The best way to hunt a player
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 3, 2012, 5:26 pm |
I'm not too familiar with PvP mechanics as I have always set myself as a target rather than a hunter. Now that needs to change.
If I want to target a specific player, what are the best ways to go about it? |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 3, 2012, 6:05 pm |
LOL
Good luck man. Catch a "tiger" by the toe and watch him truce away. That said there are a few(very few) ways to still mess someone up badly, but I sure as hell will not post them here. |
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FireFly Posted Aug 3, 2012, 6:07 pm |
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Fifth Posted Aug 3, 2012, 6:24 pm |
#1: "Never do yourself what you can get someone to do for you." Put a BIG bounty on your target and watch every NPC bounty hunter swarm them. See if it does some damage. #2: "Swaaaaaaaarm" If you can intercept a cargo convoy in an area where they can't truce out, hit them with a swarm of Phoenixes or Flashes, each with a HMG or Rocket Launcher and expendable gangers. If you want to go more expensive, give each car a pair of HRRs. Charge in close, use terrain cover, and put every shot on one or two Two Axle Lorries. Lorries do not respond well to multiple rocket hits, and often carry lots of valuable cargo. Every unit of food or fuel destroyed is a unit your target isn't going to sell. Your gangers and vehicles aren't going to survive, but if you use zerkers or high-courage recruits, you might be able to ensure that your target recovers nothing but scrap metal. This is a tactic I've contemplated, but never actually put into practice. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 3, 2012, 6:27 pm |
#1 Cannot bounty someone with the FKINFKINFKIN: PvP Flag off. #2 HAHA you over estimate the cost of a truce...grossly overestimate. |
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Necrotech Posted Aug 3, 2012, 7:02 pm |
Attention *SAM*
Turn off trucing south of the GW border... or even SS border for those who have PVP set to ON |
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Juris Posted Aug 3, 2012, 7:55 pm |
Yep. Now if there was only a way to get a pop-up when a designated player was leaving town... :: 'Nitwit' has a squad leaving, do you wish to intercept?:: |
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 3, 2012, 7:57 pm |
*groan*
This is quite frankly pathetic. (not the conversation: the situation)
A thousand times yes. I want this. Exactly this. |
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Necrotech Posted Aug 3, 2012, 8:06 pm |
Again, should this be moved to the suggestion forum ? | ||||||||
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 3, 2012, 8:09 pm |
Personally I don't even think it should be discussed: it should just be implemented... Finally players would reap what the truly sow (No, I don't mean cheaty-Ambulances).
Time to cull the weak. |
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Necrotech Posted Aug 3, 2012, 8:13 pm |
The weak are being harvested already, just not in a good way.
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Juris Posted Aug 3, 2012, 8:21 pm |
Lol be more diplomatic or people will oppose it It's called Freedom - end arbitrary restrictions and create a atmosphere more positive for the airing of grievances |
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JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Aug 3, 2012, 8:34 pm |
If your trying to hunt me down, your going to need a 200skill scout or better, and the realization that of the 20 or so bpus I sent out, your only going to get a chance to intercept one maybe 2 from each town because most wont even see a town exit encounter due to the way i have to shuffle squads within the squad limits
What ever happened to ladder events? |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 3, 2012, 9:10 pm |
whatever cheat |
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*Jagged Monkey* Posted Aug 3, 2012, 9:24 pm |
I don't think anyone mentioned you in this thread Juan. | ||||||||
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Ragnak Posted Aug 3, 2012, 10:11 pm |
Course I am sure you mean in a friendly RP sort of way. Call the bastard(s) out in the RP forums so you avoid the griefing call. Beyond forum humiliation, not much can be done unless the player is a camp owner. Canmps can be hit with several very sneaky and damaging actions. Most way below the belt. Of course, if your opponent doesnt have the balls to fight, hitting below the belt is painless right. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 4, 2012, 5:14 pm |
So, admitting that what you're doing is making it impossible to intercept the majority of your squads? lol. Scum. |
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JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Aug 4, 2012, 5:30 pm |
NO, all I am saying is it was easier to intercept me when i had 41 squads running | ||||||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 4, 2012, 6:13 pm |
No it wasn't. Can you please shut the hell up? |
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JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Aug 4, 2012, 6:59 pm |
40 chances to intercept someone is better odds then 3 or 4.
NO, but i can flip you the bird |
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Serephe Posted Aug 4, 2012, 7:12 pm |
That might be true if it wasn't for the fact that you were doing anything you could to avoid intercepts; running squads from Ruv and Wingmans accounts (lol, I mean your accounts, sorry!), running multiple encounters at the same moment, etc.
I'd love to be able to say that you just don't understand the consequences of your actions, but that's not true. You do understand. You just don't care. |
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JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Aug 4, 2012, 7:42 pm |
wruv is his own player who asked me to do him some favors, it's his account not mine thus i didn't have multiple accounts. Ruv logged into his own account and set up squads etc. dave (wingman) is my neighbor and he comes over a lot. same deal. | ||||||||
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Serephe Posted Aug 4, 2012, 7:52 pm |
Yeah that's grade A baloney and you know it. There's a reason those gangs had only you in their events history over the past 6 months. Not to mention that the Wingman gang was basically completely empty except for you using it.
But hey, after all, you're just a man who "has goals" and "will do whatever I want to achieve them" right. It's not like you're ever affecting anybody, since Darkwind is a single player game right? Oh wait. Any time Sam has replied to me and told me that he's told you to stop what you're doing, it's only been days before you've started again... or started something different. If you actually DO end up playing by the book(lol) now, I garauntee it's only because Necro outed you publicly. |
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FireFly Posted Aug 4, 2012, 8:24 pm |
For the record, DW's economy is so ####ed anyway nothing Juan could possibly do with even 10 accounts cant fix/wreck it even more, lol | ||||||||
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*Jagged Monkey* Posted Aug 4, 2012, 10:35 pm |
Juan, turn your PvP flag on. Quit being such a [...] and man up. It's time to settle the score.
Edited by Marshal JeeTeeOh. Let's at least use civilized namecalling when we resort to that, gentlemen. |
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 5, 2012, 12:21 am |
Of course you could offer a player bounty as well. Anyone who kills a rated ganger in a twon event or scout gets a wad of dosh. You only pay PCs on results.
Or you could keep donating $1M to his gang and hope they decide actually doing anything is looking like work. Or you could accept them as a force of nature. Or you could... nah that's actionable and it's too hard to cover your tracks these days. |
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JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Aug 5, 2012, 2:07 am |
What score do I have to settle? none. What do I have to gain from this? nothing. Besides... PVP flag has no value south of gateway anyhow and that's where most my travels are. | ||||||||
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*Jagged Monkey* Posted Aug 5, 2012, 3:48 am |
On my way! | ||||||||
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Necrotech Posted Aug 5, 2012, 4:48 am |
Jagged... I think you should change your avatar to this.
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*Bastille* Posted Aug 5, 2012, 7:06 am |
Note when leaving town is a good idea. no trucing is a bad idea. There has to be some choice of options as to what we want to do when we want to play. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 5, 2012, 7:58 am |
Turn of trucing for people with PvP on full stop. Otherwise just get rid of the PvP flag and allow PvP everywhere. People who don't want to fight the PvP encounter can just pay their pissy little $10k fee and be on their way.
Better yet, do both, and let the community sort out "bullies" themselves. If someone isn't reasonable enough to work out a deal to let people go occasionally if they don't have time for a PvP match then the community would have the opportunity to deal with them anyway. Seriously, people complaining that "oh people need to be able to play how they want to" while completely ####ing over the PvP community with a 40 foot fluffy pink dildo piss me off. You know how I wanted to play? I wanted to play vs players; not just in crappy little boy leagues, I want to fight them out in the wastes. Guess what? Any time anyone didn't have time for PvP, or were far below me in gear/skill/experience I was quite happy to truce. |
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 5, 2012, 8:28 am |
Equally Serephe anyone who was willing to play with you would have done so anyway.
We aren't putting in these checks and balances for fair minded people, we are putting them to stop idiots wrecking the game for poeple who have neither the time nor inclination to PvP, either on a specific occasion or as a default condition. If I set my PvP flag to no, it tells you I am not interested in wasting my life playing silly buggers with half-wits on an ego trip. If I filter out PvP with the occasional person who might show me a little consideration, that little consideration would also allow me the option filter them out without complaint. If people choose PvP, I agree the trucing option should be unavailable. There is no point saying I am keen to face the grit and the guns only to wimp out when it gets a bit hard. You can truce manually (via chat) by simply telling your opponent you don't want to fight. They can let you go for free or on condition you pay any fee (via the gifting money option) they choose to name. If you can't reach an agreement you can either run or surrender, the only need for a truce option is against NPCs as the manual mechanism isn't available to them. In what way is someone refusing to PvP messing with the community, by definition they aren't interacting with the community. If they are screwing the economy, well to be frank they already had a head start as it isn't sensible to let players have that level of control in the first place. If they are killing gangers in non-PvP ways, clearly the same mechanism exists for anyone else. If the issue is they are gaining some minor benefit for their own gang in the game, so what. They get rich a bit quicker by cheating. Other players who have been in the game years have got their own way unopposed and have moulded the game to their own interests over time. That's the biggest exploit in the game. As CR balancing takes no account of ganger skill and player experience, it may seem unfair to a new player that their PvP encounter with a snaggle tooth old vet (even if they had identical vehicles) is still massively unbalanced. The usual crap about "we all had to claw our way up" and "I remember when all this was symphs" and "A skill 250 ganger with 5 levels of Sniper isn't much better than your skill 47 ganger" won't wash. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 5, 2012, 8:43 am |
It's people who have no interest in pvp and try to push changes that make it impossible for people who DO want to pvp outside the little safezones to do so that is the problem.
People who want to hunt and be able to be hunted should be able to do so. People who don't can stick it up their arse and have fun playing vs the AI, I don't care, do what they want; just don't affect the people that DO want to actually play vs an opponent that can fight back. The people who would beat up new guys for fun are the people that the current system is protecting most, by the way. They can abuse town events, ram vehicles in scouts, etc, without any real way to get back at them. After all they can just go about their scouting to fund their rampages safe in the fact that a) nobody can attack them if their flag is off and b) even if they do get attacked because they were dumb and left their flag on, they can just truce out for less than the cost of a loot car. As a side note, I won many of my pvp fights using completely unskilled gangers in disposable muscle/sedans. Player skill is pretty important, but hey, that's a good thing. |
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*Bastille* Posted Aug 5, 2012, 2:19 pm |
yeah definitely, this is where the flag makes things confusing.
It would be nice to be able to use it when you know you are going to be able to PvP with people, but then theres the issue of using it to hit and hide. If you hit, you can't turn off flag, other wise could be switched at will perhaps, or similar. |
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 5, 2012, 2:49 pm |
Serephe:
I think we are in violent agreement. If you want the benefits of having a PvP flag set on then you shouldn't be allowed to automatically truce. The terms of the truce should be PvP also. If you don't want to PvP set your flag to no. If you grief people in arena events and the like (or by shooting people in the back in scouts) there isn't anything anyone can do about it, other than pay you back in kind. The system doesn't need to be altered to achieve this. Why has this as yet formally unidentified individual set his PvP flag to yes? What benefit does he gain? Could he have still comitted the acts of "uncoolness" with a PvP flag set to no? As I recall the PvP flag was introduced to protect the likes of me when player on player ambushing was made possible. If your point is that you feel you have the right to attack any gang in the game without recourse to a formal agreement (as we used to have in the open wilderness duels) then that is the point I disagree. As a non-sub, my opinion is worth less than people paying for the game, but if there are any subs out there who don't want PvP they have as much right to veto your attack on them as you have to demand it. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 5, 2012, 7:25 pm |
Then your recollections should never again be trusted. The game started with PvP everywhere. Guys like me learned the game while getting out single vehicle couriers ambushed by shark everywhere. It was a pain but actually fun if you could get away/get him. After shark did that - Sam made SS a PvP free zone. Then no pvp really happened except for Darth occasionally getting an intercept (he was terrible at it). He couldn't figure out why he could never get me...it was simple I did my travels when he wasnt logged in. Only had to watch for him on arrivals and departures...BFD. Then Darth managed an epic mid wilderness intercept on what turned out to be the three loudest mouths the forums ever saw. They actually beat darth (and a couple friends it was a 3vs 3) but then bitched on the forum how unfair PvP was and how it screwed with their time(they still could have bountied but choose not to for some reason I forget). Then the f(l)ag came in. Because of one amazing intercept(in my recollection the ONLY non gates intercept ever. One of a kind. Forever making it possible for everyone to go play by themselves and watch their numbers go up in absolute peace...well until the numbers start going down and then they are bored and wondering what happened to all those crazy exciting times of strife and adventure. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 5, 2012, 8:56 pm |
What it all comes down to is that the best way to hunt a player is... impossible, they can just pay their way out of anything.
@IW: There's nothing stopping somebody from just griefing town events even with PvP flag to off. Even on a nonsub account. All it takes is for someone to act like a new guy, and they can offer a "truce" which would gladly be accepted by 99% of the population, then open up on them at point blank. Don't need skilled characters for that. It's also impossible to get them back for it. How would THAT make you feel, compared to losing to someone out near the gates of Badlands that you know a) actually cares about if they lose or not and b) can be retaliated against. |
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 5, 2012, 10:40 pm |
It has happened to me so I don't even need to get all theoretical.
I posted a public notice that they were an oath breaker at Dexters. I never trusted them again. I warned off others in that forum and posted the event ID as proof. Doubtless the forces of law and decency immediately went out and spanked their little bots for them... Nope didn't think so. They may have a new gang now, or they may have just changed the gang name (I loose track so easily anyway). Regardless some saddo with a ego problem that will pull that sort of crap will do so regardless of how much the "community" punish them. Joel. Ok, maybe it was introduced when it started happening, this isn't my whole life, so I somethimes forget the milestones in the game (if I even noticed them). I joined post Shark so I missed all that valuable "experience". Darth once chased me for 2 solid hours and it really got on my tits. I chose not to truce as I don't give in to blackmail. All he got out of it was dented armour. I ended up having to give up my subscribing, so I guess I am a little bitter about it all. Would I truce if I could do it over?. No. I'd rather not play than validate a playground bully. We have all discussed this time and time again. Consensual PvP is fine, it's the "up you jack, I'm having you now". Not interested, I can get that in my local boozer on friday night. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 5, 2012, 11:01 pm |
I remember that post; I didn't recognise the gang and assumed they were new. Not worth hunting them since they either don't know what the deal is with the game and are new, or are some idiot using a new account to grief and won't care even if they get killed.
Seriously? SERIOUSLY?
What, did Darth chase you for so long that your subscription ran out, you got fired from your job and you couldn't afford to buy a new one? Seriously, if you've got tools to avoid pvp, choose not to use them of your own will, and then complain about pvp... I don't want to live on this planet anymore. |
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*Bastille* Posted Aug 6, 2012, 2:20 am |
yeah I guess I should be prepared at all times really, PvE or PvP, takes up the same time. But, theres a chance of losing in PvP  There was never much PvP in my time here, so my comfy zone is in beating on the AI till the cows rot and die in the hot, baking sun. When I started playing, the norm on the track or the arena was a series of truce calls at the start of the event.
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Juris Posted Aug 6, 2012, 6:01 am |
If the flag was just because of Darth and he's gone, then why are we all still running from a ghost? | ||||||||
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*Snipe* Posted Aug 6, 2012, 6:34 am |
Because even if the player is gone there are more like them. And we are all afraid of the griefer that will ruin our years of work. But honestly I am on the fence these days on if I will resub again....there just isnt that much action for a group scouter anymore. Kicking back into PvP there will at least be interaction. I will take screaming obscenities in the lobby over hours of silence while people are busy grinding.....please......maybe we should make Morgan a PvP spot, have up to 10 cars enter...last standing takes the prize..something like that. I dont know, but I am in total agreement that there should be more PvP involved in a game like this. We can deal with the griefers when they come. | ||||||||
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Necrotech Posted Aug 6, 2012, 6:38 am |
Personally.. I say let the carnage resume.
Admittedly, I'd like the flag to be universal. However... IF you don't have a flag.. then you are not privvy to ANY PVP action, including leagues ,ladders, and the like that combat related. Racing and paintball are still open for ya however, as well as glad combats. |
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Aug 6, 2012, 8:54 am |
I wanted a town which would spawn a load of rare stuff not available anywhere else, but which was 100% open PvP, including returns and everything. I don't think shanty counts as evidence it wouldn't work, because shanty is such a massive pain in the ass to scout out of. |
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*Bastille* Posted Aug 6, 2012, 10:04 am |
shanty is pretty easy to scout from, you just need ammo. if you use MGs, RLs and basic weapons, you can get loads of ammo. I just shift in ammo from Texan. I do run out at times, and my convoys need to move through there with little to no ammo, adds to the spice, for PvE anyway. | ||||||||
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Aug 6, 2012, 1:55 pm |
Seems like my car is always chasing a ghost. HA! Get it? There's a ghost car and each turn you... nevermind. Stuff stuff PvP everywhere including SS stuff stuff etc. |
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 6, 2012, 6:36 pm |
I was chatting about this to Juan the other day and he pointed out that after three months with his PvP flag set on he'd been challenged once.
I see the same few people arguing to force everyone to PvP, but as usual the vast majority of players don't seem interested. Even those that are interested don't seem to be taking full advantage of the opportunities. I don't see that not wishing to allow you to have your squads ambushed should automatically exclude you from other events where a player may or may not show up. If you make a town where PvP is forced all that will happen is no-one that isn't into PvP will go there. Not sure what difference that will make to any of the issues raised here. Keep the PvP flag. Let it apply globally (SS included). Don't allow auto trucing if the flag is set. As far as I see that solves all the "problems" in a trice, without screwing the game for the PvP averse. |
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 6, 2012, 7:13 pm |
What opportunities? If there was a quick and easy way to engage in PvP, I'd spend the (very) little gameplay time I have doing it. Do you seriously expect me to sit in the lobby for 30-45 minutes, waiting for a squad to: 1. Leave a town 2. Leave a town I have gangers/vehicles in 3. Leave a town while I'm focused on the client and not checking the website, etc. Especially when I know I might not play again for a week or more. I've given up on even trying to PvP because I simply can't. |
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Necrotech Posted Aug 6, 2012, 7:21 pm |
There is a fly in that ointment....
You spoke to "He who should not be named." That is an "individual" (I use the term loosely due to the fact of multi's) who AVOIDS PVP at every oppurtunity by using every exploit, cheat, and other means to dodge that, all while having the PVP on.
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JS Posted Aug 6, 2012, 7:49 pm |
Yes, there is a quick and easy way. It's called squad challenge. Find a like minded person, challenge them, set up your automatically successful battle and have a nut. I've seen any number of people yammering on about how much they want PvP in these forums. Yet there is a pefectly reasonable and easy game mechanic to do it. What we are talking about here, as usual, is not "PvP" writ large as there is lots of PvP easily available in the game. Town events, SCL, Leagues, COE. Scads of it. It is very important that we talk about what the real issue is. Not PVP as an over arching issue, but a small part of PvP. That small part is intercepts. We are talking about intercepts. I find this distinction very important because painting people who are not interested in the intercepts part of PvP with a broad brush of "anti-PvP" is not helpful, nor is it true. Lastly, do you suppose that your limited and valuable time playing, which you don't want to waste on an intercept mechanic that you do not like is any less valuable than the persons time who does not want to be intercepted and forced to play against you? |
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Serephe Posted Aug 7, 2012, 4:00 am |
Since the pvp flag came out pvp intercepts/camp pvp has been entirely optional.
Some people WANT that PvP in their game. Some people DO NOT want that PvP in their game. Some people WANT their PvP flag set to ON while still being able to AVOID any form of PvP, which is what I have a problem with. Because of people like that, interceptions are impossible now. There is NO WAY to intercept somebody even if they have their box ticked to YES I WANT TO PVP because they can pay an extremelly minor sum to get out of it whenever they choose. I don't care if people want to avoid PvP, fine, turn off their flag. Some people suggest that without PvP on they shouldn't have any PvP interaction at all, no leagues with weapons, etc. I can see their point. But you might as well say that they can't affect the economy in any way, since they can participate in economic pvp even with the flag off. It wouldn't work. Make it simple; if your PvP flag is on, you can be intercepted anywhere. If your pvp flag is off, you cannot be intercepted anywhere. As far as mixed squads go there's many choices; Make it all on, and people who don't want to pvp get dragged into it. All off and people can use others squads to avoid pvp while attacking anyone when THEY want to. Split the squad if it is attacked; PvP players are forced to participate in PvP, non-PvP can continue on to their PvE encounter. Either way I don't really care, I just want to be able to engage in global pvp like the old days, before people started crying their big crocodile tears. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 7, 2012, 6:28 am |
What a ####ing mess just forget it. |
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JS Posted Aug 7, 2012, 9:13 am |
If the flag was a simple yes/no to intercept PvP then I have zero problem with most of wha tyou said. If it is further tied to bonuses/advantages then I disagree, in general, with the bonuses/advantages. One possible exception as has been brought up before is a PvP open town, so long as it does not impede others from getting to other areas of the game. Morgan is a great type of area for that mechanic, or Sarsfield, towns at the outer edge where PvP interceptors can do what they will. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 7, 2012, 9:15 am |
Bonuses were a stupid ####ing idea I agree completely. | ||||||||
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*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Aug 7, 2012, 4:47 pm |
I cannot believe this is stil an open topic after all these years,
Anybody seen the film ' catch 22 ' |
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FireFly Posted Aug 7, 2012, 5:07 pm |
(good to see ye) |
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 7, 2012, 7:06 pm |
Maybe it is still alive becasue it wasn't successfully resolved in the first place?
The bonuses were brought in to try to encourage people to PvP as Sam had a stated aim to increase the PvP in the game. With death Rallys, Leagues, Ladders, Squad combats etc. There is plenty of PvP if people want it. The ending of bonuses for just having a PvP flag set would end any exploiting as there would be no benefit. Instead PvP would simply be a marker for like minded fellows to identify one another. No trucing would be allowed. If it wasn't too hard to code, you could allow the bonuses to apply but only if an intercept actually occurs. If the owner of the squad has a set PvP flag, the squad is PvP regardless of the flag settings of the rest of the squad. If the squad page shows the PvP flag status, no-one can complain they were being duped. If you don't have you flag set, but decide to join a PvP squad and it is intercepted you get the same benefits that a PvPer gets (after all you are subject to the same risk). I think that fixes it. Code on 
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 7, 2012, 7:50 pm |
It's alive because we have a legion of vocal cowards flaming the forums, bragging about getting away with murder (figuratively only) and heckling players while those who would LOVE to confront these agitators and shut them down in-game instead of wasting their time in the forums simply cannot do it. |
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Sarge Posted Aug 7, 2012, 9:38 pm |
Really? A legion? 
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 7, 2012, 10:26 pm |
Fifth's got a legion.
S'in his name an everything. |
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 8, 2012, 2:28 am |
No. Not a 'legion'. That was quite an overstatement on my part. Care to read the rest of my comment now? |
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JS Posted Aug 8, 2012, 3:23 am |
Wait, Grog is alive because a legion of vocal cowards are flaming the forums? |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Aug 8, 2012, 4:36 am |
Exactamundo. Whenever the legion reaches a certain size, the Grog returns to exact vengeance and drag them to hell. 
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Aug 8, 2012, 10:47 am |
I believe that's actually the case right now. Sam? |
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JS Posted Aug 8, 2012, 1:05 pm |
LMAO, that #### is funny, pardon the French. |
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*Bastille* Posted Aug 8, 2012, 1:23 pm |
I was pretty sure thats how it works too Wolf, you only get a bonus if you actually PvP. I didn't see any change in training over the months I had it on. I also didn't see any PvP. Tried looking to intercept a few times, but Rev stays in SS |
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*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 8, 2012, 2:04 pm |
I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it. 
This. If we can identify the real issue, maybe a compromise can finally be reached... |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 8, 2012, 2:31 pm |
[quote=Iron Wraith] Even those that are interested don't seem to be taking full advantage of the opportunities.[/quote]
i see you have never actually tried to intercept other player squads. If you had you would realise how completely imaginary the 'opportunities' are. [quote=JS] What we are talking about here, as usual, is not "PvP" writ large as there is lots of PvP easily available in the game. Town events, SCL, Leagues, COE. Scads of it. It is very important that we talk about what the real issue is. Not PVP as an over arching issue, but a small part of PvP. That small part is intercepts. We are talking about intercepts. I find this distinction very important because painting people who are not interested in the intercepts part of PvP with a broad brush of "anti-PvP" is not helpful, nor is it true. [/quote] there is very little PVP in any of the game.. in most town events a bunch of people cry truce at the beginning... thereby making the pvp player look like some kind of terrible griefer. Squad combat leagues were more often pvai than pvp and so on. The truthis that ... once again.. you are trying to obfuscate a really simple issue. PVP in this game has to be squad on squad combat in the wild because that is what most people play... its the only bit of the game that has a problem because if people WANT to pvp in town events they can (and be called a griefer afterwards). and it is 'out there' in the wild that fortunes are made. The game IS for the most part scouting (although it was not the original game I know). Its what drives the game economy, keeps players playing (with a few notable exceptions). |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Aug 8, 2012, 3:08 pm |
How I look when playing a deathrace: 
How I am envisioned by other racers: 
I've actually had newish (and not-so-newish) guys freak out and not know what was going on when they were fired upon by yours-truly... They'd been told, and hadn't yet seen anything to contradict the idea that, trucing was "how things are done" and that "if players shoot each other it's only after all npcs are out." What's more, they'd been told that as a "trucer," non-truced players wouldn't fire upon them. In some circles I've got a reputation as a griefer and/or noob hunter as a result. |
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JS Posted Aug 8, 2012, 4:19 pm |
Yes, a very simple issue as you put it. Not trying to obfuscate at all. Got a bunch of PvP lovin friends who want gritty PvP with mayhem and splosions and such? Squad challenge, have at it, go crazy. Show the world the glory of PvP. Give us recordings, entertain us, show the path to fun and enlightenment. Because if thats not what we are talking about, then we are discussing intercepts as a small part of PvP. No obfuscaton at all. |
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Juris Posted Aug 8, 2012, 5:26 pm |
Fine, more PvP intercepts - because sometimes you don't want 'friendly' or 'consensual' Marquess of Queensberry PvP. | ||||||||
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Necrotech Posted Aug 8, 2012, 5:42 pm |
Huzzah!
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 8, 2012, 6:40 pm |
Groove:
What do you mean by "vocal cowards flaming the forums". Goat: If you mean that it is difficult to intercept someone who has a set PvP flag then it a fault with the intercept mechanism, not PvP itself. It should be impossible to intercept someone with the PvP flag set at no. It should be a straight contest of scouting to see if an intercept is possible against someone who has their PvP flag set to yes. Juris: <<sometimes you don't want 'friendly' or 'consensual'>> If it is consensual, you will never get what you don't want (otherwise you wouldn't be consenting). If you do want it, then it IS consensual. Your statement doesn't make logical sense. I presume that you want to be "suprised". Set you flag to PvP, tell Goat when you are going out and let him try to find you. Anyone Else: Petition Sam to release the stand-alone game and you can make the whole on-line thing as PvP and as non-consensual as you want. I won't care because I won't be here anymore. Until then I do care. |
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Juris Posted Aug 8, 2012, 7:15 pm |
Consensual: Involving the willing participation of both or all parties. Key word is BOTH. Wilderness intercepts are non-consensual. Edit: What Goat said below |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 8, 2012, 7:17 pm |
for me the most fun is being jumped by ... iir jumping someone when you both hate each others guts!
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 8, 2012, 7:46 pm |
I know that wasn't clear, but I was very angry (and still am). There isn't any flaming going on in terms of people blasting PvP. However, what I personally find absolutely intolerable is to be forced to sit idly by while some players defend incredibly questionable tactics and choices because they are totally immune to any sort of meaningful retribution. If I want to take a player down a peg (or twenty pegs), I simply can't. My only option is to argue with them in the forum because I can't get back at them in-game. I tried intercepting players, but I don't have "Glow Plug-like" patience for obsessive stalking. My idea of playing a game is most definitely NOT engaging in all behaviors listed below: 1. Spying on a player's squads for long minutes, sometimes hours, never looking away from the lobby lest you miss the only opportunity that MIGHT come up. 2. Looking through a player's gang page to know what squads, vehicles and gangers he has in the towns you could intercept him in (if he even has a presence there, or squads passing through those particular towns) 3. Opening any upcoming event in the hope he has joined and can be neutralized in a town event. --- I suggest that anyone who is skeptical about my assessment try to intercept a player. Just to see if you can do it. Pick a player -any player- and try to catch him. Don't worry: you can always truce out if you are successful. Once you've tried that, take a long objective look at how much time you spent waiting and preparing (and obssessing) for a shot at some gameplay, and compare that to the time you would have spent waiting and preparing for any given type of non-PvP event. I doubt any of you will take me up on the suggestion, but let me tell you that you hardly get to play at all if you try to PvP. PvP in DW is tailored to be so boring and tedious that no one wastes any time even trying to do it. --- Going back to my initial post about the best ways to intercept a player - and adding in specific details about the target I had in mind... I ask you this: How do you hunt a player who has his PvP flag on, but doesn't take part in town events and declines all ladder event invitations? How do I hunt down a player who is constantly annoying the community, bending the rules, will not engage in consentual PvP with me but deserves (in my opinion) to be pummeled into the Evanian sand? Sam: If the answer to the above paragraph is "you simply can't", then consider this my last period of subscription. Don't worry: you've done plenty to keep multi-account players firmly unafraid of you. They'll make up for the money I don't send your way. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 8, 2012, 7:56 pm |
Lol send me their names... Groove: Do not bother explaining it, they do not care how hard it is to do. Iron: I do remember you now, you are very much one of the very vocal minority that ruined PvP in the game. What should have happened is YOU SHOULD HAVE PETITIONED for YOUR version of the game in some sandbox from Sam. Not ruin what we had. You are firmly on my ####list now - dont join events with me. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 8, 2012, 10:15 pm |
Back when I was openly intercepting everybody, I literally had to sit at my computer for 12+ hours a day; if I got up to piss, or eat, and came back 1 minute later I could have missed the single opportunity I would have. And not long after jumping some whiney little girls outside Badlands and capturing one of their buzzers the forced truce system came into play, so now people can pay a pissy amount of cash to make those 12 hours you just spent completely wasted.
Camp PvP is pretty much useless, people close their camps off the second they feel they're losing and that their camp is in danger, regardless of the fact that it may have taken weeks to organise travels to get attack squads into position (and weeks to return them back to their positions). SCL is pretty much pointless, I think 3 people showed up to fight me total. The rest were either no-shows or AI. It also puts a heavy focus on crosstraining to do well, it really should have a total skill cap per character not a cap per skill. Squad challenges can be fun, when the opposing player doesn't decide to sneak in 3x your CR. I've made use of it in the past, it's probably my favorite form of consensual PvP. I don't count town events as consensual since most people assume you're going to truce. Town events/leagues pretty much come down to a cluster#### where a bunch of people run around like chickens with their heads cut off trying not to piss off the "big bad" and then complaining when he wins. Has potential, if I feel like taking a huge ass fire engine to the COEs and forcing everyone to attack me or die. Of course rallies are much more fun with muscle cars, where there's actually racing AND combat involved. Make PvP simple; PvP flag is on, you can be intercepted ANYWHERE, you can't force a truce. PvP flag is of, you can't be intercepted. Leave the warning on the mixed squad menu that lets people know they risk being PvP'd so they can avoid it if they choose. And for god sakes, make camp PvP meaningful; make it possible to capture camps, or put in that little minigame for resources, anything to make it actually have a reason for staying open and fighting instead of closing your gates and crying at the first sign of trouble. |
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 8, 2012, 11:27 pm |
Joel:
I was already on your #### list remember. You decided it wasn't relevant as it wasn't profitable. I'll happily play you in town events and kill or be killed. I suspect you stand to loose more than I do, but take your best shot. You may not believe this, but I have NO more influence on the game than any other individual. I am not on the rules council, I am not a marshall and I am not an economic or military big wheel, I don't go round for cosy chats or send Sam money to get my way. If I have influenced the way the game has gone is it because Sam chooses for that to be the case. It's his game. I am vocal on any subject that I think I have a valid opinion. If you think that threatening to grief me is a valid response to me holding an opinion then I think you put my argument far better than I could. I'll remind you however that at one time it was you that was accused of exploiting and I argued for you in that case. For the record I did petition for a stand-alone game. All that happened was people started bitching about it taking focus from their game (despite the fact that Scav had already done that). Add your support if you want to see me gone. Sereph and Groove: I do sympathise. It would be great if the community embraced intercepts, but they didn't. In an attemot to make it cosy enough for people to accept it was hedged about with bonus and incentives that have turned into a exploiters paradise. To state the opposite side of the coin. I had limited time to play. In the morning before work i would send off my squads for the 8 hours journey to GW. When I got back from work I would time it so that the hour or so that I had would be processing any encounters just befoer my cars arrived. Then I would turn them round and process any encounters allowing them to arrive in the small hours of the morning ready to turn them round again. I could process AI encounters in about 15 minutes as I had no guns and would run. Sometimes they caught me but mostly they didn't. painfully slowly my agangers gained scouting skill and I gained enough money to buy some vehicles. One day someone decided to jump me. I told them I had nothing and didn't have the time. In truth I though they had to offer terms of the truce, but it may have been an automatic thing. The cost was more than the value of the vehicle plus the money I would loose from not delivering so I declined. Then I had my two hour marathon of just driving away. It was boring as hell for me and I can't believe my opponent really got any fun out of it. He also decided to call some timeouts and spent a full minute on his turn because he knew I was pressed for time. I can turn around a turn against the AI in less than 5 seconds. He was hoping I suppose that I would surrender. I stubbornly refused to be intimidated by someone I couldn't even see and played it out until the end. I hadn't been keeping track of time and it was 1 in the morning before I finally escaped. That was the final straw for my spouse and that is why I cannot subscribe. My problem for having no self control, but then again the point of this game is that it is immersive. I like it too much to abandon it. If it was stand-alone I could save the game when I needed to stop. If it didn't require real-time to pass for events to occur I could play for a couple of hours and then park it. If I didn't have to wait interminably for other players to take their go each event would be shorter. I get unlimited timeouts when i am solo, so I could park the game for up to 4 hours. Against a player I get 3 lots of 5 minutes. In all honesty if I used any of those timeouts for anything other than server lockouts then I would be being an arse. It's not the fight, or the money or anything, it's the p*ssing around with some d*ckhead who's idea of fun is wasting my time. So you see it was an intercept PvP f**kwit exploiter who ruined my game. Groove: Contrary to Joels post, thank you for posting the intricacy of intercepts. Having never done one, I had no idea they were so difficult. It sounds to me that what you really want is a community that will raise up a posse against someone who violates the mores of the game and then eveyrone else can take it in turns to watch for their squads. Maybe you should be able to scout for a gang rather than a squad. I presume there is some painful CR matching shenanegans too. Perhaps the CR safeties should be off for intercepts. Trucing should definitely be off. All this however still within the framework of a PvP flag. I know we'd all love to just punish a player for being an arse, the trouble is clearly we all ahve slightly different ideas of what consitutes being an arse. Joel obviously thinks that because I prefer to play aginst the AI I am somehow undermining his fun and would gladly hunt me down and punish me for my audacity. Others think Juan deserves a kicking for playing the system. I am sure there are some who would crush Grograt for his sensoring of their posts. It would be a fun free-for-all for a few weeks and then I suspect that it would kill the game for good. Juris and Goat. You can still be jumped when you aren't expecting it as long as both of you have PvP flag set. Yes consensual means both, but your consent is taken as read. If the opponent has their PvP flag set they are also consenting. I already agreed that once that flag is set, there are no get out clauses. You fight, flee or negotiate with the other player manually. You don't get to set the PvP flag per squad, so you still may get a nasty suprise (but if you just look at who is in the lobby you get a clue). |
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Serephe Posted Aug 8, 2012, 11:41 pm |
Iron Wraith, my only problem with what you say is that you're basing it entirely on one encounter in which a person DID grief you (with purposely wasting time), which IS against the rules, and should have been dealt with directly by marshals or Sam.
If there were no marshals on and Sam was not around, you could always have simply surrendered and sent Sam a PM about what had happened (as far as time wasting goes ) and dealt with it that way. Most likely, when Sam looked into it and saw what had gone on, you would have got your stuff back and idealy that player would have been warned/punished. I don't personally care about fighting people that don't want to fight. But with all the changes to the systems that have come in over the years because of people crying about how PvP is the devil etc it's made it impossible to play the game how I (and many of the people I've played with/against in the past) want to play. You seem to have a problem with GRIEFERS, not with PvP, though. And that is a seperate issue. There are plenty of ways people can grief you without resorting to intercepting you and calling timeouts. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 9, 2012, 1:34 am |
I remember now and when I when you check your gang I see you already there. Yes we are grudged - quite heavily now. |
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*jimmylogan* Posted Aug 9, 2012, 3:09 am |
dang - I've had my PvP flag on for MONTHS and I still don't have any grudges... 
I feel left out...
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 9, 2012, 3:24 am |
jimmy, even if I tried to justify it through RP I still couldn't find the heart to attack you. If I ever intercept you I suspect I will give you money
EDIT: Iron Wraith: Time-griefing is the worst offense in my book. Not only is it forbidden in explicit terms in the game rules, it is also the worst possible attack on the PvP system because it justifies further hindrance of that style of play. As Sere mentioned: it sohuld have been dealt with by a marshal or Sam in a most severe fashion. |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 9, 2012, 4:14 am |
Groove. Him and I think it was Something else and I forget the 3rd guy TIME GRIEFED,Darth and his PvP pal when they got attacked by darth. | ||||||||
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 9, 2012, 5:38 am |
I once time grieffed Glow Plug just a bit... like 5 turns to get him talking. | ||||||||
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 9, 2012, 6:09 am |
Unfortunately, once you have a bad experience caused through a specific mechanism you tend to loose interest in that mechanism. Everything you say about Griefers applies to Exploiters.
Consensual only intercepts are a PvP expoliters paradise, non-consensual PvP is a griefers paradise. Sadly griefing isn't isolated to a single instance. It would have been difficult for me to prove that someone taking a minute per turn was intentionally time-griefing. It was irrelevant anyway as the damage was done. Experienced players may know that you can appeal to Sam to get some bad experience overturned. Inexperienced players may simply not bother to play anymore. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 9, 2012, 6:14 am |
What I want to know is what is the difference between somebody timegriefing you in a PvP intercept and somebody doing it in a town event or on your side in a group scout to you?
Your way of thinking is flawed. Griefers/exploiters should be punished, not the rest of one specific part of the game community (those who enjoy global pvp). |
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Sarge Posted Aug 9, 2012, 8:10 am |
Yes I did, I quoted the part that was funny and ignored the rest of the overstatement. As you admitted you were angry; I've posted whilst angry so I know it's mainly grief-filled fluff. We have the solution to this PVP problem with the flags and the no trucing and a gang hit option and so forth. Easily cobble it out of a few of the comments on here. But getting it implemented when we can't even vote in a rules council? Good luck.
EDIT: I see Sere has tried to sum it all up in a Suggestions post. Nice. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 9, 2012, 8:15 am |
Rules council wasn't really a good idea to begin with imo. Made even worse when some people were able to stay on RC beyond their term. | ||||||||
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 9, 2012, 5:52 pm |
Now the sensible part of the thread has been moved elsewhere (thanks Serephe). I can continue my interrogation of Joel.
Ok Joel. What exactly does Grudging entail. I am not sure how long I have been Grudged but thus far I have seen no impact. I am quite happy for you to double that level of activity. Oh what the hell, knock yourself out, treble it. What I find a little sad is that you actually bother to keep a list. I do hope you are as dilligent in real-life to things that actually matter. |
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Necrotech Posted Aug 9, 2012, 6:39 pm |
Ok... get this thread off the tangent.. and back on track.. getting out of hand...yikes. | ||||||||
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 9, 2012, 7:25 pm |
Ok back to the OP.
The best way to hunt a player is to go to their home town and watch their movements. When you identify a time they are routinely alone, go whale on them with some percussive sports equipment. the best way to deal with a troublesome GANG is to point out their vileness to the community and wait for it to rise up in indignation. When that doesn't happen because everyone is self-obsessed, put up a public bounty. Say $250,000 per confirmed kill of a "name" level ganger. You don't even have to pay up until it happens. Quarter of a million buys a lot of throw away gangers even at $1000 per pop. Some of them will get through. Then at every deathrace and combat event they participate, some newb who wants to make a name will be gunning for them. God help them if they enter ped combats. Even in races or events where they are notionally on the same side they can be rammed. In the wilderness thye will find their allies deserting them to be wiped out by the bandit targets. If they simply run rather than surrender, they can actually ensure that the enemy kills the gangers as they can't even surrender as long as one other person on their team is still confident. You can't target you own team mates, but you can target terrain near them and rockets are notoriously splashy. Better yet naplm guns apparently. Take all his tires and leave him to the vultures. Even handgrenades and napalm. Leagues will become very difficult as their opponents won't be chasing the prize or each other, just going for the kill. They will be forced to only do solo events and have no interaction with another player. You can't stop them playing PvE, but you also can't complain they are messing up your game really in that case. I am not sure it could be classed as griefing if you manage to convince 50 new players to try to wipe out another gang. They even have counter measures as they can up the bounty and turn it around. They can start a new gang though intergang transfers would need the cooperation of another player. Since the plan is to eliminate their top gangers, it needn't matter. They could even carry on with discardable ganger while their top people hide and wait for it to blow over. Regardless you have made them think about consequences, and with consequences comes reflection. |
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 10, 2012, 6:36 am |
Why was the other thread locked?
It seemed to me that there was a sensible discussion going on and then Joel started barking at the moon again. Next thing it's locked. The shame of it was that for a 95% positive dicsussion, the final comment is the idiot rantings of a self confessed griefer. Was it in response to Joel (in which case why not just remove his posts and let it continue). Otherwise I can't see what the point was. Joel: I normally refrain from personal comments as they don't really help. But in response to your comments on this and the other thread. Your parting gift to me will be your parting. No other gift would be as welcome. |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Aug 10, 2012, 6:46 am |
Other thread unlocked by me and my foolish optimism, hoping the flames and threats will cease.
But Wraith is right, the rants of a single contributor are no reason to shut down the entire thread. |
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Serephe Posted Aug 10, 2012, 7:50 am |
Just a note, I don't recall any event where Joel ACTUALLY griefed anyone. | ||||||||
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Sarge Posted Aug 10, 2012, 8:38 am |
Maybe he is one of those legion of vocal cowards that are apparently ruining the forums?
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Iron Wraith Posted Aug 10, 2012, 9:00 am |
He maintains a grudge list. He implies that he wil target players in events if they upset him. He has threatened his end game will be the way of Shark and Darth.
I judge him by his words. |
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Necrotech Posted Aug 10, 2012, 2:47 pm |
Geez.... if that is the case....
Joel has mentally griefed you already. I'm mentally griefing people right now. Jeet has mentally griefed people already. Snipe will grief people in the future... so on.... so forth.
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 10, 2012, 2:58 pm |
I am going to grief the lot of you in a minute if this doesn't stop! | ||||||||
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Aug 10, 2012, 3:24 pm |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 10, 2012, 3:52 pm |
I've been called a griefer since I won my first league. Truth is it's damn hard to grief someone if you want to, so much Sam code went into stopping shark. I have no interest in debating everyone's personal line in the sand on that.
Sam said if you have an enemy you are allowed to go at them and that is what I am going to do. I declared war on carebears, enjoy the fun and games. |
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 10, 2012, 6:13 pm |
Speaking out against Shark is the single biggest mistake I made since I started playing DW. | ||||||||
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Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 10, 2012, 6:20 pm |
I agree. He was ruthless in his slaying of newbies, which drove me nuts, but I miss a psychopathic "bad guy".
I still remember when he finally challenged me to a CGL duel in the SS Arena(each ponying a mill for a 2 mill "prize") and there must have been 20 people to watch me kill his only 2 good guys (ballistics snipers). Few times was I so thrilled. Everyone loves that stuff. |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Aug 10, 2012, 6:43 pm |
THIS is what I dream DarkWind might someday become. I didn't find it soon enough to experience it the first time around. Tragic, that. |
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 10, 2012, 6:46 pm |
too right |
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*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 10, 2012, 7:33 pm |
Oh goodness, possibly one of my top five moments was fighting alongside Goat at SS Gates vs Shark and his brother. I still have the looted chassis from that fight with its Shark decal. Halcyon days indeed. | ||||||||
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*goat starer* Posted Aug 10, 2012, 7:37 pm |
mmmmmmm happy days! |
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 10, 2012, 9:25 pm |
I should say I still think Shark was a despicable person, and back in the day I would never have imagined I would regret speaking out against him, but the bottomline is that we now have something much worse than what Shark did or could have done.
When Shark was around, he was the bad guy and he was doing bad things but could be stopped. Now the bad (economic/rule-bending) guys have free reign and no one (not even Sam?) can do a thing. [EDIT]: I should add that for my part, this whole PvP thing isn't about hurting the bad players' economy or scaring them into following the rules: it's about making it known that I have a very serious problem with their behavior, and casting doubt in their minds any time we share the lobby. |
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Necrotech Posted Aug 11, 2012, 2:22 am |
Better the devil you know...
Maybe we needed a "Shark" maybe... we do need a bad guy. But definitely we need to get back to our PVP roots |
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Serephe Posted Aug 11, 2012, 2:26 am |
If things returned to how they were originally, as in, PvP everywhere for everyone, I would spend almost all of my time with squads in SS and GW out hunting players on a first come first hunted basis.
Fun times would be had by me at the very least. |
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Groove Champion Posted Aug 11, 2012, 4:23 am |
And it wouldn't be a bad thing... The Southern towns don't offer many opportunities for encounters because the community is so small. | ||||||||
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Serephe Posted Aug 11, 2012, 4:28 am |
The real question is, on the off chance someone got their panties in a bunch because I attacked them "unfairly" would we end up back where we are with flags and safe towns and that kind of stuff? | ||||||||
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*Rev. V* Posted Aug 11, 2012, 5:32 am |
No, Sere, because I'm a reverend and I can forgive you... | ||||||||
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darthspanky Posted Apr 1, 2020, 1:11 pm |
damm i was banned when this thread was written kinda makes ya want to hunt noobs again best part is ive been here so long everyone is a noob to me.
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