Spec Balancing Argument
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Feb 9, 2013, 7:15 am |
This is just a hypotetical example of why I (for one) think the PvP "CR Balancing" is not at all sufficient for a balanced PvP engagement.
Data Phoenix with 5 armor all around = 22 CR 1xHMG mounted adds 21 CR "HMGPho-5" Has a CR of 43 Average "Medium" Scout Phoenix used in early Soloing Maximum armor Biter-ish weapons (MMG+one of the 20 space weps) "Medium Pho" has a CR of 114-118 - Situation New-ish player is soloing in SS with a pair of "Medium Pho" as is common in beginning solos to get semi-fair enemy combinations. Noob is using a 50 scout Neg1, a 55 gunner SNP1, and 2 gangers of about 35 to 45 skill with no specs Noob Squad CR about 230 Oops, he has associated with someone that is on a hit list and is thus himself targeted. The player targetting him has decided that since he has some skilled gangers, he will take a risk. Vet takes 5 "HMGPho-5" cars, each one crewed with a DD1, DR1, SNP3, RapShot2 Driver (D:101, G:101, LG:125, HG:50) and gunner similarly specced but driving insignificant to position. Vet Squad CR is 215 - CR Balancing allows this and considers it "Fair" Who do you think will win? add to this the fact that some people are PvP hunting with SNP5, RapSht2 skill 150+ gunners. and the devide becomes even greater. Personally I'd lay bets on the Vet as winner. the noob wouldnt even get into firing range before getting cored out by 5 HMGs PvP is broken. This is one example of HOW. Im PRO-PvP but in its current state it is untenable unless the opponents are of equal calibur by fate. God-Vet vs God-Vet, Noob vs Noob, intermediate vs intermedate. But anyone vs anyone ends up very one sided for the lower eschelon and demoralizes players. |
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*goat starer* Posted Feb 9, 2013, 8:02 am |
That looks like acgreat opportunity for the new guy to take down one or more serious characters. Are you suggesting anyone would risk 5 really good guys in a deathtrap like that?
Also for every vet out there in those there would be me out in a cc bpu looking for them. I only have to hit once on each car 
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Serephe Posted Feb 9, 2013, 9:09 am |
FYI a single HMG phoenix with NO armor at all is something like 53CR. I have one set up in SS to show you.
Also, it's not terribly hard to turn the tables against superior equipment/gangers. Also, also... that vet would gain absolutely nothing while risking valuable characters and he may just get hit by another vet while trying to attack the newb if he's in it for "the lulz" as well as ruining his reputation. Which as you've seen is rather important in such a small community. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:20 am |
Only if he can close to 60m so he can actually hit something. or 35m since we are talking about sub 50's vs DD1 Can a max armor pho soak up that much HMG fire closing to 35m, when the SNP3 Rap2 guy can ram 5 shots per 3 turns (x5 cars for 25 shots over 3 turns) fire down it's throat from 150m out? If I had spare gangers to test it on I'd love to playtest the theory.
No... 10 good guys. But some would. I bet Necro has the walnuts to do it! I realized this was plausable when someone who would/might try it, mentioned it as a possibility. shortly after I got my rump handed to me in a 6 vs 1 ped fight. I had 6. That showed me the power of a 250+ ganger
Thats probably why no one chances it. Because they might miss the weak target and end up in a world of embarassing hurt. This was meant as an example of the disparity that can occur under the current "Balancing" system that fails to take into account the importance of the gangers behind the guns. Specs and Skill (IMO) should be factored into the balancing equasion. IF we had a bigger community it would be simple, "Level 90 Paladins" couldnt enter a "Level 20-29" battleground/Instance. But we DONT. So that isnt a solution. That just limits everything about PvP to the point no one has any fun. I dont have a solution for the issue. I just see the issue itself and think there must BE a solution somewhere. Maybe there isnt. idk. Just tossing it out for discussion (not for the usual "lets all argue and fight" method) |
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Djihani Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:26 am |
I think that was just an extreme example to point to the greatest imbalance of the game. Anyone saying ganger skills are totally removed from game balance just likes the free difficulty level dump it gives them.
I'd be happy to say two identical vehicles with different crews are not worth the same. Both have CR 134 or whatever, but the one with good gunners and drivers does have an edge on the same vehicle with no speccers inside. Any 1-on-1 battle game, say miniature board games will balance unit point values depending on SKILL and GEAR of the fighters involved. The way DW removes ganger skill from the equation is totally absurd from a balancing point of view. Then again the single player side of the game is set up in a way that most of us might need that edge on them badguyses and I bet nobody except for Sere is prepared to let that edge go. But why have CR balancing if you don't have skill balancing? Not that I think the situation would be any better without it. The 20 buzzers on 5 newb phoenixes would prolly be a lot more common than 20 nebs on one vet bozo 
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:34 am |
You are probably right. I know a non weaponized 5/5/5/5/5/5 Pho is 22 CR and a HMG adds 21 CR to a Merc. But even at 53 thats still 4 Deathtrap Heavys with superior crews vs 2 fully armored mediums with noob crews
Given the correct terrain and spawn locations and some luck. Also assuming the "noob" is experienced enough to know how. Though on some maps this may not be an option.
As with Goat's message, thats most likely why the persons who mentioned this never attempted it. That doesnt mean the current Balancing System... er... Balances anything. even 1 car vs 1 car with equal CR, the SNP3 Rap2 will win against a skill 35 zero Spec unless either the skilled car player screws up royally or the lowbie is very very good as a player or gets a lucky break. |
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JS Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:59 am |
lol, good luck St Crispin. I agree and have argued this several times. The vocal crowd are in violent disagreement with the premise that skills need balancing in the PvP area. You've already seen some of the standard answers and replied much as I did. | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Feb 9, 2013, 1:02 pm |
Ill play test it... if you use terrain you can always either get close or get away a more likely scenario is a a vet getting ganked by a fleet of disposable cars like these with disposable gangers... only new players .. or people with spare gang places can do this... you are worried about someone with everything to lose isking it to kill a noob? never happened.. never will... but a noob (or juans new accound this week) might try it on me.. or longo.. or any vet. and any balancing that involved ganger skill would make it very very easy. |
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*Longo* Posted Feb 9, 2013, 5:36 pm |
Crispin you cry all the time about Pvp. If you want balanced Pvp join the SCL. Oh...but then you will complain that your opponent knows the land better, so you he should be handicapped.... what will be next... you need a bonus because the opponent is smarter than you?
As for Pvp in the WILD...its in the WILD. You dont need to balance anything.... why would I risk some of my gangers that have been with me for 5 REAL YEARS to capture your junk gear? You just need to realize you sux at Pvp and accept it. |
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 9, 2013, 5:48 pm |
Hello all, nice to see classic conversation still occurs here 
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*Rev. V* Posted Feb 9, 2013, 6:15 pm |
Who the hell are you? | ||||||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 9, 2013, 6:26 pm |
You know what, go ahead and do it - make Sam make PvP intercepting even more complicated.. I give a fk at this point because I see its completely useless anyway.
I do agree though - it's only fair that PvE should work the same. Also love that these suggestions ALWAYS come from people who never fight PvP in the wild. Since the game is all about seeing those very numbers go up and you guys suggest those very same number work against you - "to make it fair..." the point of the game is then what... just some grabassing in the lobby. You lawyers can have the game, I just feel bad for Sam who might code all this complicated #### in and them watch players walk away from their handicapped old man gangs because there is absolutely no more carrots to chase. If you are going to balance specs...balance skill scores(this is important), balance stats (speed weighs a lot here)...balance psi... balance every single fkin number on that character sheet. You guys never think though the can of worms you bitch about opening. |
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*goat starer* Posted Feb 9, 2013, 6:47 pm |
surely we can't put everyone else in an offroad buggy armed with a medium rocket? |
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*Tinker* Posted Feb 9, 2013, 7:20 pm |
Again I say why it's balanced now......
here it goes; It's balanced because a noob ganger is worthless, and because a skilled ganger is worth so much. Still confused? Because RISK is a huge factor in this. You spend RL years training your crew then you decide to go attack someone, are you going to RISK your A team or your B team or your C team? ALso I don't ewant to be training my guys for years then have some vet hire a bunch of new hires and roast me alive with a stack of vehicles, no thanks! We already know how unforgiving this game is ffs. |
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Necrotech Posted Feb 9, 2013, 7:50 pm |
That is a very relevant point. The is that intangible called risk.
Also it could called into question becuase now loading up of high end ganger now bumps your CR even more so to get better looting chances as well, which them only benefots those people who have a ton of high end gangers.
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JS Posted Feb 9, 2013, 7:53 pm |
Longo, come on for pete's sake, not helping. Interesting concept, so why do we need CR at all for intercepts? Why not just let the interceptor take anything he wants? I'll answer, because your comment that nothing needs to be balanced is bunk. We all think CR should be balanced at the least. Some of us think it should go further to take skills into account. Understand that many do not want this, but don't throw out baseless "you don't need to balance anything" ideas when you don't really believe it. |
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Necrotech Posted Feb 9, 2013, 7:54 pm |
Another point... how about this...?
Why have ganger with individual stats at all? Make everybody the same and generic. Which in the end still never diminishes one thing, some people.. for whatever reason grasp the tactical aspect of this game better than others. What do you do with these "winners", give them a damage handicap next? Make their guns fire every other round ?
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*Rev. V* Posted Feb 9, 2013, 8:08 pm |
St. Crispin, while I get where you are coming from, there's one variable you haven't taken into account.
How often this happens. And, seriously, it doesn't. Yeah, you got whacked, by one ganger against your 6. How many of your gangers died or got seriously injured in that encounter? I see your issues, but they aren't really valid, because this kind of thing DOESN'T HAPPEN. Sure, it possibly COULD, but the probability is? Show the replay numbers of the slaughterfests you are describing. Let's see the damage done by the way things currently run. If you can't, then all you're doing is complaining about something that isn't happening, and doesn't affect you anyway..... |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Feb 9, 2013, 9:14 pm |
Actually I rarely lose PvP matches unless opposed by gangers with huge skill disparity (ie: 280 skill sniper 5 comes to mind as memorable)
Using your logic we should make PvE in SS significantly harder. Put in some SNP5 DD2 gangs in SS instead of what we have. This is merely to illustrate an example allowed by the current balancing system to generate discussion on how to STOP DRIVING AWAY THE NEW PLAYERS through adjusting the glass ceiling-ish disparity. Insted you choose to be insulting and make personal attacks. Very classy.
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*Rev. V* Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:01 pm |
Longo is just frustrated because this keeps coming up.
You aren't the first, and you won't be the last. Folks wanted change because they weren't happy. We got change. Folks still aren't happy. There is always going to be disparity in skill levels. Why should the game be any different from real life in that regard? What is the point of spending the time to get gangers trained, if they're going to be useless because of some new nerf? It's OK to be frustrated with your present situation, but there IS a solution. Train your gangers up. I know that's probably not what you want to hear, but that IS the solution. You outline POSSIBLE scenarios where new people could get slammed, but are ignoring the PROBABILITY of that actually happening. I've been here over 2 years, do you know how many new gangs have gotten slaughtered by vets fielding ubergangers? None. In my time here I have seen LOTS of complaining by folks who are upset because it COULD happen. But it never DOES. And folks who are hell bent on trying to have things changed always seem to overlook that. That's why I asked to see some replays where it's happening. You're not going to be able to put any up, because of a gaping flaw in your argument- THEY_ DO_NOT_EXIST. Now, in all fairness, I will say that there WERE instances in the past where this was a issue, this was before my time. These people got banned. (Hell, Darth is back now, which I happen to think is pretty cool.) IF there WERE issues, they would be addressed. And if you step back and really look at what you're asking for, it doesn't fit into the post-apocalyptic theme. "Er, um...Excuse me, Lord Humongous? Look, I know this is the wasteland and all, and it's a rather harsh place, people dying, eating dog food from cans and all, but this? This all doesn't seem rather fair, your gang is quite overpowering, and quite frankly, you are driving people away... Any chance of you toning it down a bit?" What do you think this guy is gonna say? 
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:03 pm |
*REV* you are correct. It doesnt happen. Its merely an extreme example to illustrate the point. Someone mught try it now but there really isnt any benefit to it. Ive seen low CR high skill situations occur in arenas (not to me). And my experience with disparity has been in Paintball games so im not bringing this up out of any anguish over some loss. My losses are almost always from my own mistakes or from my gangers accidentally shooting eachother in the head.
The point of bringing this up isnt about me. The only wilderness PvP I have engaged in was a pretty close fight with no losses. I would have won if krak hadnt demoed. My Ped would have cored out Snipe's V8 then Melee demoed Checkers! 
I just hate when a new guy says to me that they are dissapointed that they subbed after their first lopsided PvP evperience. The weakness of this game is our low player population (IMO). Seeing it shrink is not what I want to see. And dont say "worry about YOUR gang, not player pop or bringing in new players" because Sam has said in the past that we should all think about player retention and such. |
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*Rev. V* Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:12 pm |
Yes, but he has ALSO said that he accepts the fact that 90% of the people who try DW will not stick around.
It's a hard game! There's no resurrection, folks get old and kick off, get addicted to drugs, can die in any number of gruesome ways. And that is what makes DW what it is. Any new player having issues is MORE than welcome to bend the ear of a marshal about it. That's our job. If we think there really is an issue, it will be addressed, in one way or another. But things WILL be lopsided at times, that's just the way it is. Did the disappointed new player have any gangers slaughtered in that PVP instance you mentioned? If not, then where is the issue? |
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*Rev. V* Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:33 pm |
I really think I have THE solution though, but it will never happen.
Once a year, when this comes up, as it always does, Sam should say- "Alright, enough. Free for all time. At 00:00:00 I am implementing a DW save point. The next 48 RL hours will not "exist". Interception chances have increased by 50%, and PVP flags will ALL be set to ON. After 48 hours, the server will reset and everything will be as it was. There are NO RULES for the next 48 hours, you all can do whatever the hell you want. Don't bother PMing me with anything other than a bug report. If you have an issue with someone not playing nice, take it up with a marshal. Unless it WAS a marshal who was being naughty. In that case, um, well, good luck with that...." THEN folks could see how bad it COULD be (and it WOULD be BRUTAL, make no mistake about it...) , and realize that things aren't so bad right now after all!!!! Hey, a guy can dream, right? |
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Serephe Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:54 pm |
Do this, but don't have a time limit on it.
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FireFly Posted Feb 9, 2013, 10:56 pm |
Only if you remove CR limits
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:07 pm |
Generally someone consoles the disenchanted. Im sure those of us still here all went through it ourselves. At some point it simple becomes a "dont bring something unless you intend to lose it or him or whatever". Or you chalk it up as "oh well"
On a side note, Joel has the closest response to why the balancing of Spec is not involved. The added complication. Thank you Joel. I know we tend to not get along but I do value your insight and experience. It is a refreshing counterpoint where most only involve "you suck" or "it wont happen" or some other non-quantifiable aspect. For me, I dont wilderness PvP since I gain nothing from a sucess since anything my gang needs can be bought. I dont see any incentive to it. |
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Serephe Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:15 pm |
The only thing I've ever gone through was getting bored with the game from time to time.
Any other trials I've gone through have meant nothing because, simply, it is a game.
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Necrotech Posted Feb 9, 2013, 11:53 pm |
Classic.... just classic.... ROFLMAO
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Feb 10, 2013, 12:18 am |
Why does he not have a tan? That little flower warlord would be busy looking for his "my little pony SPF15" before he caused enough trouble that anyone would ask him to balance his CR.
Plus I bet that mask gets hot. Lord Humongus: anyone got a diet cola? It so hot. Plus im watching my weight. Do I look fat in this neck brace? |
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Djihani Posted Feb 10, 2013, 1:41 pm |
Hey! Don't scare them raiders away! Then we'll HAVE to PVP
Chrome, lepperd patterns, leather tights, bare nippels, iron masks and spikes and no buttock pants are always going to be HOT in post apo
They tried balancing Max you know... and that didn't work out quite right Guess we need our little heroes. Just sucks being on the weaker end - Think the paint gun nerf happened back when I was in some BL camp and the Vault rolled over usses without even blinking an eye. I've always had a BPU set up in Tex for revenge, had a few gangers rot there up to 5-6 specs with no scouting. Although I don't even remember which bored vets did the crushing.
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*Brunwulf* Posted Feb 10, 2013, 4:59 pm |
+1000 REV's above is the best comment I have seen in this game! How about this for an 'out there' idea. Everyone stop gassin, choose your side and start getting on with it! See Ya'll out there, Cheers, Brun. |
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 10, 2013, 9:32 pm |
Less balancing = a more realistic game environment. Lifes not fair. No one here is going to beat noobs down all day with uber skill guys (so I guess one could argue that we are all to nice to play a Post Apoc game). But if you want to get to the top, be prepared to learn what you need to. |
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theHumungous Posted Feb 11, 2013, 5:34 pm |
I do believe the spec bit has been answered.
You can't balance time invested between players. A player who has better characters invested TIME into them. If a player decides to use one of these against a new player, he risks much more than his vehicles. Take, for instance, a PVP battle I participated in against a camp. I was outgunned, outskilled, out-scouted. I expected to lose, but there was that small chance that I'd kill or maim a high-spec character. I nearly did too, as one of the two players I was against got a little excited and outpaced his support. Luckily for him, he was able to reposition his vehicle. They risked quite a bit of time invested. More time in ONE of their characters than all of the 'refugees' that I used. If I had managed to take one of them out (or even significantly injure one) they would have lost. You can't balance that, though I understand the desire. |
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*Rev. V* Posted Feb 11, 2013, 6:03 pm |
Nicely put....for a guy in a mask! 
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FireFly Posted Feb 11, 2013, 6:15 pm |
For what it's worth, CR balancing is one of the reasons PvP is stupid, imo... It's not quite the same as other games for sure but the fact that PvP encounters/wars are "Balanced" is part of the problem, the other part is that they are pointless per those other threads 
I'm sure I'm not the only one here that played EVE online... That game sure has no cr balance, my corp, we got totally crushed by some Russian twits, good times, haha
Balance EVERYTHING regarding events or balance Nothing, no middle ground will likely ever play well. |
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*Tinker* Posted Feb 11, 2013, 6:30 pm |
Exactly! Take for instance the attack on the Alley yesterday. It looked like Joel was going to win hands down through the whole event, UNTIL the last 5 rounds when a couple flashes with HFF manage to light his TT on fire, and he looses one of the most talented gangers i have ever seen. She was worth maybe 4 times the combined skills of the 4 noobs he killed. He lost, and the camp took some damage. |
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Blaer Posted Feb 12, 2013, 3:52 am |
Hmm... PvP... I've heard of that... it's pointless isn't it?
I had once considered gearing my normie gang up to be "raiders" friendly, and just attack every scout that went out.. "play the bad guy" as it were... but there's no bad guy place to "live"... all the towns are civ (so where these raider traders are going to and from boggled my nuts) and the camps are all so "disconnected" that you couldn't intercept FROM them... If something were remedied for THIS first, then sure, I'd be all over PvP, and yard all the limits right out of it... when you run from me with your big tough scary SUV with Tail mounted weapons I WON'T follow you... I'll let you go... as it should be... and if you all park up on a hill, or in line, and MY CGLs start tearing your unit apart...(I don't really know why I'm spouting off like this... I just think I'm displeased with how the NPCs are treated... poor bastards....) |
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*Bastille* Posted Feb 12, 2013, 4:38 am |
a Raider town is SS, is GW, is Texan, is BL, where the big shipments come in.
Camps are home base. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Feb 12, 2013, 6:32 am |
This I like. Each player gets a roving camp. Maybe even small teams of players share it. But we dont live IN town. If we choose to live in towns the cost is Horrendous! Whats IRL costs? $70 a night in a motel (or more) which means if I put my 53 gangers in public lodging I pay 3710 a night which is $111,300 a month (1 real life week) for lodging. Food IRL, $15 a person per meal ($71,550 for my gang) at a midrange priced establishment. more at better places or for higher ranked gangers. So right there we are looking at nearly 200k per real week. And we havent even looked at car storage or parking... There is your incentive for piracy. add to that the ability to capture enemy Peds that u KO in combat and torture information out of them (as happened in real pirate actions). "When is the next food shipment coming into SS? Talk!" I actually thought thats what scav was. Bad guy DW. where we got to prey on normie DW. Till I played it and found out it wasnt. |
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*Rev. V* Posted Feb 12, 2013, 8:14 am |
Roving camp, shmoving camp.....
Get a real camp. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding soooo much that I will personally pony up a half million dollars as seed money to get this started. Because I think a "raider" camp in the SS area for "bad guys" to scout from would be FLIPPING AWESOME!!!!!!! And in my honest opinion, I think you might see other donations roll in from other folks too, simply because this kind of thing would make things interesting. Running a camp is a PITA though. Be aware of this. I know, I did it for a while... Anyway, the catch- (You KNEW there was gonna be one!!!) You guys get 3 RL months to get your feet under you while you have your PVP flag off. After THAT, it HAS to be ON. But if you guys can get a group together that actually wants to do this, as I said, I will throw money at this effort. Just because. |
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Serephe Posted Feb 12, 2013, 8:39 am |
I would be interested in running a pirate camp. Unfortunately, I don't believe it's possible for me to attack anyone from a camp. Which is the reason I don't own a camp. What do I need with production facilities?
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Feb 12, 2013, 8:51 am |
only half a mil? what, dont the nuns have booming business? you poor? sheesh!
j/k I'd pop a 1/2 mil into the pot too if such a thing could be coded into the game so that the camp was basically at war with SS itself. as long as it wasnt the uber-vets vs the rest of us... maybe only the poorest weakest gangs could be allowed into it so it was more like real desperate pirates!
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*Rev. V* Posted Feb 12, 2013, 9:06 am |
Ha, you think I'm rich?
That start money would be roughly about 1/4 or so of my total gang funds. Seriously. "as long as it wasnt the uber-vets vs the rest of us... " It would be up to a point, which is also why I said you'd get 3 months without PvP. After that, yep, they'd come knocking. But you have to take one VERY important thing into account- They have NOTHING to gain by breaking their new toy. You guys, on the other hand, have EVERYTHING to gain by fighting them off. Search your feelings, you know them to be true.....
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theHumungous Posted Feb 14, 2013, 5:00 pm |
I'm completely behind a pirate gang CAMP (edited) that will allow intercepts. It ought to be between-ish Gateway and Somerset and be able to intercept either.
Also, after the 3 months, the non-members would have finally figured out where all of the attacks are coming from and be able to mount a series of attacks from their own bases. If the pirate camp falls (and it was enjoyable) we could all do it again with a NEW pirate camp based elsewhere. Player-driven content is the BEST content. (I'd certainly re-sub for this type of thing, if I can get it to run on my Mac again... ) Also, players wanting to JOIN the "adversary camp" should be privateer, renegade, raider, slaver, etc. Not Merchant or Civ, etc. |
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Necrotech Posted Feb 14, 2013, 6:19 pm |
I would love to do this....
"Player squad here" vs The Roadkill Ninjas.. *load into the event, player(s) set placement like its a standard raider event.* "Hey, wait, what ? Those aren't Roadkill Ninjas.. Oh Hell!"
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