First!
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Karz Master Posted Apr 28, 2012, 12:39 pm |
I've been an eager beaver for the last few weeks on KS projects. I've backed fiction projects, games and tabletop games. And in my opinion, based on observing various successful and non-successful KS projects, is that while there are several elements that affect the success of a project, its success does not hinge in a static pattern of these elements. Some successful projects bank on one set of marketing strategies, while others bank on another.
These elements include: Good marketing skills requires good people skills, which can be signaled in a good video and well-designed KS page. The presentation of a video cannot give the impression of a bored person pitching his product. The speaker must be enthusiastic. The Kickstarter page must also give a detailed description of what to expect, and what's been done. Nobody clicks on a KS page and says "I'm going to spend 20 minutes to read this carefully." Usually they either get excited or they don't, based on first impressions. Prototype showcase. In addition to good marketing skills, Kickstarters that gain the most popularity are either spearheaded by popular figures in the industry, or those with prototypes to show. Since Sam's project will likely belong to the latter, it means that there must be a prototype of sorts to show to the public. Darkwind can act as a demonstration, but ultimately it's an analogue, not a representation. The best way to promote the project is to have a prototype. See: Nekro. Word of mouth is probably the most important factor because that's where the money's going to come from, ultimately. I've seen projects fail because of inconsistent spreading of the word. A project can gain overnight popularity when all the right notes are hit *simultaneously*. See: FTL. Regular updates. I've seen projects that have failed to gather excitement, in addition to slow word of mouth, because of irregular updates. Regular updates are needed to keep people excited and something to look forward to. Updating the reward tiers constantly also add value to project, and give people who are on the fence a push. It's a psychological game. See Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective as an example of good potential with awfully slow updates; or Nekro as an example of regular updates leading to its popularity. Reasonable, realistic goals must be set to show the developer has thought this through. People are suffering from KS burnout, after seeing so many crap projects with unrealistic goals. It's too easy to dismiss a project now. Having a realistic goal signals that the developer is (a) not just begging for money and (b) is willing to commit money from his own pocket. Did I miss anything else? Feel free to add on to that list. Let's help make Sam's project a success. It's now or never - either it picks up momentum right from the get-go, or it faces the risk of elimination. Also, first post! |
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*Tinker* Posted Apr 28, 2012, 1:14 pm |
Apparently the company needs to be based in the USA to get on KS | ||||||
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Karz Master Posted Apr 28, 2012, 1:28 pm |
The alternative is to use Indiegogo, which works just as well, even if less popular. | ||||||
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Groove Champion Posted Apr 28, 2012, 4:04 pm |
I'd hate to see Dark Wind fall short of its funding goals if Sam gave Indiegogo/Kickstarter a try: it seems to me like trying to get funded is a one-shot deal. No mistakes can be made! | ||||||
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Apr 28, 2012, 4:35 pm |
Seems to me that the key guy who's not real interested in this kickstarter thing is Sam. Heck, I could be wrong, but I think he's pretty happy with this "little" game as it is. So am I. I'd wager so are quite a few of the other players.
Why the obsession with bigger-faster-more? |
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FireFly Posted Apr 28, 2012, 6:18 pm |
Sam said several time over the last month that he would like to so both a sequel and sp spinoff if he can find time/money 
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Fifth Posted Apr 28, 2012, 6:34 pm |
Per a single-player spinoff - DW:Tactical scenarios could be a good way to beta-test and fine-tune single player scenarios. And I definitely have some ideas for those.
Here's one: A Firetruck, armed to the teeth, facing wave after wave of attacks until it either gets to the safety of town, or dies. |
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FireFly Posted Apr 28, 2012, 7:37 pm |
If he does make a singleplayer one, take the oppertunity to balance out weapons and specs. Just sayin', proper balance never gets right with only a man or two on it. | ||||||
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Karz Master Posted Apr 28, 2012, 8:19 pm |
Believe me, Sam's as excited as a giddy schoolboy experiencing his first crush right now 
The real question - and this entirely hinges on Sam's decision - is what would an SP phase-based car combat wargame entail? I will back whatever Sam comes up with, but if it's going to be Darkwind Tactical without an Internet connection, I doubt others will be all over it. Will it have mod tools? A completable singleplayer campaign? What is the metagame aspect going to be like? |
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*Tinker* Posted Apr 28, 2012, 9:14 pm |
Is a DW2 MMO even a possibility?, if so then a 100% client game would rock, that served on a new game engine 
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Apr 28, 2012, 11:04 pm |
For as much gaming experience as I have... Which is a decent enough amount that most people I know think im an expert (but I know better! lol) I can say ive never heard if KS, indiegogo, of any of the games mentioned in the first post. Other than FTL which I heard from a few sources was a total waste of a game. I never tried it.
What would a kickstarter BE? A funded DW mmo or a single play offline game? I know what makes games addictive to me. Addictive nature of a game fuels continued sales of expansions and sequels most definatly. Sims, Civilization (2 of my all time favorites) all got me to keep buyong even though the latest incarnations of both are pretty lousy in comparison to their predacessors. Will add some musings on what makes a game addictive to me when im not attempting tp do this on my phone.
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FireFly Posted Apr 28, 2012, 11:13 pm |
Smaller gang size by far, take out the time consuming elements like travel times and such... More focus on individual characthers rather than a large gang? |
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*goat starer* Posted Apr 28, 2012, 11:52 pm |
scams scams scams loverrrrrllly SCAMS! | ||||||
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*Bastille* Posted Apr 29, 2012, 12:15 am |
Community supporter! what a load of...
yeah, I think you could be right there. Who was that Tomo Edison bloke? |
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Silvra Posted Apr 29, 2012, 8:45 am |
I'd definitely kick in. Mostly to get a real, actual full game client and take out the browser aspect.
The biggest marketing issue darkwind has, imo, is people don't give it a fair shake before writing it off. I posted about this on a forum I frequent, and most people's reactions were "This looks dumb" due to a combination of the graphics and the browser based stuff. I'm not personally sure how to fix this. It's difficult to convey the tenseness a hairy return has without investing time in the game. My roommate tends to hate "indie" games like minecraft and others, but loves this just because it gives you stuff you can't get anywhere else, namely a fun RPG with real tenseness and a sense of loss. Also shooting a buggy with 6 car cannons and a pair of RLs. Darkwind's injury descriptions, I think, are its hidden gem--who doesn't love running over some ped and seeing "What was once Joel Omalley's head is crushed"? Looking at other games that are as obtuse but became popular, like EVE--a big part of that was the crazy meta mystique that arose with stories like "the big scam". That conveyed the great potential EVE had, and drew more people to the game than any banner ad ever could. Of course, playing the game is more boring than DW ever could be, but it sort of illustrates how you can quickly convey the best parts of a meta game like that. Maybe someone needs to write "The big Return" for DW, heh. The point is, if you're going to do a KS, you have to grab people. Right now, this game doesn't. I really don't want to blame sam or anything, because he's just one guy and is doing the best he can. But little things like the graphics and the browser based nature are what's making people look at the game and turn off to it. If you're planning to do a KS, it might be worth it to spend some time building a tech demo of what it -could- be like, playing down that aspect so people can get to the great meat this game has. Oh, the subscriber thing probably doesn't help. I'd change that for sure. If I hadn't paid for my roommate's first sub, he wouldn't be playing right now. Making the whole SS area f2p would go worlds towards that, and also maybe giving the first spec at 25 so that new players feel a bit more engaged early--right now it can take weeks to get to 50 alone as a new player. Even if it's just the first 5 hires that get a free spec. You'd clearly have to give more people a reason to scout outside SS if you made SS totally F2P, which would probably mean revamping elms so it has more rare chassis more often...but now we're getting into super third rail opinion area. |
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Djihani Posted Apr 29, 2012, 12:17 pm |
That's total bull#### Silvra. I come to this game because of the graphics and the interface. Kids today probably wont, and I'm totally fine with that  There are plenty of games with super graphics that are so complicated there's no chance whatsoever of adding user content and artist salary is so high you get fewer guns/cars/cool stuff depending of how much $$ they have to sink into GFX. (example - fallout 3, had like one assault rifle, one pistol, one or two of everything)
If SS would be free to play there would be almost no reason to sub at all IMHO. In my opinion adding story and the mechanics to convey it would be the best addition in a single player mode. Dunno, more than just generic (do x to y) stuff. Like you start off as one or two characters in trouble of some sort, fight your way out of it and gain cool stuff, skills and members along the way as you save the world/ gain more power and area control/ whatever would be the central red line of the story... |
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*sam* Posted Apr 29, 2012, 6:04 pm |
I'm definitely interested in trying indiegogo to assist the development of a new single player version (using a different game engine). It's unrealistic to try to raise enough $ to cover a new MMO version. I'll post my ideas in here when I have them written down. I'll definitely be looking for feedback/input from you guys, as well as some testimonials to put on the indiegogo page. |
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*Tinker* Posted Apr 29, 2012, 6:58 pm |
I like this idea a lot |
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Karz Master Posted Apr 29, 2012, 7:21 pm |
Don't forget to inform the more professional reviewers that you have contact with, like Bytten. That will really help. |
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*Tinker* Posted Apr 29, 2012, 8:00 pm |
for a single player how about possibility of uploading your gang to the MMO when your done? | ||||||
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Karz Master Posted Apr 29, 2012, 8:28 pm |
Sounds like a neat idea, but how do you prevent hacking/cheating? |
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*Tinker* Posted Apr 29, 2012, 9:00 pm |
I don't know how to stop hacking, maybe with some kind of unique key number system that has too match the stand alone version??
Also limit gang size to something much lower than what we have now? Thinking 8-10, enough to man a FE and a muscle car? With a smaller gang they couldn't just take over SS or something, and it could be a boom for the MMO business. |
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*StCrispin* ce.services.mh@gmail.com Posted Apr 30, 2012, 3:18 am |
Thats a nice hook to get more subs here too. Or in absence of subs, more players anyway... |
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*sam* Posted Apr 30, 2012, 8:51 am |
It shouldn't be too hard, I can encrypt the data so it's verified as coming from the singleplayer game client. |
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Sarge Posted May 1, 2012, 12:38 pm |
Well you could have any size gang in the spin-off game but only allow the best, say 8-10, to be "promoted" to an Evan gang (e.g. the MMO). | ||||||
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*Longo* Posted May 3, 2012, 12:45 am |
I like this idea also.
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Serephe Posted May 3, 2012, 3:37 am |
If you can upload offline gangs online, no matter how hard you try, people WILL hack it. No matter what kind of protections you have in place. You're really better off leaving it alone, or making it online gang -> offline gang only, instead of a two way street. | ||||||
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*Bastille* Posted May 3, 2012, 5:42 am |
yeah, I know of people that hack wow all the time, and that has 100s just working on security | ||||||
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*Tinker* Posted May 3, 2012, 8:22 am |
hence why i proposed a very low gang limit, but yeah this might not be a great idea | ||||||
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Iron Wraith Posted May 10, 2012, 11:38 am |
As I said many times long ago, I'd be happy for the SP version to simply replicate what a subscribed player gets in MMO minus any player interaction.
The appeal of DW is the 3d, turn based, non-fps with upgradeable and repairable cars. I see no reason to remove travels and the bog standard trade missions (they are quite enough fun). I don't see the need forced progression through a campaign, though if that were available fine. I certainly wouldn't like to see any interaction with the MMO other than possibly being able to download my MMO gang, skins and maybe scenarios that other players have built in tactical into the SP version (not going the other way). Basically DW as it stands, running on a stand alone PC, without having to arrange your life around other players. I'd like the ability to save the game at any point (but like the original wasteland when you pick up the game again that's where you are). If it is a wholly SP game with no upward interaction with the MMO it doesn't matter if I "cheat" by saving the game before every nasty encounter and reloading if it goes wrong. Currently we have something like that in a call to Sam if the game rips us off (due to server crash or the like). So basically put the client and the server on my PC, no manuals, no miniatures, no limited edition fiction bound in human skin. Make those available for those that want it if it would work, but don't make everyone who doesn't want it pay for it. And definitely not Steam and no tricky DRM stuff. Nothing irritates me more thn not being able to use something I have paid for because someone elses system isn't working today or isn't compatible with my machine anymore. |
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Ender Card Posted May 10, 2012, 2:55 pm |
Well said!!! I LOVE the idea of a open world like it is where i can just build up my gang and then optionally move the story along if i choose.
I wil say it would be nice to build the single player game with the idea of upgrading it to support multiplayer eventually via a patch. I think updating the new offlien client to support what the website site does would make the game more accessable.
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FireFly Posted May 10, 2012, 3:01 pm |
If you do, make it reasonably moddable so I can try my balance changes to certain specs and handguns... No actually, I'd pay you if you let me play around with the weapon stats some
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JS Posted May 10, 2012, 4:21 pm |
I'll pay to not let FF near the stats! heh... |
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Joel Autobaun Posted May 10, 2012, 4:42 pm |
Surprised to see a lot of support for this idea. No hard feelings but I would put this game away forever, if that was possible. MMO or not MMO there is no in-between for me personally. |
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Karz Master Posted May 10, 2012, 4:46 pm |
Wow long time no see man. You're back just in time for the grand opening of Sam's new game.
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*Tinker* Posted May 10, 2012, 5:05 pm |
No hard feelings, but why would this put this game away forever? talking about the MMO right? |
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Joel Autobaun Posted May 10, 2012, 5:07 pm |
yup. | ||||||
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Juris Posted May 10, 2012, 5:11 pm |
Definitely think single player DW would starve DW MMO. It took 5 years to get Morgan...
Be careful what you wish for |
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*Tinker* Posted May 10, 2012, 10:08 pm |
I din't think about that, or how that could happen being a big fan of group scouting... | ||||||
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Ender Card Posted May 11, 2012, 3:39 am |
I think the reverse would happen. It would increase interest in the MP version of the game, especially if the new client evolved to support all the fuctions that are split between the game client and website. No matter how easy or fun the system is that 2 client interface is going to keep some people distant. Intergrating and getting more visability and creating more buzz is just going to increase population.
Hey maybe a tier would include 1 month free and another teir could include 1 year free for kickstarter! |
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*Tinker* Posted May 11, 2012, 10:20 am |
If the MMO client and the SP could be united, that would sure help i think, good ideas on the free sub tiers 
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Ender Card Posted May 11, 2012, 4:34 pm |
Yes i really like the idea now. Something like
$75 gets you a free 3 month subscription $100 Gets you early access to the beta of the single player game/new client $150 gets you a free 6 month subscription and maybe a novella of the existing short stories to download $200 gets you a free 1 year subscription, 2nd copy of the game I think doing something like xenonauts with their $200 would also be very enticing and get prospective players interested. I also suggested that at $250 tier would include the ability to customize you stats for a limited number of pledgers. Obviously you would have to do it within a range, but allowing a subscriber to generate their own avatar in the game so everyone else can enjoy is really going to tickle a lot of gamers. Add these with a few other incentives and existing subscriber base to use this for their next subscription and to participate in the kickstart. A nice side effect is you would balloon the subscription base for the existing game with a load of new players, and get that much more input for helping to refine the upcoming development. |
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*sam* Posted May 11, 2012, 5:11 pm |
Yeah, I had considered the idea of putting DW subscriptions in as rewards. Possibly a lifetime sub as one of them? I think your suggested prices might be a bit high though. | ||||||
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Ender Card Posted May 11, 2012, 5:27 pm |
I did a rough conversion to US currency assuming you were considering kickstart, but yes i think to get the premium swaag (per se) should be higher than just a normal sub. Afterall, You need the revenue to get you the resources and time to do it right.
I will admit, I maybe went a tad high, the lower you go the more accessable it wil be to a broader base of general fans, but I personally wouldn't blink at all at that proposed pricing.
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Iron Wraith Posted May 11, 2012, 5:38 pm |
Hi all.
I gave up DW for lent. A free 1 month subscription included with the game could be a good hook into the MMO (and allow us ex-subs to export our gangs into the SP game). As Sam points out, since the MMO has a subbscription model anyway, you can't set your "free" benefit from a pledge at more than you would have to pay if you subscribed conventionally. Surely the minimum level of pledge gets you the stand alone game (and this needs to be set at $15-20 for a down-loadable version if Wasteland 2 is anything to go by). If you insist on a physical distribution then your costs are going to escalate to point you may no longer be competitive. I have searched high and low and there isn't anything like DW available currently (or I'd have bought it in a heartbeat) The world is FPS according to the gods of marketing. Once Wasteland 2 hits the bricks the marketeers may have changed their tune and there may be a rush to market. The bottom may also fall out of the crowd-fund craze (someone is bound to rip people off and the whole thing could collapse). My wife is far happier with the idea of SP with a save game than the MMO
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Ender Card Posted May 11, 2012, 7:54 pm |
Ok I see the point intellectually. My personal passion feels it’s perfectly acceptable for this to be on par (if not better) than Wasteland 2. However it is logical to look at this from an indie perspective, which is commonly targeted at the $20 (US centric) range. I will make the point that you are getting the game AND a subscription so they SHOULDN’T be the same price. So with that in mind…
So recalculating from that frame of mind something like: $20 gets you the game, and 1 month trial subscription (great idea btw, Iron Wraith) $30 gets you the game and some basic swag $40 gets you the special edition version of the game, access to beta via steam and free 3 month subscription to Dark Wind Online $60 gets you the special edition version of the game, access to beta via steam and 3 ADDITIONAL month subscription to the Dark Wind Online and an online novella of the game world $80 gets you 2x special edition version of the game, access to beta via steam and 6 ADDITIONAL month subscription (for a total of one year) to the Dark Wind Online. And something like $400 gets you several copies plus lifetime (I know several of the subscribers would probably consider that especially if it included some other interesting perks) |
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Ender Card Posted May 11, 2012, 7:58 pm |
I kniow this is Sam's baby and sure he has his own ideas (and based on the game I'm sure brillant ones) on how to do this, but I love the idea of creating a wiki page and have everyone collobrate on the look and feel of the kickstart. Free up Sam to direct and focus on doing the job of making an awesome game awesome...er! You know what I mean.
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Silvra Posted May 11, 2012, 8:13 pm |
pledge 1000 dollars and get access to the special teleporter slavers use to get your guys to firelight and back.
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*sam* Posted May 13, 2012, 12:21 pm |
Give me a few days.. I'll try to get my ideas put together into a document this week, and we'll take it from there? |
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Ender Card Posted May 13, 2012, 6:43 pm |
Awesome! Getting excited about this becoming more likely a reality! | ||||||
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Karz Master Posted May 13, 2012, 9:52 pm |
I'm heterosexual, but ... |
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*sam* Posted May 14, 2012, 1:20 pm |
Oh I dunno Karz, I always thought that Conan stuff smacked strongly of man-love
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FireFly Posted May 14, 2012, 1:25 pm |
He could always be Bi, keeping the options open
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Iron Wraith Posted May 14, 2012, 9:29 pm |
Doubles your chance of a date on Saturday nights
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Karz Master Posted May 15, 2012, 10:11 am |
Less speculating on one's sexuality and moar wanking to Darkwind 2 pl0x! |