap possibilities. So this would not give their characters any chance to get 50 points higher than normal and get a unbalanced advantage.

Anything that can make the game more fun and a little less work to retain new players should always be available.
Juris


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 5:54 pm
How about a better tutorial for new players? That's the biggest problem imo

Sure we've got that basic arena tutorial, which is pretty good, but it tells you nothing about how to manage your gang or do wilderness scouts (or even how to initiate a scout).
*The X Man*


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 6:15 pm
Juris said:
How about a better tutorial for new players?  That's the biggest problem imo

Sure we've got that basic arena tutorial, which is pretty good, but it tells you nothing about how to manage your gang or do wilderness scouts (or even how to initiate a scout).


That is something that is needed as well. There is another player that is currently working on video tutorials pertaining to specific game functions. I have viewed them and they are very good and filled with info beneficial to a new player.
*K1500*


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 7:09 pm
*The X Man* said:
That is something that is needed as well. There is another player that is currently working on video tutorials pertaining to specific game functions. I have viewed them and they are very good and filled with info beneficial to a new player.


Yeah that would be me. I've been playing around with the free version of Fraps. I have been planning on doing a series (racing tactics, scouting, death rallys, managing your gang, setting up vent, etc etc) but have only done one informative one so far.

Darkwind: War on Wheels - An Introduction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxqN6bE72M8

Also captured some of a Morgan Defence a while ago.

Darkwind: War On Wheels (Morgan Defence PT1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKHkklFyC9E
There's no part 2 - I lost the rest of the footage and this one is far more clumsy than the introduction (it was my first try with Fraps)

I've been a bit busy recently with job applications and freelance stuff but eventually I'd like to set up some events with a larger number of players as footage. I'll chuck a post up (and PM's) when I get around to it.

Any feedback on these would be appreciated.

K
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 7:14 pm
I'm sure people would buy these. But I think they would be missing out on the best bit of the game.
Bolt Thrower


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 7:30 pm
It is a new breed of gamer Goat:  ADHD and instant gratification culture.  Struggling through the beginning is not for most of them.

goat starer said:
I'm sure people would buy these. But I think they would be missing out on the best bit of the game.
*Boonwolf*


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 7:33 pm
goat starer said:
I'm sure people would buy these. But I think they would be missing out on the best bit of the game.

  But Sam wouldn't be missing out on the best part of people's wallets ;)

  Like the video K missed out on the best part the death of crispy's peds lol.
*The X Man*


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 7:56 pm
goat starer said:
I'm sure people would buy these. But I think they would be missing out on the best bit of the game.


The beginning of your gang and its development is like first impressions, you only get  one. Without experiencing that aspect of the game, some of the appreciation and gratifying factors will never be a part of the players knowledge and growth.

But this is being discussed to make new player retention better than it is now. Anything that can help the new wave of players maintain interest and desire to play will benefit everyone.

Since the existing player base is getting smaller, that means less help is available to new players. So if new players are somewhat forced to learn on their own, the game should be a little easier for them.

Keep in mind that most of the current players had other vets they could turn to for help or advice. Anyone joining now does not have that luxury and they learn the ropes from the forums and solo mode.

The social aspects of this game is what has kept a tight player base among current subscribers. This also needs to continue with all new players to keep the DW community stable which will lead to further growth in subscribers.
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 16, 2014, 8:17 pm
Yeah... I get it... I'm just really old :)
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 16, 2014, 9:55 pm
*sam* said:
SmokeyKilla said:
scav or normal I really think new players need say 5 random characters with a skill level of 50+ or maybe an option to spend chromes to get a random pack of 5 gangers with higher skill level.

Hell i would buy them now  :cyclops:



These are both good ideas.


LOL

This is what I posted above!  I guess my post was too wordy to get noticed.

(mine included justification for such an offering as well as comparison to a game that did similar)
*Brunwulf*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 1:10 am
K1500 said:
*The X Man* said:
That is something that is needed as well. There is another player that is currently working on video tutorials pertaining to specific game functions. I have viewed them and they are very good and filled with info beneficial to a new player.


Yeah that would be me. I've been playing around with the free version of Fraps. I have been planning on doing a series (racing tactics, scouting, death rallys, managing your gang, setting up vent, etc etc) but have only done one informative one so far.

Darkwind: War on Wheels - An Introduction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxqN6bE72M8

Also captured some of a Morgan Defence a while ago.

Darkwind: War On Wheels (Morgan Defence PT1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKHkklFyC9E
There's no part 2 - I lost the rest of the footage and this one is far more clumsy than the introduction (it was my first try with Fraps)

I've been a bit busy recently with job applications and freelance stuff but eventually I'd like to set up some events with a larger number of players as footage. I'll chuck a post up (and PM's) when I get around to it.

Any feedback on these would be appreciated.

K


I gotta comment and say - good job K1500

And well done on getting Jason Donovan to do the voice over!

(sorry- couldn't resist that one)

Seriously- any player doing stuff in their own time for the DW community gets a BIG thumbs up from me. If there is a sudden influx of new players, all vets should make an effort to help/support/ any noobs.
I am certainly willing to use some $ to set up some faster pussycat style events for instance, or help out anyone else who wants to try?
*Boonwolf*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 1:53 am
I should have enuff lorrys for something fun! Maybe a road trip?
*K1500*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 9:08 am
Brunwulf said:
I gotta comment and say - good job K1500

And well done on getting Jason Donovan to do the voice over!

(sorry- couldn't resist that one)


Thanks man - so now I've been compared to Jason Donovan and Bob Ross (who I had to google); with this record I may have to reconsider my narrating style :-)

But seriously I just thought that these types of video could be both useful for new players and for those who wanted to get an overview of what's involved in the game. There's no better tutorial for the game than the help of the community - I had numerous people help me out when I started (both in terms of advice, shepherding and gear) and it make all the difference to both understanding the game and enjoying it.

K
*Bigspenner*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 9:30 am
*The X Man* said:
goat starer said:
I'm sure people would buy these. But I think they would be missing out on the best bit of the game.


The beginning of your gang and its development is like first impressions, you only get  one. Without experiencing that aspect of the game, some of the appreciation and gratifying factors will never be a part of the players knowledge and growth.

But this is being discussed to make new player retention better than it is now. Anything that can help the new wave of players maintain interest and desire to play will benefit everyone.

Since the existing player base is getting smaller, that means less help is available to new players. So if new players are somewhat forced to learn on their own, the game should be a little easier for them.

Keep in mind that most of the current players had other vets they could turn to for help or advice. Anyone joining now does not have that luxury and they learn the ropes from the forums and solo mode.

The social aspects of this game is what has kept a tight player base among current subscribers. This also needs to continue with all new players to keep the DW community stable which will lead to further growth in subscribers.



I can totally vouch for this, I first tried Darkwind many years ago and was beffudled to say the least I tinkered for an hour or so, killed everyone and gave up in disgust.

Several years later after rereading my archive of emails from Jimmy I gave it another try and was very quickly hooked, it was player help that saved me as the instruction are not easy to follow. I am aware they have improved much since I first joined but even to this day I keep discovering things I didn't know about the game that the  instructions are unclear for.

Actually the first bit of lacking of clarity is in finding the instructions.

Ideally what you need is a couple of short paragraphs on how to use the game instructions. something that tells the new user where the instructions are, how to use the wikki and the tutorial and videos etc. If this was a big button somewhere that stood out to new users I think they would spend less time confused. My guess is you lose new players when they cant work out what to do. It certainly frightened me off.
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 9:41 am
this is true... i did exactly what you did when i first started... joined... got bamboozled and disappeared for a few months. Hula persuaded me to rejoin.

Before new players arrive we need an overhaul of the getting started guidelines and an overhaul of the marshal system.

*Bastille*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 12:10 pm
Great vids K

Bigspenner said:
...

Ideally what you need is a couple of short paragraphs on how to use the game instructions. something that tells the new user where the instructions are, how to use the wikki and the tutorial and videos etc. If this was a big button somewhere that stood out to new users I think they would spend less time confused. My guess is you lose new players when they cant work out what to do. It certainly frightened me off.


I remember receiving some narrative style introduction emails from Dexter and Jake when I first started, I found these very informative and helped me understand the split interface approach of DW. They also helped greatly with immersion. Other players stated that due to email filters etc they did not receive the emails or just missed them. To have these as part of the first few steps to creating your gang page, popup fields within the web client or main game client (similar to version update info) might be useful.
*Rev. V*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 1:03 pm
"and an overhaul of the marshal system. "

We DO need more power.....
*DoubleTap*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 2:09 pm
*Rev. V* said:
"and an overhaul of the marshal system. "

We DO need more power.....


And less accountability! Woohoo!
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 2:23 pm
*DoubleTap* said:
*Rev. V* said:
"and an overhaul of the marshal system. "

We DO need more power.....


And less accountability! Woohoo!


im not sure this is what i meant  :thinking:
*sam*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 2:57 pm
*DoubleTap* said:
*Rev. V* said:
"and an overhaul of the marshal system. "

We DO need more power.....


And less accountability! Woohoo!



LOL
*sam*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 2:58 pm
K1500 said:
*The X Man* said:
That is something that is needed as well. There is another player that is currently working on video tutorials pertaining to specific game functions. I have viewed them and they are very good and filled with info beneficial to a new player.


Yeah that would be me. I've been playing around with the free version of Fraps. I have been planning on doing a series (racing tactics, scouting, death rallys, managing your gang, setting up vent, etc etc) but have only done one informative one so far.

Darkwind: War on Wheels - An Introduction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxqN6bE72M8

Also captured some of a Morgan Defence a while ago.

Darkwind: War On Wheels (Morgan Defence PT1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKHkklFyC9E
There's no part 2 - I lost the rest of the footage and this one is far more clumsy than the introduction (it was my first try with Fraps)

I've been a bit busy recently with job applications and freelance stuff but eventually I'd like to set up some events with a larger number of players as footage. I'll chuck a post up (and PM's) when I get around to it.

Any feedback on these would be appreciated.

K




That intro is great.. but I'm just in the middle of overhauling the web interface, followed by the lobby interface!  :(
Grimm Sykes


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 2:59 pm
Juris said:
How about a better tutorial for new players?  That's the biggest problem imo

Sure we've got that basic arena tutorial, which is pretty good, but it tells you nothing about how to manage your gang or do wilderness scouts (or even how to initiate a scout).


And it's still broken as par my bug report where Sam said it was fixed, but it is not.
*sam*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:01 pm
Bigspenner said:
Actually the first bit of lacking of clarity is in finding the instructions.

Ideally what you need is a couple of short paragraphs on how to use the game instructions. something that tells the new user where the instructions are, how to use the wikki and the tutorial and videos etc. If this was a big button somewhere that stood out to new users I think they would spend less time confused. My guess is you lose new players when they cant work out what to do. It certainly frightened me off.


This is good advice.
I'm already repositioning the existing help and info pages so that they're more prominent in the new website; however ideally this stuff would be in the lobby first and foremost. I'll take a look at integrating these files in there too.
*sam*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:02 pm
Grimm Sykes said:
Juris said:
How about a better tutorial for new players?  That's the biggest problem imo

Sure we've got that basic arena tutorial, which is pretty good, but it tells you nothing about how to manage your gang or do wilderness scouts (or even how to initiate a scout).


And it's still broken as par my bug report where Sam said it was fixed, but it is not.



I never said it was fixed, I said it had been noted for fixing.
Grimm Sykes


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:09 pm
*sam* said:
Grimm Sykes said:
Juris said:
How about a better tutorial for new players?  That's the biggest problem imo

Sure we've got that basic arena tutorial, which is pretty good, but it tells you nothing about how to manage your gang or do wilderness scouts (or even how to initiate a scout).


And it's still broken as par my bug report where Sam said it was fixed, but it is not.



I never said it was fixed, I said it had been noted for fixing.


I'm sorry, when you said "got it" I thought you meant you got it fixed.
*sam* said:
got it, thanks for the info..
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:30 pm
Grimm Sykes said:
*sam* said:
Grimm Sykes said:
Juris said:
How about a better tutorial for new players?  That's the biggest problem imo

Sure we've got that basic arena tutorial, which is pretty good, but it tells you nothing about how to manage your gang or do wilderness scouts (or even how to initiate a scout).


And it's still broken as par my bug report where Sam said it was fixed, but it is not.



I never said it was fixed, I said it had been noted for fixing.


I'm sorry, when you said "got it" I thought you meant you got it fixed.
*sam* said:
got it, thanks for the info..


it never means that. "I get it"... shortened to "got it" in this instance means I understand.
Fifth


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 6:06 pm
This is certainly a minor thing compared to changes in the engine, but while the Gazette is great for posting individual pieces, it's kinda difficult to catch up on serial fiction or know how and where it's posted. Brooke's Tale is broken into several chunks in the Gazette, for example. And the Gazette has been pretty hard to work wth as a contributor.
What I suggest is overhauling the Gazette with some kind of index system, maybe in Wordpress or something, so it's easier to find different fanfiction series.
Here is my friend's online serial fiction, that I think could be one possible template. In the meantime, I'd say longer works could be put on Archive Of Our Own or Fanfiction.net, though I don't know much about either platform, and a thread created to link the start of different fanfiction bits, whether finished or unfinished.
*K1500*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 6:53 pm
*sam* said:
That intro is great.. but I'm just in the middle of overhauling the web interface, followed by the lobby interface!  :(


That's okay *Sam* - it was partially an experiment to see what I could produce anyway. When the flash new web and lobby interface get rolled out I can redo it. Plus it can stand as a demonstration of how things used to be and all the wonderful improvements that you've made! :-)

K
*Brunwulf*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 7:49 pm
Bigspenner said:
*The X Man* said:
goat starer said:
I'm sure people would buy these. But I think they would be missing out on the best bit of the game.


The beginning of your gang and its development is like first impressions, you only get  one. Without experiencing that aspect of the game, some of the appreciation and gratifying factors will never be a part of the players knowledge and growth.

But this is being discussed to make new player retention better than it is now. Anything that can help the new wave of players maintain interest and desire to play will benefit everyone.

Since the existing player base is getting smaller, that means less help is available to new players. So if new players are somewhat forced to learn on their own, the game should be a little easier for them.

Keep in mind that most of the current players had other vets they could turn to for help or advice. Anyone joining now does not have that luxury and they learn the ropes from the forums and solo mode.

The social aspects of this game is what has kept a tight player base among current subscribers. This also needs to continue with all new players to keep the DW community stable which will lead to further growth in subscribers.



I can totally vouch for this, I first tried Darkwind many years ago and was beffudled to say the least I tinkered for an hour or so, killed everyone and gave up in disgust.

Several years later after rereading my archive of emails from Jimmy I gave it another try and was very quickly hooked, it was player help that saved me as the instruction are not easy to follow. I am aware they have improved much since I first joined but even to this day I keep discovering things I didn't know about the game that the  instructions are unclear for.

Actually the first bit of lacking of clarity is in finding the instructions.

Ideally what you need is a couple of short paragraphs on how to use the game instructions. something that tells the new user where the instructions are, how to use the wikki and the tutorial and videos etc. If this was a big button somewhere that stood out to new users I think they would spend less time confused. My guess is you lose new players when they cant work out what to do. It certainly frightened me off.


Same here!

On my first day on DW, I didn't have a clue what I was doing. I think it was Rogue traders and Bastille who talked me through my baby steps- without their help I may have given up- not sure- but I know that any new players need some more help that the current totorial!
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 17, 2014, 9:23 pm
goat starer said:
Grimm Sykes said:
*sam* said:
Grimm Sykes said:
Juris said:
How about a better tutorial for new players?  That's the biggest problem imo

Sure we've got that basic arena tutorial, which is pretty good, but it tells you nothing about how to manage your gang or do wilderness scouts (or even how to initiate a scout).


And it's still broken as par my bug report where Sam said it was fixed, but it is not.



I never said it was fixed, I said it had been noted for fixing.


I'm sorry, when you said "got it" I thought you meant you got it fixed.
*sam* said:
got it, thanks for the info..


it never means that. "I get it"... shortened to "got it" in this instance means I understand.


Again arguing definitions and semantics rather than something useful?

"Got it" as in (I) "got it" (taken care of) can be interpreted into the phrase just as easily as (I) "Got it" (in the list of bugs to be fixed).  or it could even mean "I Understand" if the explanation seemed murkey and he wanted to indicate he understood the problem.  I got so tired of forum attacks based on semantics, definitions, or supposed intelectual superiority (Since everyone knows that makes me the best player here!  as I am always right!)  LOL
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 9:31 pm
StCrispin said:
goat starer said:
Grimm Sykes said:
*sam* said:
Grimm Sykes said:
Juris said:
How about a better tutorial for new players?  That's the biggest problem imo

Sure we've got that basic arena tutorial, which is pretty good, but it tells you nothing about how to manage your gang or do wilderness scouts (or even how to initiate a scout).


And it's still broken as par my bug report where Sam said it was fixed, but it is not.



I never said it was fixed, I said it had been noted for fixing.


I'm sorry, when you said "got it" I thought you meant you got it fixed.
*sam* said:
got it, thanks for the info..


it never means that. "I get it"... shortened to "got it" in this instance means I understand.


Again arguing definitions and semantics rather than something useful?

"Got it" as in (I) "got it" (taken care of) can be interpreted into the phrase just as easily as (I) "Got it" (in the list of bugs to be fixed).  or it could even mean "I Understand" if the explanation seemed murkey and he wanted to indicate he understood the problem.  I got so tired of forum attacks based on semantics, definitions, or supposed intelectual superiority (Since everyone knows that makes me the best player here!  as I am always right!)  LOL


'got it' means got the point.. ordinary usage. You are arguing semantics. Now stop being an argumentative sod and learn how to spell.

My argument is not semantic. It is simply that continually barracking the developer and willfully misunderstanding things to do so is really really ####ing boring.
Fifth


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 10:55 pm
Crispin, Goat, may I get you two to step back for a minute? Is it possible you two come from two different regions, perhaps with two different dialect usages for the phrase "got it"? This is a thing that happens to human beings who speak the same language sometimes, and perhaps BOTH OF YOU SHOULD GROW UP AND GET BACK ONTO A POINT THAT MATTERS.
*deep breath*
This is why I'm not on the forums much.
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 17, 2014, 11:04 pm
Fifth said:
Crispin, Goat, may I get you two to step back for a minute? Is it possible you two come from two different regions, perhaps with two different dialect usages for the phrase "got it"? This is a thing that happens to human beings who speak the same language sometimes, and perhaps BOTH OF YOU SHOULD GROW UP AND GET BACK ONTO A POINT THAT MATTERS.
*deep breath*
This is why I'm not on the forums much.


i can see how posts like that justify telling other people to grow up  :rolleyes:

just adding to the constant whining drone of complaints. Last time I saw all of you have played this game for years.. you must enjoy it.... so just stop whingeing all the time. Bugs get fixed if they matter... maybe not as quickly as some of you would like but frankly i don't see you leaving so it cant matter that much can it  :thinking:

Fifth


Posted Jun 18, 2014, 12:41 am
Another change I'd like to suggest: making NPC Traders act more like convoys. The "flocking" behavior was a good start, and it would be interesting to see an NPC convoy designed and acting like a player's travel squad.
For example a small squad in SS might be 1 Trader Van and 2 Trade Runners, and absent any player behavior they'd run together along the "road" in whatever map they were on. If a car became severely damaged they'd leave it behind, prompting the possibility of a player cutting a handful of cargo vehicles and escorts out of a larger convoy and letting the rest escape. This way the combats with NPC traders are more dynamic and not just a standard vs-NPC battle with unarmed cargo vehicles.
A larger combat might have Trader Lorry, a couple Vans and Pickups, and mostly rear-gunned escorts. The escorts would drive a little slower in the first few turns to let the cargoes separate a bit, and then spray fire back at whatever's the closest target. Though this would probably get kind of odd in cramped maps like Gates of Somerset or Chaos Canyon, I think it's potentially workable.
And something that's running away and shooting requires a different strategy than the AI horde that's charging into your guns. Weapons like the Napalm Gun and the Oil Jet/FOJ acquire whole new uses when you're trying to stop a large group of NPCs from getting away.
This would require a bunch more NPC vehicles, to make escorts more oriented toward their sides and rear, but for several, I imagine we could take the Poltergeist, Sir Rocket, Even Enforcer, and Freelance, reverse the front and back armor values, and move the front weapons to the back. Give them an AI like the Trade Runner and they'd be pretty fearsome escorts for a convoy that's more "mobile multipart fortress" than "here's our stuff, take it."
Juris


Posted Jun 18, 2014, 12:48 am
Agree with 5th about Traders but the AI is too dumb to run away in any coherent fashion. Likely they'd just scatter all over the map (although that would be smarter than what they do now)
Fifth


Posted Jun 18, 2014, 1:03 am
Juris said:
Agree with 5th about Traders but the AI is too dumb to run away in any coherent fashion.  Likely they'd just scatter all over the map (although that would be smarter than what they do now)

If you place racetrack-like waypoints every 200 meters or so along the "road", and make those waypoints reappear each time the map wraps around, or populate waypoints for each map "tile" that NPC vehicles are on, and then the NPCs run along the waypoints in a determined direction, then they'll keep running straight through player vehicles, which might be the best decision - I blow straight through pursuing vehicles a lot!
So 3 rules:
1) Follow the road
2) Stay with the cargo vehicles, which will just be running the heck away.
3) keep guns on the closest enemy, and this will override Rule 1.
You could even have it a little centralized by having all NPC vehicles try to "flock" to the leader of the squad - who would be the target in an assassination mission, so the game is already tracking them. And I suspect the leader's alive/dead status affects morale for all characters on both sides. Wherever the squad leader goes, the the rest follow. If the squad leader dies, tthe NPCs panic and run in every direction, which might be considered realistic.
It would probably take some adjustment period while the AI parameters get fine-tuned, but it would be interesting.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 18, 2014, 2:30 am
Fifth said:
Crispin, Goat, may I get you two to step back for a minute? Is it possible you two come from two different regions, perhaps with two different dialect usages for the phrase "got it"? This is a thing that happens to human beings who speak the same language sometimes, and perhaps BOTH OF YOU SHOULD GROW UP AND GET BACK ONTO A POINT THAT MATTERS.
*deep breath*
This is why I'm not on the forums much.


So I make a single reply after Goat was already warned by 2 players for being annoying...  and also by the developer to stop fighting with juan over language usage and suddenly IM acting like a child?

A single reply is acting like a child?

LOL

funny stuff.

Maybe Goat needs to go back and read the post where Sam told him to stop fighting with Juan or face a Forum Ban for them both.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 18, 2014, 2:34 am
Back on topic...

There is a potentially Game Breaking bug that I will be exposing in just a bit. Prob Post about it in a few hours or so. Enjoy!
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 18, 2014, 6:43 am
Juris said:
Agree with 5th about Traders but the AI is too dumb to run away in any coherent fashion.  Likely they'd just scatter all over the map (although that would be smarter than what they do now)


It is.. and the nature of the maps... Bumps and twists makes it very unlikely that it can be programmed to effectively match speeds or keep together.

A trader solution was proposed in another thread recently... Something like... Make the trade vehicles run.. increase the cr of the defenders OR give the trade vehicles front guns and make them all fight. I prefer the first option... When they used to do this the trade cars often escaped.
*Rev. V*


Posted Jun 18, 2014, 8:04 am
"im not sure this is what i meant"

It's a language barrier issue, it's totally what you meant.
Marshals need more power and less accountability.

Well, in any case, *THIS* marshall does.

Once the nuns are given the keys to Evan and everyone gets used to living with their ideals of wasteland justice, you'll all wonder how we got along without their guidance.


*goat starer*


Posted Jun 18, 2014, 9:06 am
I would make me a marshal again... I was ace... I used my powers for evil :cyclops:
*sam*


Posted Jun 18, 2014, 9:11 am
Fifth said:
Juris said:
Agree with 5th about Traders but the AI is too dumb to run away in any coherent fashion.  Likely they'd just scatter all over the map (although that would be smarter than what they do now)

If you place racetrack-like waypoints every 200 meters or so along the "road", and make those waypoints reappear each time the map wraps around, or populate waypoints for each map "tile" that NPC vehicles are on, and then the NPCs run along the waypoints in a determined direction, then they'll keep running straight through player vehicles, which might be the best decision - I blow straight through pursuing vehicles a lot!
So 3 rules:
1) Follow the road
2) Stay with the cargo vehicles, which will just be running the heck away.
3) keep guns on the closest enemy, and this will override Rule 1.
You could even have it a little centralized by having all NPC vehicles try to "flock" to the leader of the squad - who would be the target in an assassination mission, so the game is already tracking them. And I suspect the leader's alive/dead status affects morale for all characters on both sides. Wherever the squad leader goes, the the rest follow. If the squad leader dies, tthe NPCs panic and run in every direction, which might be considered realistic.
It would probably take some adjustment period while the AI parameters get fine-tuned, but it would be interesting.


I'm not arguing against your core logic here, but I must point out that programming AI is *never* as simple as it seems; humans gloss over a huge amount of possibility and assume large amounts of common sense.. so what may seem like a comprehensive set of rules will in fact be far from it. Computers have no inherent common sense or ability to fill in missing gaps in rules or knowledge.
*Bastille*


Posted Jun 18, 2014, 12:46 pm
goat starer said:
I would make me a marshal again... I was ace... I used my powers for evil  :cyclops:


Now you just use your bunnies for evil
Iron Wraith


Posted Jun 18, 2014, 5:59 pm
Maybe there should be no NPC trade vehicles at all.

1) No stocks would be replenished in the NPC market place unless PC do mail runs (no fuel, no food, ammo or water). Prices wouldn't increase unrealistically when stocks were low as the NPCs are assumed to have their own supply routes (these would be many lorry plus escorts and excellent scouts and so are not appropriate for PC encounters).

2) Doing mail runs with PVP flags on would provide more opportunity for PC bandits. Non-PVPers would still suffer the normal bandit attacks.

3) No silly NPC trader behaviour that is apparently so abhorrent. People seem less bothered by the NPC bandit behaviour.

4) The PC market place can carry on as it normal.

Sadly such a model would probably bankrupt the game as putting the economy in the hands of players generally destroys it.
Grimm Sykes


Posted Jun 18, 2014, 7:10 pm
1.The NPC traders you see have no bearing on what inventory is in town, the only effect it has is role-playing flavor

2. thats how it works already

3. they run based on stress and where weapons are mounted.

*goat starer*


Posted Jun 18, 2014, 9:30 pm
Iron Wraith said:
Maybe there should be no NPC trade vehicles at all.

1) No stocks would be replenished in the NPC market place unless PC do mail runs (no fuel, no food, ammo or water).  Prices wouldn't increase unrealistically when stocks were low as the NPCs are assumed to have their own supply routes (these would be many lorry plus escorts and excellent scouts and so are not appropriate for PC encounters).



ah.. DW scavenger  B)
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 19, 2014, 8:40 pm
No, in Scav hauling cargo or doing mail runs do not affect town stock. Town has no stock. At least not for the player.

In Scav the towns are all fully self supporting islands of greed that exclude players from their wealth and don't care to receive or desire help from players

The economy in both reg and Scav need revamping but without a playerbase capable of supporting a dynamic economy it's mostly useless trying to make it better
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 19, 2014, 9:04 pm
StCrispin said:
No, in Scav hauling cargo or doing mail runs do not affect town stock. Town has no stock. At least not for the player.

In Scav the towns are all fully self supporting islands of greed that exclude players from their wealth and don't care to receive or desire help from players

The economy in both reg and Scav need revamping but without a playerbase capable of supporting a dynamic economy it's mostly useless trying to make it better


You are very odd.. in scav if you transport stuff you can list if in the player market... It is then there for exchange. It works just fine.. like a market.. like all markets before money.

The town's are places people live and meet to trade... The basis of most towns in history.
Fifth


Posted Jun 19, 2014, 9:57 pm
goat starer said:
The town's are places people live and meet to trade... The basis of most towns in history.


*PEDANT MODE ACTIVATED*
There's actually kind of a debate in urban-geographic circles of whether towns started because they were at natural trading points, or for defense from hostile outsiders. There's arguments for both. Catal Hayuk and Jericho, respectively, though I think Catal's odd architecture is at least partly defensive in nature. There's also a third argument that town and cities developed as administrative centers in areas that were doing large-scale irrigation.
Given the major danger posed by DW's animal life and pirate populations, it makes sense for DW's towns, especially the southern ones, to be primarily defensive rather than tradeposts.
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 19, 2014, 10:06 pm
Fifth said:
goat starer said:
The town's are places people live and meet to trade... The basis of most towns in history.


*PEDANT MODE ACTIVATED*
There's actually kind of a debate in urban-geographic circles of whether towns started because they were at natural trading points, or for defense from hostile outsiders. There's arguments for both. Catal Hayuk and Jericho, respectively, though I think Catal's odd architecture is at least partly defensive in nature. There's also a third argument that town and cities developed as administrative centers in areas that were doing large-scale irrigation.
Given the major danger posed by DW's animal life and pirate populations, it makes sense for DW's towns, especially the southern ones, to be primarily defensive rather than tradeposts.


do you not think it was both? or all three? I can assure you that most British market towns developed as.... market towns... and given that the threat from stuff outside the towns is minimal that seems to be the model

All you have done is define three of the four reasons towns appear.. most towns are market... cities and citadels are something different to which peope retreat and / or project power from.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 19, 2014, 10:06 pm
I seem to be unable to list 5 boxes of food for 1 can of water in Scav. For some reason it doesn't allow me to specify what I want as payment for it. You must be playing a different version of Scav than I am. And why are you named after a disease?

I only wonder this after looking up Toxoplasmiosis and finding a link to a disease called "Fifth" which you can get from Dog Feces or raw meat

*goat starer*


Posted Jun 19, 2014, 10:08 pm
StCrispin said:
I seem to be unable to list 5 boxes of food for 1 can of water in Scav. For some reason it doesn't allow me to specify what I want as payment for it. You must be playing a different version of Scav than I am. And why are you names after a disease?

I only wonder this after looking up Toxoplasmiosis and finding a link to a disease called "Fifth" which you can get from Dog Feces or raw meat



yes you can... you go to the market.. list your 5 boxes with a player note... i look and if i could be bothered to trade with you i might.

are you completely dense? Its a market.. you trade...  :thinking: :thinking:
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 19, 2014, 10:15 pm
I'm being facetious. The point I'm making is that I can't bring things to a town to help the town grow. Like lumber and scrap metal so the mayor can install a new defense tower on the wall and put in TG for use in town defense (with player donated TG)

Or I can't give the town medicines or water to treat an outbreak of Goat-itis

I hear that's terminal and not curable though. ;)
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 19, 2014, 10:23 pm
StCrispin said:
I'm being facetious. The point I'm making is that I can't bring things to a town to help the town grow. Like lumber and scrap metal so the mayor can install a new defense tower on the wall and put in TG for use in town defense (with player donated TG)

Or I can't five the town medicines or water to treat an outbreak of Goat-itis

I hear that's terminal and not curable though. ;)


you are the town  :stare:

there is no mayor in scav... no hospital... its just you... you are thinking of the wrong game
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 19, 2014, 10:39 pm
Scav in Morgan have a Mayor. Same Mayor as in regular Morgan

Currently Xman

Except scavs may not get any overcap bonus since I have no capped scavs to test it with.
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 19, 2014, 11:06 pm
StCrispin said:
Scav in Morgan have a Mayor. Same Mayor as in regular Morgan

Currently Xman

Except scabs may not get any overcap bonus since I have no capped scabs to test it with


when found to be talking nonsense... obfuscate!
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 20, 2014, 12:22 am
You mean Convoluted

Obfuscate would be to make something obscure or unclear. It is quite clear that Morgan has a Mayor. Plus don't forget all of the talk about possibly making each town have a player Mayor and defenses once there is a playerbase capable of supporting such
*The X Man*


Posted Jun 20, 2014, 12:43 am
Scavies in Morgan?!? There goes the neighborhood!
*Boonwolf*


Posted Jun 20, 2014, 3:15 am
goat starer said:
StCrispin said:
I'm being facetious. The point I'm making is that I can't bring things to a town to help the town grow. Like lumber and scrap metal so the mayor can install a new defense tower on the wall and put in TG for use in town defense (with player donated TG)

Or I can't five the town medicines or water to treat an outbreak of Goat-itis

I hear that's terminal and not curable though. ;)


you are the town  :stare:

there is no mayor in scav... no hospital... its just you... you are thinking of the wrong game

No hospital so what did I just check my guy into?
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 20, 2014, 8:06 am
Boonwolf said:
goat starer said:
StCrispin said:
I'm being facetious. The point I'm making is that I can't bring things to a town to help the town grow. Like lumber and scrap metal so the mayor can install a new defense tower on the wall and put in TG for use in town defense (with player donated TG)

Or I can't five the town medicines or water to treat an outbreak of Goat-itis

I hear that's terminal and not curable though. ;)


you are the town  :stare:

there is no mayor in scav... no hospital... its just you... you are thinking of the wrong game

No hospital so what did I just check my guy into?


There is no hospital. If you don't have meds you can't treat yours character. You are the hospital. It's overlayed over main game so you do it by clicking the hospital building in Ss but it's obviously not a hospital. You don't pay hospital fees... You just use your own resources. If it were worth the effort it would be changed to be reliant on your first aid skill.
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 20, 2014, 8:07 am
StCrispin said:
You mean Convoluted

Obfuscate would be to make something obscure or unclear. It is quite clear that Morgan has a Mayor. Plus don't forget all of the talk about possibly making each town have a player Mayor and defenses once there is a playerbase capable of supporting such


I meant obfuscate
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 20, 2014, 7:35 pm
So if I'm treating my own guys, that means my towns top First Aid guy should gain FA skill
*Rev. V*


Posted Jun 20, 2014, 8:34 pm
If that hasn't been implemented, it should be.
I don't see that as being an unreasonable expectation.
*goat starer*


Posted Jun 21, 2014, 8:27 am
*Rev. V* said:
If that hasn't been implemented, it should be.
I don't see that as being an unreasonable expectation.


certainly how i would make it work.
*StCrispin*
ce.services.mh@gmail.com

Posted Jun 22, 2014, 3:04 am
Should be able to click on the wounded guy and have a "treat" or "care" button. When clicking that you then assign a medical team or 1 or more gangers. Then pick wither or not to use medicines for a roll modifier. Then click to initiate and the server compares skill vs wound severity and gives a result

--Remarkable Recovery (3 days removed from recovery time and no "mileage")
--significant success (2 days off)
--standard success (1 day off no worsening of symptoms)
--ineffective care (no reduction of recovery time)
--worsening (adds a day to recovery time.)
--more harm than good ( adds 2 days plus chance to develop additional injury such as bleeding, infection, etc based on amount of failure roll)
--Malpractice (3 to 5 days added to recovery, existing activity % reduced again by amount between current and full, additional symptoms or injury, subtraction to next care roll)

If activity % drops to -200 result is death

Care personnel gain experience points based on factors such as number of patients cared for, level of success or failure (extremes to either end of the spectrum result in greater knowlage than just middle rolls) and severity of wound treated. Actual value also depends on how many experience points are required for a skill point gain

Thus you kill a lot of your wounded guys accidentally before getting a well trained skillful medical team. Which is as to be expected without med schools to train gangers
*Ayjona*


Posted Jun 25, 2014, 9:47 am
It seems to me I could not have chosen a better time to return (again)!

I had expected to pop back into Evan for a Darkwind that would live on and on for years, but not see much in the way of changes. But instead, I find a game in a state of (potentially awesome) semi-rebirth.

In most games, I would have had reservations regarding a move to f2p. But, for one, I’ve seen it done well in former premium MMOS, such as DDO, LotRO and Pirates of the Burning Sea. But most of all, I trust that Sam and the rules council will create the near-perfect hybrid, and put a stopper on any drastic pay to win tendencies.

So, how is the Gazette these days? Room for an old chief editor to make his lukewarm return? I’ve gone and turned myself into a real life reporter during my absence, so I long to put my talents of evil rhetoric and manipulation of the masses towards anything that is not serious journalism ;)
*Bastille*


Posted Jun 25, 2014, 1:34 pm
<{is somewhat relieved to hand over a well chewed, underused pencil}

Welcome back B)
*sam*


Posted Jun 25, 2014, 3:26 pm
Hey, good to see you Ayjona! :-)
*The X Man*


Posted Jun 25, 2014, 5:51 pm
*Ayjona* said:
So, how is the Gazette these days? Room for an old chief editor to make his lukewarm return?


Please do, the Gazette definitely needs some 'personal' attention instead of all the auto posts.

And don't use Bastille's so-called writing instrument... you don't know where that thing has been!!
Lord Foul


Posted Jun 26, 2014, 5:01 am
*The X Man* said:
*Ayjona* said:
So, how is the Gazette these days? Room for an old chief editor to make his lukewarm return?


Please do, the Gazette definitely needs some 'personal' attention instead of all the auto posts.

And don't use Bastille's so-called writing instrument... you don't know where that thing has been!!


Actually we do, (shows X picture Bast took of himself that LF found on Basts previous drinking table showing where the writing instrument has been)...(Hands X barf bag)

(Pats X on the back)-Sorry you had to see that buddy. ;)
*The X Man*


Posted Jun 26, 2014, 7:46 am
:( my eyes!!!! scarred.... for life!
*Bastille*


Posted Jun 26, 2014, 11:51 am
what! I was itchy!
*Brunwulf*


Posted Jun 26, 2014, 4:48 pm
*The X Man* said:
*Ayjona* said:
So, how is the Gazette these days? Room for an old chief editor to make his lukewarm return?


Please do, the Gazette definitely needs some 'personal' attention instead of all the auto posts.

And don't use Bastille's so-called writing instrument... you don't know where that thing has been!!


Yeah, There is lots of new stuff to use the gazette for- especially with the influx (hopefully) of a few more players soon.
Ever since the space trading game ELITE was released, I have always been a fan of game fiction.
The gazette could have REAL interviews with vet players, CREATIVE interviews with players characters after winning leagues etc?
If a proper, real journo/writer wants to run with the gazette- I say YES, YES, YES!
Anyway- welcome back Ayjona.
*Snipe*


Posted Jun 26, 2014, 5:19 pm
The perfect way to draw players into the role-playing aspect of the game. Which for me is a major part. Interviews with "characters" would add yet another level of depth to the game, and it would make it more personal to us all. Fiction also needs its space, because most players have a story of their gang in their head. That and stories of crazy scouts that are told first perspective are always fun.


The possibilities are many, if we find people with the drive and time to make it work.
*The X Man*


Posted Jun 26, 2014, 5:35 pm
23Baker27 was doing player bios and interviews. He did about 3-4 players last year before he stopped playing. I would have to look it up if these made it on the gazette or if it was just in the forums.
Either way, having someone continue this work would be a good edition.

Plus, adding in current activities and events to keep players up to date on whats happening where and to whom. A little bit of spice and RP always make for a good read.


EDIT: I just checked, Bakers column did make the Gazette. His last story was in the Jan/Feb 2067 Edition if you guys wish to read.
*Ayjona*


Posted Jul 15, 2014, 9:51 am
Hey esteemed developer, as well as old and future adversaries! Remind me not to make my return to Darkwind (and make a ruckus in the forums about it) when I’m just about to go on a laptop-less vacation ;)

On the topic of Gazette content, that’s actually kinda how the Gazette used to work. Or was intended to. Or was intended to gradually evolve into. A vessel for immersion and roleplaying, delivered through a mesh of direct reporting and fan fiction disguised as reporting, in smooth combination with in-canon information that bleeds over into off-game aspects, was always my hope for the paper. And I would be surprised if Sam’s vision is any less grand ;)

I did quite an extensive (and entirely inappropriate) interview with Alocalypse back during the early days of my tenure as editor. And there were character portraits, extended epitaphs, coverage of sport events (such as the infamous developer show-down), community-voted dream PvP matchups, weekly awards, travellouges, and regular news reports of noteworthy events (Firelight addition, large-scale battles, etc). Plus an entire brand of writing that could only be described as “Badgered”. Go back to the earliest issues of the Gazette for THAT unique phenomenon ;)

(Player bios would have to be written in an in-canon style, and based around a fictional leader of a gang. But other than that, another great recurring feature.)

Now, with this messy business of real life and much less interesting journalism, I might not have the time to replicate all that early activity. But I’ll gladly pen an article now and then. Probably more importantly, I’d love to provide inspiration and ideas for articles, text polish and editing, organization, beat assignment and just enough procedures and method to provide a small, exciting sense of realism. Without all that other baggage of realism ;)

Lastly, about that instrument for recording information in physical form, sometimes known as writing… That’s not the same pen viKKing used to stir chemical compounds for Skull and Bones’ homebrewed brand of flaming oil jet ammo, is it?

Uhm… wasn’t one of the primary ingredients… methane… which viKKing’s gang extracted from the, uhm, rear ends of…

All those marks are not from chewing :O
*Bastille*


Posted Jul 15, 2014, 10:53 am
points to the newly appointed editor... some smoking killer

"talk to him about it" ;)

"has anyone got some tweezers?"

if he could sit he would, instead he hobbles off
*Brunwulf*


Posted Jul 26, 2014, 5:34 pm
Just wondering....

If I spend CRM on engine upgrades, will they stack with my mech engine tuning skills, and my DR Mafia tuning bonuses?

*sam*


Posted Jul 26, 2014, 5:47 pm
Brunwulf said:
Just wondering....

If I spend CRM on engine upgrades, will they stack with my mech engine tuning skills, and my DR Mafia tuning bonuses?



yes
*Brunwulf*


Posted Jul 26, 2014, 5:53 pm
OK- Thanks SAM
The Ayatollah of Rock N Roller


Posted Aug 12, 2014, 2:08 am
What about a skin shop that we can sell paint jobs for hard or soft currency?
*sam*


Posted Aug 12, 2014, 6:10 am
The Ayatollah of Rock N Roller said:
What about a skin shop that we can sell paint jobs for hard or soft currency?


Yeah, that's a nice idea that's been floated a couple of times.. I have noted it for future work :-)
*Jagged Monkey*


Posted Aug 12, 2014, 1:18 pm
The Ayatollah of Rock N Roller said:
What about a skin shop that we can sell paint jobs for hard or soft currency?


We do this now.  I've already sold a few skins. 
*Boonwolf*


Posted Aug 13, 2014, 2:49 am
I would like to see an actual 3D paint shop program that is linked in lobby. That way retards like me would play around skinning.

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