*sam* Posted Jul 24, 2012, 6:52 pm	Just a quick announcement about some handweapon tweaks that will be patched in tomorrow: Rocket propelled grenade (RPG) - a new weapon - basically a single-shot ped-deployed light rocket Rifle - ammo reduced to 12 SMG is now a rapidfire weapon, the same as Gatlings - firing twice per turn. Ammo increased to 24, per-shot damage reduced (since there's now 2 shots). Ranged accuracy slightly improved. Shotgun - substantially improved damage, but it reduces quickly over distance (to represent the cone of fire). Ranged accuracy improved. Ammo reduced to 4. Pistol - ammo increased to 12. Can be fired while running with no accuracy loss (due to light weight) Molotov - rather than only leaving a pool of flaming oil, it will now cause some direct damage and splash damage on hitting Thanks to the various players who advised on these changes :-)
*DoubleTap* Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:02 pm	*sam* said: Rocket propelled grenade (RPG) - a new weapon - basically a single-shot ped-deployed light rocket [Thanks to the various players who advised on these changes :-) No, no, thank YOU!!!
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:12 pm	Sam, I know you guys in the UK don't have easy access to the fun firearms we do here in the colonies, but I gotta say... I don't know ANYONE with a puny 12 shot mag for their assault rifle. And I know a LOT of people with assault rifles. The RPG is a nice addition though!!!!! Sweet!!!!!!
*DoubleTap* Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:14 pm	The Reverend makes an excellent point. If it's a semi auto and it's clip fed, it's at least a 20 and more likely a 30. (If it's bolt action, it's probably more like 5, but I am not advocating that, that's fore sure.)
FireFly Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:32 pm	*Rev. V* said: Sam, I know you guys in the UK don't have easy access to the fun firearms we do here in the colonies, but I gotta say... I don't know ANYONE with a puny 12 shot mag for their assault rifle. And I know a LOT of people with assault rifles. The RPG is a nice addition though!!!!! Sweet!!!!!! Just imgaine it's a garand with 4 extra magic bullets or something
FireFly Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:36 pm	Or you could pretend it's one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishapore_2A1_rifle 10 or 12- round magazine, loaded with 5-round charger clips You just have to imagine that Darkwind is set in... India, lul
*sam* Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:36 pm	I don't think it's an assault rifle.. more like a sniper rifle. I don't know weapons as well as you fine Americans.. ;-) Anyhow, it's about balance and gameplay above all else.
*DoubleTap* Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:36 pm	Hmmm. Maybe an SKS. Have to look up how much that had in the clip. Edit: Or a Dragunov. Those those things are cool.
Juris Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:40 pm	*sam* said: I don't think it's an assault rifle.. more like a sniper rifle. I don't know weapons as well as you fine Americans.. ;-) Anyhow, it's about balance and gameplay above all else. Exactly right Game balance > 'realism' - this isn't Call of Duty Great job Sam
FireFly Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:41 pm	*sam* said: I don't think it's an assault rifle.. more like a sniper rifle. Sam, for your own sanity please stick to "Bolt action" or something along those lines from now on, else people might ask why the range on their sniper rifle is so short and why it's missing a scope Edit: Or I guess battle rifle could be applicable, older ones like Garands of course, not the new ones.
*sam* Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:46 pm	FireFly said: *sam* said: I don't think it's an assault rifle.. more like a sniper rifle. Sam, for your own sanity please stick to "Bolt action" or something along those lines from now on, else people might ask why the range on their sniper rifle is so short and why it's missing a scope Edit: Or I guess battle rifle could be applicable, older ones like Garands of course, not the new ones. Alright, it's a ####ing' carbine, Like the injuns had.
FireFly Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:50 pm	*sam* said: FireFly said: *sam* said: I don't think it's an assault rifle.. more like a sniper rifle. Sam, for your own sanity please stick to "Bolt action" or something along those lines from now on, else people might ask why the range on their sniper rifle is so short and why it's missing a scope Edit: Or I guess battle rifle could be applicable, older ones like Garands of course, not the new ones. Alright, it's a ####ing' carbine, Like the injuns had. Sam, A carbine is just a shortened rifle... Just sayin'... That's a carbine, and they tend to be automatic  I may or may not be messing with you at this point
Juris Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:53 pm	Could see an Assault Rifle - like a Rifle with shorter range but rapidfire like the new SMG - basically what a GG is to a MG. Does seem a bit odd that we don't have assault rifles in DW since they are one of the most common weapons on the planet. Edit: What am I saying, you just fixed the rifle-supremacy nonsense Edit2: Agree with FF below lol
FireFly Posted Jul 24, 2012, 7:55 pm	Juris said: Could see an Assault Rifle - like a Rifle with shorter range but rapidfire like the new SMG - basically what a GG is to a MG.  Does seem a bit odd that we don't have assault rifles in DW since they are one of the most common weapons on the planet.  Balance, would you like to balance a bolt/smg/shotgun against a fully automatic 30 clip assault rifle? In DW, I dont think it's possible tbh, we'd be back to the old "Assault Rifle > Everything" this patch was supposed to solve, lol  It's possible to balance, but given how DW works it would really just be a more powerful SMG making the SMG moot... would it not?
Snidely Carmichael Posted Jul 24, 2012, 8:23 pm	*sam* said: Just a quick announcement about some handweapon tweaks that will be patched in tomorrow: Rocket propelled grenade (RPG) - a new weapon - basically a single-shot ped-deployed light rocket Here's my number, call me, maybe?
Iron Wraith Posted Jul 24, 2012, 9:22 pm	Am I glad I got that GW ped combat out of the way tonight I take it all existing ped weapons with ammo changes will magically convert. Will we have to top the mags up? Will all our spare mags re-calibrate?
*jimmylogan* Posted Jul 24, 2012, 9:23 pm	*sam* said: I don't think it's an assault rifle.. more like a sniper rifle. I don't know weapons as well as you fine Americans.. ;-) Especially us SOUTHERN americans... We give the kids a .22 rifle when they get their first toothbrush.. ;-)
*Tinker* Posted Jul 24, 2012, 10:58 pm	Awesome Sam, it's like chrismase
*Bastille* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 12:34 am	yeah, groovy stuff. Quote: We give the kids a .22 rifle when they get their first toothbrush.. ;-) Learned to shoot rabbits with one of these before I learned to shoot hoops.
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 1:08 am	"Anyhow, it's about balance and gameplay above all else. " Ok Sam, that's fair enough.
Necrotech Posted Jul 25, 2012, 1:49 am	Jimmy... if that was the case... You guys wouldn't have rifles ever, and you *STILL* wouldn't have teeth past the age of 17. ~ Your loving Yankee *jimmylogan* said: *sam* said: I don't think it's an assault rifle.. more like a sniper rifle. I don't know weapons as well as you fine Americans.. ;-) Especially us SOUTHERN americans... We give the kids a .22 rifle when they get their first toothbrush.. ;-)
*sam* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 11:34 am	Does it make sense for the RPG to be very slow to reload, but that it *is* reloadable during an event?
*Longo* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 11:45 am	Sam - Maybe list the bulk on these?
*sam* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 11:56 am	The gun itself is bulk 4 weight 12, with ammo coming in at bulk 1 weight 5
Ragnak Posted Jul 25, 2012, 12:22 pm	*sam* said: Does it make sense for the RPG to be very slow to reload, but that it *is* reloadable during an event? I like that. +1
*jimmylogan* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 12:23 pm	Necrotech said: Jimmy... if that was the case... You guys wouldn't have rifles ever, and you *STILL* wouldn't have teeth past the age of 17. ~ Your loving Yankee LOL - you know the toothbrush was invented in insert name of state here ? Anywhere else and it would have been called the TEETHbrush.
FireFly Posted Jul 25, 2012, 12:44 pm	*sam* said: The gun itself is bulk 4 weight 12, with ammo coming in at bulk 1 weight 5 If it's 4 bulk and giving you only 2 reloads tops that might be to heavy, running the risk of it becoming obsolete if it only does 3/4 damage compared to a 12/24 damage per clip gun.
*DoubleTap* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 1:08 pm	*sam* said: Does it make sense for the RPG to be very slow to reload, but that it *is* reloadable during an event? Absolutely.  If you'd rather it not be reloadable, call it a LAWS rocket, which were one-shot disposables.
Juris Posted Jul 25, 2012, 2:18 pm	FireFly said: *sam* said: The gun itself is bulk 4 weight 12, with ammo coming in at bulk 1 weight 5 If it's 4 bulk and giving you only 2 reloads tops that might be to heavy, running the risk of it becoming obsolete if it only does 3/4 damage compared to a 12/24 damage per clip gun. Yep 3 bulk is probably better - an RPG two reloads and a pistol
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 3:44 pm	"call it a LAWS rocket, which were one-shot disposables. " But a lot less bulky than a loaded RPG....
*goat starer* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 4:35 pm	*Rev. V* said: Sam, I know you guys in the UK don't have easy access to the fun firearms we do here in the colonies, but I gotta say... I don't know ANYONE with a puny 12 shot mag for their assault rifle. And I know a LOT of people with assault rifles. whatever sam says surely the rifle with have is something like an M16 20 or thirty round clip BUT firing 3 round bursts that would equate to only 6 or 10 'shots' 12 seems generous when you think of it as burst fire rather than single shots. I would love to see the ped rifle be given a full auto setting where you can expend half the clip in one go.
Necrotech Posted Jul 25, 2012, 5:40 pm	Nah... RPG's are fine... just give them a 3 round reload... in RL, doesn't take long to reload at all.
Iron Wraith Posted Jul 25, 2012, 6:52 pm	Re-reading that I am disappointed that the shotgun only has a 4 round magazine. You are going to spend half your time reloading and get a maximum of 20 shots. Fine for ped arena fights, but a bit limiting for a wilderness encounter. If the mechanism supports it can I suggest decreasing the bulk and reload time of of shotgun magazines. I suspect however that fractional bulk wouldn't be feasible. I am not sure that an RPG round equates to a paltry 4 shotgun rounds. Maybe we should move away from a magazine view on ammunition and look at loose rounds. 4 shotgun cartridges do not equate in bulk to an RPG round (or even half a shotgun). If it is a magazine shotgun 6-8 rounds might be a more resonable number. Frankly I'd be happy with a sawn double barrel taking 1 bulk, doing shed loads of damage at short range and reloading very quickly. You would really need to have discrete rounds taking farctional bulk for that though.
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 7:13 pm	"I would love to see the ped rifle be given a full auto setting where you can expend half the clip in one go. " Oh, man... yeah.... anyone remember "Wasteland" from the good old days? (Yes, I am old...) I was a clip burning fool in that game...heh....
*Tango* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 7:17 pm	*sam* said: Anyhow, it's about balance and gameplay above all else. *sam* said: Anyhow, it's about balance and gameplay above all else. *sam* said: Anyhow, it's about balance and gameplay above all else.
*sam* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 7:19 pm	goat starer said: I would love to see the ped rifle be given a full auto setting where you can expend half the clip in one go. Like in Traveller where you can 'panic' fire and empty your whole clip at once and get to roll to hit with only 1/4 of them? Could be a nice idea..
Juris Posted Jul 25, 2012, 7:35 pm	The fact that the rifle image is an M-16 that really doesn't fit with how it works now. But I hesitate to suggest anything that makes the rifle better.
FireFly Posted Jul 25, 2012, 8:26 pm	Iron Wraith said: Re-reading that I am disappointed that the shotgun only has a 4 round magazine. You are going to spend half your time reloading and get a maximum of 20 shots.  Fine for ped arena fights, but a bit limiting for a wilderness encounter. If the mechanism supports it can I suggest decreasing the bulk and reload time of of shotgun magazines.  I suspect however that fractional bulk wouldn't be feasible. I am not sure that an RPG round equates to a paltry 4 shotgun rounds. Maybe we should move away from a magazine view on ammunition and look at loose rounds.  4 shotgun cartridges do not equate in bulk to an RPG round (or even half a shotgun). If it is a magazine shotgun 6-8 rounds might be a more resonable number. Frankly I'd be happy with a sawn double barrel taking 1 bulk, doing shed loads of damage at short range and reloading very quickly.  You would really need to have discrete rounds taking farctional bulk for that though. A shotgun is a CQC specialist weapon in this context, it'll probably blow the face off anyone in 1 shot at point blank (otherwise the numbers are WRONG) so I think even 4 shots is generous, lol  Think of it like this, handweapons should primarilly be balanced for ped fights and not for their anti vehicle usage, in that context a low ammo boomstick makes sense no? It's a secondary arm and not a primary one in my book. So you could carry a rifle and a shotgun for long/short range capability, or something along those lines. my .02 anyway... Edit: Your chances of taking down 4 peds would be larger with 4 shotgun bullets rather than trying to splash 4 at once and crit them all with an RPG I'd imagine. "Shotgun - substantially improved damage, but it reduces quickly over distance (to represent the cone of fire)" Think flamethrower
*sam* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 8:46 pm	Patch coming through! I have put 110 RPGs on sale in the Player market (sold by my gang) in SS, BL, and GW. Please don't buy more than about 5 each, spread 'em around! ;-)
JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Jul 25, 2012, 8:58 pm	What are the effects of rocketeer spec on the RPG, are there changes to allow rocketeer spec as a hand-gunner spec?
*sam* Posted Jul 25, 2012, 9:08 pm	I just checked, and actually no rocketeer isn't currently applied to RPGs, I'll need to do another server engine build to fix that
Juris Posted Jul 25, 2012, 9:30 pm	*sam* said: I just checked, and actually no rocketeer isn't currently applied to RPGs, I'll need to do another server engine build to fix that Can SMGs use the machine-gunner spec?
Necrotech Posted Jul 25, 2012, 9:47 pm	JuaN VaLDeZ said: What are the effects of rocketeer spec on the RPG, are there changes to allow rocketeer spec as a hand-gunner spec? Can you the flamethrower skill with the hand flamers.... Juris said: *sam* said: I just checked, and actually no rocketeer isn't currently applied to RPGs, I'll need to do another server engine build to fix that Can SMGs use the machine-gunner spec? Can we use the Sniper skill with rifles.... Can we use.... oh never mind
Fifth Posted Jul 25, 2012, 11:57 pm	*sam* said: Does it make sense for the RPG to be very slow to reload, but that it *is* reloadable during an event? I like. RPGs are in fact reloadable in real life, and are quickly becoming one of the most-used hand weapons in modern urban warfare.
FireFly Posted Jul 26, 2012, 3:35 am	*sam* said: Patch coming through! I have put 110 RPGs on sale in the Player market (sold by my gang) in SS, BL, and GW. Please don't buy more than about 5 each, spread 'em around! ;-) Out of curiosity, did someone just buy the whole stack anyway?
FireFly Posted Jul 26, 2012, 4:13 am	Just tried it by the way, 4 bulk for 3 damage per shot is to high, only getting 6 damage + pistol or 9 damage total out of 6 bulk wont work, either the damage needs to go up to 5 (bad idea) or bulk needs to go down to 3 and maybe 4 damage per shot (better idea) What I think anyway. (Vs bpu, good armor representation of what it's most likely to be up against when it matters) Or you could make item transfers I guess, so you'd have RPG teams but the damage still woundt justify the extra bulk... well maybe, depends I guess
*sam* Posted Jul 26, 2012, 9:43 am	FireFly said: *sam* said: Patch coming through! I have put 110 RPGs on sale in the Player market (sold by my gang) in SS, BL, and GW. Please don't buy more than about 5 each, spread 'em around! ;-) Out of curiosity, did someone just buy the whole stack anyway?  No, apart from one or two people, everyone bought 5 or less.
JS Posted Jul 26, 2012, 9:54 am	*sam* said: FireFly said: *sam* said: Patch coming through! I have put 110 RPGs on sale in the Player market (sold by my gang) in SS, BL, and GW. Please don't buy more than about 5 each, spread 'em around! ;-) Out of curiosity, did someone just buy the whole stack anyway?  No, apart from one or two people, everyone bought 5 or less. I tried to buy 5, it gave me one, and then they didn't show up any more.  Odd.
FireFly Posted Jul 26, 2012, 10:07 am	JS said: *sam* said: FireFly said: *sam* said: Patch coming through! I have put 110 RPGs on sale in the Player market (sold by my gang) in SS, BL, and GW. Please don't buy more than about 5 each, spread 'em around! ;-) Out of curiosity, did someone just buy the whole stack anyway?  No, apart from one or two people, everyone bought 5 or less. I tried to buy 5, it gave me one, and then they didn't show up any more.  Odd. There were only 6 left when I bought 5 Want one out of pity?
*sam* Posted Jul 26, 2012, 11:03 am	They should be easy to make in camps. I just wanted to get a few out there first..
*goat starer* Posted Jul 26, 2012, 11:21 am	will RPGs start appearing in scavenger loot? where are the scavenger chainsaws and swords? the only thing wrong with the 12 clip current rifle is the sound effect (make it a three shot burst sound and we are all good) to be fair to people who bought more than 5 lots of people don't read the forums (I have found some people who don't know they exist!)
JS Posted Jul 26, 2012, 12:57 pm	FireFly said: JS said: *sam* said: FireFly said: *sam* said: Patch coming through! I have put 110 RPGs on sale in the Player market (sold by my gang) in SS, BL, and GW. Please don't buy more than about 5 each, spread 'em around! ;-) Out of curiosity, did someone just buy the whole stack anyway?  No, apart from one or two people, everyone bought 5 or less. I tried to buy 5, it gave me one, and then they didn't show up any more.  Odd. There were only 6 left when I bought 5 Want one out of pity?  No I got one, more than I expected.
Tez Posted Jul 26, 2012, 12:59 pm	Picked up an RPG from loot earlier, will SMG's ever show up?
JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Jul 26, 2012, 3:05 pm	I've noticed that looted RPG's show as 166%, Is this to ensure survival of damage from it's owner being killed, so it appears at loot? goat starer said: the only thing wrong with the 12 clip current rifle is the sound effect (make it a three shot burst sound and we are all good) Rifles Don't have a burst mode, your thinking of a Assault Rifle which, along with normal rifles are more accurate at range then a Bolt Action rifle. A bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel is accurate and deadly for over 6 miles. During WWI there were plentry of men with high kill rates who took their targets out many miles away with bolt action rifles. Twice decorated medal of honor, Smedley Butler comes to mind.
Necrotech Posted Jul 26, 2012, 4:08 pm	6 Miles !?! with .22 ? Not even close..... a .22 is *MAYBE* (good luck on that) good up to a mile... that's with no wind, no humidity, clear LOS, and many other factors. *note* a 22LR shell has a distance of only 1.075 miles with a 28 degree angle from horizontal. In there were *NO* men in World War I nor II that " took out their targets from many miles away with bolt action rifles" The longest sniper shot ever was 1.538 miles with a .338 Lapua Magnum. Prior to that a M2 .50 Caliber Browning was used to make a 1.421 mile kill (a record that held up for over 30 years) JuaN VaLDeZ said: I've noticed that looted RPG's show as 166%, Is this to ensure survival of damage from it's owner being killed, so it appears at loot? goat starer said: the only thing wrong with the 12 clip current rifle is the sound effect (make it a three shot burst sound and we are all good) Rifles Don't have a burst mode, your thinking of a Assault Rifle which, along with normal rifles are more accurate at range then a Bolt Action rifle. A bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel is accurate and deadly for over 6 miles. During WWI there were plentry of men with high kill rates who took their targets out many miles away with bolt action rifles. Twice decorated medal of honor, Smedley Butler comes to mind.
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 26, 2012, 4:30 pm	"6 Miles !?! with .22 ? Not even close..... " He's speaking of barrel length, not caliber. "A bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel is accurate and deadly for over 6 miles. During WWI there were plentry of men with high kill rates who took their targets out many miles away with bolt action rifles." Um, no. Cite please.
JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Jul 26, 2012, 4:48 pm	I apologize, it's 600 meters not 6 miles. Theres a whole TV series you can watch called riflemen. As far as I can tell every episode is on youtube, and I believe, also linked at history channel website. yes, when i said 22" I meant twenty-two inches, however, I believe that necro was refering to .223 rounds which is a 22 long shell, what common hunting rifles in the USA use. I've pointed out the 600 meter issue because in darkwind we cant even target a car over 200 meters away with a rifle. We get sniper spec but range is still the same. The verb "to snipe" originated in the 1770s among soldiers in British India where a hunter skilled enough to kill the elusive snipe was dubbed a "sniper"
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 26, 2012, 7:08 pm	"also linked at history channel website. " Trust me on this...don't believe everything you see on the History Channel. I've had some serious facepalm moments while watching shows on there.
FireFly Posted Jul 26, 2012, 7:31 pm	*Rev. V* said: "also linked at history channel website. " Trust me on this...don't believe everything you see on the History Channel. I've had some serious facepalm moments while watching shows on there. How about discovery? I practically grew up watching their shows about WWII... (What, those maps and icons were pretty, lol  ) And lets not get into the range, you want to know the real range of light/heavy mortars?
JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Jul 26, 2012, 8:24 pm	TLC Discover and HISTory channel are all the same company I believe, their policy is they will air anything you pay them to, they dont require factuality. Do you think they would have shown the Hollywood take on "9/11", Mythbusters, or Woody Harelsons documentary "grass", otherwise? But that doesnt mean that EVERYTHING they show is bad
*goat starer* Posted Jul 26, 2012, 10:12 pm	JuaN VaLDeZ said: I've noticed that looted RPG's show as 166%, Is this to ensure survival of damage from it's owner being killed, so it appears at loot? goat starer said: the only thing wrong with the 12 clip current rifle is the sound effect (make it a three shot burst sound and we are all good) Rifles Don't have a burst mode, your thinking of a Assault Rifle which, along with normal rifles are more accurate at range then a Bolt Action rifle. A bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel is accurate and deadly for over 6 miles. During WWI there were plentry of men with high kill rates who took their targets out many miles away with bolt action rifles. Twice decorated medal of honor, Smedley Butler comes to mind. it is an assault rifle... the model is an M16
FireFly Posted Jul 27, 2012, 12:26 am	goat starer said: JuaN VaLDeZ said: I've noticed that looted RPG's show as 166%, Is this to ensure survival of damage from it's owner being killed, so it appears at loot? goat starer said: the only thing wrong with the 12 clip current rifle is the sound effect (make it a three shot burst sound and we are all good) Rifles Don't have a burst mode, your thinking of a Assault Rifle which, along with normal rifles are more accurate at range then a Bolt Action rifle. A bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel is accurate and deadly for over 6 miles. During WWI there were plentry of men with high kill rates who took their targets out many miles away with bolt action rifles. Twice decorated medal of honor, Smedley Butler comes to mind. it is an assault rifle... the model is an M16 And the shotgun model looks like a double barrel to me, the SMG is also a WWII MP40... Lets not do this goat, it'll spiral out of control fast
JuaN VaLDeZ Posted Jul 27, 2012, 3:32 am	I think my lasers were made by the Sontaran empire and brought to Evan by Dr Who
JS Posted Jul 27, 2012, 11:46 am	FireFly said: goat starer said: JuaN VaLDeZ said: I've noticed that looted RPG's show as 166%, Is this to ensure survival of damage from it's owner being killed, so it appears at loot? goat starer said: the only thing wrong with the 12 clip current rifle is the sound effect (make it a three shot burst sound and we are all good) Rifles Don't have a burst mode, your thinking of a Assault Rifle which, along with normal rifles are more accurate at range then a Bolt Action rifle. A bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel is accurate and deadly for over 6 miles. During WWI there were plentry of men with high kill rates who took their targets out many miles away with bolt action rifles. Twice decorated medal of honor, Smedley Butler comes to mind. it is an assault rifle... the model is an M16 And the shotgun model looks like a double barrel to me, the SMG is also a WWII MP40... Lets not do this goat, it'll spiral out of control fast  Way too late FF.
FireFly Posted Jul 27, 2012, 2:40 pm	JS said: FireFly said: goat starer said: JuaN VaLDeZ said: I've noticed that looted RPG's show as 166%, Is this to ensure survival of damage from it's owner being killed, so it appears at loot? goat starer said: the only thing wrong with the 12 clip current rifle is the sound effect (make it a three shot burst sound and we are all good) Rifles Don't have a burst mode, your thinking of a Assault Rifle which, along with normal rifles are more accurate at range then a Bolt Action rifle. A bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel is accurate and deadly for over 6 miles. During WWI there were plentry of men with high kill rates who took their targets out many miles away with bolt action rifles. Twice decorated medal of honor, Smedley Butler comes to mind. it is an assault rifle... the model is an M16 And the shotgun model looks like a double barrel to me, the SMG is also a WWII MP40... Lets not do this goat, it'll spiral out of control fast  Way too late FF. Not really, JS, not really
*goat starer* Posted Jul 27, 2012, 2:44 pm	FireFly said: goat starer said: JuaN VaLDeZ said: I've noticed that looted RPG's show as 166%, Is this to ensure survival of damage from it's owner being killed, so it appears at loot? goat starer said: the only thing wrong with the 12 clip current rifle is the sound effect (make it a three shot burst sound and we are all good) Rifles Don't have a burst mode, your thinking of a Assault Rifle which, along with normal rifles are more accurate at range then a Bolt Action rifle. A bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel is accurate and deadly for over 6 miles. During WWI there were plentry of men with high kill rates who took their targets out many miles away with bolt action rifles. Twice decorated medal of honor, Smedley Butler comes to mind. it is an assault rifle... the model is an M16 And the shotgun model looks like a double barrel to me, the SMG is also a WWII MP40... Lets not do this goat, it'll spiral out of control fast  yep.. its an MP40... so it IS a submachinegun never really looked at the shotgun model
JS Posted Jul 27, 2012, 2:54 pm	FireFly said: JS said: FireFly said: goat starer said: JuaN VaLDeZ said: I've noticed that looted RPG's show as 166%, Is this to ensure survival of damage from it's owner being killed, so it appears at loot? goat starer said: the only thing wrong with the 12 clip current rifle is the sound effect (make it a three shot burst sound and we are all good) Rifles Don't have a burst mode, your thinking of a Assault Rifle which, along with normal rifles are more accurate at range then a Bolt Action rifle. A bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel is accurate and deadly for over 6 miles. During WWI there were plentry of men with high kill rates who took their targets out many miles away with bolt action rifles. Twice decorated medal of honor, Smedley Butler comes to mind. it is an assault rifle... the model is an M16 And the shotgun model looks like a double barrel to me, the SMG is also a WWII MP40... Lets not do this goat, it'll spiral out of control fast  Way too late FF. Not really, JS, not really Self assessing when oneself spirals out of control may not be the best guide to knowing when one is spirlaing out of control.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 27, 2012, 3:01 pm	i think it spiralled out of control when Juan tried to claim WW2 snipers killed people over several miles
FireFly Posted Jul 27, 2012, 3:18 pm	goat starer said: yep.. its an MP40... so it IS a submachinegun never really looked at the shotgun model What I meant was that we're more likely to find rifles that only hold 12 shots and look like M4's than we are to find MP40's in the post apoc... What I'm saying is, lets not think about it alright?
*goat starer* Posted Jul 27, 2012, 3:43 pm	FireFly said: goat starer said: yep.. its an MP40... so it IS a submachinegun never really looked at the shotgun model What I meant was that we're more likely to find rifles that only hold 12 shots and look like M4's than we are to find MP40's in the post apoc... What I'm saying is, lets not think about it alright?  there are thousands of nazi war memorabilia collecting nut jobs out there... I know where the nearest submachinegun toi me is now and it an MP40... in an army surplus store.. hopefully decommissioned. If Evan is actually yorkshire (who knows?) then that might be one of them!  EDIT: in fact i think there is another one in Keighley now I come to think about it.. the place is riddled with MP40s, double barrelled shotguns, tractors, and i have a mini and a carrier van outside my house... we are prepared for the apocalypse!
JS Posted Jul 27, 2012, 4:02 pm	goat starer said: FireFly said: goat starer said: yep.. its an MP40... so it IS a submachinegun never really looked at the shotgun model What I meant was that we're more likely to find rifles that only hold 12 shots and look like M4's than we are to find MP40's in the post apoc... What I'm saying is, lets not think about it alright?  there are thousands of nazi war memorabilia collecting nut jobs out there... I know where the nearest submachinegun toi me is now and it an MP40... in an army surplus store.. hopefully decommissioned. If Evan is actually yorkshire (who knows?) then that might be one of them!  EDIT: in fact i think there is another one in Keighley now I come to think about it.. the place is riddled with MP40s, double barrelled shotguns, tractors, and i have a mini and a carrier van outside my house... we are prepared for the apocalypse! Aren't you lot holding an apocalypse right now?
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 27, 2012, 4:38 pm	"Self assessing when oneself spirals out of control may not be the best guide to knowing when one is spirlaing out of control. " All I know is that if at any time *I* am "The Voice Of Reason", you'd better have a lawyer on speed dial, cause bad things are gonna happen.....
FireFly Posted Jul 27, 2012, 6:38 pm	goat starer said: FireFly said: goat starer said: yep.. its an MP40... so it IS a submachinegun never really looked at the shotgun model What I meant was that we're more likely to find rifles that only hold 12 shots and look like M4's than we are to find MP40's in the post apoc... What I'm saying is, lets not think about it alright?  there are thousands of nazi war memorabilia collecting nut jobs out there... I know where the nearest submachinegun toi me is now and it an MP40... in an army surplus store.. hopefully decommissioned. If Evan is actually yorkshire (who knows?) then that might be one of them!  EDIT: in fact i think there is another one in Keighley now I come to think about it.. the place is riddled with MP40s, double barrelled shotguns, tractors, and i have a mini and a carrier van outside my house... we are prepared for the apocalypse! Really now, even if they might be there it makes no sense to use em... I mean, theres gotta be some empty military bases with guns lying around somewhere... Even then, we are producing these things... Why are we producing ancient MP40's!? Hell, would we even have factories tooled to produce such old weapons? What I meant was, lets not think about it
Little Tee Posted Jul 27, 2012, 7:34 pm	M4's, AR15's & M16's are capable of firing other caliber rounds with a specialized upper receiver.  Such as the .458 SOCOM Look at this linky. The linky shows the comparative size of the round to a standard 5.56mm.  Wouldn't you want this type of round if you were hunting armoured cars? If that were the case, then you would have only 10 rounds in your mag, but it would look like the weapon in-game. My point is that what Sam has adjusted for game balance actually fits very closely with whats currently available for "M16-look-a-like weapons". In other words I feel 100% happy with the changes. PS.  Since the changes when I recruit a ganger with a pistol it always seems to be unloaded...
Djihani Posted Jul 28, 2012, 3:58 am	You guys have miniguns loaded with 20 shots and still you bicker about handguns with a few bullets here or there? Might I remind you turn based games are all about the volume of fire and the effect of it during the given time period of a turn rather than exact magazine capacity? Also it's post apocalypse with re-invented manufacturing, maybe they can't make replacement springs good enough to hold magazines at full capacity? Cool changes though. Great for game balance.
JS Posted Jul 28, 2012, 4:47 am	FireFly said: Just tried it by the way, 4 bulk for 3 damage per shot is to high, only getting 6 damage + pistol or 9 damage total out of 6 bulk wont work, either the damage needs to go up to 5 (bad idea) or bulk needs to go down to 3 and maybe 4 damage per shot (better idea) What I think anyway. (Vs bpu, good armor representation of what it's most likely to be up against when it matters) Or you could make item transfers I guess, so you'd have RPG teams but the damage still woundt justify the extra bulk... well maybe, depends I guess I'm fine with 3 damage from a ped weapon, but the bulk does need to be 3.
Lord Foul Posted Jul 28, 2012, 5:46 am	Since the talk of the week is Ped weapons, I thought now would be a good time to bring this up. Weapon------------------Weight---Bulk ------------------------------------------ Crossbow---------------------8------2 Grenade Belt-----------------5------1 Hammer----------------------12------3 Hand Flamer------------------8------4 Molotov Belt------------------0------2 Paint Rifle---------------------8------2 Rifle----------------------------10-----2 Rocket Propelled Grenade-12-----4 Submachine Gun------------15-----2 Sword--------------------------6------3 Pistol---------------------------3------1 Shotgun-----------------------15-----2 These weight numbers are all over the place and should be corrected. The weights on a lot of the ammunition is even more comical. 1 pound for a pistol clip 5 pounds for 1 grenade but at the same time it's 5 pounds for a rack of 10 Rocket Launcher ammo. lol Even better, 10 Car Grenades weight 4 pounds, but again that 1 grenade weighs 5 pounds. Hand Flamer ammo, 12 pounds.lol 10 shells of Anti Tank Gun ammo, only 10 pounds. Now that's a bargain. 10 shells of Car Cannon ammo, just as good at 10 pounds. Sweet. Here's a good one Napalm Gun ammo 100 pounds, damn that would be tough to load while in combat. (Try and picture a deathracer doing reload in motion with 100 pound ammo.lol)But at the same time Heavy flaming oil jet, a bargain at 8 pounds. That Napalm gun ammo of 100 pounds, only 7 bulk. About the bulk of a medium machinegun magazine. Try and picture that.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 28, 2012, 8:01 am	FireFly said: Even then, we are producing these things... Why are we producing ancient MP40's!? Hell, would we even have factories tooled to produce such old weapons? What I meant was, lets not think about it  to be blunt FF the answer to that is in the game background, why there are so many simple engines, so little electronics... the guns you would see produced in the factories of a post-apocalyptic world would be the easiest to produce... the MP40 is famous for reliability, simplicity and effectiveness. Simple to make... simple to maintain... On those grounds the rifle model should probably be replaced with an AK47 which can be made in a shed in Pakistan. thinking about it is a very good idea... and then lets get rid of lasers and RGMs
Iron Wraith Posted Jul 28, 2012, 9:47 pm	Sten gun even more so I am still not sure what game balance issue is being addressed by making the ammo capacity if guns smaller. If you don't want handguns to hurt cars just make cars invulnerable to hand weapons. When I get stuck out in the wilderness having already lost my road battle, with injured gangers and being attacked by mutant insects that appear from nowhere and move like olympic sprinters, the last thing I need is for my pathetic handgun skill gangers to be sitting there afer 4 shots with a gun that will take longer than the rest of their lives to reload. Some of us need the sustained fire to even get a hit in.
FireFly Posted Jul 28, 2012, 11:23 pm	Iron Wraith said: Sten gun even more so I am still not sure what game balance issue is being addressed by making the ammo capacity if guns smaller.  If you don't want handguns to hurt cars just make cars invulnerable to hand weapons. When I get stuck out in the wilderness having already lost my road battle, with injured gangers and being attacked by mutant insects that appear from nowhere and move like olympic sprinters, the last thing I need is for my pathetic handgun skill gangers to be sitting there afer 4 shots with a gun that will take longer than the rest of their lives to reload. Some of us need the sustained fire to even get a hit in. Then dont fire the shotgun until you are at point-blank and garantued hit, shotguns are risk weapons like that. You've still got the "Spray" weapon in form of the SMG, you just wont have the range you used to have with the rifle. The pistol is also now 12 rounds and can be fired on the move without a penalty, that helps to. Guess what I mean is, what's the problem?
Juris Posted Jul 29, 2012, 4:07 am	JS said: I'm fine with 3 damage from a ped weapon, but the bulk does need to be 3. Yep Just had my first NPC nail me with one - 3 damage to a Windsor
Sarge Posted Jul 29, 2012, 9:46 am	Iron Wraith said: When I get stuck out in the wilderness having already lost my road battle, with injured gangers and being attacked by mutant insects that appear from nowhere and move like olympic sprinters, the last thing I need is for my pathetic handgun skill gangers to be sitting there afer 4 shots with a gun that will take longer than the rest of their lives to reload. Some of us need the sustained fire to even get a hit in. Agreed Firefly said: Then dont fire the shotgun until you are at point-blank and garantued hit, shotguns are risk weapons like that. Ahh, another, don't do it response. Where do we get these guarantees? Last time I waited for a creature to be almost on top of me to shoot my shotgun I missed. And the ganger died next round. Good advice.
Iron Wraith Posted Jul 29, 2012, 10:49 am	FF: I guess I mean what was the problem that needed to be adjusted by reducing the ammo capacity in the first place.
*sam* Posted Jul 29, 2012, 1:02 pm	Iron Wraith said: FF: I guess I mean what was the problem that needed to be adjusted by reducing the ammo capacity in the first place. It was to balance handweapons - specifically, rifles being far and away the best choice. SMGs should now be a better mid-range choice than they were.
JS Posted Jul 29, 2012, 1:33 pm	Sarge said: Iron Wraith said: When I get stuck out in the wilderness having already lost my road battle, with injured gangers and being attacked by mutant insects that appear from nowhere and move like olympic sprinters, the last thing I need is for my pathetic handgun skill gangers to be sitting there afer 4 shots with a gun that will take longer than the rest of their lives to reload. Some of us need the sustained fire to even get a hit in. Agreed Firefly said: Then dont fire the shotgun until you are at point-blank and garantued hit, shotguns are risk weapons like that. Ahh, another, don't do it response. Where do we get these guarantees? Last time I waited for a creature to be almost on top of me to shoot my shotgun I missed. And the ganger died next round. Good advice. Yeah, that is bad advice.  Problem is, with the way a % is taken off creatures, yet they still keep coming, unless you can hit it multiple times it's gonna get to you.
Iron Wraith Posted Jul 29, 2012, 1:45 pm	So who was shouting that the Shotgun was over-powered? Most armies of the world carry rifles are their primary infantry arm, it is a better weapon in most circumstances. It's magazine capacity may have been an issue, but I'd be interested to see the dialog that neutered it and promoted the SMG into its position as best weapon. I'd have increased it's bulk to 3 and left it at that. Am I a cynic for noting that rifles used to be availabe from Jakes but SMGs were a camp only item.
*sam* Posted Jul 29, 2012, 2:06 pm	Quote: So who was shouting that the Shotgun was over-powered? The shotgun had its damage, ranged accuracy and blast radius all improved in this update. Give it a few more days and I'll collect some opinion on how these changes are panning out - we can re-tweak as necessary.
Fifth Posted Jul 29, 2012, 2:37 pm	*sam* said: Quote: So who was shouting that the Shotgun was over-powered? The shotgun had its damage, ranged accuracy and blast radius all improved in this update. Give it a few more days and I'll collect some opinion on how these changes are panning out - we can re-tweak as necessary. My concern with the smaller shotgun magazine is that a character can carry ~20 rounds of shotgun ammo. But I think 4 rounnds of shotgun ammo wouldn't take that much bulk. Can multiple ammo magazines be put in one ammunition unit? IE, each unit of shotgun ammo includes 2 magazines. Or is this too complicated for the engine to handle?
Alec Burke Posted Jul 29, 2012, 3:14 pm	Iron Wraith said: Am I a cynic for noting that rifles used to be availabe from Jakes but SMGs were a camp only item. Didn't rifles only become available at Jake's after they became a lootable item? The reason being that so many were then available that people were just dumping their extras to Jake for the cash. I certainly know that when I started playing you couldn't buy rifles from Jake's - and typically had to pay a pretty steep price for them most of the time. Rifles were one of the main items being produced by the small camps to make money prior to the introduction of hand weapons as loot (which was implemented primarily for the Scavenger side of the game).
FireFly Posted Jul 29, 2012, 6:15 pm	Fifth said: *sam* said: Quote: So who was shouting that the Shotgun was over-powered? The shotgun had its damage, ranged accuracy and blast radius all improved in this update. Give it a few more days and I'll collect some opinion on how these changes are panning out - we can re-tweak as necessary. My concern with the smaller shotgun magazine is that a character can carry ~20 rounds of shotgun ammo. But I think 4 rounnds of shotgun ammo wouldn't take that much bulk. Can multiple ammo magazines be put in one ammunition unit? IE, each unit of shotgun ammo includes 2 magazines. Or is this too complicated for the engine to handle? So if a weapon can effectively one shot other characters at short range, you think it's fair to also have a lot of ammo for said weapon? The shotgun is not a primary weapon it is specialist weapon, yet you seem intent on using it as such? I'd like someone complaining to provide replays first rather than all this theorycrafting...
*Tango* Posted Jul 29, 2012, 6:40 pm	FireFly said: I'd like someone complaining to provide replays first rather than all this theorycrafting... like you did when you complained long and loud to get these changes made? meh.  the problem with this is this doesn't scale for newbies like it scales for you and me.  I was never using those last 8 shots in a clip anyway, were you? 4 events in the past month, you still play?
*goat starer* Posted Jul 29, 2012, 7:59 pm	i think 4 shotgun shells would be about the same size as a magazine for a rifle wouldn't it? It would weigh a lot less but its bulk would not be wildly different.
FireFly Posted Jul 29, 2012, 9:33 pm	*Tango* said: like you did when you complained long and loud to get these changes made? I and many others had extensive, years of experience with the old handweapon balance and the general opinion was BROKEN, you know that several people have complained long and loud about this no? *Tango* said: meh.  the problem with this is this doesn't scale for newbies like it scales for you and me.  I was never using those last 8 shots in a clip anyway, were you? Yes, as a matter of fact I did... Arena battles often end in prolonged gunfights even between vets that go trough several clips of ammo. 8 less bullets per clip can have a profound impact on the "Spray and pray" mentality of rifle fights when SMG's have twice the ammo count. *Tango* said: 4 events in the past month, you still play? "like you did when you complained long and loud to get these changes made?" Jesus tango, think things trough and you'll see yourself answering your own questions. I've been asking for this for ages and now it's finally been done. Not my fault it's when I'm not that active anymore
FireFly Posted Jul 29, 2012, 9:41 pm	And I have to ask again, why for heavens sake are you speaking like using the bloody shotgun as your "Primary" weapon? You've got more enough bulk to pack both a rifle and a shotgun with rifle, shotgun and even some spare ammo to boot. If you're caught in the wilderness with only a shotgun? That's hardly a fault of the game unbalance, specially when pistols and rifles are basically free in the SS shop these days. Also the pistol got buffed to 12 rounds now, why don't you use that at mid range and switch to the shotgun if they start to get close if you for some reason cannot afford an SMG/Rifle/Crossbow. Think a little, is all I'm asking.
*Tango* Posted Jul 29, 2012, 9:56 pm	FireFly said: Jesus tango, think things trough and you'll see yourself answering your own questions. This is just a thinly veiled insult.  Not allowed here, but I won't moderate you when I'm just winding you up. FireFly said: Not my fault it's when I'm not that active anymore  I'm just surprised you're so invested in the outcome in a game you barely play, that's all. FireFly said: Arena battles often end in prolonged gunfights even between vets that go trough several clips of ammo. You're referring to the ped pvp league that's barely attended and won by the same people year after year?  That's a miniscule part of the picture, pretty weak argument.  You can do better! Don't get all worked up, I voted yes for these changes.   Man you are so easy to bait.  Though I'd have taken the rifle to 15, not 12.
Iron Wraith Posted Jul 29, 2012, 10:14 pm	Goat: Your point is valid, but bulk is a silly measure of capacity for peds when most of your kit will hang off you on slings and pouches. Take your average WW2 assault soldier. SMG + 6-8 Mags + grenades + canteen + gas mask + entrenching tool etc. etc. It's the weight that does for you, not the bulk. For reference a box of 25 shells for a 12 bore is about 5" x 5" x 3 1/2". I don't know of a shotgun that takes an detachable magazine with only 4 rounds, even the internal tube magazines tend to be 5-8. I know of several detachables that take 8-12 and at least one that takes as many as 30 rounds (in a drum to be fair). Where smaller magazines are common, they tend to be a response to legal capcity limits rather than technical limits. I am not sure how it compares to a rifle magazine (especially when we are still unsure exactly what rifle we are comparing it with), but 4 12 bore shells laid long side in pairs isn't far off a 9mm pistol mag in dimensions. A rifle mag would be 3-4 times that size making a 12 about equivalent to a 30 round assault rifle. Loose shells can be carried on a belt (which is somethimes attached to the gun sling, or even round the butt) and you could carry 25+ without even noticing the bulk. I suspect we are falling foul of the some sort of "grenade equivalent" nonsense. Even CW dumped this as illogical and ended up allowing 6 bulk in pouches and holsters, plus 2 slung weapons even before considering grenade vests and backpacks. I'd be happy with a sawn double b, with bulk 1, 2 shots, really short range, but can't miss. A single turn to reload and a big bag of 25 shells at 1 bulk. Not sure the engine could handle it though. FF: You are just moving the point of imbalance around, not removing it. Game balance is maintained because everyone plays by the same rules. As to the previous system being "Broken" maybe you had bad experiences in ped arena fights, but that is probably more to do with the fact that the game isn't really geared to ped fights. They are too hard to control and don't seem to be able to use cover effectively. Put a man with a rifle up against a man with a pistol at almost any range and the rifleman will win (even Clint Eastwood had to cheat). That isn't imbalance, it's a fact of life. A SMG is just a pistol that uses up ammunition more quickly.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 29, 2012, 10:33 pm	Iron Wraith said: Goat: Take your average WW2 assault soldier.. i never take a soldier.. you dont know where they have been but otherwise i am sure you are right... i assume that. like most civilians in these situations people try to travel light.. dont have people shouting at them as much.. expect to remain in their cars etc... more libyan rebel that infantry grunt.. you hav eyour stuff in the car and you are terribly suprised ehen you find yourself on foot I WOULD however make strength affect what you carry
*Bastille* Posted Jul 30, 2012, 2:31 am	yeah , I agree there. You have to think about how easy it is to get in and out of a heavy armoured (improvised armourment) vehicle. You probably wouldn't have packs and stuff dangling about. They'd get in the way of driving and stuff too.
Sarge Posted Jul 30, 2012, 10:09 am	Sure the realism aspect of the argument about pouches and bulk etc all are interesting, but if we can't also apply that to the actual weapons, what's the point? Without cost as a barrier, you would carry the most death-dealing ped equipment you could carry if you thought you might end up on foot. You would scoff at the man trying to sell you a rifle magazine with only 12 capacity. "I have a whole load of 20 bullet mags round here SOMEwhere. Or at least I did last week..." Game balance is a huge, hard to pin down art form, but I don't think it serves the game much to break the immersion as much as these tweaks do. Something that makes ped weapon choice interesting, but means not everyone carries a rifle. Like using strength or speed to modify each weapons' ability - so some gangers are better with a shotty or SMG than rifle, some can't use either, but a pistol will do. This would mix up which is important without the need to suddenly make rifles only have a 12 clip, or whatever... Though it could also work with the 12 clip rifle mag.
*sam* Posted Jul 30, 2012, 11:24 am	Sarge said: Like using strength or speed to modify each weapons' ability - so some gangers are better with a shotty or SMG than rifle, some can't use either, but a pistol will do. This, I like! So a low strength ganger would be inaccurate with high-recoil ped weapons, and a low dex ganger would be inaccurate with long-range weapons.
Tez Posted Jul 30, 2012, 11:51 am	& high strength gangers can carry loads of guns, ammo & dual wield RPG's?
Fifth Posted Jul 30, 2012, 1:37 pm	*sam* said: Sarge said: Like using strength or speed to modify each weapons' ability - so some gangers are better with a shotty or SMG than rifle, some can't use either, but a pistol will do. This, I like! So a low strength ganger would be inaccurate with high-recoil ped weapons, and a low dex ganger would be inaccurate with long-range weapons. Seconded!
JS Posted Jul 30, 2012, 2:07 pm	Tez said: & high strength gangers can carry loads of guns, ammo & dual wield RPG's? Some of my mutants have 4 arms...
*goat starer* Posted Jul 30, 2012, 2:15 pm	Sarge said: Sure the realism aspect of the argument about pouches and bulk etc all are interesting, but if we can't also apply that to the actual weapons, what's the point? Without cost as a barrier, you would carry the most death-dealing ped equipment you could carry if you thought you might end up on foot. the other barrier nobody is considering is vehicle bulk allowances... the amount a ped can carry is the amount that does not significantly increase THEIR bulk. At the moment each character takes up 20 bulk including their guns, ammo etc. I would be all in favour of stronger characters being able to shove bags of ammo around them and carry a Rambo style arsenal on their back if it severely impacted on the bulk that character takes up in the vehicle. ------------------ I agree that there should be penalties and benefits for different ped stats.... does using certain ped weapons currently modify character speed? If it doesn't it should in terms of where they fire in the turn sequence... an RPG would be negative.. a pistol highly positive... smg neutral.. rifle and shotty negative etc
Iron Wraith Posted Jul 30, 2012, 4:31 pm	Hmm ok, maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting that we carry backpacks. I was suggesting that when you carry anything it will be in pouches or webbing and that bulk isn't the way to calculate it. Ideally the bulk the ped carries should count against the bulk limit of the car. Perhaps though the bulk of some items is too high (pistol mags for example). Do you think carrying 3 shotguns or rifles as your allowance would be the same bulk as a pistol in a holster and 5 spare mags. Having to regularly fit long arms ino my car I can tell you they are a pain to fit round other things. From my view the average insurgent usually has an assault rifle on a sling and several mags in pouches. Unless you subscribe to the FFs strange concept of Primary and secondary long arms, the secondary arm is going to be a pistol with maybe a knife as a fall back. The idea of carrying a "spare" shotgun for close up work is faintly ludicrous. A shotgun is a perfectly legitimate primary weapon in the right circumstances (point man, CQB, deck actions). Other than in Aliens I don't think I have seen anyone carrying a shotgun as well as a rifle for combat (though double guns might have a rifle and a shotgun barrel for hunting). Also other than in "The Last Boy Scout" I have never ehard anyone refer to having a surfeit of ammunition in their magazine as a 'problem'. I suspect you mean the problem is the surfeit in other peoples magazines and that only happens in ped v ped combats. These are unusual events and I'd hate to see the day-to-day effect of handguns in the game modified to correct some percieved problem that is more likely and issue in event implementation.
Iron Wraith Posted Jul 30, 2012, 4:45 pm	The idea of weapon types being tailored to stats is appealing, but I suspect flawed. Strength isn't ususally an issue with guns, it is their primary benefit over muscle powered projectile weapons. RPGs won't have any recoil, is the pistol a .32 or a .5 magnum, how heavy, how long is the barrel. All these things will affect the effective recoil more than the strength of the shooter. Do rifles need high dex or low. They are generally aimed more than shotguns (which are pointed) but their length makes them more stable than pistols. Are they assualt rifles firing bursts or autoloaders like Garands. Before you start assigning stats to things I think you need to put a marker in the sand as to what the guns are (using the models is as good a way as any). You don't need to make it Medal of Honor detailed, but it makes deciisions easier. If you choose the M16 as the rifle, you can go and look up the stats on the internet and sqaush any speculation. Use the numbers as given and sod balance. If a rifle turns out to be the most useful in the environment we use them in, then sobeit. There will be others who use their SMGs (MP40) in an inovative way and for them the SMG will be best. I may have a ganger armed with 6 pistols (Colt M1911?) so I eliminate reload time entirely. My choice if I feel I can get sufficient benefit out of it. You'll need to decide if a shot from the SMG is a burst or a single bullet (MP40 didn't have a selector as far as I know, so 3 round burst seems reasonable). A 32 round magazine gives you about 10 bursts (with the odd wasted round). A second shot seems excessive. If you stick to reality other people can find their own balance. If they can't it is because they arn't good enough
*goat starer* Posted Jul 30, 2012, 4:46 pm	personally i would restrict all characters to one main weapon and a pistol... its a bit stupid hat its quicker to unsling one rifle and take out another- rather than reload the one in your hand.
FireFly Posted Jul 30, 2012, 8:09 pm	Iron Wraith said: If you stick to reality other people can find their own balance.  If they can't it is because they arn't good enough If you stick to reality, you'll have an extremely unbalanced game... Cause' balance doesn't exit in reality
Iron Wraith Posted Jul 30, 2012, 10:30 pm	Ok FF let me sock you with this paradox. The game content is fantasy, but the game mechanics are reality. Thus by your words balance in the game mechanics is impossible. Gimme back my ten round magazine
Necrotech Posted Jul 30, 2012, 11:15 pm	Just whatever you do.... do *NOT* loot the RPG ammo... Breaks your vehicle squad for next event if loaded in there. example, you go to positition your vehicle(s) that have it freshly looted... insta-client crash.
Serephe Posted Jul 31, 2012, 1:14 am	Until all the guns are equally as effective at each specific range as each other, doing the same amount of damage per shot and having the same ammunition capacity, they will never be balanced. Personally I'd rather to see characters not including weapons in their bulk; rather adding the weapons to the cars bulk. Then the character bulk would be left for ammo, reloads, first aid kits, whatever. Boost their space so you can make shotgun shells 1 bulk, rockets 10, whatever. If I have to choose between an RPG and 2 reloads for ~9 damage, or a rifle that can do 12 damage before it has to reload, or an SMG that can do even more before it needs to reload, I know what I'll choose -- the weapon that can deal the greatest damage before I am out of ammo. Isn't that the problem the changes were meant to fix? The rifle being able to deal the most damage? As an example: Billy Bob Main weapon: RPG Secondary weapon: Pistol 3 RPG rounds @ 10 bulk each 4 pistol magazines @ 5 bulk each Light Body armor @ 25 bulk Small Fire extinguisher @ 25 bulk Obviously I just pulled these numbers out of my arse but you get the idea. Now if someone wants to take a rifle and a shotgun or a rifle and an RPG just let them. Make the bigger guns heavier. Make weight slow people down on foot more. Sure you might want a guy fully kitted out with the "best" stuff but it won't do him much good if he has to run away.
Lord Foul Posted Jul 31, 2012, 1:25 am	*sam* said: Sarge said: Like using strength or speed to modify each weapons' ability - so some gangers are better with a shotty or SMG than rifle, some can't use either, but a pistol will do. This, I like! So a low strength ganger would be inaccurate with high-recoil ped weapons, and a low dex ganger would be inaccurate with long-range weapons. I believe you'll be playing with fire if you go this route. At most stats should have a minor effect when compared to a characters HG skill. Skill overrides stats in my opinion.
JS Posted Jul 31, 2012, 4:13 am	Lord Foul said: *sam* said: Sarge said: Like using strength or speed to modify each weapons' ability - so some gangers are better with a shotty or SMG than rifle, some can't use either, but a pistol will do. This, I like! So a low strength ganger would be inaccurate with high-recoil ped weapons, and a low dex ganger would be inaccurate with long-range weapons. I believe you'll be playing with fire if you go this route. At most stats should have a minor effect when compared to a characters HG skill. Skill overrides stats in my opinion. As long as the effects are subtle and not overwhelming, this idea has a lot of merit. Make strength effect how much they can carry. Let the bulk add to the character bulk after some baseline (20 is the current one) which allows a couple of wepaons for "free" and anything over that limit is adding to character bulk. Have different weapons modified slightly by stats. Have the speed (firing order) of weapons modfied by kind of weapon. Lots of work in there I'd imagine, which then begs he question.  To what end?  Are we all running around with ped gangs?  Still, some good ideas IMO.
FireFly Posted Jul 31, 2012, 4:30 am	In other words, #### over anyone that didnt apply to the selective breeding school of recruitng...? Yay?
JS Posted Jul 31, 2012, 4:43 am	FireFly said: In other words, #### over anyone that didnt apply to the selective breeding school of recruitng...? Yay? what?
Serephe Posted Jul 31, 2012, 4:48 am	People who don't hire/fire spam are already "####ed over" anyway, what difference would it really make FF? A character with 80+ in every stat is already better by far than one with low stats. Point buyin for characters would stop people from repeated hire fire until the RNG gets them something amazing, but at the same time takes a lot of personality away from individual characters. But then again now that we're packing gangs of 60-70 people, they don't have a lot of individuality anyway.
Iron Wraith Posted Jul 31, 2012, 6:00 am	Speak for yourselves, my gang has bags of personality, it's limbs we lack ;
*Bastille* Posted Aug 1, 2012, 1:00 am	There is point to that serephe. If you fire a guy, you can't hire another for a week. Naye! a month. make it two.
*Rev. V* Posted Aug 1, 2012, 3:51 am	"Skill overrides stats in my opinion. " I agree with that. My sister is pretty tiny. She is gunslinger AMAZING with firearms. I'm serious, it's pretty crazy.
*DoubleTap* Posted Aug 1, 2012, 2:08 pm	*Rev. V* said: "Skill overrides stats in my opinion. " I agree with that. My sister is pretty tiny. She is gunslinger AMAZING with firearms. I'm serious, it's pretty crazy. High dex.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 1, 2012, 3:26 pm	*sam* said: Anyhow, it's about balance and gameplay above all else. Thank you for bringing these changes Sam! I'll be quite happy to outfit my gangers with a variety of weapons now instead of simply handing them rifles when I decide to keep them. Great work!
Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 1, 2012, 7:51 pm	Groove Champion said: *sam* said: Anyhow, it's about balance and gameplay above all else. Thank you for bringing these changes Sam! I'll be quite happy to outfit my gangers with a variety of weapons now instead of simply handing them rifles when I decide to keep them. Great work! Yes This was great Sam listened (mostly to FF actually, weird to see him bitchin) to make ped weapons better. Kudos Sam.
Tez Posted Aug 1, 2012, 9:19 pm	Just used a shotgun at around 20-30 metres, ripped off a leg What.
*Tango* Posted Aug 1, 2012, 10:06 pm	Tez said: Just used a shotgun at around 20-30 metres, ripped off a leg What. Working as intended.
*Tinker* Posted Aug 1, 2012, 11:45 pm	*Tango* said: Tez said: Just used a shotgun at around 20-30 metres, ripped off a leg What. Working as intended. IDK Is it the kind of shoty that shoots them big bullets then? I thought it was the kind that shot things full of pellets and did more soft damage, especially at short range, oviously i don't know anything about shotguns.. is 20-30 meters (65-98 feet) considered killing range for spread-fireing shotguns?
Fifth Posted Aug 2, 2012, 1:05 am	*Tinker* said: *Tango* said: Tez said: Just used a shotgun at around 20-30 metres, ripped off a leg What. Working as intended. IDK Is it the kind of shoty that shoots them big bullets then? I thought it was the kind that shot things full of pellets and did more soft damage, especially at short range, oviously i don't know anything about shotguns.. is 20-30 meters (65-98 feet) considered killing range for spread-fireing shotguns? Depends on the spread settings. Some shotguns have a choke that can vary the spread from narrow (to hit something further away) or wide (to get something closer). I always figured the shotguns in game were solid slug, since it doesn't seem capable of hitting multiple targets like a shot round (that's the round with the pellets) would. And a solid slug seems easier to code. And with the size of some of the critters running around Evan, I'd certainly use a solid slug - that's what you use if you want  to take down a bear or a car.
FireFly Posted Aug 2, 2012, 2:08 am	Joel Autobaun said: Groove Champion said: *sam* said: Anyhow, it's about balance and gameplay above all else. Thank you for bringing these changes Sam! I'll be quite happy to outfit my gangers with a variety of weapons now instead of simply handing them rifles when I decide to keep them. Great work! Yes This was great Sam listened (mostly to FF actually, weird to see him bitchin) to make ped weapons better. Kudos Sam. Wait what? I'm not bitching at the changes, they are a giant leap for DW in the right direction... I'm bitching at anyone daring to bitch at the changes, and the RPG is honestly a bit to heavy/low damage  I still wish something was done to the crossbow... it's still essentially just a rifle with +1 damage of no real difference at all.
Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 2, 2012, 2:20 am	The crossbow has a lot more range(accurate) than a rifle. Also results in a KO or Kill often.
*Tinker* Posted Aug 2, 2012, 8:01 am	i'd also like the crit that rips off heads of the rifle removed, use it for the shotgun or something.
Tez Posted Aug 2, 2012, 2:39 pm	Just used the shotgun again, this time at 60m, blew off a head. What.
Juris Posted Aug 2, 2012, 4:24 pm	Joel Autobaun said: The crossbow has a lot more range(accurate) than a rifle.  Also results in a KO or Kill often. Crossbow/shotgun combo might be perfect
JS Posted Aug 2, 2012, 4:44 pm	Juris said: Joel Autobaun said: The crossbow has a lot more range(accurate) than a rifle.  Also results in a KO or Kill often. Crossbow/shotgun combo might be perfect lol, my characters have been killed by NPC crossbows more often than any other ped weapon.
Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 2, 2012, 5:19 pm	*Tinker* said: i'd also like the crit that rips off heads of the rifle removed, use it for the shotgun or something. You mean cave in the skull?  That's the only kill shot of a rifle.(cr HCR too)
FireFly Posted Aug 2, 2012, 6:54 pm	Tez said: Just used the shotgun again, this time at 60m, blew off a head. What. Sounds like there are some issues with the "Less damage over distance" part of that weapon... I'm surprised it's even hitting at 60m
Juris Posted Aug 2, 2012, 7:41 pm	FireFly said: Tez said: Just used the shotgun again, this time at 60m, blew off a head. What. Sounds like there are some issues with the "Less damage over distance" part of that weapon... I'm surprised it's even hitting at 60m  Thought you weren't bitching
FireFly Posted Aug 2, 2012, 8:19 pm	Juris said: FireFly said: Tez said: Just used the shotgun again, this time at 60m, blew off a head. What. Sounds like there are some issues with the "Less damage over distance" part of that weapon... I'm surprised it's even hitting at 60m  Thought you weren't bitching Not bitchin', Speculating on this bug bubble we got going here, cash out while you can!!
*goat starer* Posted Aug 2, 2012, 8:33 pm	FireFly said: Juris said: FireFly said: Tez said: Just used the shotgun again, this time at 60m, blew off a head. What. Sounds like there are some issues with the "Less damage over distance" part of that weapon... I'm surprised it's even hitting at 60m  Thought you weren't bitching Not bitchin', Speculating on this bug bubble we got going here, cash out while you can!! bitching about the big bug bubble!
Groove Champion Posted Aug 2, 2012, 9:18 pm	Ya, stop bitching FF.
Fifth Posted Aug 3, 2012, 12:39 am	Tez said: Just used the shotgun again, this time at 60m, blew off a head. What. A solid slug can travel that far. And retain enough force to do exactly that. You got lucky, I expect.
*Bastille* Posted Aug 3, 2012, 2:06 am	Joel Autobaun said: *Tinker* said: i'd also like the crit that rips off heads of the rifle removed, use it for the shotgun or something. You mean cave in the skull?  That's the only kill shot of a rifle.(cr HCR too) Can't you also get the shot through the neck, tearing off his head? I thought so anyways. HCR, I hit shins more than anything. How I shoot a guy through the roof and hit his shin.. I don't wanna know what that guy was doing in his car.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 3, 2012, 8:30 am	Fifth said: Tez said: Just used the shotgun again, this time at 60m, blew off a head. What. A solid slug can travel that far. And retain enough force to do exactly that. You got lucky, I expect. A solid brain slug... anything less is an imitation!
Tez Posted Aug 3, 2012, 10:34 am	Just happened again, roughly the same distance. This aren't done on supergangers, these are done from gangers with around 30 handguns, thats it. All are first shot hits aswell.
Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 3, 2012, 4:04 pm	Tez said: Just happened again, roughly the same distance. This aren't done on supergangers, these are done from gangers with around 30 handguns, thats it. All are first shot hits aswell. Tez is right...shotgun is a bit of a superweapon now. I was in an arena combat with my scav gang and they annihilated cars using shotguns.  never missed at ranges a rifle would miss at (less than 20 handguns range ~80).
Iron Wraith Posted Aug 4, 2012, 8:55 am	So are we rolling this back? Shotgun should be lethal at < 20 yards, dangerous out to 50 yards and pretty much ineffective beyond that. Shotguns should be firing buckshot, not slugs. At close range they'll hit one target lots, at longer range they'll potentially hit lots of targets that are close together, but each target won't get hit by much. A shotgun will be putting out 12 small shot each with somewhat less energy (damage) than a pistol bullet. At < 10 yards you'll get hit with most of them. At 50 yards plus you'll get hit by one or two of them. Byeond that you might get hit by one. Range doesn't really affect your chance to hit with an open choke shotgun as it's like pointing a torch (comparing with a rifle where if you aim 6 inches off you'll hit six inches off). All that changes is the diminishing energy of the small shot and the the number you'll be hit by (which could be zero). At longer ranges this is a lottery. Their strength is the ability to snap shoot with greater confidence than with a single projectile weapon, the massive damage potential at close range is a side benefit. If you are going to fire slugs then you may as well use a rifle with hollow points.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 4, 2012, 12:00 pm	Tez said: Just happened again, roughly the same distance. This aren't done on supergangers, these are done from gangers with around 30 handguns, thats it. All are first shot hits aswell. for a pedder 30 skill is a super ganger!  lol. Even before the tweak I had boon blow off my head at 125m with a shotgun.  Only differance I see now is that it has better accuracy and less shots. Im not sure if I agree with the tweak on the shotgun but i dont see it doing MORE damage...  just doing it more often and only being able to do it half as many as before.
FireFly Posted Aug 4, 2012, 6:44 pm	Iron Wraith said: So are we rolling this back? Or sam could just fix the obvious bug in his code? He already mentioned that damage would drop over range and it obviously does not, hardly constitutes a full rollback.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 4, 2012, 11:45 pm	Groove Champion said: Fifth said: Tez said: Just used the shotgun again, this time at 60m, blew off a head. What. A solid slug can travel that far. And retain enough force to do exactly that. You got lucky, I expect. A solid brain slug... anything less is an imitation! i have many brain slug guns best type
*Boonwolf* Posted Aug 5, 2012, 4:32 am	All the chatter about what the shot gun shoots, my best guess is 4-6 pellet steal shot. What ganger in ther right minde would take a gun with bird shot in it to defend against cars and hard shelled critters. With a good choke and a good load of buck shot us sothern boys can 1 shot 1 kill a deer at 60M while spitting tobacco.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 5, 2012, 5:47 am	What about while eating Live Scorpions? (yes boon has realy done that... FYI)
Iron Wraith Posted Aug 5, 2012, 8:03 am	Boon: Where did anyone suggest that the shotgun should be using bird shot? If you are planning to shoot cars that have armour, you shouldn't be using shotguns at all. Killing cars is all about penetration, not really a shotguns forte. Big holes in soft stuff yes, any sort of hole in hard stuff no. FF: If you chnage one aspect of the weapons "tweak" you ubdermine the validity of all changes. It isn't just 1 bug, if so we'd be reporting it in the bugs section. I am not sure of the fairness of introducing such a fundamental reworking of handweapons in the middle of the Ped Combat League in the first place.
Serephe Posted Aug 5, 2012, 8:11 am	Shouldn't really be using rifles, pistols, crossbows or SMGs either when fighting an ARMOURED car. RPG's should be more powerful per shot vs vehicles, other weapons should be useless until the vehicle is (near)breached or vs other softies, or at point blank range where the bullet(s)/buckshot/slug/bolt has lost little of the energy behind it.
Iron Wraith Posted Aug 5, 2012, 8:31 am	I agree completely Serephe, but I said that at the top
Serephe Posted Aug 5, 2012, 8:50 am	My bad, all I've seen in the past many posts is shotgunshotgunshotgun. It was a worthless piece of junk before, considering how limited its ammo supply seems to be I'm glad that it has a bit of power to it. I haven't personally had the chance to use it so I'll hold off crying for nerf.
*Boonwolf* Posted Aug 5, 2012, 10:55 am	I wasn't stating any thing other than annoyance to all the people saying the range of the gun was to great while in all factuality it's about average for the weapon with proper settings. As for the RPG seemed a bit weak didn't even acheav a 1 shot kill against FL sand slug. But I will have to test it more befor I can have opinion on it.
Iron Wraith Posted Aug 5, 2012, 11:11 am	Now this I can comment on with specific experience. In my misspent youth I tried many creative methods for getting rid of slugs. Explosives (firecrackers) applied externally don't do much, the slime on the slug protects the slug against flame and heat. Straight concussive damage is equally ineffective as they spring back seemigly unharmed. The only effective method was puncturing the outer skin at which point the slug turns itself inside out. You could achieve that with an explosive as long as it was INSIDE the slug. Not sure the RPG does that. Alternatively a rifle should do the job as effectively, perhaps smaller calibre (SMG, pistol and shotgun) should bounce off more. Hmm, good job my mum won't be reading this.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 5, 2012, 12:00 pm	Iron Wraith said: Boon: Where did anyone suggest that the shotgun should be using bird shot? If you are planning to shoot cars that have armour, you shouldn't be using shotguns at all.  Killing cars is all about penetration, not really a shotguns forte.  Big holes in soft stuff yes, any sort of hole in hard stuff no. FF: If you chnage one aspect of the weapons "tweak" you ubdermine the validity of all changes.  It isn't just 1 bug, if so we'd be reporting it in the bugs section. I am not sure of the fairness of introducing such a fundamental reworking of handweapons in the middle of the Ped Combat League in the first place. in a post above Iron Wraith suggested that the shotgun was using "buck shot"  which is the 12 guage equivilent to the .410 "bird shot".  The fact of the matter is that a CAW shotgun (combat assault weapon) does not use Buck or Bird shot.  The CAW uses what is refered to as Steel Shot.  Im not sure if it is really steel but unlike Buck or Bird shot, it is not lead.  It will perforate a kevlar vest and shear through light armor.  It is larger and more resilient than lead shot.  Lead shot is for shooting small game.  Steel shot is for shooting people. I would think, since we dont get to choose the ammunition we use in our weapons, then the default would be the type of round normally used for the tactical environment.  In this case "armor and people".  For example, if conducting a silent building entry operation would you really only be using the Federal brand .22 in your close in weapon?  it's muzzel velocity is low enough that it wont penetrate more than 2mm RHA.  That brand would be utilized for combat inside an aircraft while airborne, or the sub sonics rounds...  For tactical entry you would want a higher muzzel velocity for more energy transfer on a quiet weapon.  The same goes for your ganger weapons.  If my guys are going out into the wild they would bring a 10 Gauge with Steel shot for splatter work, an SMG for suppression, and a rifle (or in DW's case a crossbow) for ranged work. But I do think the damage for the shotgun is steep.  I dont like getting my legs blown off on every shot.  But then again the SMG blows off a leg and an arm in 1 turn now.  fun fun fun!
Serephe Posted Aug 5, 2012, 1:22 pm	I'm not a huge fan of how regular crits for weapons are in general. Both the kill crits and X loss crits. But it seems especially poorly balanced as far as hand weapons go. Exceptions of course with cannons and explosive weapons scoring direct hits, I'm fairly sure they'd make a hell of a mess. Headshots with weapons that fire bullets would almost certainly kill too of course, but I'd expect there to be more torso hits than head hits. It's a very simplified damage system to be sure. Still, it's all good fun.
Iron Wraith Posted Aug 5, 2012, 1:32 pm	Errr. No. The 12 bore equivalent of .410 birdshot is also birdshot. Buckshot is significantly larger. It is called that because it is used for hunting deer, the clue is in the name. The largest 0000 buckshot is .38" diameter and the 0 I was referring to with the 12 balls per cartridge is .32". It should be noted that .32 is on the limit of what would be classed as a military calibre the russians used to favour it, but most other armies considered .38 to be a minimum. That not withstanding a good shotgun cartridge will generate about 50% more energy in each of those .32" balls than would conventional pistol of that calibre (moving it closer to the military spec). All 12 hitting you will ruin your day. Ironically the russians special forces favoured small calibre weapons as they actually penetrate conventional kevlar weave body armour better then larger rounds. If you need a mind model consider the difference between trying to pop a ballon with a blunt pin and nail. Steel shot is just shot made of steel rather than lead. It is generally used for environmental reasons rather than for any supposed ineffectiveness of lead. Modern armies have to be suprisingly sensitive to the environmental impact of their weapons as the vast majority of ammunition is expended on it's home soil in training. Lead pollution is just as dangerous to soldiers as civilians. Lead also doesn't deform as much as is commonly supposed on strking armour. Having fired lead ball from a shotgun at steel armour (English civil war breastplate, 18 gauge steel and case hardened) I can tell you that it punched right through no problem and the dished out bit of steel that was knocked out of the armour was hemispherical, so the armour deformed to the ball not vice-versa. It was a single ball from a 20 bore blackpowder gun so I cannot comment of how effective a shotgun should be against Dark-Wind car armour, but I don't see it being significantly less effective than a steel equivalent. Frankly if it doesn't penetrate it doesn't matter if it is lead or steel, you are still going to be knocked on your arse. If it does penetrate then a raggedy ball isn't going to be less effective than a nice round one. The ball we dug out of the tree that was supporting the armour was hemispherical in front and badly deformed behind, the heat generated on the dead stop having melted the metal (and possibly re-cast it in the dish of metal at the front). As DW armour is ablative rather than simply resistive the transfer of energy would be the same.
Tez Posted Aug 6, 2012, 11:52 am	Had more time with the shotgun, so far only blown off heads & legs for me, does it do anything else?
*Bastille* Posted Aug 6, 2012, 12:08 pm	I just shot 2 loads into a turtled motorhome and they was still kickin'. They did say they didn't feel too good. Rip a rat up pretty good. Pretty limited use of the new guns so far. RPGs look cool
*goat starer* Posted Aug 8, 2012, 4:24 pm	Tez said: Had more time with the shotgun, so far only blown off heads & legs for me, does it do anything else? it blows off your own legs
Necrotech Posted Aug 8, 2012, 4:58 pm	Shotgun was better accuracy now than the rifles... even at extreme ranges. Not sure if that is quite right, especially if it supposed to be buckshot.
DieselCougar Posted Aug 8, 2012, 10:41 pm	It should be easier to hit with a shotgun then a rifle, with a shotgun your not shooting this thing, your shooting this area. I personally would have made the shotgun a easy to hit with but low damage weapon. It would be the master of the close range unarmored battle. Utterly suck at everything else though. Although truth be told, modern military(and some extent Law enforcement) don't really have much to do with shotguns unless it's for the versatility of the ammo. Non lethals like stink ball rounds or beanbags, tear gas rounds, door breachers, sabot slugs, flamethrower rounds, etc. There's a lot you can do with a shotgun, but straight up I'd take a rifle any day expect a .223. Preferably my M1.
*Bastille* Posted Aug 8, 2012, 11:59 pm	Quote: ... even at extreme ranges. yeah, thats not right.
Serephe Posted Aug 9, 2012, 12:00 am	Maybe it's a shrapnel cannon?
*sam* Posted Aug 9, 2012, 10:45 am	*Bastille* said: Quote: ... even at extreme ranges. yeah, thats not right. what distances are we talking about here?
*Bastille* Posted Aug 9, 2012, 10:57 am	Im taking that from what necro said, not my own experience. Ive only tried at about 40m myself. Necro said: Shotgun was better accuracy now than the rifles... even at extreme ranges. I always thought rifle accuracy was about right before. Someone with some skill can shoot a target at steady velocity, at a good few hundred yards. No real idea what a scatter gun can do. 100m maybe?
Necrotech Posted Aug 9, 2012, 1:37 pm	I have visually seen these ranges from 50m to 90m virtually dead on with a nearly 0% miss percentage, in 5 out of 5 cases. looking at ganger handgun skill those ganger had 30 or less skill. *sam* said: *Bastille* said: Quote: ... even at extreme ranges. yeah, thats not right. what distances are we talking about here?
Sarge Posted Aug 9, 2012, 1:50 pm	Necrotech said: I have visually seen these ranges from 50m to 90m virtually dead on with a nearly 0% miss percentage, in 5 out of 5 cases. looking at ganger handgun skill those ganger had 30 or less skill. *sam* said: *Bastille* said: Quote: ... even at extreme ranges. yeah, thats not right. what distances are we talking about here? I was in a scout today where Tez's ganger *didn't* hit with the shotgun. We were surprised. Tez has shot people at roughly 60-70m with unerring accuracy with the shotgun and either removed a leg or head with most shots.
*Bastille* Posted Aug 10, 2012, 2:00 am	This from other thread, in case anyone has missed it. *sam* said: *Tinker* said: Iron Wraith said: Or scale the blast proportional to range and the damage inversely proportional to range (to simulate the shot spreading out and loosing energy. Otherwise you have made it a Bolta. Dakka dakka, Orky boyz! \ Is this possible too? Yes
Tez Posted Aug 10, 2012, 11:45 am	3 shots fired today from the infamous "shotgun" 2 ripped of legs, 1 merely lacerated organs Shot @ 50m, rookie handgunners, no more that 30 skill, one turn target, then fire.
*sam* Posted Aug 10, 2012, 12:31 pm	Tez said: 3 shots fired today from the infamous "shotgun" 2 ripped of legs, 1 merely lacerated organs Shot @ 50m, rookie handgunners, no more that 30 skill, one turn target, then fire. I have just modified the base accuracy for it.. let me know how you get on.
Necrotech Posted Aug 10, 2012, 2:30 pm	.... In the meanwhile... intoducing these change while in the middle of ped league severely screwed up things while dead booking one of my characters...*sigh* No Tez, not your fault...lol.. it was the shotgun's....
Tez Posted Aug 10, 2012, 8:09 pm	Just tried it now, purple only started to come at around 30m or so, fired 2 rounds, progressing from around 50m. Cost Mr Flynt his life.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 11, 2012, 3:28 am	Accuracy hasnt been much of the issue... What seems off kilter is the damage. Legs blown off and kill shots at 100 to 125m. I dont see a HIT at that range as being unusual. Just the fact that there is no damage degradation from point blank to max effective... from a balistics and energy transfer point of view, even the 7.62mm M14 and the M16, AK-47 and AK-74 all see a 66% energy degradation pretty early in it's flight. I would need to check my data books but I think the general rule was 50% degradation of velocity at 2/3 max effective range, and 66% at max... Max defined as the range at which an average shooter can expect to hit the target 50% of the time. In the case of the M16, about 400m.
*Boonwolf* Posted Aug 11, 2012, 2:01 pm	All this talking about vertual shot guns and damage effects makes me want to load 8 rounds and fire off a few bucks. Maybe score a snack from the trees little bits of fur and skin stuck to the limbs if I were to it's the virtual model. Lol
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 11, 2012, 9:45 pm	Mmm fur.... Lol. Saw 2 coons in the dumpser at a friends apartment the other night. Tried to get a better look and shine light on them from my cell... But one of them didnt like that very much so I had to let them be. Didnt need bit! They dont seem as friendly as possums or armadillos
DieselCougar Posted Aug 11, 2012, 9:52 pm	Coons are pests, shoot them or run them over. They destroy everything.
*Boonwolf* Posted Aug 12, 2012, 1:47 am	Lol down with coons have had them kill 16 chickens in one night and a total of 30 over 1 week. I prefer maley weapons for that up close and personal treatment.
*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Aug 12, 2012, 5:50 am	Melee. And i dont think a 2x4 counts... but idk
Zephyr Posted Oct 9, 2012, 11:21 pm	Nice tweaks, and long in coming. Can't wait to try them out.