Understanding the PVP debate, Have I missed Something?
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*Bigspenner* Posted Jan 16, 2014, 3:19 pm |
I am confused by the PVP debate.
To me it seems that there are a fair few gangs who are keen on PVP and have their status set to PVP open. I know that Shantyville is totally PVP open. Yet no one ever does any PVP and instead they just complain that PVP isn't available. My question is therefore; Why don't the gangs wanting to play PVP puts some gangers and vehicles in SV or challenge other PVP gangs? It seem to me that actually what they want is to pick fights with those who either are not confident enough to play PVP or don't want to play PVP rather than actually risk facing someone who actually wants to play PVP and is confident enough. I could be wrong but if Goat and Joel and the others are so keen on PVP why don't they move a squad to SV and bully anyone who dares to go there or even better actually fight each other using the PVP open status they all have? Have I missed something? If so I apologise unreservedly. |
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Necrotech Posted Jan 16, 2014, 4:33 pm |
1 - Shantyville is not fully open PvP, to the best of my knowledge 2 - PvP does happen, but IMHO the one aspect that Pro-Pvp players desire most, is Intercepting PvP. To me that is the best part of this game, and also far more in vein with the atmosphere. 3 - Squad challenge is too forced and restrictive, also not in vein with the theme of post-apocalyptic warfare. 4 - Confidence (and skill) in PvP is only gained by doing it. 5 - Intercept PvP is *NOT* bullying. It is my belief that those who state that it is, are using that crutch as a platform for rhetoric. Plainly speaking, most Intercept PvP events are probably some of *the* most gentlemanly play, when it happens. I can think of only one *1* instance in the last year that a newbie was involved in PvP intercept that came down to actual fighting. However, that player, along with his scout mates, participated in a very memorable battle. To boot all his and their items were then returned promptly. - Do I believe that SS should be Intercept safe.... no. - Do I believe the flag system is a functional solution? No it gets constantly abused and very heavily. Those same people who abuse this system, are safe without penalty or recourse from the rest of the community. If there is a score to be settled, slight to be avenged, or hell, just plain ol' piracy. It should be able to happen. It was intended to be part of the feel of this game, and due to some (IMHO) who are only controlling their "business" interests by hiding within that system, instead of defending their practices in the way the game was intended, with their guns, gear, and grime. - Do I believe their should be GR limits... In a squad challenge Yes, that could work. In an intercept situation, No, certainly not. Not all gangs and gangers are not created equal, and let's face it, there are some people who put in the wrench time, grind time, and REAL time to get what they have. On the flip-side, those very people have far more to lose if things go awry. Why should they not use them in a manner as they see fit, while still remaining within the spirit and intentions of this game universe's atmosphere? - Do I believe that the forums are the only place PvP without limits happens? Yes, and is *DEFINITELY* the wrong place to do it. Do the fighting out in the sands... in the wastes, in the arenas... where it belongs. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 16, 2014, 5:20 pm |
I think that about sums it up peeps...
Can a moderator lock this thread and sticky it... It's unique. |
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*DoubleTap* Posted Jan 16, 2014, 5:34 pm |
Lock it before the pro-flag bunch has had their say? Necro speaks eloquently, equitably, and sensibly, but those who don't have a problem with the flag system ought to be able to do the same, no? | ||||||
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*Bigspenner* Posted Jan 16, 2014, 5:35 pm |
I hear what you are saying but am still confused by the sentiment. Point 1, no idea what full and partial PVP open difference is but I have been intercepted there. Point 2 I was intercepted in shanty so don't understand whats missing Point 3 Theme is a personal interpretation and so while I can see yours I think it should be up to the individual to a certain extent and so having shanty as an area of open pvp for those that want it sounds a fair compromise to me, Point 4 Is totally irrelevant, you only learn what buggery feels like by doing but I would be arrested if I forced you to learn when you don't want to! Overall its seems what you are saying is that for you Evan is a lawless and dirty place where its survival of the fittest and the strongest gangs should, as is realistic, be able to do what they like to who they like when they like. Others would prefer not to play that aspect of the game. I think both opportunities should be available and the pvp status of individual gangs and Shantys PVP status allow for that. I would be happy enough to hear improvements to the scope of PVP types of encounter but don't understand why some of the pro PVP brigade are so against anyone else enjoying Darkwind in the fashion they would like too. Don't judge me on this as I am pro PVP and the right for the chaps that want it to play that way. My point is I don't understand why some of the pro PVP players don't want anyone else to enjoy Darkwind in their own way. It seems selfish and childish to me. I think the desperate for PVP players should list their names here and declare last time they had a PVP combat, intercept or challenge. They should then all move some people to SV and try some PVP if they like it so much. If they don't get enough PVP action when they have actually tried to get some then restart the discussion about widening the parameters but until they actually make an effort to use the facilities that are available stop moaning about it. Of the six PVP open gangs I looked at today Necro has two gangers in SV and Xman 5 and other than that no one else does. Joel doesn't Goat doesnt so I can only conclude there is no real interest. I accept Shanty may not be fully PVP open and also that as a reasonably new player I don't even know what that means but it is the best facility there is so why not use it then ask for more, show Sam there is an appetite for it and he may well provide more facilities as any businessman would. |
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*Boonwolf* Posted Jan 16, 2014, 5:39 pm |
Some of the best times I have had playing were PvP or SCL combats. Over a year later I still replay in my head the combat me and necro had "if only I had known my buzzer better" things may have ended differently.
I did take a red but it was just a freak blue and neither of us foresaw it. I think the big fear with PvP is: Im going to get hit by a prick and he is going to have a 12 gunner specked crew and red me out like I do AI. I have to say this almost never happens, and when it has happened payment was returned 10 fold by other gangs who stepped up. There's always Bounty Out some of my crew and gear im rolling id almost be forced to do this "some times". SS IMO should have a skill cap/handicap in PVP due to being to training grounds for noobs. |
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*Boonwolf* Posted Jan 16, 2014, 5:52 pm |
SV this SV that Its a $h!t hole of a town you got a Pub some shady guy who deals stolen goods and a junk pile! its more like a camp that cant fix things than a town. | ||||||
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*The X Man* Posted Jan 16, 2014, 6:23 pm |
From what I remember and correct me if I am wrong, shortly after the time I first subscribed, was when the Flag system was being voted on. Once the agreement was made, your PVP flag status was either On or Off, but Shanty was at that time, to be changed to FULL ON PVP.
Some time had past and Joel brought it to light that Shanty never got switched like it was supposed to. So, it still remains as is until Sam fixes that issue. It had been brought up many times in the forums to fix Shanty, but nothing has been done about it. This does seem like a good opportunity to bring this back up to Sam's attention and see if he will make the fix. |
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Necrotech Posted Jan 16, 2014, 8:05 pm |
In response - Point - 1 If you were intercepted anywhere, the following had to occur. You and/or a member of your squad (whether as leader or member), as well as your opponent(s), had to have their PvP flag set to "ON" Full PvP on would mean full removal of the flag system, leaving everybody open to intentional and incidental player encounters. Point - 2 See Point - 1 Statement. Point - 3 Theme in this case is not a personal interpretation at all and I quote: "Battle for survival and supremacy in the gritty post-apocalyptic world of vehicular combat where strategy and tactics determine winners and losers. Manage your gang, train your characters, design your own cars and scavenge for parts. Make your fortune in racing, deathracing and arena combat leagues, or venture into the wilderness and engage in tense multiplayer battles with pirates, traders and other players." This is the Dark Wind "Mission Statement". The central point of this game, it's atmosphere, and intentions. As for the second part of your rebuttal, Why should anybody be regulated, regardless of preference, to just Shantyville? Being honest, getting material, keeping vehicles in good working condition, even ammunition there.... the basic level of supplies for this game, can be a challenge in unto itself. Also that would completely derail other portions of the game, not just PvP intercepts. Many players keep a presence in SS for 3 main things. Market availability, starting gangers, and more importantly, The training center. The both the Texan and Sarsville Training centers do not give great training benefits... unless you like to rapidly train mechanic skills. Finally, if PvP were fully open again in Evan, there is always one option that what carry you past an unintended encounter. Bounty Out. Pay an amount based on a ratio to your CR squad size to the other player, If you both cannot agree to a truce. So even if one does want to carry the encounter to the combat phase while the other does not (This is an *exceptionally* rare circumstance.) there is an another option to avoid the confrontation. Point - 4 PvP is not totally irrelevant, especially when it is one of central and core themes of this game. The benefits for doing direct PvP combat are numerous. The training bonuses per gang member involved is extreme. Sometimes double or even triple the normal rate of advancement per normal PvE encounter. Fatality and injury rates are extremely low. It is one of the safest activities, in game. Unless you are killed outright (very small chance as *sam* has lessened the critical hit percentage immensely in wilderness PvP), will likely live. Compared to an arena, track, or PvE wilderness encounter, ones survival rate is well above 90% for injurious harm. There is the argument by certain players about intentionally killing gang members, of which *sam* has addressed already that topic directly. To find someone to excessively do that and especially an unprovoked attack, is extremely uncommon. Despite the venue, this can happen anywhere. In an Arena Event, SCL match, COE venue, Squad Combat, Race (Death or otherwise), or Intercept Encounter. That sort of behavior can happen regardless. If you are not participating in any of the listed events above, then a player is only experiencing a minor portion of the game in itself. The actions you mentioned are not part of this activity set. Shooting polygon vehicles with virtual people in them, is. Learning differing tactics from various players, including facing them directly in combat does, in fact, improve your player and your gang's skill sets. *It is an absolutely relevant portion of the learning curve.* And yes, even summarizing *sam*'s own personal words to describe the atmosphere and feel of Evan. It is a seedy, dirty, gritty world, where the populace follows the only rule, The rule of the gun. Those men and women are the bandits, peacemakers, saints, and devils of Evan. All of them have the same opportunities, for good or ill. If you wish play those people warlike, be also have them prepared for Death's peace. If you wish to use them peacefully, be prepared to defend your means through War. Violence is the way of life in Evan, because to your men and women, it is the only thing that ensures survival. |
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*Rev. V* Posted Jan 16, 2014, 8:20 pm |
"Plainly speaking, most Intercept PvP is probably some of *the* most gentlemanly play, when it happens. "
I would agree with that statement. People can bitch all they want, but it REALLY does come down to the fact that the people who do the intercepting don't want to break their toys. (IE: the folks they are intercepting) I have YET to be in an intercept where once your gangers got a blue hit on them, the opponent didn't let you resign. It's just good business NOT to totally red your opponents gangers and steal all of their stuff. Because if that DID happen on a regular basis, the folks who DO fly the PVP flag would turn it off, and the pool of targets just gets smaller and smaller. I once lost a *SQUADCAR* in a pvp and got it back from my opponent! PVP isn't evil, and neither are the folks doing intercepts. |
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*Bigspenner* Posted Jan 16, 2014, 10:07 pm |
Rev I totally agree.
Necro I partially agree, Although I never said PVP was irrelevant so you are mis-quoting me. Your point 4 was that you only learn and improve by doing PVP which was irrelevant to my original point which was some people don't want to do PVP. I didn't say you were wrong. I also agree that PVP is an important part of what Darkwind is. Just not to everyone and I don't see why what you or I want should be forced on other people just because we want it. I think the game should be playable in whichever way you want to subject to some basic real world decency. On the subject of my intercept you are completely wrong. I had one vehicle, have never been pvp open, there was no one else in the squad and my vehicle was an unarmed flail. I was intercepted by someone who was in a single rear weaponed car who told me if I came back I would feel the wrath of their sniper level 6. They said they couldn't be bothered to chase as they were rear mounted and I said you can if you want don't worry its part of the game but they were not bothered and so I ran away. Its not an unpleasant experience but does imply that had they been front armed they would have stolen my courier vehicle just for the hell of it. If that's shanty its fair also. It does seem that many people have no idea what is even available and my original point that no one uses what is still stands. No one has told me a single occasion in the last few months they have played a wilderness pvp encounter. That does make the volume of demand seem hot airish. I think they should play PVP and it should be available and shanty should be the PVP open paradise people want and maybe expand that to sars and fl. I believe you when you talk of the good conduct and I believe most people. I don't even know how PVP is arranged but I am keen to try as long as its not always a David and Goliath situation. I don't find being hopelessly outclassed much fun so I don't do it but I love a close game. Nothing will change if everyone stays so polarised and so I would suggest a few people should start to make a few concessions to people of differing opinions and needs. |
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*The X Man* Posted Jan 16, 2014, 10:12 pm |
I heard Snipe will steal your meds and sell them on the black market for a profit 
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PA Racers Posted Jan 16, 2014, 10:55 pm |
"Battle for survival and supremacy in the gritty post-apocalyptic world of vehicular combat where strategy and tactics determine winners and losers.
Manage your gang, train your characters, design your own cars and scavenge for parts. Make your fortune in racing, deathracing and arena combat leagues, OR venture into the wilderness and engage in tense multiplayer battles with pirates, traders and other players." Think you seem to overlook the biggest 2 letter word in that quote. So I made it bigger for you. Your welcome! |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Jan 16, 2014, 11:05 pm |
Well also, it says multiplayer, not PVP. But a guess a uncooperative player wouldnt comprehend what COOP multiplayer is | ||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 16, 2014, 11:40 pm |
I don't get your point... The OR would suggest that you can either just play arena games or accept you may be playing against players in the wild. Are you suggesting that people who don't like pvp should be restricted to the (more dangerous pvp enabled) arena and race events? Or did you not read the quote correctly? This quote simply offers 2 ideas of how a player might play the game... The fact that both involve PvP speaks volumes but it's otherwise pretty irrelevant. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 17, 2014, 12:02 am |
I really am done arguing about this ####. Do what you want. I do what I want etc.
I had my Ateam in shanty for two real years and never intercepted anyone there. I finally caught one squad leaving (it is rare enough) and it was FKIN IMMUNE(PvP flag off and it worked in shanty) I lost it on the forums a while back, nothing happened and I left shanty. Honestly. I dont care- dont fix intercepts, fix intercepts - chage it all dont change anything. I dont give a flying goat. |
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Juris Posted Jan 17, 2014, 12:19 am |
Darkwind OR Wasteland Tycoon
Seriously though, something Joel said awhile back - think about the best times you ever had playing DW. Bet it was PvP. Yeah, this includes town events. Sure, your first few co-op scouts were really cool. But after that first 3 month period of time, bet it was PvP. When your characters survive something like that you feel like your gang deserves the millions in cash it sits on like Scrooge McDuck's vault 
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*Bastille* Posted Jan 17, 2014, 12:19 am |
It appears to be very difficult to intercept people at present. You try for hours and get nothing. Or so I have heard. Ive tried for about 30 minutes on a dozen occasions, thought about the claims of hours, got bored and went and did something else. Im not that interested in PvP. But I can see that people are trying, its just not happening. I don't see why people should be interested in PvP. Some people don't want it for whatever reason. They shouldn't be required to deal with it. Theres a flag for that. I don't see why people who are keen for global PvP should be worried about what someone else has gained being able to 'dodge' PvP, Or be worried by people who abuse the flag. Just don't worry about them. Accept whatever they have gained, whatever they achieve, whatever taunt they have made in the forums, or in some place where you are not the dominant party, accept that as some part of the harsh post apocalyptic environment that you cannot control and move on. If it comes down to gentlemanly conduct and returning goods (whish is nice and makes things fun), its not played in theme with the game, so the whole point is moot. PvP can be fun, there is a little flag for it. Use it or stfu. |
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Groovelle Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:22 am |
The difference between squad challenges and intercepts is the difference between having a significant other that *schedules* intimate times, and spontaneously being with your significant other (or other people) as the want pops up.
I've had my flag on since that started and I've been intercepted twice. They were thrilling, both when I was armed or unarmed. But, I run muscle cars. There isn't much many people can do to me in their landies and apaches. If you're only able to afford a couple apaches, though, and you're trying your luck to get your first sniper spec, how much fun is it really to go out there when people have sniper 6? That's ignoring the fact that if my phoenix squad runs into a laser muscle car with a V8, I'm in for trouble. But, I could also score a laser. Point is, if you're in a tank and someone not only more skilled than you but with more skilled characters comes up, you might as well go get a drink and let him have his way with you - same outcome. Edit: So, keep the PVP flag, make intercepts easier. That's logical. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:39 am |
Squad challenges are usually for friends.
Intercepts are usually for enemies. Squad challenges are meaningless , perhaps bragging rights or just for fun... Intercepts are (or were) about hurting someone. Stopping them and pillaging them. Maybe they pissed you off , or maybe they are carrying tonnes of good stuff or you just plain want to have a a reputation that you are the dread pirate of BL and everyone better watch their ass when they roll out of town. It a sandbox/RP thing....some people will never understand. |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Jan 17, 2014, 6:35 am |
fighting someone you don't agree with is the cowards solution. unless that person has done something to you, like steal from you or attacked you first. | ||||||
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PvtParty Posted Jan 17, 2014, 11:34 am |
OK, from someone (else) who's not done wilderness PvP, it seems to me that:
Squad challenge is similar to SCL. Both sides are expecting the combat, and come equipped. I'm assuming there's CR balancing, and possibly other parameters involved, making it a fairly level playing field (I don't know if there's any skill capping, like in SCL). Intercepting would appear more like a trader hunt scout. The attacker is expecting it, but the hunted party isn't, and could well be using an unarmed/lightly armed courier, or even a convoy of trucks (either lawn-mower powered tin-foil ones, or realistic trucks). There's always the possibility that the intercepted party could have been on their way to a scout hunt of their own, in which case the could be equipped to deal with an intercept - equivalent to getting a non-trader gang on a scout. Why, then, do people seem to prefer intercepts? Wouldn't squad challenges result in fairer, closer combats, where player skill and tactics become more important than who has the big guns? -------------- For the record, my flag is off due to the fact that I regularly have need for a prolonged timeout when scouting/doing courier runs. I doubt too many interceptors would be interested in sitting around for up to 4 hours waiting for me to return... |
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Grimm Sykes Posted Jan 17, 2014, 3:44 pm |
Balancing doesn't work the way you would think. If you set CR balancing, it will remove only YOUR cars to match the opponent CR. If your opponent doesn't have it set as well, you could face the maximum CR they can toss into 20 cars. This is the case with all squad challenges. and can't even be set by someone who is intercepted | ||||||
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Juris Posted Jan 17, 2014, 4:47 pm |
I do not believe this is correct. Setting CR just means you allow the game to drop vehicles for you (which speeds things up significantly). A wilderness intercept is always CR balanced - but you might have to do it manually A squad challenge is not balanced - you just have to trust the other guy follows the agreed CR Edit: And vehicles are dropped from the 'bottom' of your squad first - so if you want to be prepared for a PVP intercept put all of your 'good' vehicles at the 'top' of the squad. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 17, 2014, 4:52 pm |
Not sure if this thread was created in response to a chat in the lobby the other day.. here is the short version:
Big Spencer: "why don't you guys do squad challenges for your PvP fix" Me: "want to do a squad challenge?" Spenner: "nope" Me: "there ya go" |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:03 pm |
capitalists Joel.. they wont fight unless they think they are guaranteed to win...
when Big becomes the most powerful gang in the game he will become a PVP tyrant demanding all the little fish flock* to his slaughter! 
* (probably shoal rather than flock) |
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*Snipe* Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:05 pm |
Alright, gonna take some heat - but oh well.
My personal opinion of the whole PVP "debate". The ones I see that are worried about PVP and getting caught in it are the same ones that only solo scout/travel anyways. Personally, those players add nothing to the game, and just play it with themselves. If these players don't want PVP, then use the flag - it was put there for YOU. Otherwise, PVP/intercepts are part of the game. The only reason people are having issue with it is that they believe it will always be unfair. Guess what? It is, and always will be. No one has the same stuff or plays the same way. If you have sent something out for the NPC's to jump - what difference would it make to be a player instead? For all the whining tied with this argument, I have yet to hear any solid stories of intercepts gone evil. I can pretty much assure you that most of the bad intercepts had the Renshai involved. I saw a few go bad - and blamed the intercepting player - and went after said player. Needless to say, the offending player has been away for a while now. I just think that for a post-apoc game like this that players have way too thin skin. Get out and have fun - and don't knock intercepts till they knock you. |
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Racing Robbie Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:12 pm |
Nope Snipe - nothing there to get worked up by, fair comment
OK new to PvP, changed the gang around, name etc and went PvP open. A week or so down the line and no intercepts ;-) But what it does mean is that I have that little buzz back when I hit the "scout" button and wondering WTF is going to happen to me this time.............. Which is good 
I think one of the reasons that town PvP (ie league events) are so nasty is that there is always a few NPCs who dislike/hate you (well as long as you are playing the game right......) and make live tough if you get beaten early by another player. |
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*Snipe* Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:15 pm |
Lol - yeah, but trust me there are people hunting you still.
The intercept system is a rough one. |
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*Bigspenner* Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:32 pm |
That's just not true , I have never been asked by any player for a squad challemnge ever. Joel I am happy to play squad challenges against anyone who wants to. I have no idea who you have asked that has said no but I think you will remember how much I wanted our SCL bout and how disappointed I was you couldn't be bothered to arrange it. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:40 pm |
Na.. I used to think that about j.s but he has had the most powerful gang for years now..and has zero interest in pvp. Some people just hate it on principal. What I always found infuriating was... this is a pvp game from the ground up. The scouting /lemming / whack a mole gameplay was added on after. Then the nerd mentality of never wanting to lose anything comes in. Sure I dont want to lose stuff either...but when you play this game as long as no have ..you lose that "fear". So I understand it...but it is in ridiculous proportions with many of our players. Fear of losing stuff ( of even permadamage!) Fear of losing gangers ( of even blue text! ) Fear of losing a pvp fight (I can understand the horror of this to have to listen to someone like firefly brag about it for years) None of these reasons are really valid to me at this point and this age of game...surely some of you can see its winding down? There is nothing to be afraid of. P.s cause people don't hate me enough... the show Firefly I watched the whole single season these last two weeks with my woman and frankly the show is ####. Its a supernerd soap opera. Melrose place in space almost as bad as new star trek 2. |
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*Snipe* Posted Jan 17, 2014, 5:58 pm |
BWAHAHAHA - never watched it.
But I don't count for I still haven't watched the new Deathrace - any of them. |
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*The X Man* Posted Jan 17, 2014, 6:45 pm |
I did my first real Intercept last night. Surprisingly, I was successful in my attempt. It also showed me that there are some variables that can happen that are not normal.
1) I intercepted a player who was trying to intercept a different player. 2) This intercept was done in Shanty, yet we pull the Swamps of Dagon map (That is a GW to MO map on the other side of Evan). 3) Intercepts can happen in any map, not just gates maps. 4) In event skill training can be double and sometimes triple the normal amount from regular scouting. Getting blue text hits increases your skill bumps. 4) After the match was over, I got an arrival town encounter in Shanty. I believe this happened because it was not a gates map. I was lucky that the town arrival was auto truced because I did not have a scout on board. 5) After the event, I repaired my opponents car. Replaced the 40% engine with a brand new one, added back all armor, added new guns that where damaged beyond repair and replaced all tires. Then I put the car back up in the market for the player. This post gives you some of the things that are possible to happen during intercepts and also shows you not all players are out for just blood. Especially when blue texts shots happened, I asked if player was going to continue before next shot command was given. Intercepts are very CR balanced. So there is NO WAY an uber vehicle with tank guns and lasers that could join and annihilate you in one turn. If your vehicle has a 120 CR, the interceptor has to bring a vehicle very close to that CR amount for the intercept to happen. The only random variable are the gangers brought to the event. There is no control set in place, nor should there be. If you guys really have an issue with that statement, THEN STOP BRINGING YOUR SNIPER 3 OR 4 GANGERS TO BLOWUP AND INTENTIONALLY RED THE IRON MONGERS IN SS! That is the complete definition of a one sided slaughter! The way I look at it, if the CR in the vehicles are balanced, I don't have an issue going up against a player with better gangers. This will make you have to change your "Sit and Shoot the AI" tactic. Instead of playing a one dimensional game of checkers, you are now playing a mutli dimensional game of chess. Now you will have to think for a change before you tap the spacebar! |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 17, 2014, 7:02 pm |
There should be no return. That is a bug. | ||||||
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*Snipe* Posted Jan 17, 2014, 7:07 pm |
Yeah, I have had returns on many of my intercepts. Sucks because you usually end up more beat up after fighting another player, but I rolled with it. I don't know how I feel about returns on intercepts though. On the one hand, you DID leave town - and as with all times you do this, there is a chance of getting caught. On the other hand, usually a PVP is a good enough fight that it becomes hard to fight or escape a return - and there leaves a better chance of dying or losing equipment.
Both ways I can work with, but no returns would make intercepting a bit safer of a proposition. |
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Juris Posted Jan 17, 2014, 7:07 pm |
PvP intercepts on a non-gates map can have returns - been like that forever. Don't know if it's a bug but I don't see a problem with it. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 17, 2014, 7:12 pm |
Goat prepares an intercept squad..... Make sure you scout with big! |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 17, 2014, 10:15 pm |
I don't really care either way. But it was a concession in the past to make pvp more safe. Anyways I doubt it will be fixed it doesn't matter. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 17, 2014, 10:25 pm |
Big... Bastard... Mr "ooh what's all this PvP about" then reds Brandi in a friendly squad challenge! If he were not my friend I would be most peeved and avenge myself. | ||||||
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Groovelle Posted Jan 18, 2014, 1:28 am |
I was there when this happened. Don't think it was Spenner, but those exact words were exchanged. I think back to the MMO I most wanted to play. Star Wars Galaxies. You could join the Empire or Rebels. Or not. If you picked a side and went overt, you were fair game everywhere. If you picked a side and were covert, you were fair game if you attacked allied NPCs. So, if I was a covert Rebel and walked up to a group of NPC Stormtroopers and shot them, an overt or covert Imperial player could shoot me right back. Made sense. could you imagine how boring and odd it'd be otherwise? As we have it in Darkwind, I can join the side of the raiders, kill civs all day long, and there's nothing you can do about it. If you've got your PVP flag on and are seeing them attack your "side", you have to do mental gymnastics to think of a reason why you can't intercept them. Most of the PVP players are willing to do the gymnastics for people who don't have their flag on. They can just imagine those people don't exist. Fair enough. But, to have people willingly turn on their flag for the added risk and get no payoff... non-PVPers have no say in what goes on with people who have their flag on. They've made themselves 'not exist' to the PVPers, so they should go hunt the Dune Peddlers for years and leave the players who want unknown challenges to get unknown challenges. I'll leave with a bit of an experience I had. Was playing Runescape years ago and explored most everywhere. I'd gone to the wilderness a bit, to see what all the fuss was about, but was afraid. If you went there, people could gank you and take all but your three most expensive items. It was such a fear, I would literally toe the line that marked the wilderness, running across it a few feet then running back while people with skulls over their head from killing another player watched. It was an exciting pleasure you didn't get from shooting the chickens through a fence to raise skill. Fast forward a while, I started saving up for better equipment. I finally built up the nerve to find out just what was in the wilderness. Thing is, the further north you went, the more dangerous. If you just crossed the line, only someone within 1 level could kill you. Go further, and it scaled up. If you somehow made it to the top, you might run into a player 50 levels higher that could magic, arch, or kill you with swords. It was a *thrill* to go into that. Fast forward a while, I saved up to get the short version of the best sword in the game, some second best armour, and prepared to use my best prayer skill. Just crossing the line into the wilderness, there was a guy in full rune armour. The fight was on. I knew he would attack only seconds before he did it. My adrenaline pumped. Hard. Someone just below the wilderness line cheered on me, the underdog in mismatched armour against Behemoth. When I won, it really wasn't about the top quality helmet and gear I took. Hell, I didn't even wear it after that because it was too ugly. But damn, I can't remember another time - from getting into fights in real life to being chased in the city by a roadrager with a gun - that made my adrenaline go so. Imagine what the naysayers would want in that situation I cross into the wilderness. Noone can kill me. I can walk up to the top, the sides, explore its emptyness, then leave and never come back. Why would I want to come explore an empty area with no reward or risk more than once. The fight wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't have come back to an empty area just to see what was going on in it. They might say he would have been there and sent me a duel request, but why would I sit around and watch duels on the other end of civilization when I can duel other fishers on the dock, or anywhere else. So they want us to go around sending requests to duel? It's just not the same. |
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*Bigspenner* Posted Jan 18, 2014, 1:37 am |
Catagorically it wasn't me. There will be times I don't want to as I am sure there will be for everyone like when my dinners nearly ready of I need a poo or I am off to the pub.
I think the best way would be a half and half world a safe area for those that don't want to inhabit the PVP open world I believe Evan once was and an equally large area where it is the down and dirty roleplay game the others want. In some ways this seems to be a difference between roleplay and strategy games and I can see how Darkwind can be viewed as either of the two or a combination of both depending on what the individual wants from it. This should be a strength rather than a bone of contention. If both extremes existed in game everyone could be happy and oddly that would make Evan paradise. |
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Groovelle Posted Jan 18, 2014, 2:45 am |
Well no. I wouldn't be able to scout with everyone or do town races all day if people who wanted to PVP had to move. AND, if we did move, Somerset would get even lonelier. Flag works. If you want to think of it as two Evans, think of it as a flagged Evan and a nonflagged Evan. We only have 40-50 characters and so much free time. | ||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 18, 2014, 9:18 am |
I don't think big is suggesting people move... Just the age old simple solution of PvP open for all in bl, sv, fl and morgan, flags on elsewhere.
Solves everything.. anyone playing those places should be good enough to PvP and big enough to take the occasional beating. There is a gauntlet for non PvP players to run through making stupid travel exploits largely redundant. And non PvP players can choose to just play the northern triangle if the want (as many have dine for years) Ps. I have seen big eat his dinner, do a poo and go to the pub simultaneously... Don't see why he can't do a squad challenge at the same time! |
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*Bigspenner* Posted Jan 18, 2014, 11:46 am |
I believe I have achieved my objective which was to understand the PVP Debate and I have a solution I think. Unlike Grooves blinkered response I am not suggesting everyone who PVPs is ONLY in the south that would be rubbish. Everyone needs to stop arguing the small points and focus on a broad solution once that is agreed we will all have to compromise the little issues. My suggestion is that as Goat clarifies above the pvp flag works in the northern triangle and dosent below that. This would mean that no one had pvp forced on them and the leagues could be freed up to be a bit more of a strategic competition that many of us would prefer. It would also mean that the PVP players really could do as much as they want and really get into the roleplay aspect of Darkwind. The rest you could agree was a civilised duelling area where surrenders are honoured in general practice. This would mean also that bi-curious players could go south risking what they were comfortable with to learn the system. Squad challenges would work everywhere. and as the training and hospitals and several leagues are in ss and elms the vets and pros and sports people would all be there and if they wanted would no doubt still scout as they enjoy it. I don't think any of the non pvp players are as worried about losing kit as many think, but given the impossibility of winning some aspects of the game without high specced gangers they do need the chance to grow some of them in order to challenge the vets supremecy. Everyone gets what they want to fair degree. Surely if we work together we can all be happy. I think there are a lot of people here selfishly wanting it all their own way and that's the problem, DW and Evan are not. I think therefore I now understand the debate and it seems the issue is more with the debaters than the debate. This can easily be made to be 90% of what everyone wants. Lets work together to make Evan the paradise we know it can be I love you all. And goat is right 100% |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 18, 2014, 11:49 am |
yes... spot on.. its the best compromise | ||||||
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musashi_san Posted Jan 18, 2014, 12:29 pm |
incidentally, correct me if i'm wrong, but you were trying to intercept me the other day and it failed, right? any idea why? one of the few times i thought i had the time for it.... of course right after that someone walked into my office, so i woulda had to bounty, but why did it fail? |
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Alec Burke Posted Jan 18, 2014, 1:40 pm |
Didn't we already try this and it didn't appear to solve anything. The lack of PvP when BL and south was all PvP open is largely what lead to the current system of flags everywhere and everywhere having PvP if your flag is set to PvP on. I guess this adds the idea of the flag system still working in SS rather than SS being completely non-PvP, but I don't see how it's going to really generate any more PVP when it didn't previously. I agree that in theory it sounds like a decent compromise, but the evidence is that it didn't work satisfactorily. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 18, 2014, 1:44 pm |
that is not what happened at all |
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Alec Burke Posted Jan 18, 2014, 1:56 pm |
So what happened then? Explain if I'm recalling it wrong. We did BL and south being PvP open and the north not. It apparently didn't work, since people in both crowds wanted a change. (Not everyone in both crowds, obviously, but it wasn't just one side wanting a change.) One of the big arguments put forth for the current system was the fact that most people are in the north and that a flag system should be allowed even in SS because that is where most people (those who want to PvP and those who don't) are and therefore being able to do PvP there if you want would be good for PvP generally. Listen, I really don't care much one way or the other in this discussion. Doesn't matter to me what happens, as while I really don't have the time to engage in PvP, even if the entirety of the game is everyone is open to PvP intercepts everywhere, it won't really bother me as I'm fine running around in Phos and simply surrendering when my 10-15 minutes of play time runs out. Don't expect that will be much fun for the interceptor, which is why with the flag system I stay PvP off. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 18, 2014, 2:11 pm |
I don't believe I have ever heard people who treat this as an RP game and want it to be challenging (what you are calling the pro PvP crowd) complain about any situation where areas of the map were PvP open. You are simply making that up.
If you ask them what they want they will tell you they want s fully open map... But I have never seen a campaign to change it or any complaint that we needed to open mord of the map because there was "not enough PvP" in the south... Again... Invention. I am heartily sick of this debate. I'm glad I'm playing mostly the fully PvP open version... Where incidentally none of the bull#### scare mongering of the other side has come to pass... I wonder why? |
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Alec Burke Posted Jan 18, 2014, 2:44 pm |
I didn't say they complained that the south was open - they complained that making the south open did not lead to the increased PvP they wanted (and many people had argued it would provide in the vote which lead to the south being completely open). Obviously what many of them really wanted was to make all of Evan PvP open and do away with the flag completely. The flag working everywhere and SS becoming open for those so flagged was the voted on compromise. The idea being that those who wanted PvP could now do so in SS, where a lot of people tend to keep much of their gang due to league activities. But you can claim that I'm making things up rather than actually provide any real information. The fact is we have done BL and south completely PvP open. We could certainly have another vote to go back to it, but I don't see why the result will be much different in the future than it was in the past. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 18, 2014, 2:58 pm |
provide any example... suggest someone who argued this? its fiction I cant provide information to back this up.. you are claiming something was said... i'm saying it wasn't. Even people with the tiniest shred of logical thinking can see that you can't provide evidence for a negative. in this case you have provided no support for your completely nonsensical comments. the very idea that the people who support open pvp have some sort of idea of how much is the 'right' amount in preposterous. They have argued about difficulty of intercepts, they have argued philosophical points of the theory of games, they have argued about the nature of this game and whet it was intended to be... but you are just making up other arguments to fit what you think. |
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Alec Burke Posted Jan 18, 2014, 4:22 pm |
You're correct, I should provide a specific example. Perhaps if I have time and I can get the forum search features to work I can dig some out the multiple threads which lead to the last pvp vote. Although even if I did, how would I know that you wouldn't just claim that the person who appeared to me to be one of the "open pvp crowd" isn't someone you don't consider to be part of it? For example, I'm fairly certain it wasn't Joel who ever made such a statement. Well, at least in terms of an argument for the current system, as he has been steadfast in opposing any flag system. He may have complained about opening up the south not leading to increased pvp - not certain on that. But what if it was someone like d0dger? Would you consider him a supporter of open pvp or opposed to open pvp? Do you have a list of acceptable pro-PvP (a term I haven't used until now, despite you claiming I was using that term) people I must find complaining about the lack of pvp in the completely opened south as an argument for the current system we have in place? Right now all I have is my memory, which includes both forum posts and comments made to me personally by people who want(ed) pvp but weren't finding much of it in the south during the trial and therefore were in favor of the current system which opened up the north for pvp as well. Who knows,perhaps it was just arguments people were telling me to try to get me to vote a certain way and they didn't actually feel that way at all. Probably easier to just say your right and I'm wrong, since that would appear to make you very happy.
I'm not even certain what you are calling my "completely nonsensical comments"? That we have already had completely open pvp in BL and south and that it didn't seem to be a satisfactory compromise? Doesn't the fact that we voted to end it provide some evidence that it wasn't working as a compromise? As I said initially, I too think it sounds like a decent compromise in theory. But if we make that change again, I don't see why we should expect the result to be any different. Won't we be back having these endless pvp debates again in another 6 months to a year? |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 18, 2014, 5:12 pm |
no it doesn't... because the vote was based on scaremongering a bunch of new players with the threat that me or joel or darth were going to murder them in their sleep and eat their babies.
the bit i am calling ninsensical however is your assertion that it was proponents of PVP who wanted a change... who complained about anything... once the vote was started people put forward their views that pvp should be open everywhere but i dont remember a single person advancing the arguments you are claiming. |
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Alec Burke Posted Jan 18, 2014, 6:32 pm |
So that makes this pro-PvP group of yours who? You, Joel and the four other people who voted against the current PvP system? And the 66 who voted in favor of there being the possibility of PvP everywhere but there also being a flag system for those who didn't wish to engage in intercept PvP for whatever reason - those are all anti-PvPers or newbs who were fear-mongered into voting for it? I certainly recall Joel speaking up against the last vote (again, he's consistent in his position of completely opposing flags) but I seem to recall people like Serephe, Longo, Groove, Juris, Necro and others, being supportive of the vote. And they aren't people I normally associate with being opposed to pvp. That was the vote which ended the south being completely pvp open. |
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*The X Man* Posted Jan 18, 2014, 7:03 pm |
I thought you kind of looked a little bit like a Dingo
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 18, 2014, 7:49 pm |
Alec.... When you make up numbers and 'facts' it totally undermines your credibility. I suggest you search for the last several PvP polls to see an almost exactly 50% split on these issues.
Now unless you have anything factual and accurate to add I have had enough. Feel free to use this thread as your own personal misinformation and propoganda tool... Big will probably be good enough to change the heading for you. |
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*Bigspenner* Posted Jan 18, 2014, 8:36 pm |
An entertaining conversation for a while between Goat and Alec above but I believe the following would give everyone a fair slice of the action they want.
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Alec Burke Posted Jan 18, 2014, 9:02 pm |
[quote=goat starer]Alec.... When you make up numbers and 'facts' it totally undermines your credibility. I suggest you search for the last several PvP polls to see an almost exactly 50% split on these issues.[/quote]
I took the numbers directly from the last vote we had on PVP. You can go look them up yourself. It's page 4 of the subscriber's forum for me. The title is "PVP changes - vote!". |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 18, 2014, 9:10 pm |
i must admit that last vote really had me scratching my head. Team shooting in scouts instead of open pvp in the south (which was voted 50/50 - the one goat is talking about).
Hey if you dont like the way things are decided just re-word a new poll in YOUR favour! THAT the DW playerbase way! Incidentally I strongly considered shooting team mates in a morgan defense , several times I decided yea and then nay at the last min. I just cant do it, even though it was a perfect opportunity to totally fk up some enemies inthe game when all other avenues were taken away. Shooting teammates in a scout is fkin dumb, I have no idea how such a majority can vote for that garbage and yet still the same people bitching about PvP. |
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Alec Burke Posted Jan 18, 2014, 9:18 pm |
hahaha. To be fair here, though, it was Sam himself who created the last poll. I do agree about the fact it is odd that people voted for team shooting as part of the last poll. As as non-voter, I wouldn't even attempt to figure out what the thoughts were on both sides. |
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Groovelle Posted Jan 20, 2014, 12:46 am |
What are you talking about? I wasn't even talking to you. I was talking to people who wanted PVPers to get their fix with squad challenges. I don't care if the PVP flag only works in the top three towns and it's open everywhere. Does seem illogical from a viewpoint of someone who wants no part of it, but I don't hear anyone arguing about that point. If you could read, I said leave the PVP flag and make intercepts work better. That's all I said. Want to make the South open? Whatever, don't plan on going there anyway. I don't understand what making the South open accomplishes, really. Thinking of it from a newer player perspective - "Hmm, I should start trying to PVP in Badlands. Yea, that's exactly what I'm gunna do." said no one ever. But I wouldn't tell the people in the South how to run the South. Because I'm not in the South. |
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Ragnak Posted Jan 20, 2014, 4:13 am |
No, it doesn't and it hasn't. As Burke pointed out, it was implemented that way, run for some time and then put to a vote whether to keep it and its now gone the way of the dodo bird. The thing is that the solution didn't do anything for either side to be happy with. The Pro PVP player and Pro PVE player are at opposite ends and some middle ground just doesn't work in this kind of game. Half measures just haven't cut it here. My personal opinion is one that a Pro-PVP player will never be happy with DW simply because there just isn't a player base to support a healthy PVP "Stand and Deliver" type of game. If we had a hundred players active in the game at any hour with events being kicked off every minute from any town, would not the pro-pvp player be in their Nirvana? Even if they failed to intercept player A leaving BL due to a scout check, they could immediately try again when ready for Player B or Player C. PVP play sucks today because you can sit at your terminal for an hour and maybe only have a couple of events you might be eligible to hit and then its with the same few players you would group scout out of SS from later. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 20, 2014, 8:12 am |
That is also untrue... It was never set up the way suggested Here... But never let facts get in the way of opinions |
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*DoubleTap* Posted Jan 20, 2014, 4:04 pm |
Informal question for folks who are desirous of more PVP-
Where are you based? Badlands? If a lot of PVP folks are based in Badlands or points south, then the plan Goat outlined seems to make even more sense, doesn't it? I only ask because now that I'm playing a little more often, I'm moving more assets southwards. That, and this seems to make all sorts of sense, if not for the "original intent," than at least for the real-world economics of subscribers and newbies and vets and Sam and profitability. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 20, 2014, 5:38 pm |
Bl, shanty and Ss for me. Ss is there for big community events (popular PvP) | ||||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 20, 2014, 5:47 pm |
I am in ss for the casual friendly training.
If pvp was open in BL I would base in BL. |
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Ragnak Posted Jan 20, 2014, 6:26 pm |
Absolutely true but never let reality get in the way of your fantasy.....
Everything South of Gateway was PVP open no matter your flag status. Here's some links of some of the discussion at the time - thread 1 thread 2 |
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*Bigspenner* Posted Jan 20, 2014, 10:35 pm |
In PVP are we basically missing part of the problem.
Could the reason PVP isn't happening a lot be because the players who are pvp on sit around waiting for someone to ambush. If they are all waiting to intercept, who is going to be intercepted? In which case are not squad challenges the right way to do it? |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 20, 2014, 10:39 pm |
Pretty sure only BL was open...it was the only open town other than Shanty at the time. I did not test others thou...but sam only made Bl open. Also goat has seen far more changes to pvp than you have. Once upon a time there was completely open pvp with absolutely no flag. We never had so many players in the lobby as back them.
I am also sick of the made up lies that the liars believe themselves..but forgive goat for missing one of the numerous waste of time pvp changes. All were a complete waste of Sam's time. I am content to just leave it busted as I am certain no change to pvp intercepts will be satisfactory to anyone currently playing this game. The simple and complete truth is...nothing was wrong with pvp from the very first day sam rolled out this fkin game and feel very stupid for participating in fighting any change after that first one...which was a downward and decadent path we will never be able to correct. Take intercepts completely out of this game and be done with these waste of time changes and discussions. I eagerly hope that dw2 will provide meaningful pvp and sam has the guts to tell you carebears to go play another fkin hello kitty whack a mole collect the toys b.s and let us kill eachother like civilized gamers. We PLAY a GAME we do not care if our "work" in it is destroyed. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 20, 2014, 10:59 pm |
I've stayed out of this for the most part this time. but this is getting to be a big "blah blah blah" thread saying nothing (mostly).
When I joined about a year and a half ago, PvP was Open anywhere south of GW. However anything in the northern triangle was governed by the flag. From what I read, This first flag system was implemented because: Most people were based in SS due to there being more town events. Thus, most PvP players were also there. Since fewer things happened south of GW, placing a Flag system allowed the Pro-PvP players to PvP where the bulk of their gang was located. Intending to provide MORE PvP. Upon joining I was threatened and bullied in a few very ineffective ways resulting in 4 to 5 months time spent shoving Heavy Rockets into people breaches or throwing races just to red or threaten to red Veteran players when they threw races just to gun me down for fun. (ie: Ignoring the AI entirely and only chasing me!) A lot of this was done in the League races and I now realize it was intended to squash a person's point standing more than it being a vindictive Shark-Move. Most of these "rivalrys" either ended with mutual respect or a friendship. Yes some people threatened to red my gang out. repeatedly. (red them repeatedly, as well as repeatedly told me they would). But my gang was all noobs so I didn't care. Yes some people put hits on me. in one case I was hit 12 times in 2 days but took no losses and didn't even know I got hit until a week later. Those people are gone. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 20, 2014, 11:21 pm |
I consider myself Pro-PvP however there is a lot of variations in what "Pro-PvP" Players want.
One of the greatest factors steering people away from PvP is the gap in ganger skill. I understand and agree with both sides of the argument. you should be able to use your god-gangers. But if you are fighting someone training no spec noob gangers, that's terribly imbalanced even considering a skilled player's ability to use terrain to mitigate the skill gap. The current flag system of totally on or totally off means you cant be PvP on without risking an SS intercept. Which leads to another factor steering people away: the fact that many people train their newhires in SS. It is disheartening to take out 3 to 5 cars full of gangers who's combined skill at gunnery wouldn't even amount to 50% of the interceptor's gangers skill at picking his butt while driving! a 15 skill gunner vs a 280 skill gunner isn't much fun. Except maybe the joy of fighting to the death so all the loot is ruined... So you cant PvP without risking a "Gank" type encounter which many people feel, borders on griefing. This does happen. 3 newly subbed players quit over this when the flag system was changed last time. Is there a solution to the PvP Debate that EVERYONE would be happy with? I don't think so. Our likes and dislikes are quite varied. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 21, 2014, 12:16 am |
What would I feel comfortable with?
I've had a few suggestions in the past and all were met with varied amounts of either "This is brilliant" or "this is total stupidity and I'll quit if it is implemented" responses from the Pro-PvP group. so they don't make everyone happy, that's a given. But here are a few for you to mull over: 1... have a constantly running wilderness event that people can enter and exit at will with their PvP squads. Basically a persistent wilderness PvP Arena. This allows you to enter it in your "PvP gear" which could be something light or even something big. CR NOT factored into it, Enter at your own RISK! With some benefit or prize based on damage dealt, demos, blues, reds, and tabulated/reset every 4 hours or so. Sam liked this, so did a few others. (I think this planted a seed in his head for DW2 being like League of Legends since this began a debate about realtime or rapid turns in an event like this) The people who disliked it cited the fact that it would be a server hog, and that someone who had 4 hours to grind it over and over would have the highest score, or if it was averaged, then it would limit the players who would play it once they got a good score. 2... Flag each individual squad on or off. this way you could protect a training squad, but still PvP in a skilled group. this was seen as being a lot of work. Mostly disliked by the Pro-Intercept group. But liked by the Pro-Casual-PvP branch. 3... Factor Ganger skill into CR balancing. Or at least Specs. Some have called this a GR - Ganger Rating. I know Joel is against this. I know at some point it is very limiting to try to find gangers of a certain skill level (low) as well as it making things much more complicated for the interceptor. I have mixed feelings on this that have changed over time. 4... Allow "Call for Help" when outgunned or out skilled. Using this feature any Player who chose to join the event with a car. It would be limited to something maneuverable and believably a "Quick Reaction Force" type of responder. Such as limiting it to Muscles. this could lead to epic battles where many players join an event on all sides or even on their own side. |
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Groovelle Posted Jan 21, 2014, 12:46 am |
1. Would be a blast to run couriers through.
2. I don't favour as much but could work. 3. Would be interesting 4. Would be fun as hell. Imagine everyone online jumping in to an ever-escalating fight. I wouldn't PVP heavies but I'd but a couple landies in that. |