FireFly Posted Dec 4, 2012, 2:31 pm	Serephe said: I'm Swedish remember? Give me the bloody Impreza already  Hell, we even have winter tracks now  Sadly they'd be slow in this game as it doesn't model uber(twin)turbo engines and bigger is always better
*Tinker* Posted Dec 4, 2012, 7:48 pm	why don't we have turbos and stuff again?
Serephe Posted Dec 5, 2012, 1:16 am	Simplification of design.
FireFly Posted Dec 5, 2012, 2:14 am	In retrospect... a sad decision There's a reason rally cars carry small engines after all...
PvtParty Posted Dec 5, 2012, 8:34 am	FireFly said: There's a reason rally cars carry small engines after all... Yes, rules! Seriously, I'm a little surprised there are no turbos in the game, but I guess the nearest we have is the rotary versions of certain engines. Introducing the turbo lag into the game may have been one reason they were left out.
Racing Robbie Posted Dec 5, 2012, 9:41 am	First thing that springs to mind then is Superchargers - no lag with them............ What was the famous Bentley from pre-war period - 7L supercharged, think that meets the bigger and better criteria
*Bastille* Posted Dec 5, 2012, 10:35 am	yeah, why not have superchargers. adds to engine bulk automatically making any engine exposed.
*sam* Posted Dec 5, 2012, 10:37 am	I don't mind adding stuff such as engine mods, it wouldn't be too hard. Maybe someone (RC?) could put together a proposal?
*Bastille* Posted Dec 5, 2012, 10:39 am	Come on everyone... To The RC!!
Doc Death Posted Dec 5, 2012, 12:38 pm	RC ???? To the Rat Cave ???
*Rev. V* Posted Dec 5, 2012, 1:12 pm	I'd like a V8 thats between 3.2 and 5.... I'd also like a nicely tuned V6 in the game, but I'm not holding my breath... these aren't really MODS, but I figured I'd just throw that out there. Oh, and I want my own brothel. Sam, how much to buy a building? I need to know so I can start planning a "bake sale" to raise funds.
*SirLatte* Posted Dec 5, 2012, 1:45 pm	Your Nuns are welcome at Sirlattes Church Of Raiders anytime... after they shower of course.
FireFly Posted Dec 5, 2012, 2:20 pm	*sam* said: I don't mind adding stuff such as engine mods, it wouldn't be too hard. Maybe someone (RC?) could put together a proposal? But could this be done without breaking the current "bigger is better" how engine currently work? Anyway, just don't make it more powerful, turbo engines should have more acceleration, but not necessarily more top speed. Hell, for fun, make a twin-turbo 2l engine for compacts and lightweight cars, crazy acceleration but would lose out to the heavier ones on long stretches maybe?  Actually, is it possible to replicate turbo lag without to much effort in the game? Maybe something as simple as "50% power for the first/second turn of acceleration"?
DieselCougar Posted Dec 5, 2012, 5:45 pm	The amount of "lag" to my diesel is barely noticeable at all, not worth the effort in my opinion to implement into game design.(The real problem is emissions standards.) I still miss the jet engine sound of my old one though when I hammered into it hard. Engines don't need turbos, so if I was doing it I would make a turbo another item completely, perhaps using camps to add/remove them from engines. They could have a tiny/small/normal/large versions, which ones fit depend on the chassis? Rev, you mean something like my 4.0 V6 I've got in my Mazda B4000(Ford Ranger) and my '09 Mustang? I guess I just kinda assumed that 4L and above was V6s.
*Jagged Monkey* Posted Dec 5, 2012, 9:31 pm	Why don't we just have Headers, Holly four barrel carbs, and blowers?
Serephe Posted Dec 5, 2012, 9:40 pm	Why can't we design our own engines and chassis from scratch like in Automation?
*Bastille* Posted Dec 6, 2012, 3:19 am	NOOOOOO! I will be spending all day designing my engine then finding it has a flat spot at 5000 RPM, max hp at 7000 rpm and torque rolls off at 4000 rpm
Serephe Posted Dec 6, 2012, 4:39 am	I know right? In all seriousness though, I'd like to see turbo/superchargers in the game. Maybe as an item that takes up bulk and a front weapon slot. 20-40-60-80 bulk versions, based for 2L 4L 5L 7L maybe. Using an oversized mod causing engine damage or maybe having a chance to completely kill the engine. Could be a cool way to add power to some of the lower end cars to make them competetive against the faster ones if done right.
*Bastille* Posted Dec 6, 2012, 4:58 am	Multiple items (4 types of supercharger, 4 types of TC), or on a percentage base maybe? A supercharger adds 10% bulk and power I was thinking automatically exposed so there is some simple negative, not that that is really needed. Maybe that defeats the purpose as you would just use the oversized engine.
*Rev. V* Posted Dec 6, 2012, 1:53 pm	"Rev, you mean something like my 4.0 V6 I've got in my Mazda B4000(Ford Ranger) and my '09 Mustang? I guess I just kinda assumed that 4L and above was V6s. " I dunno...sorta? I learned long ago to NEVER think about DW engines in RL terms. The BIGGEST V8 we have is a 302. We have killer Mopars (Challengers, Chargers, Roadrunners, Barracudas)in-game, but NO HEMI'S!!!!!!!!!! I want a Hemi'Cuda skinned Moray, WITH A HEMI! Anyway, I was thinking more along the lines of the 3.2LV8/4L engine differences when I wrote that. An "in-game" V6 might be a smaller bulk, yet more powerful (and way more expensive) version of something in the 3L power range, but with a bulk of around 50. And a V8 in the 6-ish range with a bulk of around 110 (or whatever bulk it would need to JUST keep it under the exposed range for most muscles) would probably be pretty cool..... Again, you have to keep in-game mechanics in mind...RL examples don't work The biggest engine a Sunrise can take is 108....But Eatons, DeVilles and Cougars can fit a an engine from the 150 to almost 170 range...
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Dec 6, 2012, 2:20 pm	Numbers would have to be tossed around a bit. A lot. It may be a good idea, before approaching engine mods, to revisit the current engine spacial restrictions and limits. I'll point to the Fiftyseven as the most glaring example of that issue.
*sam* Posted Dec 6, 2012, 4:20 pm	Serephe said: I know right? In all seriousness though, I'd like to see turbo/superchargers in the game. Maybe as an item that takes up bulk and a front weapon slot. 20-40-60-80 bulk versions, based for 2L 4L 5L 7L maybe. Using an oversized mod causing engine damage or maybe having a chance to completely kill the engine. Could be a cool way to add power to some of the lower end cars to make them competetive against the faster ones if done right. Yes, putting them in as 'weapons' would be a nice way to do it, and would be a good game-balancing factor too
Necrotech Posted Dec 6, 2012, 5:06 pm	*JeeTeeOh* said: Numbers would have to be tossed around a bit. A lot. It may be a good idea, before approaching engine mods, to revisit the current engine spacial restrictions and limits. I'll point to the Fiftyseven as the most glaring example of that issue. The '57 Out of *ALL* vehicles in Dark Wind.. That is the most glaring misrepresentation and inaccurate design. That car should hold easily that of a Buccaneer or even a that of an Osprey. Maybe shouldn't handle as well, but definitely the bulk limit it can hold, as well as the engine size limit needs to revisited and redesigned. By example: Dimensions of a 57 are 200" Length, it’s 74.4" width, Height of 57.1" and has wheelbase of 115". (5080mm/1890mm/1450mm/2921mm converted respectively) By comparision a Buccaneer would be an overall car length of 201.7", width 69.4, its height is 53.7" and a wheelbase of 112.0". (5123mm/1762mm/1363mm/2844mm converted) Doing the overall math the '57 was/is the larger of the vehicles, and if it holds a slightly smaller engine capacity, it certainly would have more usable bulk.
*Snipe* Posted Dec 6, 2012, 5:44 pm	yeah, I have always had a beef with the 57's stats. Have you seen the engine compartment or interior of a 57? Talk about space.
Fifth Posted Dec 6, 2012, 6:46 pm	*sam* said: Serephe said: I know right? In all seriousness though, I'd like to see turbo/superchargers in the game. Maybe as an item that takes up bulk and a front weapon slot. 20-40-60-80 bulk versions, based for 2L 4L 5L 7L maybe. Using an oversized mod causing engine damage or maybe having a chance to completely kill the engine. Could be a cool way to add power to some of the lower end cars to make them competetive against the faster ones if done right. Yes, putting them in as 'weapons' would be a nice way to do it, and would be a good game-balancing factor too YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYES. YES. YES. (Was that clear enough?) Though what happens if you put a turbo for a 2L engine onto a  4L? Smaller performance boost? No performance boost? Engine damage? Because I have a few Phoenixes and Sunrises that with a MMG have room for something extra...
*Tinker* Posted Dec 6, 2012, 7:22 pm	*sam* said: Serephe said: I know right? In all seriousness though, I'd like to see turbo/superchargers in the game. Maybe as an item that takes up bulk and a front weapon slot. 20-40-60-80 bulk versions, based for 2L 4L 5L 7L maybe. Using an oversized mod causing engine damage or maybe having a chance to completely kill the engine. Could be a cool way to add power to some of the lower end cars to make them competetive against the faster ones if done right. Yes, putting them in as 'weapons' would be a nice way to do it, and would be a good game-balancing factor too That sounds like no fun, the only people than can use them are racers? Also in races then all the racers will have the super gadgets and nothing will be balanced anyways. and for bulk, i'd say 5-10-15-20-25-30, if theres a need for balance can't you find it elsewhere?
*DoubleTap* Posted Dec 6, 2012, 7:39 pm	If they're a little heavy, a bit bulky, and perhaps fragile, would they need to take a weapon spot in order to balance them? I always pictured DW engines as heavily modified monsters anyway. How else could I get a 4L Phoenix up over 180 mph? No emission laws, no noise ordinances, no problem!
Juris Posted Dec 6, 2012, 8:00 pm	*sam* said: Yes, putting them in as 'weapons' would be a nice way to do it, and would be a good game-balancing factor too You could also just create new engines - just like the 3LR have a 3 liter turbo (3LT).  Maybe a 2LT, 4LT, 5LT, etc.  Something else for camps to produce.  Make the engines more powerful than their non-turbo counterpart but more fragile.  Making it take a weapon slots seems strange...
*DoubleTap* Posted Dec 6, 2012, 8:28 pm	Juris said: *sam* said: Yes, putting them in as 'weapons' would be a nice way to do it, and would be a good game-balancing factor too You could also just create new engines - just like the 3LR have a 3 liter turbo (3LT).  Maybe a 2LT, 4LT, 5LT, etc.  Something else for camps to produce.  Make the engines more powerful than their non-turbo counterpart but more fragile.  Making it take a weapon slots seems strange... +1
Fifth Posted Dec 6, 2012, 8:37 pm	Juris said: *sam* said: Yes, putting them in as 'weapons' would be a nice way to do it, and would be a good game-balancing factor too You could also just create new engines - just like the 3LR have a 3 liter turbo (3LT).  Maybe a 2LT, 4LT, 5LT, etc.  Something else for camps to produce.  Make the engines more powerful than their non-turbo counterpart but more fragile.  Making it take a weapon slots seems strange... We have nitrous take up a slot already. Though granted, nitrous needs to be "fired." And not necessarily - I can definitely see a place for turbos in my muscle cars. Not to mention couriers, scout trainers, and anyone else who might want to go FASTER out in the wilderness.
JS Posted Dec 6, 2012, 10:08 pm	*sam* said: Serephe said: I know right? In all seriousness though, I'd like to see turbo/superchargers in the game. Maybe as an item that takes up bulk and a front weapon slot. 20-40-60-80 bulk versions, based for 2L 4L 5L 7L maybe. Using an oversized mod causing engine damage or maybe having a chance to completely kill the engine. Could be a cool way to add power to some of the lower end cars to make them competetive against the faster ones if done right. Yes, putting them in as 'weapons' would be a nice way to do it, and would be a good game-balancing factor too Yes!  This would be very cool.
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Dec 7, 2012, 12:06 am	Juris said: *sam* said: Yes, putting them in as 'weapons' would be a nice way to do it, and would be a good game-balancing factor too You could also just create new engines - just like the 3LR have a 3 liter turbo (3LT).  Maybe a 2LT, 4LT, 5LT, etc.  Something else for camps to produce.  Make the engines more powerful than their non-turbo counterpart but more fragile.  Making it take a weapon slots seems strange... +1
Djihani Posted Dec 7, 2012, 12:08 am	More gimmickery in the engine bay = less guns... or just more advanced engun lss juice for them wweapon systems... whatevs, its a good balancer. use rear guns or side guns or heavier front guns, its workable wit any play style.
DieselCougar Posted Dec 7, 2012, 2:10 am	Front weapon slots make sense, after all the space for those guns come from the engine bay unless your driving one of those old VW beetles or something. Adding new engines makes sense and would be the easiest to implement, you have a 2l and you have a 2l turbo, both weigh the same even if the latter takes up more bulk(really, a turbo wouldn't weigh that much), but one has more power output. It works, but I don't personally feel it would be the most interesting or "fun" option. People like me like tweaking things. I like the idea of add ons that can only be put on at camp and take up more bulk(and maybe the possibility of converting a weapon mount to free up bulk space?)
*Bastille* Posted Dec 7, 2012, 2:36 am	Quote: and for bulk, i'd say 5-10-15-20-25-30, if theres a need for balance can't you find it elsewhere? I think those bulk figures would probably suit.
*Rev. V* Posted Dec 7, 2012, 4:00 am	I don't like the weapons slot thing. I do however feel add-ons should take up some bulk from the chassis limit. In game terms, wouldn't that balance out a bit? You'd still have the slot, but because the add-on adds bulk, you'd be limited BY that? I'd like more parity with racing vs non-racing chassis as far as engine capacity is concerned. Now, that said, that's just MY opinion, as someone who doesn't race, I'm most certainly biased in that respect. Those racers can pack some serious engines in rather small chassis. Granted, non-racing chassis also pack weapons, but it's a FACT that they're much bigger chassis. I know it's bad to think of DW stuff in RL terms.....but damn... I did construction for 2 years from the trunk of a 68 charger. Lumber was delivered onsite, but we carried everything else we needed in the trunk of that thing! You know what fits in the trunk of a Stormer? (I'm not even going to count the cavernous back seat!) Everything. A friend of mine from that time went to Japan a few years ago to teach English and he said the trunk of that thing was damned close to the size of the apartment he had there! I have a friend with a 4 door '57 and damn....that chassis should be damn near on par with a carrier van in DW bulk capacity terms..... I know for a **FACT** that you can fit 8 strippers (and me!) in the back seat of a '57.
*Snipe* Posted Dec 7, 2012, 6:36 am	I am digging the thoughts. I also believe that there should be more options for engines - turbos being a viable option. I am split between either taking a front wep slot to accommodate the extra space for the turbo, and the idea of the turbo engine being a separate thing. For playability and feel I like the weapon slot idea - lots of us are stat-mongers and we LOVE options. That being said, for ease of implementing the separate engines sound better. And maybe as an alternative we could make it like the rollcage is now as an option to add to the chassis that takes up space but no slot. Like I said, I am digging the thoughts. Keep em coming.
PvtParty Posted Dec 7, 2012, 9:35 am	It it's going to be a front-weapon slot that's taken up, what would the effect be on the offroad buggy? That's supposed to have a rear engine.
*DoubleTap* Posted Dec 7, 2012, 2:15 pm	*Rev. V* said: I don't like the weapons slot thing. I do however feel add-ons should take up some bulk from the chassis limit. In game terms, wouldn't that balance out a bit? You'd still have the slot, but because the add-on adds bulk, you'd be limited BY that? +1 here, too.
Lord Foul Posted Dec 8, 2012, 2:14 am	I’m going to be the party pooper, sorry. So far I cannot get behind this due to balance issues. From my interpretation of the mods/gadgets suggestion it appears players want to break the engine bulk/cap limits with a workaround by adding engine gadgets/mods. There is only one power band issue in the current engine hierarchy and that is in between the 4L and the 5lV8, a 4Lv8 would be the engine that could fill this gap. All other areas have a poor and good option to choose from. I’ve done plenty of testing with the available engines and there are many options a player can currently use in town or the wild. It’s already quite easy to escape the AI in travels with the current combination of engines/chassis we have available. Adding special engine gadgets/mods would give you even more of an advantage against the AI, which is not a scenario I’d agree with at this time. The little guy –vs- the big guy scenario does not make much sense to me. Any engine gadget/mod that would be available to the “little” guy would also be available to the “big” guy. Most Pro town events have engine cap/restrictions and if you enter one of these events, use the best engine allowed. Small cars such as the Marley and Flash are quite fast as they are and can post some very good lap numbers for their size even with a 1.8/3.2. These engine gadgets would also give a player to much of an advantage over the AI in town events, again currently not a scenario I’d agree with at this time. I would also see the same issues pop up if turbo engines were added to the game, which again would give the player an advantage over the AI unless Sam redid many of the stock cars and wilderness versions. The 2LR, 3LR, 3.2v8, 5lv8 are very good engines and the v12 series already gives the player a performance advantage over the AI, I‘d like to avoid making it to easy for the player. In my opinion this would end up creating a lot more work/issues than initially thought and I would rather see the energy spent on getting into the ruins completed, Morgan tweaked and many of the other issues that have been around for a very long time looked at. Suggestion, if you want more acceleration out of your engines, specialize in some drivers for your cars and/or ask Sam to allow engine tuner to be in effect in all events except stock, like has been suggested in the past. Also, you can research to find out what chassis have better acceleration than others, base weight can impact acceleration and some muscle cars don’t accelerate as quickly when compared to other chassis due to their base weight.
*Bastille* Posted Dec 8, 2012, 2:34 am	You make a lot of sense there LF. Should definitely be taken on board I recon. The mod should be taken as part of the engine. Turbos can be moved around a bit, but SCs need to be at the engine (or on some crazy system that in itself takes up sacks of space. Turbo is much the same, the further form the engine the more space it will take up and more problems associated). There is a gap between 38bulk 2Lrot and 55bulk 2.5L, the 2Lrot is probably a better option here anyway. Agree about weapon slot. PvtParty makes sense there.