Everything wrong about PvP
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Krakhedd Posted Oct 17, 2012, 6:56 am |
Event #S502167 - "No Way" versus "Peacekeepers". No Way hunting Raiders outside SS. Somebody had their PvP flag on. Fine. I fought one with this squad the other night, because it was fair. Please tell me what's fair about almost 1600cr against ~900. Also, please tell me what's fair about having to pay $469k because Juris declined a truce.
I am still somewhat a newb and my focus is on building. I shouldn't be tasked with having to pay such a huge bounty to get out of a completely unfair PvP (and, truth be told, I didn't even pay, because two members of my squad split the tab). But this was absolutely unfair. #1) Why can't the CR balancing work a LOT better, so I'm not in a squad w/ six cars, two of which are ram muscles, against a squad of an equal or greater number of car. that also includes a fire engine w/ two tank guns? #2) Why can't I, as the squad leader, choose whether the PvP flag for the entire squad is on or not? I shouldn't be subjected to the same dangers as more senior players, just because they are helping me by scouting with me in the first place. |
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Serephe Posted Oct 17, 2012, 7:57 am |
1) Scout level.
2) You can. Don't take people who are flagged for PvP on your scouts. On a side note, your squad could have easily obliterated that fire engine from that spawn and cost him far more than you could have lost. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 17, 2012, 8:37 am |
seems an unlikely bounty.. are you sure it was not 46k?
and if you only had a bunch of crappy muscle cars with rams why not just surrender and walk home |
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*Bastille* Posted Oct 17, 2012, 10:50 am |
I thought the bounty option was removed? | ||||||
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*Jagged Monkey* Posted Oct 17, 2012, 10:54 am |
Why not ram the Fire Engine? | ||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 17, 2012, 12:02 pm |
this should be moved out of bugs... unless:
a) the bounty was bugged b) the CR matching was bugged |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Oct 17, 2012, 2:27 pm |
Moved out of bugs.
As for the rest, it all seems to be working as it should. A little bit of bad luck maybe, but c'mon. Fight it as best you can or --gasp!-- run away. If one fire engine is taking up the lion's share of their CR it seems like no real problem just gettin' the hell outta Dodge, especially when you can use the initial setup phase to maximize your terrain advantage for an escape while the enemy is setting up for a fight. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along. |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Oct 17, 2012, 2:30 pm |
You can. See who's in your squad and insist that PvP-on players depart. It's your squad; take command. That mechanism is in there deliberately; it prevents PvP-on players from "hiding" in flag-off squads until they decide they want to try an intercept. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 17, 2012, 3:36 pm |
lets deal with this one.. the game allows (I believe) about + / - 20% to enable PVP squads to make matches. I thought I would take a look at the vehicles involved and look at similar cars in my garage. Looking at the cars Juris is fielding I would estimate his squad is around 1200cr yours looks top end of 900s. So it is in the right ball park. The squad he is using has 1600cr of vehicles in it but the game drops vehicles from the bottom of his list to make a match... I suspect he got lucky with the matching and ended up at or near +20%. Unlucky.... but war is asymmetrical. Juris had slightly higher CR (not the nearly double you seem to think) but you had the drop on him. I actually think you could have won that fight... not just taken out his FE.... had you tried. so the answer to: 1) is... CR matching does work... you misread the CR of the two squads and 2) is well answered above.. you could have made your squad non PVP harsh but true |
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Juris Posted Oct 17, 2012, 4:08 pm |
Krak was right about the bounty being near half a mil but Goat was right about the CR - my actual CR was 1350 after two of my vehicles dropped (I initially told the lobby it was 1600 CR but that was the full squad before the drop) - so I got lucky with the FE. I set my squad up to drop the vehicles I least want in PvP - when I saw the FE still in the squad I realized it was gonna be a big fight lol
Krak - it wasn't totally impossible but the odds were definitely in my favor BUT - you could've looted a FE and four Famous vehicles so sack up. All I could've got was an Apache and BPU and some Phos. Jeet is also right - it was a Gates map and you guys got a favorable spawn (behind me) - you could have refused to bounty and just ran back into SS. That said I don't disagree with your decision to bounty - there would've been blood, that's for sure. Your teammates all had a good laugh, no one got hurt, Snipe said 'next time I'm gonna get you', Ninja laughed when I asked if I could join the next group scout and said 'anytime bro'. Your team reimbursed you for the bounty. Were you freaked out, was it unexpected that there might be things out there that can kill you, even in SS? Good, that's the way it's supposed to be - the Sun went mad and nearly everyone died. Besides, your faction is Renegade - I'm DR mafia and the Civs and SS love me, so I guess that makes you the 'bad guy'. But don't worry, I'm not pressing charges even though the name of my squad was Peacekeeper 
As Jeet said things worked as intended - move along 
Edit: It was also random PvP - I didn't mean to intercept you Edit2: I also had a great scout - so that might explain the CR imbalance |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Oct 17, 2012, 4:34 pm |
On a completely different note, was this the scout I opted out of last night before I logged off?!
DAMMIT!! 
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*The X Man* Posted Oct 17, 2012, 8:16 pm |
Yes Jee, that was the one....you missed out! Would have enjoyed having you there as backup too. |
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WarChylde Posted Oct 17, 2012, 8:55 pm |
In the interest of full disclosure, I wasn't there and was involved in no way 
I'd just like to comment on a post, where someone said if you had muscles vs a fire truck, why didn't you just surrender and walk home? If part of the idea is to get newer folks involved in and enjoying PvP, how does telling a newer person to just walk away from what he's worked so hard to get gonna make him more interested in Pvp? I'm personally to the point where gangers matter more than cars, but at the beginning where even your best gangers are a week out of the tavern, it's harder to get a car you like than a replacement body to put in it. It just seems a counterproductive comment from the idea of getting more newer folks into widespread PvP. |
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Necrotech Posted Oct 17, 2012, 9:16 pm |
Trust me, He would *NOT* have been backup, he would have been on fire instead.....
Wait... No maybe not, but he just seems to burst into flames or finds a way to kill himself whenever he is in an event with me. I should give him a few Fuel trucks for PVP Intercept encounters... just in case.
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Oct 17, 2012, 9:58 pm |
Huh. Seems you are the common denominator here.
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Lord Foul Posted Oct 17, 2012, 10:58 pm |
Sure about that JT? Didn't you burst into flames in a recent race with me?
lol |
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Groove Champion Posted Oct 17, 2012, 11:00 pm |
I agree with this. Any game mechanic that is cumbersome (e.g. One PvP-on flag turning an entire squad of PvP-off players) and requires dull, unentertaining fiddling (e.g. requesting that only PvP-off players join a squad and -as the squad leader- confirming this player-by-player in the squad page before launching) needs to go. Streamlining the game so we can focus on blasting pirates/travelling/earning etc. instead of micro-managing dull settings and nitpicking on the webpage is the key to a great (and successful) game. |
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Serephe Posted Oct 18, 2012, 1:03 am |
Yeah making things a pain in the ass sucks; sure wish the game was open pvp so pvp wasn't such a royal pain in the ass. 
Seriously if you think making sure your squad is pvp off when you don't feel like pvp is micromanaging you are playing the wrong game. |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Oct 18, 2012, 1:09 am |
Touche'
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Ragnak Posted Oct 18, 2012, 2:30 am |
Just some thoughts here....
The group scouting dynamic is not quite what it used to be. The lobby doesnt have the numbers like what it may have had when I joined a couple years ago. Players should be aware that if they roll with PVP enabled gangs then they accept that same risk. That said, the Po-PVP gangs should also show some sense when hitting squads out of SS in that they know they may very well be hitting mixed squads of vets and newbs. Our own WIKI advises all new players to group scout. I do not believe this mechanic bodes well for the experience of a new gang who is struggling to understand the game and survive during their first couple of months in the game. A player bringing in a FE armed with tank guns is not gunning for your cars. The cars will be burnt out shells once they get hit. The player is gunning for bloood and red lining gangers. Simple statement. For those who say the other team should have played it out and see what happens, easy to say when you dont have a dog in the race. We all know that even if they could have gotten a win, it would have been a pyrric victory with a lot lost in the process. A run for the gates, muscles would have gotten away but not quite so for some others. I think the team did right by trucing out. The amount of the truce is based on a gangs fame and their ability to pay. You rolled with some gangs with some very deep pockets and it sounds like they also stepped up and covered the bill. Had you been on your own, I am sure your truce would have been much less. Rags |
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Groove Champion Posted Oct 18, 2012, 10:22 am |
I wouldn't argue with that. You know I don't disagree with you on that point, and that I wasn't talking about that at all. Just because PvP in general is poorly implemented doesn't mean everything else in Dark Wind has to be equally tedious.
I don't have this problem, because my PvP flag is on and I couldn't care less whether I get intercepted or not. However, if I did want to avoid PvP at all cost and threw an 'all welcome' call for scouting in the lobby, I wouldn't enjoy going through the list of those who had joined, picking out the ones with the wrong flag and kicking them out of my squad. I woiuldn't enjoy making a specific demand of other players that they stay out of my events because they've chosen one way or another on the PvP question. First of all, it shouldn't be such a polarizing issue. Secondly, what I describe above is tedious micro-management. I'm not playing the wrong game, you are choosing to look at this issue with a closed mind because it doesn't favor PvP. |
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limaechogolf Posted Oct 18, 2012, 11:27 am |
Seems to me we already know the two or three gangs with PVP off. So just call out for them to group scout or IM them.
As bad as my gang is I like the PVP, I just wish I was with a Veteran band when I got attacked that might make the outcome a little different. Now having a MAX CR outta of SS might make things a little fairer and leave some decent NPC gangs available to hunt for newer gangers. Meaning there shouldnt be allowed these FIRE ENGINE, TRASH TRUCK BUZZER combos to attack some Evan Enforcers and Phos in the first place. The town of SS and their mayor should stand up to the Governor of Evan and let it be known we are a civilized town and we are going to take your CarCannons and AntiTank guns at the Gates you can have them when you leave. It doesnt teach a new player one bit that tags along how to scout when you line up and start blasting things with mortars and car cannons that is not strategy thats just having way more inventory then the others these heavy weapons should be in Gw or Badlands helping clean up the wastes so oneday these towns can build a hospital and training center so thier bastard children can one day say i have a future. |
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Serephe Posted Oct 18, 2012, 12:19 pm |
You're forgetting the part where the entire game is tedious micro-management, even including the actual combat itself. Making sure you don't have anyone you don't want in your squad isn't a PvP issue, it's a game issue. Especially with team killing back on the cards. I don't have a closed mind, I have one that isn't controlled by ADD. |
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*DoubleTap* Posted Oct 18, 2012, 1:51 pm |
Briefly read that last word as "acid;" mad me laugh. |
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*Jagged Monkey* Posted Oct 18, 2012, 4:39 pm |
The squad page does mention, in red, when someone in the squad is open to PvP and that you are open for attack. FYI | ||||||
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*sam* Posted Oct 18, 2012, 5:02 pm |
Regarding the payment of bounties to avoid a combat, in case anyone missed this subtlety:
In the maps around the northern towns (SS,Elms,GW), a pre-computed 'bounty' can be paid in order to force a truce. This is primarily to allow safe travels here if you are generally open to pvp but don't currently have the time or inclination to run a pvp battle. The size of the bounty depends on the CRs of the vehicles in the squad and the fame of the gangs that own them. So, you don't have to close your pvp flag just becuase of limited play-time and not wanting to have unpredictable game lengths. Just stay north when your time is tight. |
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Groove Champion Posted Oct 18, 2012, 7:46 pm |
There is a lot of micro-management in Dark Wind, but I think most of it is fun. Checking squad members before getting into the action isn't fun at all: it's an unnecessary delay that stems from the PvP flag dictating what can and can't happen to a group of players that have chosen differently on the PvP question. Not a plus at all in my opinion.
I'm sorry to see I'm on your bad side now, Sere. Didn't mean to fling mud at you. |
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*goat starer* Posted Oct 18, 2012, 8:42 pm |
you two should remember you are on the same side.... EVIL!!! |
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Blackwill Posted Oct 18, 2012, 9:08 pm |
If you are concerned about being forced to pay a bounty, but still wish to scout with players who are open to PvP, simply let it be known ahead of time tht the open players will be asked to foot the bill should the need arise.
Or, engage the interceptor, and have fun with it. |
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*The X Man* Posted Oct 18, 2012, 9:12 pm |
Very useful information Sam, Thank you. Now, how do we implement that feature if an intercept happens to us again so we do not have to over pay...again?!? |
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Groove Champion Posted Oct 18, 2012, 9:27 pm |
You paid for the possibility of trucing. You benefitted from an exception made for the northern towns.
Next time do what Blackwill suggested: have the PvP-on players foot the bill. If they refuse, I guess you don't have many options with your PvP flag turned off. |
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*jimmylogan* Posted Oct 18, 2012, 9:33 pm |
For sake of taking care of the OP - did you get your questions answered? I know there's a lot of talk in this thread, and a lot of it is good information to air out, but have YOU been satisfied that your questions have been answered? Not that you necessarily agree with the answers, but are they there? JL |
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madmax Posted Dec 12, 2012, 6:11 pm |
Maybe just have the bounty be cheaper in SS than GW? 500k isn't exactly getting off easy. Honestly, the best part of scouting out of SS is that pretty much everyone can join in, and having to limit it to people with the PVP flag off would just make it harder to go scouting. And telling a newer player he should "just have fun" getting blown to pieces by tank guns is kinda silly. | ||||||
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Blackwill Posted Dec 12, 2012, 6:33 pm |
Are there vets attacking new players with Tank guns? I haven't seen an NPC gang in the Northern Triangle toting around any Tank Guns. And, if a gang is bringing heavy weapons into a PvP event against a new player, then maybe the CR balancer is broken. If a veteran player is attacking a new player with anything larger than a Gat (possibly an HMG), maybe the rest of us should track them down and see that they dont do it again....ever. A self-policing community only ever works if the community actually takes a stand. Check out the CoE 2 in Texan....and see what happens when two noob players get tired of being harassed and obliterated by a player who consistently brings ganger-killer weapons into PvP events.....teamwork works. Scratch 2 car cannons and one Legendary BPU. |
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madmax Posted Dec 12, 2012, 6:40 pm |
Um, yeah? Krak said that the other squad had a Fire Engine with Tank Guns. | ||||||
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*Snipe* Posted Dec 12, 2012, 6:41 pm |
it did
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Blackwill Posted Dec 12, 2012, 7:28 pm |
Oh...well, then.....
It may be time for a bit of retribution. Snipe: What time will you be on tonight...just out of curiosity? 
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Joel Autobaun Posted Dec 16, 2012, 10:31 pm |
Told you so.
Complicated mess. |
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Necrotech Posted Dec 16, 2012, 10:42 pm |
Nice Try Black.. That "destroyed" Legendary BPU, Funny, It just "obliterated" another of your vehicles... per usual. Even has the original weapons.
How did THAT happen? I don't remember, I got, what was is it in that event? That's it!, I rolled for first place. How did *THAT happen? And how did you end up in that event... DNF, yep zilch. As for harassing.. that is your stock and trade. Leave the winning to those who put the wrench time in. And BTW, *ALL* weapons are ganger killers... unless it has something to do with paint. So please.. do check out that event... rather humorous actually. Not sure what you thought you were celebrating... Almost doesn't cut it....
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 17, 2012, 1:37 am |
First in which event? TX? Because I know u cant mean SF! You got first there because I gave it to you. Suggestion of avoiding CC rounds to my car was not what prompted me to let you win. It was the same as why I let Brun finish ahead of me too; well... 2 reasons really, primarily out of respect and friendship/comradery but secondly because me placing first doesnt change any rankings for the better.
Plus now in a simlar situation or when im in need of an assist, I can say, hey... Remember the times ive... Etc... Heh heh. How many players realize that for all your bluster and smack talk, you tend to lean towards the respectable side overall? |
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Blackwill Posted Dec 17, 2012, 1:56 am |
I'll let the recording speak for itself, Necro. You got punked. Just deal with it. You were...what is it you like to say? "Out played". | ||||||
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Necrotech Posted Dec 17, 2012, 1:59 am |
Shhh... Quiet you... If they finally figure out that I am a softy at heart, they'll catch on and like me.... now shush.
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Serephe Posted Dec 17, 2012, 2:00 am |
Less worthless trashtalk, more pvp. | ||||||
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Necrotech Posted Dec 17, 2012, 2:00 am |
Yep.. guess I did... Finished first place in that.. AFTER I lost my truck. IF that's punked.. I'll take 100 more like it, I just find a way to win, period, Punk!...LOMFAO
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Blackwill Posted Dec 17, 2012, 2:05 am |
Yes...you DID finish first. All it took was for you to put aside your self-proclaimed sense of "honor" and ped X-Man after you resigned, and then beg Joel to let you win.
That's pretty good strategy, there, Necro. Reminds me of Kindergarten. |
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Necrotech Posted Dec 17, 2012, 2:38 am |
*snickering* I am done with the convo here, you talk more smack than anything to back it up ... as much as I could get long in the tooth with you, I realize... it's pointless. It would never end with you, because cannot accept not getting the last word or snippet. So fire away, please.
On ending this, I also realize your frustration with the game system. And as your target, and you will use me as your focus of all that is wrong with it. Out there, where it matters... Doesn't amount to anything with you. You can keep trying, go ahead.. this supposed Elitist will keep right doing what he does, even with your barely minimal interference. To rest of you.. I apologize, I should have just left this alone, knew better, and did not use my good judgement.
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Dec 17, 2012, 3:12 am |
Ha ha. He took a page from my playbook, did he? I did that very same thing to him once. But I didnt win, or finish. One of the other new guts smoked me like a fat Krak rock. But I effectively botched up Necro's driving in that race and he crashed into a pit underwater after taking a crossbow and an RPG into his breach. Maybe we will see a repeat of 2 sasons ago when Zed pummeled his Osprey or Turin or whatever his fancy ride was, into scrap by continuing to pump dual CC rounds into it for the whole race after he was KIA and out. Thats how you do harm Blackwill. Chassis damage and Perma to expensive cars. But you sacrifice the race itself for the hatefest. Besides Necky can get more CCs pretty easy. Unlike those of you fighting with him. Shove a Heavy Rocket up his pipe next time. Right into the breach. Less forum attacks, more BLOOD on the track instead! |
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Sarge Posted Feb 16, 2013, 9:52 am |
This. Very much this. I have no idea why being the squad leader means your PVP flag DOES NOT TAKE precedence. This is definitely the stupidest part of the current PVP rules. It would be blindingly obvious to all, new players and old, what the situation was if the leader's flag was the only one to matter (and if it was more obvious which state their flag was in). I think it's really daft, considering that the flags take time to change, that if I want to have a no-PVP scout I can't take anyone with a PVP flag turned on. If I don't mind the chance of having a PVP encounter I could choose to go with a scout whose leader has their flag turned on. |
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*goat starer* Posted Feb 16, 2013, 10:56 am |
no.. the stupidest part is that you can set a PVP flag at all bunch of snivelling cowards the lot of you
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Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 16, 2013, 7:02 pm |
Just watched someone escort RTM through shanty and absolutely no worries. what afkin joke |