If you were going to change the economics..., ... what would you do?
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*Ninesticks* Posted Jan 12, 2013, 1:50 pm |
As per the title. | ||||||
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Groove Champion Posted Jan 12, 2013, 11:33 pm |
All I can say is that I'd scrap the current model just for the sake of trying something else.
In the end, I don't think there really is a way to make a video game economy that won't eventually degenerate into what Dark Wind's economy is now. But since we're on the topic... I'd incorporate bulk goods into gang survival and equipment maintenance to make bulk trade more than a buy-here-ship-there-for-profit grindfest. I'd also reverse the current NPC market values so that better prices are given in towns that have a bad NPC market and tougher NPC opposition in the wild, while keeping the "start town"'s economy just barely viable enough to sustain a small gang. That way veteran players would be encouraged to try their luck in tougher, more rewarding towns outside the start area. |
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Serephe Posted Jan 13, 2013, 10:12 am |
The economy in EVE is pretty interesting, but in the end it only works because of the number of players contributing to it.
I'd just like to see the scav system go in. People could use scrap metal or something as "cash" if they really needed it. |
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Groove Champion Posted Jan 13, 2013, 10:56 am |
... really needed it, or preferred to forgo the local economy? I'd like to see an option to become a self-sufficient scavenger, who might not be able to acquire the top gear, but would be able to survive on scrap, CPs, and other bulk (food water) based on the gang's skills (mech, scouting, 1st aid maybe?) Maybe different factions could offer a different range of limited services? For example civs could have access to food/water, but not mechs. DR Mafia could have access to mechs but not food/water. Raiders could have limited access to everything. Just quick examples of possibilities; I think it could make the faction system more dynamic, but also more prominent. |
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Serephe Posted Jan 13, 2013, 11:32 am |
Sorry, I meant that if there was no "cash" in the game then players would probably use something else as cash. An item that exists in game, perhaps. Scrap metal was just an example. | ||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 13, 2013, 4:44 pm |
Remove cash... The barter economy in scav works fine... Bit of balancing and you have a game that is really unique | ||||||
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Blaer Posted Jan 18, 2013, 2:05 am |
I was thinking... and bear with me, I'm gonna blather...
And before I delve into it.. I'm Scav... if you normies never did this I'd not give (Sorry) 
I don't think (and this is scav minded but w/e) that there should be ANY city other than SS... Every other city is actually a "Camp"... and they all have their own little political entities (don't ask me for a political map yet cause I'm just spewin) But where Elms was would still BE Elms... but there's no City events... and it's Excellent for water cause that's what it's supposed to be... but ALL people there need defend it (Like Morgan?) and those who didn't participate are first to take damage? all mechs present add to the mech pool? (can't have 12 million chassis if ya don't have the means to take care of them...) How to RUN them would be difficult, but this is sorta how I'm seeing it at the moment... (which is why I put it out there to get a second third and twelfth opinion...)
Sorry, I hope this is kinda where this was a viable place to say this... it's been rambling around in my head and I need to get it down for clarity, and confirmation that I'm not totally mental.... |
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Groove Champion Posted Jan 18, 2013, 10:26 am |
I'd have to say that's an idea for a game with a much bigger player base, Blaer. It's a good idea, but it wouldn't fly because so few players would actually take care in the town defense events on a regular basis. Also, the consequences of a failed town defense being quite harsh, if the community were ever to lull, these frustrating penalties would only precipitate the game's decline. | ||||||
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Juris Posted Jan 18, 2013, 9:02 pm |
Not in favor of getting rid of cash just making it harder to get. Nothing should as profitable as leagues or town events (except possibly escort missions which are hard as hell). Salvage value from scouting should be reduced severely.
When a gang starts making millions I think it's pretty laughable that your guys don't start demanding more money. At the very least your gang leader should demand 1/5 of the money and live on a yacht in EL lol |
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Serephe Posted Jan 18, 2013, 9:39 pm |
Gang members that earn alot of money should want more out of life than to roll around in a rusty old apache hunting pirates day after day. 
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Blaer Posted Jan 18, 2013, 10:07 pm |
I get that... and I have more ideas to clean up that verbal/text spew I laid out for all... just needed to get it outta my head to look at to refine it...
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*Tinker* Posted Jan 18, 2013, 10:10 pm |
If cash was still in I'd nerf the hell out of the player market, meaning put a cap on the sellers' prices, with a bunch of other variables that could raise or lower it, i.e. town rep, local leadership, town under constant pirate attacks or not.
I would remove the central bank we have, and need to have the cash in the town it's needed, meaning you have to drive it around from town to town. If it was none-cashed (or even if it is) I'd make a slew of other transportable items, that can be crafted together to make more items. If you have enough items, then gangs can survive on different types while differentiating themselves from other players. |
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Vroomhoff Posted Jan 29, 2013, 1:32 pm |
There are a couple of good suggestions here..
How about towns have a tax rate and the income that a town makes on taxes gets used for security or race sponsorship or some other visible use? How about a player-based casino? Lottery? Non-scav players should be able to use their own mechanics and materials for repairs. Players should be able to sell their daily mech points to the town or in-service to other players. I agree that gang members should charge more, the more skill they have. Add a "loyalty" trait to characters and the lower their loyalty, the more they charge the gang for their services. Add ped scouting! Add some kind of system that allows you passively earn money (for example, create a policy that allows you to sell 50% of your mech points on a daily basis). |
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Jose Bagg Posted Jan 29, 2013, 8:47 pm |
If you truly want a viable economy, just base it in reality and the let it go and it will stabliize all by itself.
Step 1. Limit the cash supply. If the world had a finite supply of cash, then values of items would realistically reflect the supply and demand of the player base. After that, just leave it alone and watch. Subltle actions can be taken to correct the economy from time to time. Plus, the central bank idea is a great idea. Cash should be an actual good that you have to carry with you from place to place. Every time you red a guy, you take whats in his wallet. And if you capture the magic lorry, BINGO. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 29, 2013, 9:06 pm |
or just remove cash and watch it work.. |
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Jose Bagg Posted Jan 30, 2013, 12:49 am |
Not a bad idea, but you would have to create new game mechanics to give value to many of the goods. What is the point of scrap metal for instance? |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 30, 2013, 7:53 am |
Scrap is one of the most valuable things in scav. Used to repair chassis and armour. To run a armour you need vast amounts. |
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Blaer Posted Jan 31, 2013, 12:54 am |
Make each town really a cluster of camps...
Meaning I have MY building there (abstractly, it doesn't show on the map) and I must keep all my gear in it, like a camp, so no free storage at towns... Also any repairs I want done are based on the amount of mech points I can generate in town... Eliminate all town events except for ANCs, and "bring your own vehicle" events... Only supply MG ammo, Fuel, Scrap and Car Parts, as prizes... ever... Have "Space Rates" based on affiliation... IE, if you're Raider friendly in a civ town/cluster, you're forced to pay X amount of (something actually semi-rare) whereas if you're in a Raider cluster, you're not charged anything above the standard maintenance work to keep your buildings alive Wipe the "current" affiliations of towns... spread the affiliations around... With them ALL being Civ, and them not PREVENTING you from living there, it's absurd... Yeah, I'm totally a Raider, got all my cars painted up like it to... where? oh they're all there in the town garage, y'know... I let the Civs watch them for me :/ Again, this is all with scav in mind... |
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Ragnak Posted Jan 31, 2013, 6:53 am |
I think we are dancing around the solution. The best way to handle economics in the new system is to make the medium of transactions to be tangible.
If a town wants to trade on a basis of what scrap represents, then that works because scrap is defined as an object in the game, it has weight, it takes up bulk. If you want bottlecaps, great. Define it as a cargo item and give it a weight and bulk. Gold bars, cool same as above. Different towns with different currencies, things get interesting. You the rich man in the game with a billion dollars of caps in town A might still mean your just a pauper in town B where you have no local currency. Better yet, upkeep of assets in towns should be paid in those towns. Your garaged goods and people in town B might now be at risk cause you ran out of the local currency there. |
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*Rev. V* Posted Jan 31, 2013, 8:27 am |
I think if Sam finally let me have the brother I've been wanting for years, a lot of the excess cash would drop out of the economy and you would all like things a lot more.
So, pony up that excess cash that is messing up the way the game works, and we'll start a fundraiser so I can buy that building!!!!!!! It's for the good of DW....... 
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*Tinker* Posted Jan 31, 2013, 9:55 pm |
This is great for scav, if norm could b that way and with as many players we have now, i bet it would work. heck I bet scav the way it is now would work with 20 active players. |
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*goat starer* Posted Jan 31, 2013, 10:07 pm |
scav would easily work with 20 active players.... it is working pretty well with 4 or 5
I am trading regularly with Blaer. jar, tonic.... when GM returns we will be a whole game! bottom line is this. lots of people got disheartened by it (mainly because of water) with players in the game water is not an issue (i have hundreds of the stuff)... Its a better economic model for the game.. if it had been there from the strat and beta run properly sam would have created a unique economic model for a mmorpg and he would be a legend (instead of just renowned :-)) |
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Karz Master Posted Feb 20, 2013, 4:18 pm |
Path of Exile has a very functional and balanced barter trade economy. Basically, it does away with the traditional gold system. Instead, mobs drop a variety of orbs from time to time when killed. These orbs, which operate as in-game currency, let players modify/craft their equipment to their specifications, and are a one-off use, so inflation is controlled. I think it'd be nice if Darkwind 2 were to adopt a system like that. Let hauler vehicles drop stuff on varying frequencies that are practical and are one-off uses, with reasonable drop rates, thus forcing players to decide between using or trading them. Another thing Path of Exile does right is that NPC vendors sell rarer orbs too, but they demand other equally rare orbs of higher quantities for that one single unit of orb you're purchasing. They also don't sell rare gear, so at higher levels, you either have to wait for them to drop from mobs, or craft them yourself. In fact, the economy in POE doesn't discourage players from playing by themselves, so you can play the game until you're at the endgame without ever trading with others. However, the benefit of barter trading is always there, simply because of comparative advantage. You'll usually find yourself with orbs you don't need, but you may need other orbs, or even rare gear or maps (endgame content) that catch your fancy. In that case, both you and the other party stand to gain from each other. |
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*goat starer* Posted Feb 20, 2013, 5:02 pm |
'orbs' in scav are car parts and scrap and ammo
one off use needed to repair your cars and fight every now and then you will find a high value 'orb' like hgg ammo even as a newish player... you can then swap it with a vet for piles of mg ammo. all the 'orbs' you need are in the game already |
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Karz Master Posted Feb 20, 2013, 7:01 pm |
Shows how long I haven't touched Scav... and Darkwind 
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*goat starer* Posted Feb 20, 2013, 7:18 pm |
well come back... you are missed |
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4saken Posted Feb 24, 2013, 7:16 am |
This the most important thing. The pay rates for salvage are way too high. I can easily get $17k for a car that I have shot up. I am even paid for shot up tires. If someone can recover mint parts (engines, weapons, etc) that's fine but the rest should be treated as junk or close to it. And the economy here does not seem to be as affected by supply and demand as I would think. I'm sure there are plenty of other economic models to look at. Of course here we have an MMO and the only option is forwards, so compromises must be made. |
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Doc Death Posted Feb 24, 2013, 3:41 pm |
Lets not get carried away....if a move to the scavenger type
model of the game was so popular we would have far more active people playing scav and we don't. Sometimes you don't have to change what you have when it is played and enjoyed the way it is by the majority. |
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Tallus Posted Oct 5, 2014, 10:06 pm |
I've always been interested in coding the market model from metagaming's old game Trailblazer (a Costikyan design.). Basically it presented the player with a range of different-shaped demand curves for different items, random external shocks to these curves, and ain't internal mechanism to reprise items based on how well players satisfied/saturated demand. | ||||||
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Oct 5, 2014, 11:49 pm |
I was about to say I already made NUMEROUS suggestions but then I noticed this thread is almost 2 years old... Lol |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 6, 2014, 6:50 am |
Why does that matter? good suggestions are ed good suggestions however old they are. | ||||||
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*sam* Posted Oct 6, 2014, 8:16 am |
do you have any more details on this? |
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Tallus Posted Oct 7, 2014, 4:45 pm |
I haven't played in about 20 years, but I have PDFs of the game... I'll take another look.
Interesting thing was, there was a whole range of commodities . Some of them had a fairly flat demand curve, meaning you could dump a tanker/freighter full of them and get a good payoff, but the unit price was generally low. Others had a higher but more steeply sloped demand curve, which meant you'd get a nice return from a 'pho' (or Corvette run) but drop 1k units on Alpha centauri and the revenue would turn out pretty disappointing. I wasn't much more than a teenager when I was kicking the game around -- and pre Econ, I had no idea what a demand curve was -- so I didn't manage/have the patience/have the intellectual tools to disassemble the game's economic model, but I'd be interested to do it now. I'd love to see a similar model for DW, especially because the piracy/'demand shock' elements of the game are already -- or potentially -- endogenous to the game. |