Camp Warfare, "Infinite" Resources, And More, The Problem, The Answer?
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FireFly Posted Feb 12, 2013, 9:00 pm |
Edit: Warning, Post is about 8000 Characters long
If reading it all my reasoning hurts your eyes to much, skip to the bold part... but that might make understand my reasons for this harder so don't blame it on me if that's the case. This will be a long complex post written with all the brilliance of my magical grammar skills, along with a possible abuse of the poor comma.  Still, If you've got any interest in either camps or PvP I'd like you to stay with me trough this post essay of mine.
Alright, as you might have noticed I've had a pretty defeatist attitude towards suggestions to make camp PvP/Warfare work, or darkwind PvP in general and this is for numerous reasons. My main reasons for these complaints is the lack of objective, reason or possibility for any gain from these fights. In a game with persistence and true value on gangers like we have here risking anything "For Fun" is shallow and downright flawed, only very few would actually do this. When we move to something like camp warfare this becomes even bigger as you're now putting a camp at risk for no possible gains whatsoever. But before we get to warfare the ways camps are setup is extremely counterproductive to fighting to begin with, as what is a camp in this game really? For the most part it is simply that, a camp someone or somepeople set that can produce and repair equipment with infinite resources, and that is about the extent of it. I don't really see there being such thing as a "Camp resources" or "Camps vehicles", sure everyone can pool vehicles to the camp but there is no real organization in that regard in any camp I've seen. It's up to every individual player to keep his vehicles and equipment and chip in when it's needed, but I've never gotten the impression of a "Camp Force". For example, Recently we had a small skirmish and in all regards it was not "Fort X attacked City C" but "Player X attacked City C, Player C+B retaliated". Why would it be like this really? A camp membership is extremely non-committal given that our camp to players active in the lobby at any given time is pretty much 1:1 and the only resource that actually matters is camp Mechs. This is were the real problem lies, Infinite production capabilities only constrained by fame and mechs and both are infinite in themselves. Still with me? Let me lay out a list of steps and I'll explain them in detail after they're all laid out. This is pretty much the bare minimum I can see to make this work, even then, it might not work at all due to the low playerbase and how entrenched people are in the old system. 1. Establish a "Resource/Territory" map of evan, with campturable outposts with their own sphere of influence and resource generation values, to build equipment in "Home base" one would need the resources from these "Outposts". The outposts should be up-gradable to provide their own defences and you should be able to hire non-player controlled defensive assets. 
All outposts are "Open PvP" and simply owning one of these outposts means that you are subject to any of the normal PvP rules, possibly with the exception of SS given we put 0 outposts in this area. This is to prevent Off-Flagged players from shipping gear in and out of camps under flag protection, merchant raiding is very much part of a war after all. All outposts are also subject to individual attack timers, just like Germany in WWII or many other nations throughout history if a "Flag" grows to large on the map of Evan without the manpower to defend it all they will find themselves extremely susceptible to attacks on multiple fronts by multiple factions, the only possible provision being that there needs to be 1-2 hours of separation between every attack on different outposts, with a max of 24 hours between attacks on the same outpost, but this is the most it would ever be allowed to go. 2. Revamp the construction/resource system for camp construction, the resources for camp production is to be acquired based on territory held on the Warmap or to be purchased from other players holding these outposts. NPC influx of these resources should be so low you could only build "bare bone" equipment like pedestrian weaponry. Special types of equipment should also be producible based on holding special parts of Evan. Examples would be along the lines of V8-Turbo engines from resources that can only be obtained from the Sarsfield area, Napalm Weaponry that can only be build with the massive oil resources from Tex, Armour breaking (heat) ammunition that can be produced with the chemical resources from Firelight or reinforced armour from the rare earths in the mountains of Morgan. The possibilities are many, and I bet quite a few PvP hesitant players would be inclined to fight for a small cut of these special ones. 3. Restrict camp membership to a single "Home Flag/Base". While you could be allowed into friendly outposts belonging to other factions you can only do so on an associate/allied provision and you can only "Belong" to one Home Camp/Base. You have to choose to be either a Junkyarder, Vaulter or a Allyečr, even if two of the camps are allied. This is so people will actually have to choose who and what they join up with, and this will GREATLY cut down on the number of effective camps in the game and this is only a positive. Added to that leading to greater participation and possibly stronger camp communities in the fact of the new requirement to fight for the right to produce goods. 4. Expand the "Vehicle Pool" system, due to the added need of vehicles and equipment for protection of outposts gangers and vehicles should be pooled in a way that ONLY the camp commander(s) can move these, and that they can only be used for outpost defence. A "Flag Vehicle" can be taken control by anyone allowed acces to do so, allowing for players to defend camps using other players equipment without actually having units on station themselves, leading to easing defence across the board if someone is missing to cover a defence. In the worst case scenario "Flag" vehicles should be able to fight under NPC control. 5. Introduce a revamped "PvP Interception" system that would allow to catch travels that have already gone past the gates, players involved with PvP should have to set "Travel Timers" for a few hours per day that can be intercepted like a camp attack can for the duration of that travel. This would make actual merchant raiding possible among other things. Finally, I'd say, drop CR balance entirely to allow rookies to "Swarm" high level vehicles and gangers. It's not fair, but it would give a large faction of rookies powerful weapon to balance out their lack of equipment in a war, the ability to effectively attrition their more experienced and equipped enemies trough sheer numbers and disregard of life, Like the soviets and Germans in WWII. I believe a system like the above would end up more unfair and constrained by a CR limit than without one. Besides, It's not like our CR balance system is actually balanced anyway, it's about as balanced as the sniper spec. I could elaborate more but If you're still with me you must have gone "IS HE NOT DONE YET!?" more than once already. So PvP crowd, Discuss! Anti-PvP crowd? I'll be expecting pitchforks and torches from you as this would effectively take away "Effective" if they are unwilling to engage in minimal PvP. While I was never the biggest proponent on forcing PvP camps is the only endgame we've got and the endgame should be high stakes. Sam, This is to much effort for to little gain, don't you think big man?  *poke*
Longest post in our forum history? This is why I normally don't try to be productive, this happens! Oh right, Bastille...
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 12, 2013, 9:59 pm |
wait, wot?!? | ||||
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Necrotech Posted Feb 12, 2013, 10:02 pm |
Barring the CR limit removal suggestion (Not in agreement), snarkiness and self platitudes.
Points 1 through 5 are interesting. More like a "King of the Hill" Especially pointed here. You belong to a camp or outpost, you cannot belong to another or just as an ambassidorial/friendly low benefits member. Essentally turning DW in a post apoc version of Axis and Allies. Many of the ideas are similiar in nature. Which also turns gangs into a commodity and resource as well. I do however like the idea that camps CAN be somewhat self sustaining, and reliant on it's members for certain things, not just trade amongst camps. Merchant raiding is decent idea, but I believe this would need further exploration and a lot of tweaking. |
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*Tinker* Posted Feb 12, 2013, 10:26 pm |
We do have limited resources, it's called fame, and i think it works fine, and is simple. What we need is mechanisms to *poke* that fame. Maybe tweak fame a bit if it's necessary | ||||
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FireFly Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:08 pm |
Lastly, extra fame is not required at all for a decently sized camp to reach around 120-130+ MR. |
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*Tinker* Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:24 pm |
That can be tweaked then, Also going by your premise that fame is unlimited, you bring up a good idea. Make fame across Evans limited, i.e. from camps, league events etc.., and you can get it from sucking it from other camps if your broke, call it vampiric camp wars. You wana hit raiders to raise your fame to minimal operating levels? you still can. But it won't do wonders for cranking out expensive items |
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Necrotech Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:27 pm |
Therein lies the core of DW economics and manufacturing schisms.
Unlimited supply of money, fame, and materials. |
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*Tinker* Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:29 pm |
But one thing is still precious, that is Time. | ||||
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Necrotech Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:50 pm |
True that
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limaechogolf Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:51 pm |
My Eyes are bleeding | ||||
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Necrotech Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:52 pm |
Good point... I'm done with garage discussions. Sry Lima
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Racing Robbie Posted Feb 13, 2013, 12:52 pm |
Perhaps the best way to handle Camp Wars would be more like town events, where the player has a choice to be involved.
A camp could then declare itself open and then be challenged/attacked by other camps. All active members of that camp then could have the choice whether to be involved in the combat. Even though I’m PVP off due to time commitments I would choose to be involved with PvP camp defences where I could. If the camp/player/owner doesn’t choose to get involved then that their camp could take a lost either in fame or production time or even both. Maybe even damage to buildings etc. But have to be careful that no-one abuses the system and just keep challenging the same camp time after time. The winner then gets a fame boost and a production boost of some sort. Could also induce blockage mission/challenge where a camp could chose to blockage another camp to try and stop stuff getting to/from the camp. The length of time that a squad could blockage would depend on fuel etc etc. If unchallenged then blockage camp stops working for that period and no supply runs could reach it – economic warfare. If the blockage camp successfully beats the blockading force then no break in production and fame boost etc etc |
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Blaer Posted Feb 14, 2013, 12:18 am |
Sadly... if you have to say this... |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 14, 2013, 12:49 am |
Bah.
Sounds like a lot of work for sam, for probably little payoff in the end as the have-nots will just bitch more. I think the same idea (a good basic idea) can be accomplished with a few "PvP tokens" Say one for SS and Elms camps - to provide MR bonus. And one for south camps to provide camp Fame. How do you get them? You win the weekly (or monthly even better) PvP match to take it for your camp. Perhaps weeklys are challenges to see who gets to challenge the champ for the monthly. You fight near the champs camp. starting 100m facing each other, no bull#### scout luck. If someone wants to run at first they run a risk, so these fights should not last for fkin ever, like PvP can. |
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 14, 2013, 1:27 am |
is there not already provision for a lot of this stuff under the current camp system? the fame is not finite, but you can surely get some awesome gains out of camp wars. | ||||
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Feb 14, 2013, 1:28 am |
So far I like ALL of this. FF and Joel especially! (Other than the "Bah" part)
I would expect the key to reduce "Have-Not Bitching" would be for there to be some way to reduce the disparity between Have's and Have-Nots without it; 1) requiring some artifical interface like Balancing, 2) making it a welfare state, or 3) requiring Juan-ish amounts of personal time investment. The progression should be such that it is still hard to be top notch with god-ly gangers and equipment, but not so hard that someone with 6 or 9 months time in the game couldnt engage in a fight with a god-vet with 5 years and expect a reasonable chance to actually win. Without handicaps forcing it. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 14, 2013, 1:44 am |
Not sure any camp war has lasted even a full week. Rare - expensive affairs and often Lose/Lose. Ritualized PvP seems semi acceptable even to the huggiest Darkwind carebear. These fights do not risk the camps themselves, their contents nor their current production. Only thing you could lose is vehicles and gangers(and you can always surrender early to keep gangers). |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 14, 2013, 1:45 am |
Did you even watch zed's camp attack with me...at all? Do you ever try to acquire information about topics you post on? |
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 14, 2013, 3:12 am |
yeah, definitely seems quite costly, but the rewards can be great too? seems I can get some great MR boosts with a few fights I have a lot to learn about camps still, and Im not going to do while at peace with everyone. |
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Ragnak Posted Feb 14, 2013, 3:42 am |
MR boosts are not a reward for a majority of camps.
The first problem is that a large number of camps are of the small SS variant which are operating near their MR levels already. The second issue is that the MR boosts are hard to manage for a camp since things like factories come active after the Thursday night weekly turnover. Tring to manage the ups and downs of MR becomes very challenging. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 14, 2013, 3:51 am |
Whatever the small elms and ss camps need then. I know it's not fame. |
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 14, 2013, 4:27 am |
can a small camp run 2 factories, or is that too much space taken up?
and fame will help get more out of less won't it? My MR increased 50% with one PvP fight. Ineed to keep that up, all the time. Then I can make good stuff. (I don't because Im a wuss, but I should) OR Potter around making same ol', same ol' Its like Morgan, it doesn't work when no one is doing it, get a few peeps in, suddenly its fun and plausible. |
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Jose Bagg Posted Feb 14, 2013, 6:29 am |
Camp tokens are a great idea. Like a travelling trophy that gives you benefits. Simple, elegant, and awesome. | ||||
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Ragnak Posted Feb 14, 2013, 7:26 am |
Elegance which has shown to be the wrong answer (tying this back to what you and others are saying in the announcements thread of the fame pool).
As Joel said above, Fame is not the answer. If fame is what camp owners really need then you are right back to the present situation. Camps today can earn fame through PVP and SCL. Camp wars are pretty nonexistant... hence these threads, and SCL is pretty dry as well. Small camps are pretty much at capacity for what they can do. Sure they may be able to eke out another mech shop or something but that is such a minor enhancement when compared to the camp output in general. Sure, the higher MR means production is geared up quicker but most things these camps are producing arent super uber rare items which all the camp participants are screaming for. So my 3.2lv8 goes from popping out every 4 days to 3 or 2 days, most of them just go into cold storage anyways. The big camps, while actually being able to use higher levels of fame, suffer from the management of that fame. Crank up a factory for a week cause you won a battle, drop out two next week cause you lost, sorry.... most camp owners just wont want that level of micro management (mind you, have a player get a loss just before Thursday turnover will probably mean damage to your buildings as the camp manager will not likely adjust to the new fame totals before turnover). The only reward which could entice some players is to tie it back to something suggested by FF. Regional specific rewards which are unique and only available to be produced in camps, e.g. the turbo v8s, etc which are slightly better than their counterparts. Note however that is only a temporary carrot, once enough of those items get produced then everyone will have them and the carrots start to rot. |
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*Tinker* Posted Feb 14, 2013, 9:32 am |
Ok and when you get your token how does it work? Is there only 1 that you defend each week/months? |
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*Tinker* Posted Feb 14, 2013, 9:47 am |
Interesting. That might be a suitable reward for small camps, I didn't know that small camps wouldn't benefit from fame, i have no experience with small camps, but let me ask you some questions. How many gangers are necessary to make a small camp work? Can 1 gang really utilizes a small camp to max potential? (i.e. a super vet) How do NPC workers help camps (small and large)? Now do small camps have to be equal to big camps? So what if they don't benefit linearly to fame as the large camps? Maybe a further step needs to be made to differentiate small from large camps. I allways liked the fast and furious series with their awesome little elite mech chop shop |
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 14, 2013, 12:09 pm |
yes, what is the purpose of a small camp. Is it to make v8s, or is it to provide something else all together? |
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*Tinker* Posted Feb 14, 2013, 1:19 pm |
If you could make turbo chargers, or even custom chassis with a built-in component, that's permanent but uses 1/2 bulk or something that would be cool, But it would be nice if there was a risk of failure.
The risk of failure could be lessened by "specialization", if all the camp does is one thing, it should be better at it then a big fancy camp that has space to do many things? |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 14, 2013, 5:34 pm |
Our game is too small and too good for bull#### new powercreep carrots to chase guys... no turbo crap.. that's just more stuff for have nots to bitch about not having.
One thing I know is ff system is a big change and layers hate big change ...t usually goes badly. Its best to not take away things from some people when making a change.... the token system is voluntary...which the player base likes. League rewards are voluntary . If people want boring status quo...in safety they can still have it and keep paying sam money and not leave the game cause the camp change fked them. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 14, 2013, 6:03 pm |
Maybe a server reset might sort every thing out ?
hey, dont shoot the messenger |
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*Brunwulf* Posted Feb 14, 2013, 6:13 pm |
That's twice in one day that I agree with something Joel has posted! What's the matter with me? NURSE!!!! |
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Ragnak Posted Feb 14, 2013, 11:41 pm |
Most small camps operate with a skilled mech force of around 10-12 with a handful of extra members who are there for fighting/driving/ or scouting skills. One gang can easily manage a camp on their own. I run El Dorado in such a fashion and quite easily. I pretty much run Foxville West the same way so a veteran gang could run two camps. NPC workers operate the factories as a generic workforce. Keep food and water on hand for them, pay them the weekly wage, then the factories keep producing. You could simply ignore small camps, make a change to the system which wont effect them or push them in the desired direction. However, in my opinion, if you write off the small camps, you basically kill any changes you might be proposing. Why would any small camp owner want change that just benefits the other guy. Wouldnt it just be fair for them to cry foul and simply state that if a camp wants fame, pony up the bucks and simply buy a sponsorship for a season, or buy all three. |
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Ragnak Posted Feb 14, 2013, 11:48 pm |
As you stated above this post, Fame is not the answer to bring small camps into your vision. Powercreep goods are all I could come up with that might entice some players to take some risks. If anyone else has any suggestions they should come forward with them. I also agree this thread and others would be about some very broad changes to the way camps and other tie-ins operate. There would be an uphill battle to make the changes really happen as some players simply do not embrace change. |
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 14, 2013, 11:50 pm |
Thats not the point though, its about ALL camps competing for the same thing (and not really losing anything, just going up and down a bit, which ain't really that bad). Not 3 camps bidding it out for 40 million bucks each year (which could still be a viable and independent option from fame fighting). | ||||
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Ragnak Posted Feb 14, 2013, 11:57 pm |
You cant make all camps compete.
Systems are already in place today which allows this to happen. Camp owners have begged members to participate in the SCL and with very little success. Voluntary PVP for camps is pretty much dead. If the answer is that you are going to force everyone to be at the table to eat your food, I am afraid most people will eat elsewhere. |
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FireFly Posted Feb 15, 2013, 12:10 am |
Glad someone gets it, Ragnak, want to be my man for speeches in the future? 
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 15, 2013, 12:31 am |
Yeah they don't eat and then they bitch about empty bellies. That's what I hate. |
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*goat starer* Posted Feb 15, 2013, 1:03 am |
yawn | ||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 15, 2013, 1:06 am |
shut up |
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FireFly Posted Feb 15, 2013, 1:11 am |
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*Tinker* Posted Feb 15, 2013, 1:21 am |
Of course you can't make them do anything, the point is if they did feel inclined the fame pool would help twist their arms, plus there would be tons of ways to help fame besides scl. At first things would be like it is now, but then people would take notice they are not in their private bubble after watching a camp win all the leagues or what not, and things my flare up by itself, this just bring the tender wood closer to the fireplace is all |
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*goat starer* Posted Feb 15, 2013, 1:24 am |
more yawning
please either shut up or start playing scav where most of these issues are completely moot and its more fun |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 15, 2013, 1:26 am |
Speaking of that - how did you manage to get YOUR way out of sam and get him to create a whole game JUST for you and a couple other people? Great use of his time for you, not so much for the rest of us. Oh thanks for splitting the playerbase more too. |
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Ragnak Posted Feb 15, 2013, 4:04 am |
You cant turn a care bear into a grizzly. It's a playstyle and that's what it is. The thing is, what the pro-pvp crowd really needs is a much larger game audience. Triple the player base and odds are we have three people like Joel. 
That would be a sight... 
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*Tinker* Posted Feb 15, 2013, 9:07 am |
You care bears want everything, You already got your PvE PARADISE not long ago, you have gone a long ways since full bore PvP, now leave a piece for us damn you! | ||||
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*goat starer* Posted Feb 15, 2013, 9:47 am |
if you remember it was supposed to be a test bed for introducing stuff.. but the unholy alliance of care bears and powergamers dont like any of the things that work ... force cooperative play ... make car farming impossible.. fix the economy.. introduce scarcity... level pvp playing fields.. etc etc you know .. work I got sam to do it by asking him nicely ... and it was not a lot of work ... and quite a few people enjoy it perhaps if you tried nicely that would help. as for "splitting the player base" you are the most antisocial gamer in the game.. never seen you do anything with other players other than use massively overpowered cars and gangers to kick people in leagues... about as divisive as you can get. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 15, 2013, 4:05 pm |
What no more yawns? Finally got a lucid response from you at least and know where you stand. Gotchya | ||||
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*goat starer* Posted Feb 15, 2013, 7:29 pm |
hey.. im just tired.. long hours at work these days 
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