Specialism strategy
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Flopman Posted Dec 9, 2011, 12:09 pm |
Alright, so now my first guys have started to gain specialisms. The first ones were easy, since they were leadership specs, but now one of my heavy gunners have reached 50.
I was originally planning to take machine guns, since that's what my heavy gunners are using at the moment. I was also considering heavy guns, since I have a buzzer i BL with twin mounted CC's. However, I've been advised to take rapid reloader, and now I'm not sure what to do. Any suggestions on which specialisms are better would be welcome. Or maybe someone has some tips on the considerations that go into choosing specs? Thanks |
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FireFly Posted Dec 9, 2011, 12:14 pm |
The best, and clearly overpowered trio of specs to go for is "Sniper, Rapid Reloading and Rapidshot"... Think of it it like the triforce of brokenly overpowered. Boringly so even as nothing else compares.
But yeah, rapid reloading is the way to go, later heavy weapons maybe. (Spec balance is pretty bad) |
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*Tango* Posted Dec 9, 2011, 12:16 pm |
Rapid Reload then Heavy Weapons. I haven't noticed any measureable difference on characters I've given machine gun to. | ||||||||||
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FireFly Posted Dec 9, 2011, 12:23 pm |
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Flopman Posted Dec 9, 2011, 12:28 pm |
Alright, thanks guys. I guess I'll go with rapid reloading, then. Is one level fine, or should I aim to take that again, when she reaches 100? Or go straight for heavy weapons at that point? | ||||||||||
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FireFly Posted Dec 9, 2011, 12:30 pm |
You want at least RR2 for cannons, this gives you an average reload time of 3 turns... any more is overkill 
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*Tango* Posted Dec 9, 2011, 1:16 pm |
True. |
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JS Posted Dec 9, 2011, 2:04 pm |
Do this is you don't want to do it right. Here's how to do it right. Take Heavy weapons. Why? Because you want to get to the CC (and later TG) and be good with it. And while a 100 LG skill guy is good, a 100 LG skill guy with Hvy Weapons 2 is even better. If you think short term, you will regret it later in the game. This is one of the things few have really learned. Find a CGL or a PG, and train that guy to 50 in Ballistics next, THEN take Rapid Reload. It won't take too long. Better yet, find 2 and put two guys in that car. Rapid reload is very important, but it should not be wasted on either Gunnery or LG. You only need RR 1 if he is 50 speed or higher. Once he reaches 100 skill the bonus to reloading will make RR 2 a waste. |
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*Bastille* Posted Dec 9, 2011, 3:08 pm |
agree, RR trained as ballistics works out well. same with rapid shot.
Got a few of those characters trained early I can no longer get heavy weapons for. The Moving targets specs I chose instead sure are handy though. Two similar gunners, similar stats - about 80 dex, and similar specs; one has Heavy weapons and MT 1 , the other MT 2, both sniper 2. one gets slightly better range, the other can hit stuff under that range with greater accuracy. I like MT... at least for tail gunners that shoot on the run. |
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JS Posted Dec 9, 2011, 5:07 pm |
MT is a very underated spec. In addiiton it is a great PvP spec to negate Def driver and high speeds. |
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d0dger Posted Dec 9, 2011, 5:22 pm |
I don't agree at all, and have to agree more with what Tango and Firefly said, and what you said about Moving Targets. I have a guy with sniper 3 and heavy weapons 4 and guys with sniper 4 and no heavy weapons still outshoot them on car cannons and tank guns. Taking rapid reload from large guns lets you take rapidshot from ballistics, and focus entireyl on sniper from gunnery and handguns. This lets you move into Moving Targets that much sooner if your guy caps at 150 or above. Getting that rapidshot in there is going to do more then your heavy weapons spec, and so would moving targets. The only weapon specific specs worth making any priority on are laserfire and flamethrowers, if you're going to dedicate the ganger in question to using those weapons exclusively. As Tango said, adding heavy weapons spec at 150+ large guns after you've taken rapid reload 2 can be useful, but even then you're deciding against Moving Targets or shifting it into other specs in place of more rapidshot. |
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d0dger Posted Dec 9, 2011, 5:31 pm |
Here's a great General Strategy, for the most effective gunners, which as FireFly noted can be so effective as to be boring. Be forewarned.
This assumes specs from 100 skill as many gangers cap over 100 but under 150 skill, limiting them to 8 total weapons specs. gunnery: take sniper twice handguns: take sniper twice large guns: take rapid reload twice ballistics: take rapidfire twice, or rapidfire and moving targets once each. Results: Kick ass gunner that can shoot anything and have good accuracy at 100+ meters the turn after targetting. Sniper 4 Rapid Reload 2 Rapidfire 2 OR Rapidfire 1 and Moving Targets 1 If your guy makes 150 it's easy to take level 2 in both rapidfire and Moving Targets and leaves you two other specs to experiment with. |
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Necrotech Posted Dec 9, 2011, 5:58 pm |
Here's my recipe from ground up on starting gangers.
A- Never accept anybody less than 50 Dex or Spd B- For gunner types - Go with Handguns to start - Never accept less than 22 skill starting (cap reasons) C- Leave training on Handguns, work on Hvy (Hgg's/HMGS) or Guns (GG'MMG) D- Once you hit 50 on either spec Guns.. SNP / HVY .. RR E- Cross train now in either Ballastics for Rapidshot or opposing gun type to get RR or SNP By time you are done with the first 3 "50's" Handguns is now 50 and you will have your SNP2 Wicked nasty and a low level gunner who can hit anything that SS, ELMs, or GW has to offer |
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Juris Posted Dec 9, 2011, 6:08 pm |
Words of wisdom Also agree with both FF and Dodger that this is why the Sniper spec is badly broken - it is way too overpowered. I really resent having to follow this path just to compete. As for Flops original question - first Large gun spec should be RR1 - using CCs without at least RR1 is crazy. |
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JS Posted Dec 9, 2011, 6:50 pm |
Yes, a sniper 4 will certainly out range/shoot a sniper 3 regardless of other specs. I never said that and it's not implied in my planning/system. But given the same sniper level, the guy with Hvy Wpns is better. Concur on the two specialized guys. |
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JS Posted Dec 9, 2011, 7:00 pm |
My training assumptions are planned for a 150+ gunner, I fire most anything lower. That being said, with my system you get the following at 100. Sniper 4 Hvy Wpns 2 RR 1 RS 1 This is a devastating Large Gunner. There is an argument that Dodgers is a better small gunner. I sacrifice some efficiency at the smaller guns for maximization of the big guns. The other advantage is that Dodgers is a slightly better PvP build at 100. At 150 you get this. Sniper 4 Hvy Wpns 3 RR 1 RS 2 MT 2 At 150, RR 1 is enough to have 2 tunr reload time if you have any speed at all. But scrimping a bit earlier, you are not hurt later. You can go to Sniper 5 or 6, I have done so on some characters, it's really to taste at this point. If you dispense with the MT, you can add the sniper specs. |
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JS Posted Dec 9, 2011, 7:01 pm |
Yes, you need RR, but you should get it from Ballistics, and not waste a Hvy Wpns spec on RR. |
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Flopman Posted Dec 9, 2011, 8:30 pm |
Thanks for all the advise, everybody. Plenty of great tips so far, and I'm finding it very helpful.
I ended up going with RR, in case anybody's interested. I've now switched one of HMG's on the vehicle my specced heavy gunner is assigned to, with an MMG, in order to train gunnery. I have a driver who will hit 50 in not so long. Does anyone care to suggest a good spec for that guy? |
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GrowlingBadger Posted Dec 9, 2011, 9:17 pm |
If he's shooting too then Death Racer - reducing penalty to hit for driving, other wise Defensive driver to avoid getting hit as much, unless you are using mines or a dedicated ram car.
GB |
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JS Posted Dec 9, 2011, 9:43 pm |
I'd say it's pretty universally Defensive Driver. Death Racer is nice if he's shooting as noted above. My laser dudes take this at least once. Offensive driver is fun if you want to use Ram cars. Those can be dangerous (to everyone, not just the enemy) but very deadly. The racing specific specs are also useful, for racing. |
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d0dger Posted Dec 9, 2011, 10:17 pm |
Gladly, JS and I totally agree here. Defensive is great for anyone who ever drives anything that's getting shot at. I haven't taken Offensive on anyone but I've seen it make great rams godly. Most of my scouts drive a two seater muscle car and shoot a gun at the same time, deathracer is a must. I haven't taken level 2 with anyone becasue at level 1 they seem to have very nearly as good accuracy as a dedicated gunner. I usually mix in some Defensive driver if they get extra choices. Jumpstart and Slipstream are great for dedicated racer or deathracer. |
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d0dger Posted Dec 9, 2011, 10:25 pm |
These two points, and possibly a slightly lower inclination on my part to roll out mostly/all large guns are probably the keys to the disparity in our viewpoints. I don't scout train my new hires to pre-discover their caps and I don't necessarily fire anyone who caps under 150. I also optimize my choices to be prepared for/competative in PVP. Considering that killing NPCs optimally or slightly less then optimally probably translates into a 5 minute or less difference on how long it takes me to win an event against them as opposed to possibly translating into a difference on me winning or losing the encounter in PVP, I feel that's the right route to take. To Flops: Have fun and use any portion or compiliation of the advice in here and it will get you to the point that you can start debating these finer points right along with us. 
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Flopman Posted Dec 9, 2011, 11:29 pm |
Thanks again everybody, I'll be referring to this thread in the future, when deciding my specs.
This makes me wonder what the idea of scout training is. I've talked to other people here, who always train every new recruit to their max in scouting, but I'm not really sure why. I thought gangers had different caps for different skills, so all you'd be discovering is their cap for scouting, and while having good scouts certainly sounds nice, I don't see why each and every ganger has to be a good scout. Am I just misunderstanding something? Is the cap the same for all skills? |
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JS Posted Dec 9, 2011, 11:49 pm |
Cap is within a couple points for all skills. I laughed at the comment about "pre-discovering", is not discovering the cap in scout the same as finding it elsewhere? What is "pre" about it? the idea that finding the cap in some other sill area is better, or more desireable, or more skillful is bunk. Dodgers point about taking the advice and rolling with your own plan is solid. Despite all of us saying this or that is better, the game is great in that you can take rocketeer and Moving targets and still do great. It has many avenues, and that i swhy the skill system is so good. |
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JS Posted Dec 9, 2011, 11:53 pm |
As to the "Why", for me its because I can afford to based on my play style/time and current gang situation. I have enough good gunners that I can afford to hit the scout skill hard on new guys, and see what shakes out. From there I can decide what I want to do with him. |
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d0dger Posted Dec 10, 2011, 12:48 am |
Well, with some focused effort caps can be discovered by wilderness training scouting far faster than any other way, quickly enough (if you can afford the time investment) to discover it while the ganger is still young enough to plan around it. I enjoy the mystery more myself. But again, there's more then just one precisely correct way to play this game. |
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FireFly Posted Dec 10, 2011, 1:14 am |
Yeah, funny how that works, goes for most leauge battling to, Range > Everything
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JS Posted Dec 10, 2011, 4:52 am |
Oh, odd, because aren't you the same guy who talks about it all being strategy and tactics in PvP? Interesting, so we do need CR for Specs to balance PvP? You can't have it both ways. |
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*Bastille* Posted Dec 10, 2011, 7:29 am |
yeah, PvP requires some thought My cross trained 90 spec guys struggle to shoot at 100M, (Sn1 Rct1 MT1 RS1) I seen others hit at 200m |
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FireFly Posted Dec 10, 2011, 1:05 pm |
I'm the guy who keeps saying that the sniper spec and mortars throw any strategy you might have out the window, unless your strategy is to take a lot of causalties
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*Tango* Posted Dec 10, 2011, 2:11 pm |
range =/= everything in division 1 against Splash last season. | ||||||||||
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JS Posted Dec 10, 2011, 2:31 pm |
Not sure why mortars are included here, that is an entirely different issue from specs. It is highly unlikely that if we nerf sniper (and mortars for what it's worth) that there will be a renaissance of "Strategy". Strategy is what is made of the existing circumstances. Strategy is not enhanced or subtracted from by the mechanics of the tools available to the strategist. That is to say a stretegy is not more valid simply because a partcular strategist deems it so. If a particular strategist doesn't like the strategys which can be used for a particular tool, that is a personal issue and does not effect a strategies validity one ounce. We're talking specs. Specs need CR, then you can weight the various specs according to their strength. That is how game balance is done. If sniper is "overpowered", then it would have a very high CR in relation to other specs. This is called balance. If after the specs have a CR, and sniper is still considered too powerful, there is always the option to change the mechanics of it. HOWEVER, until there is an objective, vice the current subjective, measure then there is virtualy no way to achieve any kind of balance. It becomes a matter of opinion at best. If you change things without a valid measurement, then you will cast about aimlessly trying to force a result. The law of unintended circumstances has a field day. |
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*Tinker* Posted Dec 10, 2011, 6:50 pm |
for crying out loud, sniper needs a huge nerf bat, la lal lalala!
sorry can't sing! 
... I wonder how the game would have been if there was never a sniper skill? |
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GrowlingBadger Posted Dec 10, 2011, 7:08 pm |
I recall it had a bat.
GB |
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betterlucky Posted Dec 10, 2011, 7:16 pm |
So the sniper skill is basically considered essential but last time the nerf bat was wielded, there was a mini-riot. How about just rolling the sniper benefits into the basic skill (so higher skills get better range) and doing a one-off refund of ganger specs that can then be used elsewhere... After all, if everyone is going to choose it, then it kind of ruins the idea of making it optional.
Perhaps even including a redesigned sniper spec that gives an accuracy (not range) bonus but potentially at a cost of one or more turns spent 'aiming'. Depending on balance, you may wellend up losing damage output per turn at lower levels at least, but greatly gaining damage per shot which would interact with the number of reloads you need to carry. Of course, then you're stuck with the next most useful spec being called out... |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Dec 10, 2011, 8:35 pm |
No CR for characters unless CR for total skill as well. You sure are a tricky one JS gotta keep an eye on you at all times. |
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d0dger Posted Dec 10, 2011, 9:13 pm |
it was a poorly formed bat though. |
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Utredd Posted Dec 10, 2011, 11:32 pm |
I finally have started to get a couple of good crews together...
Leave my snipers alone.. |
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Xabbuto sam@psychicsoftware.com Posted Dec 11, 2011, 10:40 am |
BUMP!!! I concur!!! |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Dec 16, 2011, 1:20 am |
Wow. And all this time I've been selecting skills specific to my preferred weapon rather than the obvious "give me super powers" choice, which is Sniper.
I had no idea this was how the skill worked. Increased range (and accuracy?) with ALL weapons? AWESOME! "Lookit meeee, I'm gonna demonstrate my one-shot-one-kill flamethrower technique! In a word, RIDICULOUS. Sniper should be limited to increasing the effective range of rifles. A fully automatic machinegun is NOT a sniper weapon. Neither is a flamethrower or bazooka or mortar or anything else. My vote, as the poor sucker who's just now learning about this amazing skill, is apply it to rifles only or eliminate it entirely and create a "rifles" skill that works in the same manner as every other weapon specialization in the game. For those who have designed their entire army around this absurdly overpowered specialization, I feel for you. I really do. Mebbe Sam can offer your gangers a "re-spec" so you can move away from the sniper skill if you like. But it should be clear to everybody who'll take an honest look that this is WAY out of whack. |
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d0dger Posted Dec 16, 2011, 1:57 am |
technically it doesn't increase range or improve accuracy...
It reduces the accuracy penalties applied for range. So, yeah. Effectively, it increases the range you can accurately shoot. |
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FireFly Posted Dec 16, 2011, 2:27 am |
Becuase 25% less penalty = boost in accuarcy, regardless of range it gives a boost. |
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*Tango* Posted Dec 16, 2011, 2:37 am |
It's the water I've swam in since the day I started 21 months ago. I talked to a lot of people who I saw making long shots in somerset scouts, they told me how it's done. I hate that you struggled doing things the hard way, but it wasn't necessary. This issue was exhaustively debated in the public and RC forums less than 7 months ago, changed were made, they were reverted due to public outcry. It got very ugly. Lots of personal attacks. I'd rather not have the community go through another repeat of that so soon. More Range/Less Penalty=semantics. |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Dec 16, 2011, 3:16 am |
I agree that revisiting "much ugliness, lots of personal attacks" would be a bad thing. Guess I missed it the first time around... was pretty new and not so forum-aware. As for me I think I'll continue with "the hard way." I'm not much for line-fighting and blowing baddies up at range anyway. I find a good dogfight -- win or lose -- to be far more entertaining and in the end I'm here for fun, not to try and rule the wastes. That said, I'll bow out of the sniper discussion. With my play style I've already accepted the fact that my gangers will never survive long enough to be competitive (with or without the sniper skill) with the real pros around here, so I really don't have much at stake. Should the issue ever really be revisited though, I'll stand firmly in the "it really needs a fix" camp. I'll just make sure to hide behind something till the other guys get close.
[[EDIT]] And why are all my posts showing up under my scavenger gangname? I'm pretty sure all my scavs have died from neglect by now.... |
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*Tango* Posted Dec 16, 2011, 3:40 am |
I don't disagree the system is very slanted. It could have been done differently when it was made. Changing it will doubtless be popular with some and unpopular with others. The community isn't close to any consensus of how to change it. Discussions last time broke down to people making personal attacks because they disagreed. Everyone who has been playing a while has a lot vested in the time they put in making their characters do what they can do, it's a bit of a sacred cow.
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Joel Autobaun Posted Dec 16, 2011, 3:43 am |
It doesn't have to be if there is a respec. |
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*Bastille* Posted Dec 16, 2011, 5:08 am |
I did a thunk-kabout specs over the time since the sniper nerf and decided I like how it is.
....  ....
yeah, definitely. Random ganger spec cap |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Dec 16, 2011, 3:02 pm |
OR...
To bring this more in line with reality (and a level playing field) why not keep the spec modifiers as they are, but only when the weapon is fired from a stationary vehicle? (For our purposes "stationary" could be defined as anything under 10mph so you're not ruined by recoil.) This limitation would reflect the fact that a sniper must do many things -- precise aiming, adjusting for increased distance and "bullet drop," etc -- that cannot be done well in a car bouncing over a charred landscape at 70mph. It will also allow the line fighters -- probably the guys most interested in this spec -- to continue more or less as they are. ...So much for leaving it alone! Sorry. haha |
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FireFly Posted Dec 16, 2011, 3:05 pm |
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Joel Autobaun Posted Dec 16, 2011, 3:07 pm |
The problem with sniper discussion is the Good Idea Fairy always makes a fkin appearance.
KISS Keep it simple stupid. |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Dec 16, 2011, 3:15 pm |
Doesn't really encourage it. Just doesn't actively DIScourage it. People are gonna fight the way they're gonna fight. I'm a dogfighter, others prefer a tank column; it is what it is. But if an effective limitation can be found that somehow manages to avoid running a steamroller over half the community's toes, well, mebbe a fix could be agreed upon. This ain't the U.S. Congress, after all. |
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FireFly Posted Dec 16, 2011, 3:28 pm |
Meaning it's more likely people will build gunlines rather than dropping sniper, because people weigh sniper higher than moving in combat already anyway. People who were already trying moving combat might stop doing so, because sniper is more effective. |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Dec 16, 2011, 4:02 pm |
Good point. In that case I'll recast my vote as "sniper is for rifles, allow a re-spec for those who built their lives around this skill." Not that there's any actual discussion and/or votes being cast here.
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*Bastille* Posted Dec 17, 2011, 8:55 am |
stick both those points together, only works on Rifles and when stationary.
I don't know so much it would encourage more and bigger gun lines. It will make for dedicated snipers, and dedicated sniper positions. Definitely the best two ideas I've heard so far to combat the issue. Sniper can only fire every second turn was another that was floating about for a bit. Something to make sniper.... sniper, and not just 1000 x dex bonus. |
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*JeeTeeOh* Posted Dec 17, 2011, 3:01 pm |
This would be my ideal... but I'm trying to avoid the pitchforks and torches so I shied away from it.
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Utredd Posted Dec 17, 2011, 3:57 pm |
Leave my gangers and specs alone pls
Now where the hell did i leave my pitch fork?? |
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d0dger Posted Dec 17, 2011, 4:45 pm |
Would certainly bring the Heavy Car Rifle into a lot more use. |
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Juris Posted Dec 17, 2011, 7:31 pm |
IMO we should not encourage line fighting unless we invent a new weapon - the car musket
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*Bastille* Posted Dec 18, 2011, 11:41 am |
sand worms
As the Bastardly one has pointed out on many occasions, if snp was to be nerfed other specs like rapid shot would need to be too. I stick to my original position, things work and I like hitting stuff at 150m with tank guns.... and I'm not wearing my pitchfork proof pants. |
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Silvra Posted Feb 23, 2012, 12:01 am |
I realize I'm a few months late to the party--but everyone saying sniper is "too powerful" in relation to other specs, but that nerfing it would enrage those who've already taken it...
What about just buffing the other skills? Things like MG and Rocketeer increase accuracy more than they do now, and also increase damage done by weapon types. In the end, snipers will be better jack of all trades, but a cross-trained MGer would be more accurate and do more damage on MGs? I've always found it ridiculous that sniper makes you more accurate with MGs than MG spec does. |