*The X Man* Posted Dec 22, 2013, 6:27 pm	I added this suggestion here from another thread to see if this is a viable solution to increase PVP activity for the player base that wants more PVP, but doesn't force it upon the player base that doesn't. I am encouraging others to make additional comments or suggestions. Then, we can present this to Sam to see if he finds it worthy to make any changes. ORIGINAL POST: *The X Man* said: Joel Autobaun said: However.  I will admit, I have lost this argument and my stubbornness has cost me to have ZERO intercept PvP for the last 1 1/2 real years playing this game.   I don't think that this is a lack from players trying, just a difficult way to engage in PVP. Other than the COE and SCL leagues, no other "Real" PVP happens anymore. I do have an idea that could change that and I believe will be acceptable to all player types. Joel Autobaun said: I am Capitulating I will now accept any goddam system to get open PvP intercepts in the normal game.  I think any travel to and fro Gateway gates to all points south should be open season with whatever stupid handicaps the community can agree on, would fix all kinds of exploits complained about in this thread.  Departures AND arrivals interceptable. Anything north of gateway still governed by the pvp flag. For this idea, the above cannot be done. The game still needs the freedom for all player types to enjoy the game style they choose to do. This means the same access to all areas of Evan under their current flag choice. For the Non-PVP players, the current flag system stays in place. This way there is no forced PVP unless they are traveling or scouting with players who have their flags on. This takes care of the needs of the Non-PVP players. Now, for PVP players with their flags "ON", just one addition to the squad page will make this work. When the "Do It" button is clicked to start your travel or scout, another window opens. It asks one question, one that you must select for the event to start. "Do You Wish To Allow Intercepts?" Clicking "NO" means the current intercept format stays in place. You will have a slight chance that you will be intercepted. This allows the squad owner to determine weather or not they wish to put their squad at risk. They may be taking new players out for training as an example, so this will reduce their chance at getting hit. Clicking YES means that anyone monitoring towns and sees your squad, they have the ability to intercept you without fail. This will allow PVP between players to happen at anytime if another player chooses to engage them. Basically, this keeps all aspects of the game the same. It just allows players who want PVP the ability to engage in PVP at anytime. Since these players know they are planning on intercepts, I am sure they will be bringing their better gear and gangers. So there would be no need for CR balancing other than the current way it is implemented now. The only thing I would suggest is that the players wanting to intercept cannot have a squad CR higher than the squad they are trying to intercept and must be within 100CR or less. This change would implement PVP into the current game system while keeping both the NONs and the PVPers happy. If this seems like a viable solution to the lingering "Lack Of" PVP problem, add your comments to build on this idea.
Joel Autobaun Posted Dec 22, 2013, 6:40 pm	Thanks. Intercept PvP has everything to do with the FACT that we are all playing in the same sandbox. No one is in their own little world. The Economy is affected by powergamers and minmaxing gaming of the trading and faction system to get great reward at nearly zero risk. Opening intercepts up for all in the south makes these ventures... risky.
*Snipe* Posted Dec 22, 2013, 7:13 pm	Totally agree. This game should have stayed full PVP on - - but in the absence of that, this system seems solid. PVP needs to come back.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 22, 2013, 7:37 pm	i agree... looks like that is settled then end of conversation lets get on with the changes
Krakhedd Posted Dec 22, 2013, 7:57 pm	Three opinions constitutes a quorum? Wow.
Krakhedd Posted Dec 22, 2013, 8:02 pm	I also seriously contend with this "we're all in the same sandbox" notion. We all play different games of Darkwind. The only right/wrong of it, is what's healthy for the community. Since I and several others here are giving a lot of time and equipment to noobs, I would make note we are doing quite a bit for the community, and to keep it strong and viable. Forced PvP-on will result in abuses (again) and noobs will be turned off to the game by it.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 22, 2013, 8:19 pm	disregard the last 2 posts... they happened after the cut off point for submissions. lets get on with it!
musashi_san Posted Dec 22, 2013, 8:32 pm	Krakhedd said: Forced PvP-on will result in abuses (again) and noobs will be turned off to the game by it. sorry krak but what are you talking about? are you aware of any actual abuses of this type? or noobs being turned off? in 20 months here i'm aware of one incident sort of kind of in that vein. i've been open pvp for a good chunk of that time and, despite trying extensively, have never succeeded in intercepting anyone on purpose. was in a group scout once that mad mike intercepted, which was handled as gentlemen by both sides and was enormously fun, and accidentally intercepted someone new-ish once and truced out because i didn't want to beat up and discourage him (my squad was a bunch of uber gangers, at least for me, in scl mercs). i think even the most hard core current player knows better than to drive people away, and your concerns about it are really unfounded. i was on that side at the beginning, and made arguments similar to yours, but really, i was wrong.
*The X Man* Posted Dec 22, 2013, 8:48 pm	Krakhedd said: I also seriously contend with this "we're all in the same sandbox" notion.  We all play different games of Darkwind.  The only right/wrong of it, is what's healthy for the community. Joel is correct in saying we all play in the same sandbox. ALL of us play within the borders of Evan, just in different ways. Krakhedd said: Since I and several others here are giving a lot of time and equipment to noobs, I would make note we are doing quite a bit for the community, and to keep it strong and viable. Under my proposal, you will still be able to do this. Krakhedd said: Forced PvP-on will result in abuses (again) and noobs will be turned off to the game by it. Again, under my proposal, this DOES NOT force PVP on anyone. It makes PVP more available to the players who wish to engage in PVP. This is a system that keeps everyone happy and without changing their play styles.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 22, 2013, 9:14 pm	If you want PVP intercepts go play scav... thats another game, in the same sandbox
Joel Autobaun Posted Dec 22, 2013, 9:55 pm	Grimm Sykes said: If you want PVP intercepts go play scav... thats another game, in the same sandbox You go play scav.  I don't have time to survive in it ..let alone pvp with 3 total players.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 22, 2013, 10:09 pm	Joel Autobaun said: Grimm Sykes said: If you want PVP intercepts go play scav... thats another game, in the same sandbox You go play scav.  I don't have time to survive in it ..let alone pvp with 3 total players. to be fair you don't have to play much in it and there are at least 8 of us! :-) but more to the point its not in the same sandbox (as juan shows he doesn't understand what you are on about again Joel). it has a very slight overlap with the Darkwind sandbox in town events and leagues but as the scav players are inevitable weaker they have very little effect on the existence or play of regular players. finally.. please dont suggest juan plays scav... the scav players are reasonable, nice, and fair. We dont need Juan.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 22, 2013, 10:27 pm	goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: Grimm Sykes said: If you want PVP intercepts go play scav... thats another game, in the same sandbox You go play scav.  I don't have time to survive in it ..let alone pvp with 3 total players. to be fair you don't have to play much in it and there are at least 8 of us! :-) but more to the point its not in the same sandbox (as juan shows he doesn't understand what you are on about again Joel). it has a very slight overlap with the Darkwind sandbox in town events and leagues but as the scav players are inevitable weaker they have very little effect on the existence or play of regular players. finally.. please dont suggest juan plays scav... the scav players are reasonable, nice, and fair. We dont need Juan. I understand exactly what he's talking about... He's upset newer players find the game easier then he did/does and he wants to beat on us for it. Seems quite clear. Just like you don't want to see me playing scav cause you don't want to play with me... I don't want to play with Joel or many of the others who just happen to want PVP. Playing against someone is the same as playing with them. It's got nothing to do with fear, I simply do not like him.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 22, 2013, 10:56 pm	i dont want you to play scav because the people there are not cheats. its a very honest version of the game but one that has a lot of exploitable holes. Thankfully nobheads have so far steered clear. I would love you to play scav because it would make you pvp open... but the plus side is outweighed by letting a snake into the game. i dont like liars... cheats... exploiters... and you embody all three why on earth would joel be bothered if it were easier for you? he is still miles ahead of where you will ever be... and if you get there he would be miles ahead of that.
*SmokeyKilla* Posted Dec 23, 2013, 12:41 am	I like the idea that any action south of GW is automatically open to PVP. Those who want to play it safe or like me don't have experienced enough gangers or equipment stay above GW. (for the time being) Those who want the better rewards and equipment travel south of GW but are open for any PVP encounter. Maybe like some other games you could tick a box saying retreat/surrender at 50% 75% loss or never. If you tick 50% loss once you have lost 50% CR you keep all your cars and gangers not demoed less weapons and cargo and safe transport to nearest town. 75% you keep remaining 25% of cars and gangers less cargo and safe transport to nearest town, or something similar. Lets face it very few people would be doing "trader runs" past GW if it was open PVP so we have to have some system in place so you dont lose everything. Maybe even a Parley system either agreed on by the players or random allowing use of 25% 50% 75% or 100% of your total CR for the PVP battle. Or maybe the attacker can only attack the same player once every day, week, 48 hrs etc.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 23, 2013, 1:02 am	goat starer said: i agree... looks like that is settled then end of conversation lets get on with the changes Yes, just like you got on with the changes to Scav. When will the first one actually be implemented?  Its been MONTHS since they were okayed.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 23, 2013, 1:12 am	goat starer said: disregard the last 2 posts... they happened after the cut off point for submissions. lets get on with it! Just like you got on with it for the Scav changes?
*Bastille* Posted Dec 23, 2013, 1:19 am	Just because changes have not come into effect does not mean they are not being listened to. Its good to hash this stuff out.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 23, 2013, 1:40 am	Ask Lost. He is the only noob who didnt quit during the time on referance.  I cant remember the other guys names.  There was a fair number who quit due to not only intercepts but to "hunting" in town events. Im sure there is a thead on it somewhere.  Not that it matters.  The people that quit had thin skins. The most likely used the "got hunted down" events as an excuse when they really just didnt like the game. musashi_san said: Krakhedd said: Forced PvP-on will result in abuses (again) and noobs will be turned off to the game by it. sorry krak but what are you talking about? are you aware of any actual abuses of this type? or noobs being turned off? in 20 months here i'm aware of one incident sort of kind of in that vein. i've been open pvp for a good chunk of that time and, despite trying extensively, have never succeeded in intercepting anyone on purpose. was in a group scout once that mad mike intercepted, which was handled as gentlemen by both sides and was enormously fun, and accidentally intercepted someone new-ish once and truced out because i didn't want to beat up and discourage him (my squad was a bunch of uber gangers, at least for me, in scl mercs). i think even the most hard core current player knows better than to drive people away, and your concerns about it are really unfounded. i was on that side at the beginning, and made arguments similar to yours, but really, i was wrong.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 23, 2013, 1:49 am	Joel Autobaun said: Grimm Sykes said: If you want PVP intercepts go play scav... thats another game, in the same sandbox You go play scav.  I don't have time to survive in it ..let alone pvp with 3 total players. I think its because me and boon play scav.  And we arent as much fun to hunt because we dont mind trashing out everything we have just to be annoying. But, no.  dont come intercept in scav because its so dang hard getting weapons!  That HMG on my Merc is more valuable than my Gang Leader!
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 23, 2013, 1:55 am	*Bastille* said: Just because changes have not come into effect does not mean they are not being listened to. Its good to hash this stuff out. Im just yanking goats chain. I think sam mentioned that he forgot how to program that part of the game and thats why the items got shelved permanently Instead we will get that DW-LOL RTS thing he is so keen on making...  Someday...
Bolt Thrower Posted Dec 23, 2013, 3:32 am	StCrispin said: Joel Autobaun said: Grimm Sykes said: If you want PVP intercepts go play scav... thats another game, in the same sandbox You go play scav.  I don't have time to survive in it ..let alone pvp with 3 total players. I think its because me and boon play scav.  And we arent as much fun to hunt because we dont mind trashing out everything we have just to be annoying. But, no.  dont come intercept in scav because its so dang hard getting weapons!  That HMG on my Merc is more valuable than my Gang Leader! The guns are nice and all, but it is really the ammo that I call "my precious".  Each and every one.
Joel Autobaun Posted Dec 23, 2013, 3:40 am	I realise there might be 8 full time players in scav. In the lobby i see (right now) ZERO scav gangs and have never seen 3 at once I dont think. How about the "normal" game gets nuked so we can all play the same game and nearly everyone is at the start in scav anyway.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 23, 2013, 4:08 am	Bolt Thrower said: The guns are nice and all, but it is really the ammo that I call "my precious".  Each and every one. We need a "Protector of Ammo" spec. Upon recieving internals the specced ganger throws himself on the ammo and takes a bullet to protect it from harm
Bolt Thrower Posted Dec 23, 2013, 4:43 am	StCrispin said: Bolt Thrower said: The guns are nice and all, but it is really the ammo that I call "my precious".  Each and every one. We need a "Protector of Ammo" spec. Upon recieving internals the specced ganger throws himself on the ammo and takes a bullet to protect it from harm Seriously, this would be awesome.  I hate going to reload and realizing it is time to run cause your extra clips got shot out the car.
*Boonwolf* Posted Dec 23, 2013, 9:54 am	The only issue I have with intercepts are 1 there always town gates and the spawn points are often advantages to one side or the other. 2 if town intercepts are not kept in check you will get town bully's who will use the bounty system exploit. 3 if there's a prick hitting every time you scout he isn't a pray you can target due to him not exiting town. Knowing how you all snoop around they would know the soft target (no risk to them) and only hit them. 4 bounty out option would be painfully expensive to a newer gang, the last one I recall was 89,000 in SS. (what determines bounty price?)
*Bastille* Posted Dec 23, 2013, 1:21 pm	The gates maps have the most varied and fair spawn points. The maps are generally better tactically for PvP. Be nice to have a change of scenery once in a while though.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 23, 2013, 3:17 pm	*Bastille* said: The gates maps have the most varied and fair spawn points. Like facing you at 45m away and blocking you from getting to any kind of covering terrain for at least 15 turns.
Grimm Sykes Posted Dec 23, 2013, 4:54 pm	When someone intercepts someone in town, from a camp, it is not on gates maps. Mad Mike had intercepted me like this last year from RCH. I wasn't who he was wanting to intercept but we figured we'd go ahead and duke it out. Point is intercepts do NOT always happen at gates.
*goat starer* Posted Dec 24, 2013, 1:47 am	StCrispin said: goat starer said: i agree... looks like that is settled then end of conversation lets get on with the changes Yes, just like you got on with the changes to Scav. When will the first one actually be implemented?  Its been MONTHS since they were okayed. The first one was implemented within days. The rest proved hard to code. Facts Crispin... Facts
*goat starer* Posted Dec 24, 2013, 1:50 am	Joel Autobaun said: I realise there might be 8 full time players in scav.  In the lobby i see (right now) ZERO scav gangs and have never seen 3 at once I dont think. How about Scav is a very European game. It doesnt appeal to a shoot it from miles away or buy it off American paradigm. It has never been big.. or will be... But amazingly .. despite the howls... It works.
*Bastille* Posted Dec 24, 2013, 1:58 am	StCrispin said: *Bastille* said: The gates maps have the most varied and fair spawn points. Like facing you at 45m away and blocking you from getting to any kind of covering terrain for at least 15 turns. Facing and distance is another thing entirely, well, mostly.
*Rev. V* Posted Dec 24, 2013, 4:49 am	We all know who can fix these things....
Bolt Thrower Posted Dec 24, 2013, 5:21 pm	Grimm Sykes said: When someone intercepts someone in town, from a camp, it is not on gates maps. Mad Mike had intercepted me like this last year from RCH. I wasn't who he was wanting to intercept but we figured we'd go ahead and duke it out. Point is intercepts do NOT always happen at gates. Snipe intercepted me at Highway to Hell.  I think we were both out of GW, so point taken.
Krakhedd Posted Jan 13, 2014, 4:33 pm	musashi_san said: Krakhedd said: Forced PvP-on will result in abuses (again) and noobs will be turned off to the game by it. sorry krak but what are you talking about? are you aware of any actual abuses of this type? or noobs being turned off? in 20 months here i'm aware of one incident sort of kind of in that vein. i've been open pvp for a good chunk of that time and, despite trying extensively, have never succeeded in intercepting anyone on purpose. was in a group scout once that mad mike intercepted, which was handled as gentlemen by both sides and was enormously fun, and accidentally intercepted someone new-ish once and truced out because i didn't want to beat up and discourage him (my squad was a bunch of uber gangers, at least for me, in scl mercs). i think even the most hard core current player knows better than to drive people away, and your concerns about it are really unfounded. i was on that side at the beginning, and made arguments similar to yours, but really, i was wrong. Only those I experienced when I was a noob. Juris intercepted me, Snipe, and Ninjamonkey.  We explained, hey two of us are relative noobs, let's truce.  No.  Ok, well then just let us run away.  No.  We had to bounty out for $500k - which was all the money I'd saved to that point and then some (Snipe and Ninja covered the entire bounty). Further, had we been forced to fight, we had even odds.  But, whereas we had muscles and Apes, Juris had an FE w/ twin TGs, and other support rigs.  The odds were even only in number of rigs; his CR was something like 1.5-2x ours.
Juris Posted Jan 13, 2014, 6:04 pm	Krakhedd said: Juris intercepted me, Snipe, and Ninjamonkey.  We explained, hey two of us are relative noobs, let's truce.  No.  Ok, well then just let us run away.  No.  We had to bounty out for $500k - which was all the money I'd saved to that point and then some (Snipe and Ninja covered the entire bounty). Further, had we been forced to fight, we had even odds.  But, whereas we had muscles and Apes, Juris had an FE w/ twin TGs, and other support rigs.  The odds were even only in number of rigs; his CR was something like 1.5-2x ours. Gawd, this again.  This has already been discussed 1) The CR was even - you looked at my squad's CR AFTER the fight - but several of those vehicles were dropped as part of CR balancing for the actual event.  Only about half my squad was in the fight. 2) Snipe paid the bounty for you and laughed about it so you didn't lose any money 3) You could've looted a FE and a laser 4) My SS guys aren't that great - that squad was not optimized for PVP because I wasn't expecting it (see below) 5) It was a random intercept - I didn't try to intercept you.  It was like being struck by lightening.  In my entire time playing I've only had 4-5 random intercepts 6) You didn't quit over it, undermining your own point
*goat starer* Posted Jan 13, 2014, 6:44 pm	You are arguing with an amorphous cloud of confusion and anger juris. It can neither reason nor comprehend. Minor details like you being right and logic mean nothing to it. Give up... Everyone who counts understands.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Jan 13, 2014, 10:10 pm	My favorite intercepts were the ones on Lost, Boon, and 2 noobs who's names I have forgotten since they quit over it and didnt resub. What I dont understand is why they pay for a sub, decide to quit, and not at least play out their remaining time trying to anger the people who led them to quit. All those subbed accounts, unused and counting dow. Suk
*SmokeyKilla* Posted Jan 13, 2014, 11:31 pm	I am all for PVP, however, it is hard for a noob to compete against guys who have 5 spec + gunners and drivers etc. Even if all the equipment/cars are equal in an encounter there is no possible way i can win against experienced players with their high spec gangers. The other day i did a scout with a vet of DW and this guy was demoing cars 150m+ out. He had to "let one through" just so i could shoot a couple of rounds. Basically a noob with 50-80 skilled gangers, one maybe 2 specs (like me) has no chance of winning. I need to get below 75m for half my shots to hit (approx). A DW Vet can sit back and basically take me out before i can even do any damage to his stuff. So as well as a CR rating we really need to have a GR rating as well (ganger rating). If we had this i would be PVPing all the time. But at the moment as it stands i cant even come close to competing with Players with high specced gangers, (not to mention the fact that they have way better stuff as well)
Joel Autobaun Posted Jan 14, 2014, 1:20 am	Krakhedd said: musashi_san said: Krakhedd said: Forced PvP-on will result in abuses (again) and noobs will be turned off to the game by it. sorry krak but what are you talking about? are you aware of any actual abuses of this type? or noobs being turned off? in 20 months here i'm aware of one incident sort of kind of in that vein. i've been open pvp for a good chunk of that time and, despite trying extensively, have never succeeded in intercepting anyone on purpose. was in a group scout once that mad mike intercepted, which was handled as gentlemen by both sides and was enormously fun, and accidentally intercepted someone new-ish once and truced out because i didn't want to beat up and discourage him (my squad was a bunch of uber gangers, at least for me, in scl mercs). i think even the most hard core current player knows better than to drive people away, and your concerns about it are really unfounded. i was on that side at the beginning, and made arguments similar to yours, but really, i was wrong. Only those I experienced when I was a noob. Juris intercepted me, Snipe, and Ninjamonkey.  We explained, hey two of us are relative noobs, let's truce.  No.  Ok, well then just let us run away.  No.  We had to bounty out for $500k - which was all the money I'd saved to that point and then some (Snipe and Ninja covered the entire bounty). Further, had we been forced to fight, we had even odds.  But, whereas we had muscles and Apes, Juris had an FE w/ twin TGs, and other support rigs.  The odds were even only in number of rigs; his CR was something like 1.5-2x ours. 100% intellectually dishonest.  Your opinion is firmly entrenched in B.S.  Proven.
*Jagged Monkey* Posted Jan 14, 2014, 1:38 am	Don't cry about unfairness. Cry about your poor tactics. Then fix them.