FireFly Posted Jul 28, 2011, 4:01 am	Something I posted half a year ago or something along those lines I suppose, but here we go again, might have better luck this time around... Simply put, handgun balance is out of wack, half of them are useless and the rest do not work they way they are supposed to so my suggestion for rebalancing them is pretty simple, here we go. Rifle - Also known as the handweapon Ammo: 20 > 5-7 Otherwise, it could remain pretty much the same stat wise, the only problem with this weapon is that it does everything well, decent damage and range. Lowering the ammo count would mean that it would still do the job of a rifle, mid-long range fighting, but it would not be suitable as a primary jack of all trades, and certainly not the weapon of choice for fighting beasts at close range. Sub-Machinegun - the only weapon that is ever used as a backup! There might be more than one problem with this weapon, but the worst by far the damage is does, put simply... The smg should have... - A high rate of fire - Low damage but with the chance of multiple hits - High Ammo capacity Now one might say that it's imagined that it fires several shots but there really is no reason that it cant fire 2 or 3 shots GG style. Anyway, here's what I think it should look like... Ammo: 30 Rate of Fire: 3 Damage: Pistol Class (SGM's mainly use pistol calibers) The range can probably be left the same, for as long as the rifle beats it in range it works. Now for the useless weapon, the Shotgun... It really is hard to get more useless than what this "boomstick" currently is, pisspoor damage, low ammo count and downright laughable range. The shotgun is by far the weapon that needs this revamp the most, so here is my suggestion, Short range-Quick kill weapon, you know, like a shotgun? Clip: 2 (I'd imagine a double barrel is the easiest to find in the post apoc) Damage: Extremely high (Like what the SMG currently does but x1.3, basically, get hit and you're out... Like what a shotgun SHOULD do!) Accuracy: Extremely high at short range, incredibly high drop rate. Alternatively you might want to drop damage over range to. The handgun... Is the only weapon that is well represented I think. Handguns are secondary arms and aren't terribly accurate in the first place and their bullets can be stopped by body armor. Given the toughness of peds in this game they clearly are wearing body armor, explaining it's rather poor damage. Hell sam, I think you mentioned once it was assumed they were wearing some sort of armor, I always did anyway. Heh, With limited experience It's actually easier to hit things with shotguns rather than handguns, either that or my uncle owns one crappy pair of handguns, or rather, personally I can hit a clay flying trough the air with the first, but barely hit a stationary target with the second  As for the crossbow, look, it's a crossbow and there is now way it can compare to modern weaponry, even if they are just for hunting, even with the love for medieval weapons some have around here  Lastly, Melee weapons... Sure, they will never be primary weapons or even secondary, they are simply not worth the bulk and are of limited use, mostly for fun, so I think this is a good idea and I'm not the only one... Make swords 0 bulk, hammers and chainsaws 1. Because they are simply not wroth more bulk, but it would be fun if people would carry them as a last ditch defense if they were given the ability to. And now for the dream zone... Rocket Propelled Grenade Launcher (RPG) Damage: Medium Rocket Bulk: 4 Clip: 1 Short Accuarcy: High Long Accuarcy: Medium-High (Stationary Target) Moving Target Penalty: High Did I miss anything... oh yeah, here are a few options and you'd better not make me sing... believe me, you dont want me to... you don't  http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3ds-max-rpg-anti-tank-grenade-launcher/442599 http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm?id=288672 http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3dsmax-rpg-7-arab-rebel/377595 So yeah, I dont think I have anything left to say, just do the world a favor and do not make me sing for it  Edit... Bleh, so much for saying I wouldnt try to get stuff balanced out anymore... oh well
*Bastille* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 7:40 am	I think this suggestion has merit. shotguns have lower chance of critical? More damage but less criticals might balance out well? Thats if that is possible. swords be 1 bulk, chainsaw still lots. Chainsaw cuts prone cars.
GrowlingBadger Posted Jul 28, 2011, 8:46 am	Good in the context of hard mode me thinks, especially giving peds a 1 shot rocket as we aint gonna have much in the way of a car, at least to start - we could go heavier on the hand guns instead, maybe even no car but several RPG's GB
*Tango* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 9:58 am	the problem with messing with the rifle and making generalities about it is we have no data on it. Is it a bolt action? of so there are some high powered rifles with smaller clips. Or is it more like an M-16, an assault rifle? Your assumptions about it make zero sense if it's an M-16, a weapon I carried like I was married to it and fired for six years of my life. If anything it's much more dangerous at closer ranges because the chance of missing goes way down. A long-gun is unwieldy at melee range, but when the target is as big as the mutant bugs we fight it wouldn't matter. Nothing as big as a sword should be zero bulk. your logic is false, if you're going to make a choice about what to carry you need to weigh your options based on a trade-off between size and efficacy. It opens a loophole for cheating, just load 1000 swords onto a ped to move them to another down so you don't have to deal with their bulk. Crossbows can do something no bullet can: go through a sandbag. They have their pro's and cons, but it's a good primitive weapon for the genre and is a fit as the ammo is something you can make easily. your suggestion on smg is fine, more of a look/feel than anything shotguns should do more damage at melee range, but again shotguns are very unwieldy at melee range unless you have a folding stock. another consideration for range is load, but we don't have multiple ammo types in game yet so it's a moot point.
FireFly Posted Jul 28, 2011, 12:23 pm	Tango, my reasing for assuming a bolt action is out of a balance perspective, because look, I can try to twist reality all I want but assault rifles are the primary weapon of armies for a reason. If you've got the option of assault rifle, it makes most other options unnecessary outside of a rare few moments, pretty much of it is in real life no? And I ignore the gun models by the way, after all, you dont really think people carry around MP40's in darkwind do you? Not really aiming for total realism by the way, think of it more like realism adapted to as a frame for the balancing. As for swords and handweapons, this is one of those acceptable breaks from reality. I currently believe that nobody will ever carry these in favor of ammo or a secondary ranged weapon and hence their bulk has to reflect their usefulness, that's part of balancing to. Edit, and as for cheating by loading 10000 swords... I'm no expert on DW code but I'm fairly sure you could restrict a pedestrian to 3 weapons. That, and if it has to be justified I could easily see a man carry a sword by his leg and a rifle on his back without to much issue, more sensible than being able to carry 4 shotguns to be honest
*Bastille* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 1:13 pm	its for balance I think this would be good, in mind of ped scouts. rocket launchers would be very rare.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 2:56 pm	Bastille said: rocket launchers would be very rare. really? there have been over 9 million RPG7s made.... seems to be more weaponised lasers capable of being mounted on a car and of damaging a car (total currently existing ZERO) than hand held rocket launchers (total currently existing MILLIONS). shotgun should be very powerful at short range and useless at long. SMG similar (but both of these should have a very high chance of scoring a hit). rifle not much use at very close range (ie hand to hand) high chance of a miss. pistol just not very powerful.
FireFly Posted Jul 28, 2011, 3:04 pm	goat starer said: Bastille said: rocket launchers would be very rare. really? there have been over 9 million RPG7s made.... shotgun should be very powerful at short range and useless at long. SMG similar (but both of these should have a very high chance of scoring a hit). rifle not much use at very close range (ie hand to hand) high chance of a miss. pistol just not very powerful. For the last friggin time goat... we are NOT supposed to agree on stuff, it worries people  But yeah, given their ease of manufacture among other things, trying to make handweapons "rare" would be silly, rather get them balanced out. Strictly speaking, with an RPG under what I imagine it would be is a 4/5 point damage weapon with a clip count of 1, fairly heavy and less accurate than a rifle, and a dreadful penalty versus pedestrians. It falls neatly in line with the rebalanced proposal above, compared to the current rifle however it would be pointless due to the sheer ammo capacity of the rifle.
*Bastille* Posted Jul 29, 2011, 12:36 am	goat said: Bastille said: rocket launchers would be very rare. really? there have been over 9 million RPG7s made.... Well lets just give everyone an RPG then  lets call it dark wind.
Lord Foul Posted Jul 29, 2011, 1:01 am	This has been discussed/debated quite a bit in the past in the RC and suggestions have been made to Sam for possible adjustments to ped weapons. I believe it’s now a matter of if Sam wants to or has the time to make any of the suggested changes. Sometimes even stuff that is discussed/debated and approved on can take a while to get added/changed as Sam is always busier than a one armed paper hanger. He’s probably still trying to catch up from all the stuff that accumulated over his recent vacation. He’s got a backlog of stuff so long he could probably work on that for the next few years.lol
*Bastille* Posted Jul 29, 2011, 1:15 am	Quote: He’s probably still trying to catch up from all the stuff that accumulated over his recent vacation. He’s got a backlog of stuff so long he could probably work on that for the next few years.lol takes me ages to through my adult mail catalogues too
Jeelz Posted Jul 29, 2011, 3:21 am	Lord Foul said: This has been discussed/debated quite a bit in the past in the RC and suggestions have been made to Sam for possible adjustments to ped weapons. I believe it’s now a matter of if Sam wants to or has the time to make any of the suggested changes. Sometimes even stuff that is discussed/debated and approved on can take a while to get added/changed as Sam is always busier than a one armed paper hanger. He’s probably still trying to catch up from all the stuff that accumulated over his recent vacation. He’s got a backlog of stuff so long he could probably work on that for the next few years.lol +1 It's great to get the ideas out there, kudos to FF for all the  thought and consideration he's put into the post. Personally, I'd trade the implementation of all of these suggestions for one new vehicle weapon. That's what I'm here for: cars with guns. **Should this thread be under suggestions, perhaps?
*Tinker* Posted Jul 29, 2011, 1:01 pm	moved to sugestions btw am i the only thinking high accuracy RPG-7s is so wrong?
FireFly Posted Jul 29, 2011, 2:03 pm	*Tinker* said: moved to sugestions btw am i the only thinking high accuracy RPG-7s is so wrong? I think I mentioned a high accuarcy but high moving targets penalty? Given the travel time a rocket/grenade has compared to a bullet...
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 29, 2011, 2:26 pm	Just make it the same as MML. 1 shot like you said.
FireFly Posted Jul 29, 2011, 2:37 pm	Joel Autobaun said: Just make it the same as MML.  1 shot like you said. I said MR, not MML 2 damage for a single shot rocket would not work when rifles do 1 per hit...
Groove Champion Posted Jul 29, 2011, 7:59 pm	Regardless of whether FF's suggestions are implemented or not, ped weapons really are in dire need of some kind of revamp.
Juris Posted Jul 29, 2011, 8:26 pm	Groove Champion said: Regardless of whether FF's suggestions are implemented or not, ped weapons really are in dire need of some kind of revamp. +1000 Ped equipment needs a serious overhaul (as in there isn't any except weapons).
*Tango* Posted Jul 29, 2011, 10:13 pm	High long and short accuracy for a RPG 7?  I've used unguided shoulder fired rockets before (LAW and ATG4) and they are NOT highly accurate.  At short ranges, against slow moving or stationary vehicle sized targets they are effective.  They are unguided and SLOW making them worthless against moving targets at any kind of range.  Yes you can lead the target but only if that target continues in a straight line. Were this a wire guided TOW missle, I'd say sure, highly accurate.  With regards to accuracy guided shoulder fire weapons are little more than BIG fireworks. I think damage on these should not be too high.  MML equivalent is fine.  If it's going to be anything above CGL splash you'd need a direct hit, because a RPG is just a Rocket Propelled Grenade. FireFly said: Joel Autobaun said: Just make it the same as MML.  1 shot like you said. I said MR, not MML 2 damage for a single shot rocket would not work when rifles do 1 per hit... Don't forget the multiplicative effect of numbers.  I get my 4 peds out and now I'm doing 16 damage a round with ped weapons....is that what you're aiming for?
FireFly Posted Jul 29, 2011, 10:37 pm	Tango said: I think damage on these should not be too high.  MML equivalent is fine.  If it's going to be anything above CGL splash you'd need a direct hit, because a RPG is just a Rocket Propelled Grenade. And you know what else, from what I know this "Grenade" is a shaped charge explosive designed to (And very much capable of) penetrate modern tank armor. When I said like a medium rocked, I did not mean splash per se, but it should be in that damage range. Tango said: FireFly said: Joel Autobaun said: Just make it the same as MML.  1 shot like you said. I said MR, not MML 2 damage for a single shot rocket would not work when rifles do 1 per hit... Don't forget the multiplicative effect of numbers.  I get my 4 peds out and now I'm doing 16 damage a round with ped weapons....is that what you're aiming for? For starters, those peds are now out in the open and can be out-ranged by vehicle weapons and as long a the vehicle keeps moving it should be hard to hit. Add to this the bulk of the RPG should be 3 giving the user a max of 4 shots', on top of this he wont be able to carry a secondary arm, if he does that's just 2 RPG shots without having reloads for the secondary weapon. Lastly, yes, if a player is good enough to get into a position to hit with 4 separate pedestrians using RPG's, then give that man the damage he deserves, it's still way less than someone camping on a hill with CC's.
*Bastille* Posted Jul 30, 2011, 5:45 am	with one shot then reload, you're not doing that much damage anyway. 4 well placed rifles can do some pretty cool damage per turn. Reducing clips of rilfes to 5 shots will make shooting up cars a lot harder. Need to have a second guy running with the RPG guy too, to cary his ammo, dice, assortment of RPG reference screens, pencil and eraser.
*Tinker* Posted Jul 30, 2011, 10:17 am	A rifle with 7 shots x 4 reloads = 35 pts of damage, better not miss.. currently we got this: rifle = 100 pts a crossbow, is 5 shots x4 reloads = 25-50 pts pf damage a smg, is 10 shots x4 reloads = 50-100 pts of damage (is it depending on range? pistol, no idea shotgun, no idea (close to 0-50) now RPG-7 and for a 3-4 bulk weapon, it better be able to do more the 2 pts lol, let it be a medium rocket, stop thinking about all the exploits before they even happen but how much damage does a rpg do anyways?, considering a reload would be 2 bulk? so max 2 shots
*Tango* Posted Jul 30, 2011, 11:28 am	At 4 points a shot I see bpu squads dropping off a 4th passenger every time they get deployed in pvp to add more firepower without adding any CR. Balance it for PVP as well as PVE please. Start off small, if no one uses them you can easily adjust up in damage dealt. Another issue is backblast, if you have a ped standing behind one of these when it fires that ped dies.  One of the things we were drilled highly on with weapons like this was to check our backblast area.  You can't propel something forward at high velocity without some super hot exhaust gasses.  Why doesn't it fry the end user?  All these systems used an initial charge to get the weapon airborne, clear of the tube and away from the user then the main propellant charge fires and drives the rocket to it's target. Keep the effective range short or name it something else.  RPG's are affected by wind and are not accurate at range against fast moving targets for previously stated reasons. What you propose is a TOW missile, not a RPG7.  The difference is RPG's are unguided shoulder fired man portable weapons and TOW's(that aren't mounted on a vehicle) are tripod mounted wire guided missiles. I have no problem with a TOW missile hitting moving targets at 3500 meters, it's what they're designed to do. RPG 7's are better against slow moving or stationary targets because they aren't guided. You can call your missile Firefly's Airborne Rocket, Super Explosive, just don't call it an RPG7 because they cannot do what you want this to do.
FireFly Posted Jul 30, 2011, 9:01 pm	Tango, I hope you arent telling that to me, because I never suggested that it should be accurate against moving targets, and I've clearly said it should not be more accurate than the rifle. As for the dropping of a 4th pedestrian, sure, I see that happening to and in fact people used to do that with paint rifles way back when and everyone can do it to. And you'll be risking a fairly good ganger if you plan to hit, and if it's not a good ganger everyone could use a rookie, it's really that simple since hand weapons are common as dirt and easier to manufacture than MG's. Why are you talking about TOW's anyway... I haven't seen anyone here mention guided rockets and backblast, really... such small details are not really that important I think, hence why I think nobody has mentioned it.