Blackwill Posted Nov 27, 2012, 8:50 pm	Word in the lobby last night was that a few squads have been unintentionally intercepted by other squads, with neither squad desiring a combat, nor seeking to intercept. Apparently, they just magically ran into each other out in the vast wastelands. Some have said that there is always a possibility that two PvP open squads will intercept each other, without the need to actively set for intercept. Is this the case? Has something been fixed or changed with the latest patch? And, what is up with the sudden decrease in ballistics accuracy??
Juris Posted Nov 27, 2012, 8:52 pm	Nothing has changed to prevent Nine from viciously and unintentionally attacking me That's the way it's always been Black. It is extremely rare. Both PvP open squads have to leave the same town at the same time.
Blackwill Posted Nov 27, 2012, 9:01 pm	Thanks, Juris. Good to know. The reason I suspected a change is that it has apparently happened 4 times this week
Alec Burke Posted Nov 27, 2012, 9:16 pm	Juris said: That's the way it's always been Black.  It is extremely rare.  Both PvP open squads have to leave the same town at the same time. Don't both squads also need to be within the CR range of each other for PVP - since neither can drop vehicles like a squad set-up to do intercepts can? I remember getting these types of encounters when I was PVP open with my solo travel cars and it was always another person doing a single car travel as well. Generally surprised both of us for a moment, but that was about it.
Blackwill Posted Nov 27, 2012, 9:30 pm	Here is a question, then, in light of this new (to me) information.... What happens when I send my squads out before work, with the intention of processing encounters when I get home, and the squad is intercepted? I would have no way of knowing for about 8-10 hours....would the intercept have to wait until I processed the encounters?
*goat starer* Posted Nov 27, 2012, 9:56 pm	the intercept happens when you process.. not when you start a travel
Blackwill Posted Nov 27, 2012, 10:00 pm	Even when the program tells me I have a "next road encounter", and the squad is technically no longer at the town gates (I.e. no Town Exit Encounter)? Or, does the actual town exit (leaving, attackable) happen when I choose to play the "later" encounter?
Juris Posted Nov 27, 2012, 10:01 pm	Alec Burke said: Don't both squads also need to be within the CR range of each other for PVP - since neither can drop vehicles like a squad set-up to do intercepts can? Nope, CR drop happens.  When Nine viciously and unintentionally attacked my squad all but two vehicles dropped to match his two.
*goat starer* Posted Nov 27, 2012, 10:16 pm	Blackwill said: Even when the program tells me I have a "next road encounter", and the squad is technically no longer at the town gates (I.e. no Town Exit Encounter)? Or, does the actual town exit (leaving, attackable) happen when I choose to play the "later" encounter? you cant get an intercept beyond gates
Blackwill Posted Nov 27, 2012, 10:25 pm	Right. So, this begs the question: if I order travels from my phone, and the only encounter the computer generates is, for example, a Town Entry encounter (Process Arrival), have I just circumvented a possible town EXIT intercept by not actually being on the client at the time? In other words, would my squad never show up as "leaving, attackable" at the town of origin?
Juris Posted Nov 27, 2012, 10:42 pm	No you can get PvP in the wilderness - I fought Dodger in Scattered Grounds between GW and BL. What Goat said about encounters not happening until you process them is correct. Edit: You probably can't be intercepted in an Arrival encounter.
JS Posted Nov 27, 2012, 11:08 pm	goat starer said: Blackwill said: Even when the program tells me I have a "next road encounter", and the squad is technically no longer at the town gates (I.e. no Town Exit Encounter)? Or, does the actual town exit (leaving, attackable) happen when I choose to play the "later" encounter? you cant get an intercept beyond gates I've had the "accidental" scouting generated PvP on maps like scattered grounds.  I assume the random scouting PvP encounters can be any map, and the active intercepts are always gates.  I think the random encounters from travels are all gates, but the random PvP from two squads scouting are the other maps in the area.
Blackwill Posted Nov 27, 2012, 11:52 pm	Allow me to re-phrase my question: If I am not logged into the client, but issue travel orders through the browser, is that squad open to be intercepted? If so, when? If it doesn't show up on the Monitor Town Gates screen, can anyone intercept it? If so, when? What I am getting at is this: if I don't want my travel squads to be intercepted, but still wish to engage in PvP with my combat squads, will ordering the travel from the browser, without being logged into the client, make it possible to avoid intercepts completely? Yep...that's my question.
Serephe Posted Nov 28, 2012, 12:21 am	No. If you want to engage in pvp with combat squads and keep your travel squads save, turn your flag off and use squad challenges.
Blackwill Posted Nov 28, 2012, 12:36 am	Sadly, that does not answer the question, which is hypothetical, and possibly exposes an exploit if it works the way I think it does. It seems to me that issuing travel orders without being logged into the client removes the risk of intercepts. As for me, personally, I am PvP open, and fly my flag at all times, because PvP is why I play the game.
Juris Posted Nov 28, 2012, 1:39 am	Only Sam can answer your question - but I would hope that just because you launch from the browser(only) you could still be intercepted when you process the encounter. Otherwise it would be an exploit.
Groove Champion Posted Nov 28, 2012, 2:14 am	Blackwill: I think you only become an eligible target for PvP when you launch the event (i.e. you are logged in, you clicked the encounter button, and it is about to be played).
Blackwill Posted Nov 28, 2012, 3:09 am	That is how I hope it works, as anything else would be open for exploitation. But, since no one seems to have a difinitive answer, I suppose I will bother Sam...
*SirLatte* Posted Nov 28, 2012, 11:54 am	when you leave for a travel... your scout roll is done....but what the out ome of that roll is isnt done until you process the encounter...that is when the pvp can happen... when 2 people process their encounter about the same time...very random....very lucky/unlucky
Blackwill Posted Nov 28, 2012, 8:25 pm	Would this only work if both encounters are Town Exit Encounters, then? And, how would a targeted intercept work in the case of a Process Arrival only scout roll?? It seems to be an exploit opportunity. If I launch from the browser only, and recieve only an Arrival encounter (or none at all), my squad will theoretically bypass the town exit phase, and rob any would-be interceptors of the opportunity to delay and attack me.
*Tinker* Posted Nov 28, 2012, 9:30 pm	Like Latte said, there are 2 rolls of the dice involved when leaving town. 1) against the AI, if you make it your Scott Free, this is done via the website, if you fail you get the AI. 2) if you failed #1 above, then you roll again against players, pitching your scout level against theirs. (I might be totally wrong here) and if you fail again, then you get the player which in effect takes over the AI's place. Also you can't have return PvP encounters anymore, it's been changed like that for at least a year
Blackwill Posted Nov 28, 2012, 10:06 pm	Assuming I pass the first roll (no AI encounter), but fail the second, and must now face a Player squad: The selected player squad must wait until I process the encounter later? Or, is the player squad chosen WHEN I process the encounter? Remember, this whole question assumes that I am logged into the browser, but NOT the client when my squad begins its travel. Essentially, I am trying to gauge how the engine handles this type of travel as it relates to player intercepts....targeted intercepts in particular; with the assumption being that a player may not target another player's squad if that player is not logged into the client at the time it leaves town. If this is a correct assumption, then this can be exploited to avoid intentional, targeted intercepts.
*SirLatte* Posted Nov 28, 2012, 10:27 pm	You are not reading this correctly... 1. you send out travel.... 2. you process travel and engine rolls dice to see if have an exit encounter... Pass then repeat for next road encounter.... pass... and repeat for next road encounter or arrival....pass... home safe 3. if any of those fail it will pop up as "have town exit", "Have road encounter", "Have arrival encounter" 4. when you clik on any of those that say you have an encounter...it will decide if you are having ai encounter...or pvp encounter depending on who else is processing encounters at that time. 5. another roll will determine how the set up will be... ie facing away but ahead....head on...ambush None of these things matter if you are logged in or not....once you click to play the encounter all of these are from observations over the many years...not fact
*goat starer* Posted Nov 28, 2012, 11:26 pm	I fail to see why this is so complicated to understand
Blackwill Posted Nov 28, 2012, 11:34 pm	I don't think it works that way. It appears very much to me that the engine runs the calculations for the entire trip as soon as the travel order is issued (pressing the "Do It" button). This is why, I think, some travels run without incident, while some have "Play next road encounter" or "Process Arrival" as the only things which pop up. It is my understanding that all encounter checks are done immediately, and you only need play those which failed. The only exception being if another player actively intercepts your squad as it leaves....in which case, you would need to be logged into the actual client for your squad to appear in the "Monitor Town Gates" window. If you are not logged in, your squad will not appear, thus no intercept option. If your assumption were correct, each phase would have to be processed before the next check were run, which is obviously not the case.
Alec Burke Posted Nov 28, 2012, 11:44 pm	Blackwill said: If your assumption were correct, each phase would have to be processed before the next check were run, which is obviously not the case. How is it obviously not the case? Each time you complete a Road Encounter, you have to return to your squad to see if there is another Encounter or if you can Process Arrival. Even if it says Process Arrival, you can still end up with an Entry encounter. It is pretty clear that the check to see if you have an Entry encounter is not done until you press the button to Process Arrival. No reason that the check for additional encounters is not performed right after the completion of the previous encounter.
Serephe Posted Nov 28, 2012, 11:46 pm	I have intercepted people that have not been online in the client in the past, both by accident and on purpose.
*Bastille* Posted Nov 28, 2012, 11:52 pm	at any rate, nothing pops up in the monitor squads pane until you hit the button, to process the event. So it does not matter that you start (select travel and accept travel destination, go) a travel when logged in or not. No events are being processed. You are only entering combat (putting your squad in the monitored box, being available for intercept or chance at random encounter) when you process.
Blackwill Posted Nov 28, 2012, 11:58 pm	Never mind. Mis-read your last post. You mean the engine processes each phase as it comes up, and not the player being required to physically process the encounter. I got it.
Blackwill Posted Nov 29, 2012, 12:00 am	Serephe: what happened when you intercepted a squad from a player who wasn't logged in? Did they just sit there? Did the AI take over?
Serephe Posted Nov 29, 2012, 1:12 am	They logged in to do the encounter. If they didn't log in, the AI would most likely take over, same as when someone disconnects mid fight.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 29, 2012, 1:17 am	I believe the nuts and bolts go like this; A... You launch travel B... Computer checks if there is any town exit encounter. C... If "no" continue to next encountet check (in transit enc)... If "yes" goto D. D... Upon client activation of encounter (ie: you enter the actual event) determine WHAT is encountered. IF another player at same location also just entered his encounter, wham-intercept. If not, random AI gang (edit) It may figure out D when u click to run the encounter from the web page instead of entering the event since you are decisivly commited at that point.
Blackwill Posted Nov 29, 2012, 1:41 am	That's what I'm thinking, as well. All checks are done at once, from Exit to Entry. Encounters are stacked in order, and played out sequentially once the player issues the first Play command. Those which are not used (i.e. you lose your car before the Process Arrival event) are deleted. I do not think encounter rolls are done after each encounter, as this seems an awful waste of compute cycles (having to run the routine multiple times, instead of just once).
*Bastille* Posted Nov 29, 2012, 2:03 am	so you are saying that on a travel one guy set his squad to go, and and only people that set their squad to run at that time are matched up? My squad pops up in the monitored box when I process an encounter. It pops up for all encounters on a journey, when I hit the encounter button. I would amuse that means its interactive at that point.
Blackwill Posted Nov 29, 2012, 2:06 am	I'm just going to test it myself, with the help of another player, to see, exactly, what happens. It's the only way to be sure.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 29, 2012, 2:15 am	I dont think all checks are done at once. If that were the case, you could send out a high level scout, lose him in the first encounter and yet still have the remaining encounters affected by his skill. People would scream "Exploit!" About that.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 29, 2012, 2:33 am	Bottom line is that Sam is smart enough to make it both fair yet unavoidable for PvP accidental encounters. If he wasnt, someone would notice the holes and use them until someone else cried Foul (or Lord... One of the two). Point is, Sam is smart, players are also smart, and after this long I doubt many loopholes exist. If they do Juan will find them, then people who dont like him will get mad, accusations will fly, we will all have a flamefest, then Sam will fix/change it. Then we will gripe aboit it for months afterwards...
Blackwill Posted Nov 29, 2012, 3:49 am	Just tested it with Useless Children...my squad never showed up as (leaving, attackable) in its origin town, or (arriving, immune) at its destination. It simply ran an encounter, and I arrived at my destination. No opportunity for Useless Children to intercept it when it left, as it travelled, or when it arrived.
*SirLatte* Posted Nov 29, 2012, 4:12 am	Blackwill said: That's what I'm thinking, as well.  All checks are done at once, from Exit to Entry.  Encounters are stacked in order, and played out sequentially once the player issues the first Play command.  Those which are not used (i.e. you lose your car before the Process Arrival event) are deleted.  I do not think encounter rolls are done after each encounter, as this seems an awful waste of compute cycles (having to run the routine multiple times, instead of just once). They are not all done at once... after each one different things can happen that will change to make it either more or less likely that another enounter will happen...  This will be my last post on this as I feel like im talking to brick wall.
Blackwill Posted Nov 29, 2012, 4:33 am	Thanks for the information you provided during your participation, Latte. Much appreciated. That having been said, it does appear that issuing travel orders while not logged into the client makes it impossible for targeted intercepts to occur. I have tested this process twice now, with the same result. No opportunity to intercept. As for the sequence of events that Latte outlined above, there appears to be some debate about it. And, while some may have already grown bored with the discussion, I will continue to look for a difinitive answer, since no one really seems to know for sure. A lot of guesses, a lot of assumptions, and a bit of contradictory evidence, but no answers.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 29, 2012, 6:15 am	From my own experience, during 4 to 5 months of running 6 to 10 travels per night, I was only intercepted 4 times. On all occasions I launched the travels while NOT logged into the client (from my phone at work). My intercepts were from: 1) my brother Boonwolf as we both processed a BL town exit, unarmed travel. 2) Nechrotech while we were both exiting BL to take our CoE cars someplace else, 3) Snipe. also exiting BL. 4) I think Serephe but i forget. Im pretty sure the way it determines your opponent is like the old encounter charts for RPG pen&paper games where a random # is generated and it checks it against a list such as (1D20 used as example) 1-18 AI Gang 19-20 Available players then it checks against the "pool" ie:a Call Data operation (or whatever it is called now-a-days. for example: 3 players are all waiting on the head to pop for their BL exit. you "roll" a PvP result and then it simply chooses one of those 3. Or you roll an AI result and the program knows the Data String contains 12 items and generates a random number between 1 and 12 {let x=(int(rnd)*12)+1} then it pulls the gang from the Data line {Data=Robberbaron, Buccyboo, Fartknocker, JoeBlough, EvanReds, PoppaWickit, Doofuses} etcetera Think LESS about how a computer might do this, and more about how a pen&paper game would. Then consider the fact that there are probably no loopholes because if there were and you found them, you would be breaking the rules by using them.
Blackwill Posted Nov 29, 2012, 2:46 pm	Understood. However, the main idea was not the random intercepts you speak of, but, rather, could a player avoid intentional (targeted) intercepts by travelling this way. It appears to be so, but I will await confirmation from Sam. If this is the case, I am not sure how it could be fixed to close the exploit opportunity without making travel unweildy. Again, I have sent the request to Sam, and await his reply.
*Tinker* Posted Nov 29, 2012, 7:40 pm	Blackwill said: Thanks for the information you provided during your participation, Latte.  Much appreciated. That having been said, it does appear that issuing travel orders while not logged into the client makes it impossible for targeted intercepts to occur.  I have tested this process twice now, with the same result.  No opportunity to intercept. As for the sequence of events that Latte outlined above, there appears to be some debate about it.  And, while some may have already grown bored with the discussion, I will continue to look for a difinitive answer, since no one really seems to know for sure.  A lot of guesses, a lot of assumptions, and a bit of contradictory evidence, but no answers. Keep trying with no scout, and ask a player with a decent scout to try and get ya
Alec Burke Posted Nov 29, 2012, 8:32 pm	*Tinker* said: Keep trying with no scout, and ask a player with a decent scout to try and get ya Or at the very least, have a gang that is PVP Open try to target you. I'm not certain what exactly this test was, but if Useless Children was the one trying to intercept, that was impossible given the fact he is not open for PVP. And from what StCrispin posted, I don't know if all four events were accidental or not. The first two certainly were, but Snipe and Serephe could have been intentional PVP intercepts.
*goat starer* Posted Nov 29, 2012, 9:55 pm	jesus.. im tempted to send my spies out and see when he is on his phone and then intercept him and kill him utterly just to make this stop
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 29, 2012, 10:05 pm	None of mine resulted in a fight. It was a long time ago before the PvP push kicked in but they did seem to all occur in the same few week period of time. 2 CoE seasons ago, Snipe occured 1 week after the BL CoE, the 4th (Sere I think but maybe not. Cant remember) was 2 weeks after the BL CoE. So it could be that it was CoE car intercepting to prevent someone getting the next week's points. Back on topic: Blackwill, let us know what Sam says about this if he doesnt answer here. Im pretty sure avoidance isnt possible but im curious how it decides. It would be nice if the intercept system was a bit more intuitive and user friendly to use/initiate.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Nov 29, 2012, 10:10 pm	goat starer said: jesus.. im tempted to send my spies out and see when he is on his phone and then intercept him and kill him utterly just to make this stop This would be awsome.
Blackwill Posted Nov 29, 2012, 10:45 pm	The tests were just to see if my squads showed up in the minitoring/intercept windows. They did not. I understand goat's frustration, as well. But I am not content to let "possibly" and "seems to me" to take the place of corroborated evidence, especially when my own observations are in conflict with the accepted logic. The simplest solution, for goat, would be to not read the thread if it bothers him. Or, you know, hunt me down in an effort to silence me. Ill post any further results here, as requested. Those who are not interested can avoid the topic quite easily.
*Brunwulf* Posted Dec 12, 2012, 8:35 pm	I just had an 'accidental' PVP with Tez (Blood Roses) Turns out we were BOTH hunting RAIDERS. Is this why we had the 'accidental' PVP- because we were both hunting the same enemy, at the same time- or is it just total co-incidence?
Blackwill Posted Dec 12, 2012, 10:46 pm	That is the rumor
musashi_san Posted Dec 12, 2012, 11:13 pm	if tez doesn't want his cars back i'd be willing to entertain buying one. awesome skins.
*Brunwulf* Posted Dec 13, 2012, 7:59 am	Sorry- I gave them back to him- keep on his good side as i'm sure that's not the last we will see each other in the wilds!