AnalogKid Posted Nov 23, 2011, 9:59 pm	Hi all, simple noob question I haven't seen answered in the FAQs or elsewhere yet. I get that driving skill improves the accuracy of the ghost, but I've taken to mostly ignoring the ghost in simple races and I've started to place relatively well just by keeping track of my car in my own head. My question is: if one ignores ghost accuracy, does driving skill actually help characters drive? Less bumpity bumpity jumping? More traction through turns? Better accel/decel? Anything? All my "good" drivers died in early bumbling, and I've been winning with 0 skill drivers, so I don't know if it's worth paying to recruit another driver now that I've killed off too many this week.
*Tinker* Posted Nov 23, 2011, 10:05 pm	It doesn't seem to do much, but it's so hard to tell in a turned based game. I too would like to know But with terrible cars to control, like the big pickup, i swear it makes a difference, or maybe it's my imagination....
betterlucky Posted Nov 23, 2011, 11:24 pm	I find that when running cross country with pickup or van couriers then a good driver is less likely to roll or flip over, what would essentially be a critical skill check fail if we were using dice. Of course, it could just be wishful thinking
d0dger Posted Nov 24, 2011, 12:51 am	It affects the accuracy of the ghost and has a small affect on acceleration, I know both of those for sure.
*Bastille* Posted Nov 24, 2011, 1:14 am	Yeah agreed there. Seem to get away with a lot more speed in the turns when you get it wrong too. Quote: ...what would essentially be a critical skill check fail if we were using dice.... thats how I've imagined it to be. Seems when racing a failed roll will result in bad ghosts for a bit and some awkward behavior from the car. I see it kinda like HC.
AnalogKid Posted Nov 24, 2011, 1:46 am	OK, thanks guys. Seems like it might be worth looking for an actual driver, instead of just a big guy with lots of courage who can take shrapnel and won't quit!
Marrkos Posted Nov 24, 2011, 1:52 am	AnalogKid said: OK, thanks guys.  Seems like it might be worth looking for an actual driver, instead of just a big guy with lots of courage who can take shrapnel and won't quit! No, take the big guy with lots of courage.  Driving can be trained, but only if they stay conscious and in the event.
*sam* Posted Nov 24, 2011, 12:32 pm	Driving skill slightly improves several of the physics calculations, not just acceleration.. less roll/bump, slightly more grip, etc.
Serephe Posted Nov 24, 2011, 1:13 pm	Driving skill should be more important, imo -- even allowing highly skilled drivers to be competetive in lower classes of vehicles against the higher end stuff. Or just make the faster vehicles a lot easier to lose control of for low skill drivers.
Jeelz Posted Nov 24, 2011, 1:31 pm	I think the effects of driving are well balanced, if somewhat subtle. 0 skill gunnery compared to 100 skill gunnery is quite stark, where the differences between 0 and 100 skill in driving is a lot less decisive. Once you get the hang of driving, NPC's don't present too much of a challenge in races regardless of your ganger's skill. When it comes to racing other players though, a single spec can make a massive difference.
Joel Autobaun Posted Nov 24, 2011, 1:54 pm	*sam* said: Driving skill slightly improves several of the physics calculations, not just acceleration.. less roll/bump, slightly more grip, etc. Knew it.  Ya I let a couple gunners drive a travel once this week...very embarrassing.  Flipped the bullet they were in and /turtled on one of the small bumps near gateway TS.
*Tinker* Posted Nov 24, 2011, 5:32 pm	Serephe said: Driving skill should be more important, imo -- even allowing highly skilled drivers to be competetive in lower classes of vehicles against the higher end stuff. Or just make the faster vehicles a lot easier to lose control of for low skill drivers.  +1 Yeah it doesn't feel like there is much difference, maybe because we don't play in an FPS. Would be cool to make it more noticeable. *Sam* said: Driving skill slightly improves several of the physics calculations, not just acceleration.. less roll/bump, slightly more grip, etc. You said in another post recently that the ghost doesn't reflect friction, so i'm confused with better driving skill you get a better ghost accuracy still? Asking because it's hard to see the difference driving a roadrunner with a 0 driver or a 150
Juris Posted Nov 24, 2011, 5:51 pm	*sam* said: Driving skill slightly improves several of the physics calculations, not just acceleration.. less roll/bump, slightly more grip, etc. Noticed this on high-speed unarmed mission runner travels - under 50 drivers tend to spin out much more.  It doesn't seem to effect tyre damage though, maybe it should if we're thinking about making driver skill better But first make first aid better
betterlucky Posted Nov 24, 2011, 6:12 pm	First aid seems fine once you have that first spec, getting there seems the hard part... esp. as training it seems to paint a big target on the guy, I swear 75% of my casualties are first aiders.
*sam* Posted Nov 24, 2011, 8:57 pm	*Tinker* said: *Sam* said: Driving skill slightly improves several of the physics calculations, not just acceleration.. less roll/bump, slightly more grip, etc. You said in another post recently that the ghost doesn't reflect friction, so i'm confused with better driving skill you get a better ghost accuracy still? Asking because it's hard to see the difference driving a roadrunner with a 0 driver or a 150 Friction? The ghost inaccuracy is actually done by making a random roll every turn, and using it to modify the physics variables for the ghost for that turn, by a little bit. So if you push close to the limit, a weaker driver is more likely to screw up.
*Bastille* Posted Nov 24, 2011, 11:32 pm	and spin his flash into a concrete pillar, or building, or off a cliff or over a ..... Uhg, flashes, don't know why I bother steering them at all... besides that they are cheap and damn fast.
FireFly Posted Nov 25, 2011, 12:08 am	*sam* said: *Tinker* said: *Sam* said: Driving skill slightly improves several of the physics calculations, not just acceleration.. less roll/bump, slightly more grip, etc. You said in another post recently that the ghost doesn't reflect friction, so i'm confused with better driving skill you get a better ghost accuracy still? Asking because it's hard to see the difference driving a roadrunner with a 0 driver or a 150 Friction? The ghost inaccuracy is actually done by making a random roll every turn, and using it to modify the physics variables for the ghost for that turn, by a little bit. So if you push close to the limit, a weaker driver is more likely to screw up. I wonder if he is referring to the fact that the ghost for the roadrunner is never right in tighter turns, and can never accuratly predict how much it will acually turn at speed... Driver skill be damned. Actaully, the only way to learn to drive one of those proper is to compensate for how much the ghost is off, as it is off by the same ammount all the time, it either shows to little or to much and is never were it should  Personally I wish that cars spun out more often... or rather... Raise the center of gravity on a bunch of the bigger vehicles, specifically SUV's and maybe pickups... They stick to the ground to much... I mean, racers I can buy but a landy doing a hairpin at 100mph? Fat chance  I swear I'm not just saying this cause I love watching vehicles roll...
Serephe Posted Nov 25, 2011, 1:07 am	That seems to be easily fixed in the suspension setups of cars, too. With minor tweaking, I had the SUV's turtling at sharp sudden turns above certain speeds, and even some sedans and muscle doing the same. Work out good setups, and get them made into the main setup for the car.
*sam* Posted Nov 25, 2011, 9:58 am	Yeah, I'd happily modify the centres of gravity etc. to make big vehicles roll more easily.. however, I think it would cause a lot of complaints from some of the players.
FireFly Posted Nov 25, 2011, 11:22 am	Oh heavens forbid players actually having to break before taking a tight corner...
d0dger Posted Nov 25, 2011, 4:19 pm	FireFly said: *sam* said: *Tinker* said: *Sam* said: Driving skill slightly improves several of the physics calculations, not just acceleration.. less roll/bump, slightly more grip, etc. You said in another post recently that the ghost doesn't reflect friction, so i'm confused with better driving skill you get a better ghost accuracy still? Asking because it's hard to see the difference driving a roadrunner with a 0 driver or a 150 The ghost inaccuracy is actually done by making a random roll every turn, and using it to modify the physics variables for the ghost for that turn, by a little bit. So if you push close to the limit, a weaker driver is more likely to screw up. I wonder if he is referring to the fact that the ghost for the roadrunner is never right in tighter turns, and can never accuratly predict how much it will acually turn at speed... Driver skill be damned. Actaully, the only way to learn to drive one of those proper is to compensate for how much the ghost is off, as it is off by the same ammount all the time, it either shows to little or to much and is never were it should  Personally I wish that cars spun out more often... or rather... Raise the center of gravity on a bunch of the bigger vehicles, specifically SUV's and maybe pickups... They stick to the ground to much... I mean, racers I can buy but a landy doing a hairpin at 100mph? Fat chance  I swear I'm not just saying this cause I love watching vehicles roll... problem with the roadrunner is that that model basically bottoms out even on completely flat terrain. It's got something wrong with it that has basically zero or maybe even negative ground clearance. Friction?
Ragnak Posted Nov 26, 2011, 2:25 pm	*sam* said: Yeah, I'd happily modify the centres of gravity etc. to make big vehicles roll more easily.. however, I think it would cause a lot of complaints from some of the players. I wouldn't have an issue with it as long as a player could manipulate the vehicles center of gravity just as they do with tire pressure and suspension length and stiffness.
Serephe Posted Nov 26, 2011, 11:04 pm	I'd love to see the COG changed, but you might want to dial back impact recoil on weapons where its a bit over the top too -- namely, the MG/GG line. Always thought it was a bit silly that I could toss 5500lb sedans through the air with them. And COG changes would make it easier to start that, since they'd roll easier when shot.
JS Posted Nov 27, 2011, 12:00 am	Remember this is not a "simulator", a little cartoon is very good for the fun factor. It's great that lorrys can drift and not tip over. Edit - The Motor Home has a high COG, and it is a bear to keep on its feet. One consequence of that is no one plays it much at all (Turtling is not it's only negative, but it is high on the list of reasons why people avoid it).
*Bastille* Posted Nov 27, 2011, 2:23 am	Maybe the Motorhome would work better on the racing wheels? Less ground clearance, but man it looks cool....I replaced the Hearse with the MH model way back when to test the skin. I got a pic here somewhere *bang thump toss crunch* ahh... here we go. Theres nothing wrong with COG, they're wicked as is
Serephe Posted Nov 27, 2011, 3:22 am	The reason noone uses a motorhome is not the fact that it turtles. The boxvan turtles just as much, but is used more often. The problem with the motorhome is that it is SLOW as heck, and easy to hit as a lorry, with even less armor.
*Bastille* Posted Nov 27, 2011, 5:28 am	They are a little faster since the 5L upgrade. Be nice to see the MH as a possible solo town to town traveler.
JS Posted Nov 27, 2011, 11:15 am	Serephe said: The reason noone uses a motorhome is not the fact that it turtles. The boxvan turtles just as much, but is used more often. The problem with the motorhome is that it is SLOW as heck, and easy to hit as a lorry, with even less armor. Disagree, the Motorhome turtles and stays that way.  The Box Van tends to get back on its feet.  So while they both have a high COG, something else in the physics engine is in play. I also mentioned that the COG is just one factor, but IMO it is the biggest one. In any event changing the COG on large vehicles to make them more tricky to drive, like the Motorhome, is simply a bad idea.
Joel Autobaun Posted Nov 27, 2011, 7:36 pm	the MH has a lot of problems. It's just best taken out of the game.