*sam* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 12:13 pm	I have had a couple of worried PMs about the "Darkwind: Scavenger" changes that have been discussed (this is a bunch of changes related to making the game more challenging). So, I just wanted to clarify: these changes will be entirely optional. No-one will be affected who doesn't want to be. You will opt into DW: Scavenger if and when you wish to. The main reason I want to run with this idea is that it will provide a way of having a 'hard mode' into which I can try new things without annoying the 'newer' players. Stuff like significantly accelerated permanent damage - which I think would improve the game but which I am incapable of testing because of the complaints it would cause. So in a way it will be like a 'test server', except it will be running in the same game world.
Karz Master Posted Jul 14, 2011, 12:38 pm	Beautiful
*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Jul 14, 2011, 12:42 pm	Looks like it might be time to re-sub
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 14, 2011, 12:50 pm	There goes the neighborhood
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 1:02 pm	Sam, will it be possible to pay an extra fee to be able to run gangs in both modes? Because that option would make a lot of folks who are on the fence about it, try it out without risking their established gang. I'm pretty sure the extra income wouldn't make you cry either.
*sam* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 1:07 pm	Rev, I need to consider how best to handle this. I'm not sure taking extra fees is very fair: perhaps you will be allowed to have two gangs, one of which is in Scavenger mode and one of which isn't. You would only play one of them at a time, with a 2-week delay in switching. Just one possible solution..
FireFly Posted Jul 14, 2011, 1:08 pm	Just asking here, but if the two different modes have little to no interaction with each other, is a two week cool down really needed? Because if they ain't, that would solve the league issue at the same time
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 1:25 pm	"I'm not sure taking extra fees is very fair" I will disagree, if someone wants to be running 2 gangs at once it's perfectly fair to charge a little more. Maybe not full sub price for the second gang, but something. And I'll second the "no cool down time" FF mentioned.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 14, 2011, 1:56 pm	charge a fee and hardly anybody but the diehards will take it up Rev people are funny when it comes to subs, a lot think they already should not have to pay for the extra content they receive here and stay unsubbed till boredom gets em. being able to run in both worlds would be a big advantage, i havnt finished ( so to speak ) my original gangs intentions, i still have a lot i want to do, but also am gagging to try the scavenger, i want my cake and be able to eat it also. so anyway of allowing a system to retain original gang and keeping in the leagues etc but have a go at scavenger should imo be a must
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 1:59 pm	"people are funny when it comes to subs, a lot think they already should not have to pay for the extra content they receive here and stay unsubbed till boredom gets em. " When I consider how little it costs to play DW, I can only say one thing to that- Get a second paper route.
Serephe Posted Jul 14, 2011, 2:04 pm	Strongly disapprove of being able to run 2 gangs at the same time in any way or form, fees or no.
*Tinker* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 2:28 pm	Sweet sam, love the idea of a "testing server" yeha! about the gang issue running in or out of the scavenger mode, i don't get it, why would you need two? just have the option "preferences" to opt in or out on a whim, what's wrong with that? why must it be a complicated decision? or maybe i'm missing out on some big idea?
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 2:44 pm	Tinker, personally, if I went that route, I'd have to go all the way. You'd lose a lot of the "danger" if you could opt out at any time. I'd like to run a gang, from the start, in scavenger mode and really get the full experience of this. I also don't want to give up everything my present gang has worked for. I'm no where NEAR "end game" with my present gang, and I want to keep going with them. Also, switching over and starting up in scavenger mode with a bunch of gangers that already have specs and such kind of defeats the purpose, at least in my opinion.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 14, 2011, 3:23 pm	what rev said, why do you not think members should be allowed to keep two gangs running serephe, you will lose a hell of a lot of ' scavengers' if you lose your original gang or can never play them again..what about the SCL CAMPS ETC, WHY RUNNING TWO WOULD CREATE A PROBLEM.
Joel Autobaun Posted Jul 14, 2011, 3:29 pm	Is this two servers? Scavengers can play with regulars? Where? Town events?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 14, 2011, 3:32 pm	it will be completely separate as far as i have seen
Serephe Posted Jul 14, 2011, 3:32 pm	*Grograt* said: what rev said, why do you not think members should be allowed to keep two gangs running serephe, you will lose a hell of a lot of ' scavengers' if you lose your original gang or can never play them again..what about the SCL CAMPS ETC, WHY RUNNING TWO WOULD CREATE A PROBLEM. Because doubling the amount of gang manpower you have access to trivializes the game even more so than it has been.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 14, 2011, 3:33 pm	how ? it is completely separate in every way.
Serephe Posted Jul 14, 2011, 3:51 pm	Quote: So in a way it will be like a 'test server', except it will be running in the same game world. Doesn't seem that way to me.
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 3:57 pm	I dunno Sere...going by what Goat has been posting about his experiences doing this, getting a stable of gangers up to what I currently have now would be rather hard in the HC mode....so I can't see your "doubling" comment being very valid.
*sam* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 5:02 pm	Scavenger gangs will be running in the same game world, and able to do town events and scouts alongside 'non scavenger' gangs. However, they will not have access to the marketplace or to money. They will be able to perform barter-style trades but only with other Scavenger gangs. It needs some working out, but that's the core mechanism as I currently see it.
FireFly Posted Jul 14, 2011, 5:10 pm	But doesn't running scouts alongside regular players mean it would be impossible to test stuff like weapon nerfs and alike? And here I was hoping you'd try to reintroduce the radiation stuff that people yelled out before I got here, or random weapon jamming... Oh well
*viKKing* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 5:27 pm	FireFly said: And here I was hoping you'd try to reintroduce the radiation stuff that people yelled out before I got here, or random weapon jamming... Strongly seconded and happy someone else but me mentionned it. Fog of War, Fog of War, Fog of War, Fog of War (subliminal message to Sam)
Juris Posted Jul 14, 2011, 5:37 pm	Yeay, Sam is back - hope you had a good vac DW Scav - Sounds like a good experiment to me, especially if it brings people back. As for increased perma - if we're going to do this I say it should also apply to NPCs - I've always thought it was strange that raiders would have brand-new gear. There should be random perma on NPC vehicles too
*sam* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 5:48 pm	FireFly said: But doesn't running scouts alongside regular players mean it would be impossible to test stuff like weapon nerfs and alike? And here I was hoping you'd try to reintroduce the radiation stuff that people yelled out before I got here, or random weapon jamming... Oh well  would be possible to identify a scout that *only* had scavengers in, and apply these sorts of tests only in those cases
Serephe Posted Jul 14, 2011, 5:52 pm	*sam* said: Scavenger gangs will be running in the same game world, and able to do town events and scouts alongside 'non scavenger' gangs. However, they will not have access to the marketplace or to money. They will be able to perform barter-style trades but only with other Scavenger gangs. It needs some working out, but that's the core mechanism as I currently see it. I don't think scav should be able to scout with non scav,or against non scav, since you can "trade" using the loot windows or simply "surrendering"cars to them in either situation. Other than that, yay I guess.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 14, 2011, 5:54 pm	I really really really hope, scavenger mode will not have any LASERS,RGMS ALL THE STUPID APOCALYPSE GAME BREAKING TOYS here's hoping. I stand corrected sere' i didnt realize Sams intention was for this to run in line with DWlite.
Serephe Posted Jul 14, 2011, 6:09 pm	All good Gro. And Sam, I understand you're only one guy, can only do so much, yada yada, so I hope you know I appreciate what you do do. I'm just rather jaded these days.
*Chase Bansi* JohnBMan033@aol.com Posted Jul 14, 2011, 6:12 pm	Serephe said: I don't think scav should be able to scout with non scav,or against non scav, since you can "trade" using the loot windows or simply "surrendering"cars to them in either situation. I would seriously hope that anyone playing a "hardcore" version would NOT exploit anything like that, as it would defeat the purpose of playing hardcore in the first place.
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 6:32 pm	Not me Chase, I'm gonna farm laser ammo like there's no tomorrow.....
Diezel Posted Jul 14, 2011, 7:43 pm	Greetings, What about making existing or new zone/towns south-east or nearby the aurora (for background purpose) with this "hardcore" mode. Reason would be to keep the game as it is for the "starter" zones, not impacting newcomers (sub or un-sub), with same "low level" loot, and give the opportunity for the wealthier and old time players to have more challenge, since in my opinion those are the one who will risk their gang. This could also come with new chassis, ganger, creatures and whatnot. Regards, Diezel.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 14, 2011, 7:56 pm	this will have to be a ' choice ' for the membership. those not wanting to partake will and should still have DW as it is now, so changing southern towns etc will be a no go. this will be a hard project for Sam.
*Tinker* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 8:40 pm	*sam* said: FireFly said: But doesn't running scouts alongside regular players mean it would be impossible to test stuff like weapon nerfs and alike? And here I was hoping you'd try to reintroduce the radiation stuff that people yelled out before I got here, or random weapon jamming... Oh well  would be possible to identify a scout that *only* had scavengers in, and apply these sorts of tests only in those cases If all the stars have to be in perfect alignment for a group scavenger scout to happen this will be a major pita. Can't both worlds not coexist better together, like at the end of the scout, the scavenger(s) get their own loot screen with the massive perma, more ammo? etc... can't weapon nerfing be applied to each player, instead of the whole event? as well as whatever else, radiation storms whatever?
FireFly Posted Jul 14, 2011, 8:49 pm	Tinker, that would make for incredibly confusing events... Normal player 1 - Shoot dammit!!! HC player 1 - I cant, radiation jammed my guns! Normal Player 2 - What the fudge is radiation!? Here is the thing, I think Hardcore players should have their scouting split off entierly from normal players. If you want a normal scout, HC players could jump on their normal account instead, given that we dont make people "Choose" one. Either way, under no circumstance should a hardcore player be able to play under "Normal" rules, I think at the most "normal" players can join a hardcore scout under the hardcore rules, but no way further than that. To keep the challenge up for the HC players, and things fair  :)
Juris Posted Jul 14, 2011, 8:55 pm	I'm not scouting with a bunch of irradiated 'Scabs' rolling in junker cars with half loads of ammo anyway... What Chase said - exploiting means you actually gain an advantage - swapping loot cars with non-Scab players would just bring you up to 'normal', not give an advantage. Of course, if Scabs get training bonuses then maybe, but I just can't see this happening. People who would switch to hardcore mode aren't going to want to cheat since it would make this option meaningless.
*Tinker* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 9:07 pm	FF here's the thing, we got to keep both groups of players (not game modes) playing together, if it's easy to just flip a switch to join the CH mode then i think that's great. I don't want to join HC mode and have nobody to play with, or have to wait 2 weeks to play with some friends. That's what's the most important to me at least
FireFly Posted Jul 14, 2011, 9:28 pm	The way I see it it would be great if you could simply ask in the lobby for a HC mode scout, those who wanted it could effortlessly switch to the HC mode, or the other way around. Like the flick of the switch, maybe not even having to change the account inside the client, sort of tying two gangs to one account. Then again, that sounds almost TO convenient, heh
*viKKing* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 10:27 pm	Sam don't forget to add the feature to revoke players complaining too much from Scavenger mode.
*sam* Posted Jul 14, 2011, 11:07 pm	viKKing said: Sam don't forget to add the feature to revoke players complaining too much from Scavenger mode.  Just you and me left then viKK. Like the old days eh?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 14, 2011, 11:09 pm	*sam* said: viKKing said: who said that
Cavefish Posted Jul 14, 2011, 11:37 pm	However it will be decided I just want to raise one point. The DW community is small, at odd hours it may take a while to even form a single scout. Fracturing the community into two separate games more or less with the introduction of Scavengers, would be highly detrimental to the game as a whole if the two groups would be unable to interact with one another to a meaningful degree.
*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Jul 15, 2011, 1:44 am	*sam* said: viKKing said: Sam don't forget to add the feature to revoke players complaining too much from Scavenger mode.  Just you and me left then viKK. Like the old days eh?  I haven't been here to complain. So get with the times and make it a threesome.
Checkers Posted Jul 15, 2011, 2:35 am	I would just like to point out that, should softcore players scout with hardcore players, the various conditions that hardcore players have to endure will effectively make them liabilities in a scout. *Rezeak* said: I haven't been here to complain. So get with the times and make it a threesome. You haven't been here for the last three months. How are things?
ninjamonkey73 Posted Jul 15, 2011, 4:38 am	Link to a description of exactly what we're talking about?
Karz Master Posted Jul 15, 2011, 5:51 am	*sam* said: viKKing said: Sam don't forget to add the feature to revoke players complaining too much from Scavenger mode.  Just you and me left then viKK. Like the old days eh?  ....... <---- ???
Groove Champion Posted Jul 15, 2011, 7:10 am	I'll try out DW:Scavenger. Don't want a second gang. Suck it up, cowards!
Serephe Posted Jul 15, 2011, 7:14 am	Groove Champion said: I'll try out DW:Scavenger. Don't want a second gang. Suck it up, cowards! But people want to have their cake and eat it too.
*sam* Posted Jul 15, 2011, 7:52 am	ninjamonkey73 said: Link to a description of exactly what we're talking about? I'll post more details in a few days (I need to think some more about how it will work), but essentially the main thing is that scavenger gangs won't use money and won't be able to buy and sell in the marketplace or at Jake's. The main effect is that they will tend to use damaged, lesser equipment and will be often scrounging for ammo etc. So, more of a wasteland and less of a country club  If you take a look at goat's "an experiment" thread in the subscriber forum you'll get some idea.
*sam* Posted Jul 15, 2011, 7:53 am	Karz Master said: *sam* said: viKKing said: Sam don't forget to add the feature to revoke players complaining too much from Scavenger mode.  Just you and me left then viKK. Like the old days eh?  ....... <---- ??? Nov 2006? Pffft.. n00b
Serephe Posted Jul 15, 2011, 8:04 am	How easy would it be to make damage to items cause a variety of effects? For example a damaged rocket launcher could be less accurate OR jam OR have a lowered capacity OR explode prematurely. Just a thought. If they're gonna be using damaged gear, it'd be nice if damage to gear actually did something (beyond the current below 50% jamming we get).
*Bastille* Posted Jul 15, 2011, 8:49 am	Typed twice already and browser refreshed. Make simple more. yes to two gangs, no to 2 week turn over(like FF said can't be bothered to requote), can't decide two weeks in advacne how to play, that said its a test I guess. I can put A team on hold while I play B team. Vacation mode for one team if can switch so no training for both teams. Factions for all this would be ulimate I think, then 1 gang. Juris said NPCs need mega perma too, I agree. More gun jams, yes
*viKKing* Posted Jul 15, 2011, 10:37 am	*sam* said: viKKing said: Sam don't forget to add the feature to revoke players complaining too much from Scavenger mode.  Just you and me left then viKK. Like the old days eh?  Huh, no, you would then be alone, I can't remind something I did not complain about...  Instead of two gangs, could there be a "scavenger" sub section of the same gang instead?
theHumungous Posted Jul 15, 2011, 4:25 pm	I agree with being able to put your 'main' gang on vacation or somehow switching between the two - maybe at will. I mean, if you can send yourself anything anyway, what's it matter? Just shouldn't be able to play both of your gangs in one event. As far as the NPC goes, yeah, they'll need to have damaged vehicles - maybe a little at least. Fighting pristine vehicles every time wouldn't make much sense.
FireFly Posted Jul 15, 2011, 5:45 pm	theHumungous said: As far as the NPC goes, yeah, they'll need to have damaged vehicles - maybe a little at least. Fighting pristine vehicles every time wouldn't make much sense. Haha, I remember 18 months or so back when this got removed  Edit, to be fair, it was only randomly damaged chassis, it would be cool if AI vehicles had random component damage applied at the start of an event, and a pristine weapon would be really rare... Actually Sam, question... In DW:Scavenger, will we be able to "Repair" equipment like we are right now, or is a 85% MG going to stay an 85% mg until you loot a fresh one? I hope for the latter myself
*sam* Posted Jul 15, 2011, 6:20 pm	Serephe said: How easy would it be to make damage to items cause a variety of effects? For example a damaged rocket launcher could be less accurate OR jam OR have a lowered capacity OR explode prematurely. Just a thought. If they're gonna be using damaged gear, it'd be nice if damage to gear actually did something (beyond the current below 50% jamming we get). Could do all of those easily enough, yes. Again, the point is that by having DW:S in place, we can start to experiment with these sorts of changes properly without the soul-destroying backlash of complaints. And some of them will turn out to be really good changes...
*sam* Posted Jul 15, 2011, 6:21 pm	theHumungous said: I agree with being able to put your 'main' gang on vacation or somehow switching between the two - maybe at will. I mean, if you can send yourself anything anyway, what's it matter? Just shouldn't be able to play both of your gangs in one event. As far as the NPC goes, yeah, they'll need to have damaged vehicles - maybe a little at least. Fighting pristine vehicles every time wouldn't make much sense. Yeah, you should probably be able to switch at will, having reflected on it some more. This would greatly reduce the concern about this feature 'splitting the already small community' RE damage - yep!
*sam* Posted Jul 15, 2011, 6:24 pm	FireFly said: In DW:Scavenger, will we be able to "Repair" equipment like we are right now, or is a 85% MG going to stay an 85% mg until you loot a fresh one? I hope for the latter myself  I haven't decided. I think goat's suggestion was that some repairs would be possible provided you had your own mechanics and sufficient spare parts. Don't forget, if you take into account increased perma-damage, then repair won't be as effective as it is now.
*Urban Decay* Posted Jul 15, 2011, 6:42 pm	Why not simply have the option to go into DW:S actually be separate from your main gang. That way your Scavenger gang could start at square one, and not be able to interact with non scavenger gangs. Could maintain your current gang, and have the scavenger version function independently. Have people looking for a scout in scavenger mode have a separate color in the SCT tag on lobby. Leave it like this during testing phases to allow more people to opt into it. Once testing completes you could then make the decision which gang you want to continue with. The other will be wiped off of the server and you continue as that version of your gang. By then balance issues can easily be sorted to have DW:S gangs scout alongside DW gangs.
theHumungous Posted Jul 15, 2011, 7:09 pm	Repairing stuff is totally necessary, I think. That's part of it, kit-bashing your gear back together after a fight. That's one of the main draws to it in my eyes. Also... keeping my 'real' gang is important too!
Crazy AL Posted Jul 15, 2011, 7:46 pm	Serephe said: Groove Champion said: I'll try out DW:Scavenger. Don't want a second gang. Suck it up, cowards! But people want to have their cake and eat it too. Why the F#@K would I want to have cake I can't eat????
FireFly Posted Jul 15, 2011, 7:48 pm	*sam* said: FireFly said: In DW:Scavenger, will we be able to "Repair" equipment like we are right now, or is a 85% MG going to stay an 85% mg until you loot a fresh one? I hope for the latter myself  I haven't decided. I think goat's suggestion was that some repairs would be possible provided you had your own mechanics and sufficient spare parts. Don't forget, if you take into account increased perma-damage, then repair won't be as effective as it is now. Well, goat's probably hit the bullseye with that one, as long as everyone just cant repair everything to 90% as soon as they get it I'm happy. To put it in other words, I think that getting "Great loot" should equal to a 90% or above condition HMG in this mode of play, and that no gun should be repaired above 80% or something along those lines... If I understand right most guns the AI use will be down to that level anyway, so it sounds fair that players should have an equally ####ty time repairing their guns... Simplified, the standard perma for all gear lies around 20%, "Good loot" starts out with 0 - 10% perma on it
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Jul 15, 2011, 7:53 pm	I'm not overly concerned with details until I've wandered into this thing and seen its initial design. Just posting here to say that as long as the destruction of my current gang isn't a requirement for participation, I will be all over scavenger mode. Sounds like a frustratingly brilliant concept all-around.
Serephe Posted Jul 15, 2011, 8:29 pm	I'd like to see the return of the desert tank and blaster to the wild.
FireFly Posted Jul 15, 2011, 9:43 pm	Make armor really expensive to, so we would frequently see underarmored players and AI vehicles alike... *FLASH* MAKE ARMOR A COMMODITY!!! No really, any destroyed points of armor can be taken of dead vehicles or maybe they get added next to the scrap metal, either way any armor stripped off a looted vehicle gets added as a commodity. Not only does this mean that bigger vehicles like apaches become tougher to armor but this also means that we now have this commodity, armor, that everybody needs. This might just make armor the most valuable item in the game. And maybe, just maybe skilled mechanics could produce armor from scrap metal...
*Tinker* Posted Jul 15, 2011, 10:22 pm	FireFly said: Make armor really expensive to, so we would frequently see underarmored players and AI vehicles alike... *FLASH* MAKE ARMOR A COMMODITY!!! No really, any destroyed points of armor can be taken of dead vehicles or maybe they get added next to the scrap metal, either way any armor stripped off a looted vehicle gets added as a commodity. Not only does this mean that bigger vehicles like apaches become tougher to armor but this also means that we now have this commodity, armor, that everybody needs. This might just make armor the most valuable item in the game. And maybe, just maybe skilled mechanics could produce armor from scrap metal... scrap metal is already used for making armor in camps, and i'm guessing in town too, your saying have the "processed" scraps be traded on the town market as B armor, A armor? but i hope if you scrape off armor off loot cars there would be a significant loss in the transfer to the market, maybe your good mecs can help with that given time, meaning it's not instantaneous, but wonder if the mec has to be unavailable for scouts while this is going on. but this "ready made" armor would have the advantage of what? faster/instant rearmoring? come to think of it all armor should be default C grade
FireFly Posted Jul 15, 2011, 10:27 pm	*Tinker* said: FireFly said: Make armor really expensive to, so we would frequently see underarmored players and AI vehicles alike... *FLASH* MAKE ARMOR A COMMODITY!!! No really, any destroyed points of armor can be taken of dead vehicles or maybe they get added next to the scrap metal, either way any armor stripped off a looted vehicle gets added as a commodity. Not only does this mean that bigger vehicles like apaches become tougher to armor but this also means that we now have this commodity, armor, that everybody needs. This might just make armor the most valuable item in the game. And maybe, just maybe skilled mechanics could produce armor from scrap metal... interesting, scrap metal is already used for making armor in camps, your saying have the "processed" scraps be traded on the town market as armor, but i hope if you scrape off armor off loot cars there would be a significant loss in the transfer to the market, maybe your good mecs can help with that given time, meaning it's not instantaneous, but wonder if the mec has to be unavailable for scouts while this is going on Well tínker, if this applies you have to remember that you have to loot armor just to be able to repair your own vehicles, or have mechs enough to convert looted scrap metal into armor... Otherwise, have fun hunting with pedestrians  ... is it just me that is starting to think that, given this mode has no money, you might need a restart button?
*Tinker* Posted Jul 15, 2011, 10:34 pm	I get what your saying, and would be nice if you got the option to really break down cars to more appropriate returns, unlike what you now get in camps
Serephe Posted Jul 15, 2011, 10:39 pm	There's always town events -- and town events shouldn't be removed from scavenger, they should just pay in something other than cash. The game story was originally based around the deathsports after all. It's a shame to see how scouting has swallowed it so badly. Especially with solo scouting.
FireFly Posted Jul 15, 2011, 10:53 pm	Risk vs Rewards sere... Compeditive Deathracing is suicide, even to veterans, compared to scouting The gains are also like comparing sonics to fire engines
Crazy AL Posted Jul 16, 2011, 3:02 am	JeeTeeOh said: I'm not overly concerned with details until I've wandered into this thing and seen its initial design. Just posting here to say that as long as the destruction of my current gang isn't a requirement for participation, I will be all over scavenger mode. Sounds like a frustratingly brilliant concept all-around. Same here
*Bastille* Posted Jul 16, 2011, 4:45 am	yeah kinda the same here, I want to stick my 2 cents in too though . I made a suggestion at one point that all eqipmeent would be good or average health at 50%. Good loot is 75% theres no such thing as 100% unless you have one guru mech that can machine and weld to save his life. Do damaged chassis limit the amount of armour that can be used, or just make it hard to drive?
FireFly Posted Jul 16, 2011, 5:29 am	Bastille said: Do damaged chassis limit the amount of armour that can be used, or just make it hard to drive? Pretty sure it weakens the average armor strenght, although I'd prefer the version you are suggesting
Crazy AL Posted Jul 16, 2011, 6:01 am	Bastille said: yeah kinda the same here, I want to stick my 2 cents in too though . I made a suggestion at one point that all eqipmeent would be good or average health at 50%. Good loot is 75% theres no such thing as 100% unless you have one guru mech that can machine and weld to save his life. Do damaged chassis limit the amount of armour that can be used, or just make it hard to drive? A damaged chassis affects overall vehicle performance. A 100% example vehicle with 100 armor points will be affected as such: Chassis at 90% will mean that total armor would now be 90, each side only being 90% effective. Speed would be reduced 90% as well. Not sure how handling is affected.
*Tinker* Posted Jul 16, 2011, 8:35 am	Crazy AL said: Bastille said: yeah kinda the same here, I want to stick my 2 cents in too though . I made a suggestion at one point that all eqipmeent would be good or average health at 50%. Good loot is 75% theres no such thing as 100% unless you have one guru mech that can machine and weld to save his life. Do damaged chassis limit the amount of armour that can be used, or just make it hard to drive? A damaged chassis affects overall vehicle performance. A 100% example vehicle with 100 armor points will be affected as such: Chassis at 90% will mean that total armor would now be 90, each side only being 90% effective. Speed would be reduced 90% as well. Not sure how handling is affected. and travel range is also reduced, idk by how much 10% maybe?
Serephe Posted Jul 16, 2011, 8:55 am	Been thinkin. Rather than permadamage, I'd like to see each event cause damage to each component/engine/chassis used... with it all being repairable from scrap metal etc salvaged from scouting. But here's the kicker: Have it so that lower percentages are cheaper to repair than the higher percentages in scrap metal cost. So it might be fairly trivial to get that HMG or Moray to 85% but to get it to 100% might mean you can only maintain a few of them. Of course, with the way damage works now, not really viable.. but I can dream.
*viKKing* Posted Jul 16, 2011, 9:09 am	Serephe said: Been thinkin. Rather than permadamage, I'd like to see each event cause damage to each component/engine/chassis used... with it all being repairable from scrap metal etc salvaged from scouting. But here's the kicker: Have it so that lower percentages are cheaper to repair than the higher percentages in scrap metal cost. So it might be fairly trivial to get that HMG or Moray to 85% but to get it to 100% might mean you can only maintain a few of them. If you consider 1 scrap metal unit can be used to fix some damage, the following formula : (100 - damages)/100 will change how much damage 1 unit of scrap metal can fix. It means it will require more and more units of scrap metal to fix 1% of an item regarding damage state. This is something very basic, I'm not a math guy.
shama Posted Jul 16, 2011, 10:08 am	There's some interesting ideas how, so I'll throw in my meagre input too ... ARMOUR It would be good if armour was a commodity too, and could be removed from loot vehicles, but I'm not convinced basic armouring needs any degree of mech ability. It is essentially just sheet metal that can be cut off by a monkey with an angle grinder. It would be bulky though. I personally am not a mechanic, but given enough sheet scrap metal and some welding gear I reckon I could armour up my car. Making that armour lightweight though would definitely involve some skill. So as someone said, maybe C armour is the default and doesn't need any skill to make. A or B requires increasing levels of ability though. TWO-GANGS I think it would definitely defeat the point if people could just convert their existing gang to DW:Scavenger mode, because then there would be a large number of highly skilled scavengers ... gangers who may well not have been able to get to that level if they'd started from day 0 in that mode. Additionally being able to switch your single gang between the two modes is even more of a game breaker. Combined with the fact that people would like to keep their existing gang, and dabble with scavenger, it would seem to make sense to allow a second scavenger gang to be played. As for how you stop people from transferring cars/weapons/etc between gangs, maybe it is just as simple as not being possible to transfer between scav and non-scav gangs.
Serephe Posted Jul 16, 2011, 10:09 am	Maybe we could limit scavenger gangs to real low numbers, to encourage group scav scouts.
Diezel Posted Jul 16, 2011, 11:21 am	Greetings, I just would like to say that i fail to understand why the scavenger(s) can't manipulate money and be part of the economy. Also, why the mode must be a separate so called "hardcore" mode instead of being just more depth in the in game. Since, those wanting a real hardcore have the latitude to refrain themselves wherever they want at any level of the gameplay. Regards, Diezel.
*sam* Posted Jul 16, 2011, 11:55 am	Diezel  said: Greetings, I just would like to say that i fail to understand why the scavenger(s) can't manipulate money and be part of the economy. To make the game more challenging for them, mostly. Diezel  said: Also, why the mode must be a separate so called "hardcore" mode instead of being just more depth in the in game. Since, those wanting a real hardcore have the latitude to refrain themselves wherever they want at any level of the gameplay. Human nature doesn't really work that way. Most people need the game to enforce rules for them. Also because this is a multiplayer game, part of the attraction is other people knowing how well you have progressed within known rules
Serephe Posted Jul 16, 2011, 12:06 pm	More immersive, not more challenging -- the challenge comes with it hopefully, but it's immersion that I'm after personally. I want to play in the post apocalypse, not in a sandbox in my backyard. Also, why can I suddenly facebook like posts?
*sam* Posted Jul 16, 2011, 12:08 pm	Serephe said: Also, why can I suddenly facebook like posts? Because I'm just experimenting with it!  I'm trying to get a 'like' feature into posts, basically.. seems useful. Not sure about facebook wallspam it creates though - useful sometimes but not always desired
Serephe Posted Jul 16, 2011, 12:29 pm	It knows my name!
*sam* Posted Jul 16, 2011, 12:49 pm	It's a facebook plugin though - only people that are already your friends in facebook will see your name listed - all your numerous DW enemies won't see it
Serephe Posted Jul 16, 2011, 1:21 pm	Oh well that's good to know, I hadn't considered that.
*Bastille* Posted Jul 16, 2011, 1:48 pm	hmm, yes good point!
Crazy AL Posted Jul 16, 2011, 9:43 pm	shama said: There's some interesting ideas how, so I'll throw in my meagre input too ... ARMOUR So as someone said, maybe C armour is the default and doesn't need any skill to make. A or B requires increasing levels of ability though. This is good shama said: TWO-GANGS I think it would definitely defeat the point if people could just convert their existing gang to DW:Scavenger mode, because then there would be a large number of highly skilled scavengers ... gangers who may well not have been able to get to that level if they'd started from day 0 in that mode. Additionally being able to switch your single gang between the two modes is even more of a game breaker. Combined with the fact that people would like to keep their existing gang, and dabble with scavenger, it would seem to make sense to allow a second scavenger gang to be played. As for how you stop people from transferring cars/weapons/etc between gangs, maybe it is just as simple as not being possible to transfer between scav and non-scav gangs. Also good. Where does armor come from? If scrap metal is a direct conversion, then scrap metal becomes the armor repair commodity and it takes a higher skilled mech to get to B and A armor. I like that the default armor would be C as that would keep the speed of the cars down and hopefully less turtling. Turtling a car in Scav mode would be devastating.
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Jul 16, 2011, 9:56 pm	*sam* said: viKKing said: Sam don't forget to add the feature to revoke players complaining too much from Scavenger mode.  Just you and me left then viKK. Like the old days eh?  LOL! I think I can claim to be one from "the old days" who didn't complain!
*Bastille* Posted Jul 16, 2011, 10:19 pm	Are you complaining that you were not included
Zephyr Posted Jul 17, 2011, 4:04 am	[quote=shama]ARMOUR So as someone said, maybe C armour is the default and doesn't need any skill to make. A or B requires increasing levels of ability though. Where does armor come from? If scrap metal is a direct conversion, then scrap metal becomes the armor repair commodity and it takes a higher skilled mech to get to B and A armor. I like that the default armor would be C as that would keep the speed of the cars down and hopefully less turtling. Turtling a car in Scav mode would be devastating.[/quote] These are all great ideas. I am looking forward to Scavenger mode. However I've gotta say I really think it would be better off as its own alternate server. People would need to start their scavenger gangs from scratch. Or perhaps have it on separate servers but the same game world, with some difficult way to move in between the two, the way WURM Online has its "Wild" server and its "Freedom" server, representing two different continents in the same game world.
*Urban Decay* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 4:46 am	Separate servers is more then likely out of the question entirely as that would require a lot more investment to run 2 completely separate versions of the game simultaneously. I still say there should be a DW:S version of your gang that starts from nothing and works its way up. While maintaining your current gang. With no trading allowed between DW:S members and normal members whatsoever until all the kinks get worked out. A separate server just for DW:S would either increase lag and put a potential strain on the server, or require additional hardware. If there is indeed a DW:S version of your gang running, then more people would take the plunge into the testing phases. Which could potentially get more gangs interested in remaining there after the testing phase is concluded, and the bugs are worked out as far as keeping it balanced.
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Jul 17, 2011, 6:34 am	Bastille said: Are you complaining that you were not included  LMAO Bastille..... No complaint here Ya GORGEOUS Roo!..... Now keep your opinions to yourself ya great frog-loving marsupial! =========== Sorry for the thread hijack....
*Tinker* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 10:57 am	*Urban Decay* said: Separate servers is more then likely out of the question entirely as that would require a lot more investment to run 2 completely separate versions of the game simultaneously. I still say there should be a DW:S version of your gang that starts from nothing and works its way up. While maintaining your current gang. With no trading allowed between DW:S members and normal members whatsoever until all the kinks get worked out. A separate server just for DW:S would either increase lag and put a potential strain on the server, or require additional hardware. If there is indeed a DW:S version of your gang running, then more people would take the plunge into the testing phases. Which could potentially get more gangs interested in remaining there after the testing phase is concluded, and the bugs are worked out as far as keeping it balanced. if i get this correctly, a DW:S gangster in your own gang would be isolated from using anything in the npc shops and markets and any car/items looted in non DW:S scout? like it, a kinda of a box within a box
shama Posted Jul 17, 2011, 1:34 pm	*Urban Decay* said: If there is indeed a DW:S version of your gang running, then more people would take the plunge into the testing phases. Which could potentially get more gangs interested in remaining there after the testing phase is concluded, and the bugs are worked out as far as keeping it balanced. For sure. I for one would make a DW:S gang just to see how that played, safe in the knowledge that my current gang can carry on as they are. Treat them as two separate gangs, or logins, if that makes the logistics easier. Something I was just wondering about though, how do you recruit new members to your scav gang? Do you have to wait for the 5 day freebie recruit because you don't use money?
*goat starer* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 1:37 pm	*Grograt* said: what rev said, why do you not think members should be allowed to keep two gangs running serephe, you will lose a hell of a lot of ' scavengers' if you lose your original gang or can never play them again..what about the SCL CAMPS ETC, WHY RUNNING TWO WOULD CREATE A PROBLEM. i think you should not be able to run 2 gangs for reasons very adequately demonstrated by Juan running multiple gangs.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 1:38 pm	*Grograt* said: it will be completely separate as far as i have seen that is not teh suggestion i made. it would be a faction in the main game.. town events would give ammo etc as prizes for people in scavenger
*goat starer* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 1:44 pm	*Grograt* said: I really really really hope, scavenger mode will not have any LASERS,RGMS ALL THE STUPID APOCALYPSE GAME BREAKING TOYS here's hoping. this!
*goat starer* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 1:45 pm	Cavefish said: However it will be decided I just want to raise one point. The DW community is small, at odd hours it may take a while to even form a single scout. Fracturing the community into two separate games more or less with the introduction of Scavengers, would be highly detrimental to the game as a whole if the two groups would be unable to interact with one another to a meaningful degree. most people scout with one or two people only anyway.. this does nothing to 'fracture the community' that peoples friendships do not already do
*Longo* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 3:50 pm	Cavefish said: However it will be decided I just want to raise one point. The DW community is small, at odd hours it may take a while to even form a single scout. Fracturing the community into two separate games more or less with the introduction of Scavengers, would be highly detrimental to the game as a whole if the two groups would be unable to interact with one another to a meaningful degree. You make a good point Cavefish. Although most of the louder voices of the DW forums will quickly bury this and set it aside like so many other ideas simply because its not one of their own or what they specifically want.
*sam* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 4:07 pm	Longo said: Cavefish said: However it will be decided I just want to raise one point. The DW community is small, at odd hours it may take a while to even form a single scout. Fracturing the community into two separate games more or less with the introduction of Scavengers, would be highly detrimental to the game as a whole if the two groups would be unable to interact with one another to a meaningful degree. You make a good point Cavefish. Although most of the louder voices of the DW forums will quickly bury this and set it aside like so many other ideas simply because its not one of their own or what they specifically want. This is one of the reasons I think that everyone should be allowed 2 gangs (who can't interact) - one is scavenger, one is normal
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 5:01 pm	goat starer said: *Grograt* said: it will be completely separate as far as i have seen that is not teh suggestion i made. it would be a faction in the main game.. town events would give ammo etc as prizes for people in scavenger I think things have moved well beyond your suggestion, Goat.  I for one am well in favor of the two completely separated gangs idea.  As for in-town events giving ammo as prizes, doesn't that really amount to re-entry into the monetary system?  All you're doing is eliminating the middleman, i.e. cash.  Since you're voluntarily penniless, you could just bend yer own rules a smidge and spend your prize money only on ammo.  Eliminates the need for special scavenger prize mods. Regarding prior two-gang exploits: As the gangs operate in separate universes (for all practical purposes) I don't think there's a glaring problem here.  Of course, I'm not well-versed in (or inclined to) screwing games to my own advantage and may not be able to spot these things.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 8:22 pm	JeeTeeOh said: goat starer said: *Grograt* said: it will be completely separate as far as i have seen that is not teh suggestion i made. it would be a faction in the main game.. town events would give ammo etc as prizes for people in scavenger I think things have moved well beyond your suggestion, Goat.  . and i think that only sam and i have actually spent any time working out how it might work
*goat starer* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 8:23 pm	Longo said: Cavefish said: However it will be decided I just want to raise one point. The DW community is small, at odd hours it may take a while to even form a single scout. Fracturing the community into two separate games more or less with the introduction of Scavengers, would be highly detrimental to the game as a whole if the two groups would be unable to interact with one another to a meaningful degree. You make a good point Cavefish. Although most of the louder voices of the DW forums will quickly bury this and set it aside like so many other ideas simply because its not one of their own or what they specifically want. lomgo.. for years you scouted with noone but latte... your DW 'community' was 2 people and a few market transactions
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 8:36 pm	goat starer said: JeeTeeOh said: goat starer said: *Grograt* said: it will be completely separate as far as i have seen that is not teh suggestion i made. it would be a faction in the main game.. town events would give ammo etc as prizes for people in scavenger I think things have moved well beyond your suggestion, Goat.  . and i think that only sam and i have actually spent any time working out how it might work My mistake.  Didn't realize the suggestion was something beyond the forums.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 17, 2011, 11:18 pm	JeeTeeOh said: goat starer said: JeeTeeOh said: goat starer said: *Grograt* said: it will be completely separate as far as i have seen that is not teh suggestion i made. it would be a faction in the main game.. town events would give ammo etc as prizes for people in scavenger I think things have moved well beyond your suggestion, Goat.  . and i think that only sam and i have actually spent any time working out how it might work My mistake.  Didn't realize the suggestion was something beyond the forums. there was a long discussion... a paper of suggestions... an active 'trial' of playing like this in the current game.... comments from people... further discussion... Sam is not doing this on a whim.. as with ALL previous changes how about people stop being such a bunch of haters until it happens... in years of being here mos good changes have stayed... there have been a few bad ones... they have gone... nothing is perfect but nobody is trying to screw up the game.. least of all sam. or for that matter me.
*Longo* Posted Jul 18, 2011, 2:51 am	goat starer said: Longo said: Cavefish said: However it will be decided I just want to raise one point. The DW community is small, at odd hours it may take a while to even form a single scout. Fracturing the community into two separate games more or less with the introduction of Scavengers, would be highly detrimental to the game as a whole if the two groups would be unable to interact with one another to a meaningful degree. You make a good point Cavefish. Although most of the louder voices of the DW forums will quickly bury this and set it aside like so many other ideas simply because its not one of their own or what they specifically want. lomgo.. for years you scouted with noone but latte... your DW 'community' was 2 people and a few market transactions Thanks for supporting the comments above with this statement.
*Bastille* Posted Jul 18, 2011, 2:52 am	EDIT:missed your post longo, in reply to above that bit nah, just the opposite. trying to find that balance between where we're at and sams ultimate vision of what he wanted DW to be. (where we're at is pretty cool and why I like this new faction idea) could scavengers just get better fame bonus from events? and maybe mech boosts. Scavengers will need some way of accuiring goods, probably just less organised and formal as merchant based gangs so I think the ammo will be necessary. I see scavengers as effectually not actually living in town, but basically their own camp (not a formal camp). Thats why they can't trade. Showing up in town events helps them get known, mech enthusiasts watching the deathsports might return to the camp briefly to help out and this boosts mech rating for a period. Encouraging deathsports for scavengers being my idea here over a straight barter. ammo comes from local donations? these vagrants that return to help out at home base bring... ammo (this is starting to sound silly. dunno, ideas). Ammo is received from fame and rep? The more fame the more people frequent,... sorta thing?
*viKKing* Posted Jul 18, 2011, 7:56 am	Scavengers should not be able to run regular events (ones with provided vehicles), because as it was stated previoulsy it would break the spirit of modifications brought by DW: Scavengers. With such events set aside, any kind of reward is fine, as vehicles need to be fixed at a later stage. Before realizing this, I was about to propose a system built upon fame points to buy services from local shops.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 18, 2011, 10:10 am	Longo said: goat starer said: Longo said: Cavefish said: However it will be decided I just want to raise one point. The DW community is small, at odd hours it may take a while to even form a single scout. Fracturing the community into two separate games more or less with the introduction of Scavengers, would be highly detrimental to the game as a whole if the two groups would be unable to interact with one another to a meaningful degree. You make a good point Cavefish. Although most of the louder voices of the DW forums will quickly bury this and set it aside like so many other ideas simply because its not one of their own or what they specifically want. lomgo.. for years you scouted with noone but latte... your DW 'community' was 2 people and a few market transactions Thanks for supporting the comments above with this statement. supporting the comment that cavefishes comment is typical hokum?
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Jul 18, 2011, 4:00 pm	We've already established that most of us in the forums are working with limited information. I, for example, thought Goat's current scavenger experiment was something he was doing on his own out of boredom. (Re: vague RP posts about endings and beginnings) Turns out it was an in-game test of an idea that had been in development for some time. News to me! So maybe once the idea is taken to the forums - where the majority are hearing and/or discussing an idea for the first time - those that know the whole story can take the comments for what they are: observations and opinions offered from the sideline after a partial glimpse of what's going on. Bashing other players as "haters" after a) they've been encouraged to participate in the forums, and b) you took the discussion public, doesn't contribute to participation. Quite the opposite, actually. Instead, you could give the comments the weight they deserve (more or less, depending on how much information the player has) and then either use them to point your efforts in new directions or just disregard them. Seems a more productive approach from where I sit.
Parapsycho Posted Jul 18, 2011, 5:56 pm	Maybe this issue has been raised before (I've been super busy, so havent read the topic in-depth): but what happens when a Scavenger loses their only car? Will they get a 'free' rental? Will they just be given a car? Will they "lose" the game at that point?
shama Posted Jul 18, 2011, 6:00 pm	JeeTeeOh said: Instead, you could give the comments the weight they deserve (more or less, depending on how much information the player has) and then either use them to point your efforts in new directions or just disregard them. Seems a more productive approach from where I sit. Very wise. The problem with design-by-committee is that it doesn't work, or if it does work then it produces results that no-one is 100% happy with. The only real way that works is someone leads the design and takes input from others. How much of that input is used is entirely up to the designer. Some may be good, and fit into the grand scheme. Other stuff is a distraction, or just makes things more complicated for no good reason. Spotting which category the feedback is in is the tricky bit When you start asking for input/feedback from larger numbers of people you will end up with multiple conflicting viewpoints, with probably small overlaps between the various ideas. For example, in my mind having scavengers able to play town events for ammo seems fine - and doesn't just change money into ammo. Money can be used for a range of things, ammo can't. Sure ammo could then be bartered with other scavengers but that is still a far cry from the current system of stores and shops selling pristine components/vehicles for money. Anyway, I look forward to how this takes shape.
Juris Posted Jul 18, 2011, 6:06 pm	ParaPsycho said: Maybe this issue has been raised before (I've been super busy, so havent read the topic in-depth): but what happens when a Scavenger loses their only car? Will they get a 'free' rental? Will they just be given a car? Will they "lose" the game at that point? They should be eaten by other scavenger gangs I've wondered about this too - what if you just run out of ammo?  What if you don't have the scrap/mech etc. to fix that gaping hole in your door?  What if you don't have spare tyres? The solution is obvious (from CW of course) - Amateur Night... arena fight, keep the car if you win.
Parapsycho Posted Jul 18, 2011, 6:09 pm	Juris said: The solution is obvious (from CW of course) - Amateur Night... arena fight, keep the car if you win. Brilliant! I love it!
*Bastille* Posted Jul 19, 2011, 12:28 am	yeah, very nice. Arena Events could have real purpose for scavengers I would think. The idea of not so random loot piles (hidden supply depots) after scouts to try keep those poor stuggling souls afloat was another idea. But this would not work for the gang alreay failed, and probably open to exploit too.
FireFly Posted Jul 19, 2011, 12:58 am	"On your way back home, you come across an abandoned raider supply cache..." Give player option to search it and maybe trigger an event, raider battle or maybe creatures attacking the searching peds... We still need those, would give a new side to scouting
*viKKing* Posted Jul 19, 2011, 6:12 am	Juris said: but what happens when a Scavenger loses their only car? Will they get a 'free' rental? Will they just be given a car? Will they "lose" the game at that point? They should be eaten by other scavenger gangs I've wondered about this too - what if you just run out of ammo?  What if you don't have the scrap/mech etc. to fix that gaping hole in your door?  What if you don't have spare tyres? You are misunderstanding a point of Scavengers and still considering the single play of the game. Providing no more help to a "failed" gang is meant to encourage collaborative kind of gameplay.
*Tinker* Posted Jul 19, 2011, 8:44 am	ParaPsycho said: Juris said: The solution is obvious (from CW of course) - Amateur Night... arena fight, keep the car if you win. Brilliant! I love it! +1 maybe it should be a buggy, that you could keep Also there was talk about having to use peds to go fight cars but what happens if you rum out of bullets, and ped bullets?
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Jul 19, 2011, 3:21 pm	viKKing said: Juris said: but what happens when a Scavenger loses their only car? Will they get a 'free' rental? Will they just be given a car? Will they "lose" the game at that point? They should be eaten by other scavenger gangs I've wondered about this too - what if you just run out of ammo?  What if you don't have the scrap/mech etc. to fix that gaping hole in your door?  What if you don't have spare tyres? You are misunderstanding a point of Scavengers and still considering the single play of the game. Providing no more help to a "failed" gang is meant to encourage collaborative kind of gameplay. Ahhhh yes.  The plot thickens.  I like this; if yer gang is completely screwed, you need to rely on those around you. The problem I saw with 'amateur night' is unless it's open only to gangs with no cars it's a relatively danger-free way to build a fleet of vehicles. Also easily exploitable: trade all your cars to somebody for, I dunno, dirt or something, then get another ride at amateur hour, rinse and repeat.
Juris Posted Jul 19, 2011, 10:17 pm	viKKing said: Juris said: but what happens when a Scavenger loses their only car? Will they get a 'free' rental? Will they just be given a car? Will they "lose" the game at that point? They should be eaten by other scavenger gangs I've wondered about this too - what if you just run out of ammo?  What if you don't have the scrap/mech etc. to fix that gaping hole in your door?  What if you don't have spare tyres? You are misunderstanding a point of Scavengers and still considering the single play of the game. Providing no more help to a "failed" gang is meant to encourage collaborative kind of gameplay. I don't get what you're saying.  Are you saying that a "failed" or startup gang should have to rely on handouts and not be able to enter an Amateur Night event and get a (beat-up) vehicle? Getting handouts from other players defeats the purpose of Scavenger.  A Scavenger gang should have to fight for survival, not plead with other players for free stuff. Once a Scavenger gang gets a few beaters from Amateur Night they can start cannibalizing to build a complete scout vehicle - all without relying on freebies.  Its not like AN is going to be some huge windfall - the vehicle you get is going to take damage from the event itself.  You won't just be able to hide behind a corner of the arena, you'll have to WIN to keep the vehicle, that means taking risks (and damage).
Groovelle Posted Jul 20, 2011, 12:39 am	So a "request amateur night" under the events near request stock race/deathrace/combat?
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Jul 20, 2011, 3:21 am	Juris said: Getting handouts from other players defeats the purpose of Scavenger.  A Scavenger gang should have to fight for survival, not plead with other players for free stuff. Once a Scavenger gang gets a few beaters from Amateur Night they can start cannibalizing to build a complete scout vehicle - all without relying on freebies.  Its not like AN is going to be some huge windfall - the vehicle you get is going to take damage from the event itself.  You won't just be able to hide behind a corner of the arena, you'll have to WIN to keep the vehicle, that means taking risks (and damage). Sold!
Zephyr Posted Jul 20, 2011, 7:18 am	FireFly said: "On your way back home, you come across an abandoned raider supply cache..." Give player option to search it and maybe trigger an event, raider battle or maybe creatures attacking the searching peds... We still need those, would give a new side to scouting  That sounds like how Sam's described the upcoming "Into the Ruins" events.  Does sound like much fun.  I suggested something similar a while back, allow beginning / low-fame gangs to go on "scavenger" missions whereby they can have peds search piles of scrap for random useful objects.  Npc pirate cars and/or nasty bugs start appearing at an accelerating rate. Players have to collect their peds and escape before they are overrun.
FireFly Posted Jul 20, 2011, 10:37 am	Hey, we already do have the wave spawn implemented right? Adapt it to one of those events, the longer the player holds his area the more loot he gets when he evacs
*Tango* Posted Jul 20, 2011, 12:29 pm	if you needed a rp reason why scavengers don't trade with others you could always blame a secular religon
FireFly Posted Jul 20, 2011, 12:35 pm	Tango said: if you needed a rp reason why scavengers don't trade with others you could always blame a secular religon Nah, scavengers might just have "The Plague", that works better  Actually, I wonder, since there is no money involved you might as well go ahead with the "Pirate camps" idea... Better put, make scavengers player raiders, that would justify the non dealing with "Normal" players, at least a little.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 21, 2011, 5:02 pm	or everyone else could have the plague
*Rev. V* Posted Jul 21, 2011, 8:52 pm	...or the herpes....
triad4evr Posted Jul 22, 2011, 2:43 am	You know, I actually like the sounds of this... I like the idea of using kinda beater-y cars and low tech equipment- my ideal Post Apoc vehicle world is a lot more like the Mad Max movies than the shiny plastic laser-wielding high-tech stuff of Car Wars... I always liked the idea of Chassis and Crossbows more than "official" Car Wars... and if everybody has to start over at 0 with a new gang _while_ keeping their main gang (which they cannot interact with), that totally fixes my issues with elite gangs that have been around since day 1 with uber equipment and uber gangers... I completely like the idea of peds having more of an impact... I like the converting Scrap Metal more or less directly to C armor... what about lower-tech but easy to rearm weapons like Vehicular Crossbows? All you need for ammo for that is some wood and a bit of metal, and, of course, a bit of know-how... oh and of course the rarely seen mounted rams and vehicular spikes... Amateur night sounds good, too- maybe you can only enter if you have few or no working vehicles... and maybe in addition to the car being a prize, maybe you get to loot some of the junk from the losers, too...? Or maybe the top few players get to keep their car and loot as if it were a scout... I recall a type of Car Wars event where you fought in three matches, with essentially everybody using the same car, a small car, a medium one, then a bigger one... the rub was you could use anything that you could rip off of your surviving vehicle to upgrade the vehicle in the next match, and you had a certain amount of time to repair and rearm between matches... always wanted to play an event like that.. I am totally opposed to the idea of using your existing gang or any sort of interaction between scav gangs and non-scav gangs, though, totally defeats the point... Love the idea of a machine gun or something actually being a good weapon early on, and love the idea that the various kinds of rams and spikes might actually be a major part of your strategy now... I almost hate to say it but this sounds kinda exciting! Dam# you Sam!!!
triad4evr Posted Jul 22, 2011, 3:23 am	Let me add, too, while we are at it, since everybody would be on even footing, could we at least have a pure PvP environment? You all already know I'm not a fan of PvP, but I'm even less of a fan of forcing PvP in some places, but not in others- it gives the people that exploit it or act like jerks a place to hide where they cannot be revenged upon. Can we at least agree that consistent with the model of this dark-n-gritty thing would be PvP everywhere, from the first town to the last, so nobody could hide? I mean, since Scavenger would be 100% optional and would not interfere with your ability to play the main game... personally I'd rather have no PvP, but partial PvP is even more averse to me.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 22, 2011, 9:35 am	Scavenger ..should be full PVP every where
GrowlingBadger Posted Jul 22, 2011, 10:00 am	Unfortunately I agree, scavenger should be PVP everywhere. GB
*sam* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 10:56 am	I agree with the full pvp thing for scavengers, yes. Again, the way I personally see the scavenger thing is as a beta-test system as well as a fun way to play. There's many things that have been suggested to improve the game that we couldn't even try out because of player resistance. Anyone signing up to the optional scavenger part would do so under the understanding that new game features will be tested out there. (Obviously I'm not going to try out anything that's knowingly unbalanced).
FireFly Posted Jul 22, 2011, 11:01 am	*sam* said: (Obviously I'm not going to try out anything that's knowingly unbalanced). Does that go for VS ai encounters
*sam* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 11:48 am	FireFly said: *sam* said: (Obviously I'm not going to try out anything that's knowingly unbalanced). Does that go for VS ai encounters  The NPCs will tend to have damaged equipment, but other than that I'm thinking we'll start with no changes to their squad strength. This can be changed if we find out it's too difficult..
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 22, 2011, 11:50 am	Hurrt up then ... jeez ... i need a DW boost
FireFly Posted Jul 22, 2011, 11:56 am	*sam* said: FireFly said: *sam* said: (Obviously I'm not going to try out anything that's knowingly unbalanced). Does that go for VS ai encounters  The NPCs will tend to have damaged equipment, but other than that I'm thinking we'll start with no changes to their squad strength. This can be changed if we find out it's too difficult.. All good, as I hope that goes for the players to To be fair, you'll probably have to reduce the average AI strength down south, as you probably wouldn't have ammo to from heavy gunlines... How the hell are you going to find CC ammo anyway? That crap is going to be worth more than the CC's themselves  By the way, on the adding armor as a commodity that you use to repair vehicles that was brought up in the other thread, how doable is that?
*sam* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 12:39 pm	FireFly said: By the way, on the adding armor as a commodity that you use to repair vehicles that was brought up in the other thread, how doable is that? Fairly do-able yes. I'm not sure that it's needed though - why not just use scrap metal?
*sam* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 12:44 pm	Alrighty then! I have edited Goat's suggestions document which he sent me a few weeks ago, and taken additional ideas from this thread and the 'experiment' thread. Here's my initial plan (more can be done later): --------------------------- THE BASICS Players can run both a normal gang and scavenger gang. There will be an option on the website to switch from controlling one to controlling the other. The scavenger gang will belong to a new Scavengers faction (and cannot leave it). Scavenger gangs are given a quantity of food, ammunition, water, fuel, car parts and scrap metal in place of the normal starting cash. (I would suggest that the ammo corresponds to one or more of the rental chassis). Scavenger gangs have no access to cash - this is the most fundamental aspect of the idea. The player must loot food, fuel, car parts, water, medicines and ammunition to keep their gang operating. In Scavenger these items would be substituted for cash prizes in town events so that a gang always has an option to continue playing. SCOUTING & LOOTING Scavenger gangs may scout only with other Scavengers Loot will include additional items: - Medicine: having medicine in your lock up would work the same way as hospital does now. - Food and water:| gangs would have to keep a stock of food and water to prevent gang members from starving - Additional Ammo: ammunition 'destroyed' in game (other than by fire) would be available in the loot box - looting of hand weapons and sometimes handweapon ammo is required (and would be useful in the 'normal' game too) DAMAGE + REPAIRS Faster perma damage - sometimes even when the item wasn't even hurt in the event (i.e., natural wear and tear). Damaged weapons will jam sometimes, even at better states of repair. NPCs will typically use damaged stuff The 'cost' of car repairs is calculated in car parts and scrap metal rather than cash. For engine and weapon repairs a certain number of car parts must be expended For chassis repairs scrap must be used For armour repairs each unit of scrap will repair 15-ish points of armour (depends on rarity of chassis). It takes a good mechanic to fix armour grade A, and a reasonable one to fix armour grade B. Any fool can do C repairs. TRADING A cashless marketplace will be open only to scavenger gangs, with passwords and with the ability for players to attach notes to each item in the market: these notes would allow the item's owner to state their requirements for a trade, and for interested parties to negotiate. This system would be open to abuse (ie. player one might list his item and have it taken whilst player 2 never lists theirs) - that said it might make it realistic to be done over every once in a while. If someone defaults on an agreement, they will be shut out of trading pretty quick by everyone else.. TOWN EVENTS Scavengers are exempt from entry fees. Their prizes are paid in food, water, ammo. A new category of stock town event will be created: 'scavenger' events - where every car starts with randomised initial damage MISSIONS Missions would still be available with the mission reward being paid in food, fuel, ammo, medicines or weapons. MISCELLANY No access to camps (for the moment) Full pvp No access to lasers or RGMs The return of the jamming of electronic weapons due to certain aurora conditions OTHER IDEAS I'M UNSURE OF AND/OR WHICH REQUIRE SIGNIFICANT DEV. WORK 'Amateur Night' idea. It would be an arena combat maybe run a few times a week at scheduled times, and the winner gets to keep their vehicle. 'Scavenger' missions: you use peds to search piles of junk for random useful items. NPC pirate cars and/or creatures spawn over time.. eventually your peds need to get back into their cars and escape
*viKKing* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 12:52 pm	*sam* said: (I would suggest that the ammo corresponds to one or more of the rental chassis). I would suggest scavengers to start with one clip (1 unit of ammo) of any existing ammo (they can use regarding Laser and RGM restrictions). PS: so far so good Sam and Goat
*sam* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 12:57 pm	This sounds like such fun I might even play myself (cough)
FireFly Posted Jul 22, 2011, 1:21 pm	*sam* said: FireFly said: By the way, on the adding armor as a commodity that you use to repair vehicles that was brought up in the other thread, how doable is that? Fairly do-able yes. I'm not sure that it's needed though - why not just use scrap metal? Economics, Scrap metal could substitute for C armor, while for B and A armor it would need to be processed by skilled mechanics. Hence B and A armor would become a trading commodity, and that would be fairly cool I think. This system would also make the option for "Reinforced" (call it S-class armor) viable. Note, S class armor for example would be horrendusly expensive to make, say, 1 scrap for one C would be 10 scrap for 1 S and a skilled mech. And armor gets shot up either way, even if it's slightly stronger, so it's not something one can have a lot of, maybe just for that special car. That makes it sound worth it to me (ps - Also, sam, I cant find the sound effect the car rifles use, help me out here man!) (pps - the ATG and CC both use the "Biggun", right?)
*viKKing* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 2:42 pm	*sam* said: THE BASICS Players can run both a normal gang and scavenger gang. There will be an option on the website to switch from controlling one to controlling the other. The scavenger gang will belong to a new Scavengers faction (and cannot leave it). Scavenger gangs are given a quantity of food, ammunition, water, fuel, car parts and scrap metal in place of the normal starting cash. (I would suggest that the ammo corresponds to one or more of the rental chassis). Scavenger gangs have no access to cash - this is the most fundamental aspect of the idea. The player must loot food, fuel, car parts, water, medicines and ammunition to keep their gang operating. In Scavenger these items would be substituted for cash prizes in town events so that a gang always has an option to continue playing. I suppose scavengers gangs are starting from scratch. What about recruitment?
FireFly Posted Jul 22, 2011, 3:02 pm	viKKing said: *sam* said: THE BASICS Players can run both a normal gang and scavenger gang. There will be an option on the website to switch from controlling one to controlling the other. The scavenger gang will belong to a new Scavengers faction (and cannot leave it). Scavenger gangs are given a quantity of food, ammunition, water, fuel, car parts and scrap metal in place of the normal starting cash. (I would suggest that the ammo corresponds to one or more of the rental chassis). Scavenger gangs have no access to cash - this is the most fundamental aspect of the idea. The player must loot food, fuel, car parts, water, medicines and ammunition to keep their gang operating. In Scavenger these items would be substituted for cash prizes in town events so that a gang always has an option to continue playing. I suppose scavengers gangs are starting from scratch. What about recruitment? Ohh, I've got an idea, give all new starters 10 free recruits to get started, but no buying of characters allowed, enforce a strict 5-7 day recruit cool-down. (hence the 10 starters so you have something to work with)
Serephe Posted Jul 22, 2011, 3:56 pm	I'd rather see the ability to "recruit" folks you defeat in combat, with a gang reset if you get wiped out.
*Bastille* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 4:26 pm	Thx for pushing him, goat I hope I last a week. I like that recruitment idea serephe
*sam* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 4:33 pm	FireFly said: viKKing said: *sam* said: THE BASICS Players can run both a normal gang and scavenger gang. There will be an option on the website to switch from controlling one to controlling the other. The scavenger gang will belong to a new Scavengers faction (and cannot leave it). Scavenger gangs are given a quantity of food, ammunition, water, fuel, car parts and scrap metal in place of the normal starting cash. (I would suggest that the ammo corresponds to one or more of the rental chassis). Scavenger gangs have no access to cash - this is the most fundamental aspect of the idea. The player must loot food, fuel, car parts, water, medicines and ammunition to keep their gang operating. In Scavenger these items would be substituted for cash prizes in town events so that a gang always has an option to continue playing. I suppose scavengers gangs are starting from scratch. What about recruitment? Ohh, I've got an idea, give all new starters 10 free recruits to get started, but no buying of characters allowed, enforce a strict 5-7 day recruit cool-down. (hence the 10 starters so you have something to work with) That sounds about right, FF, yep.
*sam* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 4:35 pm	Serephe said: I'd rather see the ability to "recruit" folks you defeat in combat, with a gang reset if you get wiped out. Nice idea for the future, would need a bit of work; specifically, it should probably tie in with some kind of 'loyalty' rating (and characters recruited from your enemies would start off at low loyalty). Disloyal gangers would start to leave if the gang morale was low.
Serephe Posted Jul 22, 2011, 4:42 pm	Morale would have meaning!
*viKKing* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 4:54 pm	Morale does already have a meaning. It could be modifier to loyalty though. BTW, we will need a set of special T-Shirts to celebrate this and a logo, for sure (don't get me wrong we already have a Longo ).
Rokkitz Posted Jul 22, 2011, 6:50 pm	Loving it! But we need new cars too... Especially ones with smaller engines, C armor and standard tires, right? Considering that we will no longer be able to buy cars, there are several that are not seen in the wild. Also, no rotaries, oil jets, mounted spikes etc. I figure we will need to create chassis for these and rarity should be discussed later. I for one would love to see more oil jets, mounted spikes and maybe a bit less optimized setups (such as double RLs or double HMGS front). I would also like to see much fewer muscle cars and much more sedans. Engines should be nerfed significantly to stage where a 3.2L or better is a real find. Most normal cars don't have 2L even. Important to keep this balanced of course, we need to keep the game fun and fast paced. I would also suggest keeping the CR low on the NPC cars. Fewer guns and less armor would mean that the players (who naturally will max out weapons) will meet lots of enemies. Getting swarmed by buggies and Single MG armed PUs would make life tough if youre stuck with limited ammo and weapons that only fires when they want to. Name:    Pillager Description: New chassi with small bite. At least he is not alone... Chassi:    Alpha Occupants:    2 Engine:    1L Tires:    Standard Weapons:    MG front, Light Rocket left Cargo:    1 MG ammo Fuel tank:    2 Armor type:    C Armor Front:    15 Armor Rear:    12 Armor Left:    12 Armor Right:    12 Armor Top:    4 Armor Bottom:    5 Weight:    2169 Combat rating:    74 Name:    Ravager Description: Exposed engine on a weak chassi but with low-weight weaponry. Is that smoke I smell? Chassi:    Estate Occupants:    2 Engine:    2,5L (exposed) Tires:    Standard Weapons:    RL front, re-ram front, oil jet rear Cargo:    1 RL ammo, oil jet ammo, Roll Cage Fuel tank:    7 Armor type:    C Armor Front:    18 Armor Rear:    15 Armor Left:    15 Armor Right:    15 Armor Top:    4 Armor Bottom:    5 Weight:    6146 Combat rating:    101 Name:    Outlaw Description: Spikes and sting. What more do you need? Chassi:    Chevallier Occupants:    2 Engine:    1.8L Tires:    Standard Weapons:    HMG front, Mounted Spikes front, MG back, Light rocket back Cargo:    1 HMG ammo Fuel tank:    3 Armor type:    C Armor Front:    21 Armor Rear:    16 Armor Left:    19 Armor Right:    19 Armor Top:    4 Armor Bottom:    5 Weight:    5024 Combat rating:    125 Name:    Bushwacker Description: Under-sized engine, over-sized gun. Don't let it come close! Chassi:    Pickup Occupants:    2 Engine:    1,6L Tires:    Standard Weapons:    ATG front, Flamer front, MG left, MR right Cargo:    1 spare standard tyre, 1 MG ammo, 1 Flamer ammo, Roll Cage Fuel tank:    6 Armor type:    C Armor Front:    21 Armor Rear:    14 Armor Left:    20 Armor Right:    20 Armor Top:    4 Armor Bottom:    5 Weight:    5124 Combat rating:    171 Name:    Villain Description: Ohh, nice engine! Lets wait till it turtles. Chassi:    Semi Occupants:    2 Engine:    4L Tires:    Standard Weapons:    RL front, MMG front Cargo:    1 RL ammo Fuel tank:    7 Armor type:    B Armor Front:    21 Armor Rear:    14 Armor Left:    20 Armor Right:    20 Armor Top:    4 Armor Bottom:    5 Weight:    4964 Combat rating:    129 Name:    Brigand Description: Lightly armored and full of bad guys. This baby should be fast(ish). Chassi:    Spirit Occupants:    4(!!) Engine:    1,8L Tires:    Standard Weapons:    VSG front, MMG front, Spike Dropper rear Cargo:    1 VSG ammo, 1 MMG ammo, 1 Spike dropper ammo Fuel tank:    2 Armor type:    B Armor Front:    16 Armor Rear:    14 Armor Left:    14 Armor Right:    14 Armor Top:    4 Armor Bottom:    5 Weight:    4018 Combat rating:    100 Name:    Highwayman Description: Slow and lumbering. Look ma, a tank! Chassi:    Hearse Occupants:    3 Engine:    2,5L Tires:    Standard Weapons:    CR front, HMG front, MG back Cargo:    1 CR ammo, 1 HMG ammo Fuel tank:    2 Armor type:    B Armor Front:    30 Armor Rear:    20 Armor Left:    26 Armor Right:    26 Armor Top:    6 Armor Bottom:    6 Weight:    6057 Combat rating:    179 Name:    Harasser Description: Another light and fast sedan with low CR. Chassi:    Symphony Occupants:    2 Engine:    2L Tires:    Standard Weapons:    Flamer front, Flamer front, Paint Spray rear Cargo:    - Fuel tank:    2 Armor type:    B Armor Front:    18 Armor Rear:    14 Armor Left:    16 Armor Right:    16 Armor Top:    3 Armor Bottom:    4 Weight:    4072 Combat rating:    90 Name:    Hijacker Description: A C-armored sunny? Unheard of! Chassi:    Sunrise Occupants:    2 Engine:    2,5L Tires:    Standard Weapons:    RL front, Mounted Spikes Cargo:    2 RL ammo Fuel tank:    2 Armor type:    C Armor Front:    18 Armor Rear:    14 Armor Left:    16 Armor Right:    16 Armor Top:    3 Armor Bottom:    4 Weight:    4310 Combat rating:    100 Name:    Raider Description: Ignore me?! How rude! Chassi:    Buggy Occupants:    1 Engine:    1L Tires:    Standard Weapons:    MG front Cargo:    - Fuel tank:    5 Armor type:    C Armor Front:    10 Armor Rear:    8 Armor Left:    9 Armor Right:    9 Armor Top:    2 Armor Bottom:    2 Weight:    1442 Combat rating:    55
*sam* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 7:03 pm	Another way of approaching this, Rokkitz, would be to have the NPC vehicles start with randomly reduced armour, damaged chassis/weapons and sometimes weapons missing or swapped for something different of equivalent bulk. And yes, definitely there needs to be a good chance of the NPC cars having C armour rather than whatever their build 'normally' has
*JeeTeeOh* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 7:23 pm	This is shaping up to be brilliant! Good job to Sam & Goat, and whoever else deserves some kudos.
GrowlingBadger Posted Jul 22, 2011, 8:13 pm	Quote: Another way of approaching this, Rokkitz, would be to have the NPC vehicles start with randomly reduced armour, damaged chassis/weapons and sometimes weapons missing or swapped for something different of equivalent bulk. Like a FOJ on the front instead of a RL? hehe. GB
d0dger Posted Jul 22, 2011, 8:59 pm	*sam* said: Another way of approaching this, Rokkitz, would be to have the NPC vehicles start with randomly reduced armour, damaged chassis/weapons and sometimes weapons missing or swapped for something different of equivalent bulk. And yes, definitely there needs to be a good chance of the NPC cars having C armour rather than whatever their build 'normally' has I'd love to see randomized weaponry on vehicles. So much of scouting now predetermined... that car has the biggest guns, we take it out first.
*Urban Decay* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 10:43 pm	*sam* said: Nice idea for the future, would need a bit of work; specifically, it should probably tie in with some kind of 'loyalty' rating (and characters recruited from your enemies would start off at low loyalty). Disloyal gangers would start to leave if the gang morale was low.  Why not as part of a ganger being disloyal thier stats, skills, and the willingness to actually listen to your orders would be redued until they start becoming loyal to your gang. They would start becoming loyal based on your overall gang exploits, and would become slightly more loyal by being in successful scouts.
triad4evr Posted Jul 22, 2011, 10:47 pm	Wow so much good stuff to comment about... I love the idea of being able to "trade" gangers as part of a barter system and/or enslave them- that's a whole different idea ("Okay, I will give you my one-armed Sniper capper for that Antagonist...") I do think the barter window will need to be something like the loot window or the typical MMORPG "trade" window, where you drag junk into a box on your side, the person you are trading with can inspect it, then they drag stuff to the box on their side, and then you click an "okay" when you are satisfied, with the "okay" un-flagging if anything changes, and nothing trading until both players have clicked "okay". There's a reason all the big games do it like that- it prevents having to rely on verbal arrangements and it keeps everybody honest. I love the idea of "getting paid" in ammo and commodities- both will mean a lot more in a cashless society. I _really_ love the idea of some randomness to weapons loadout, both in condition and in type- would be interesting to not know for sure if that enemy car is gonna have 2 gats, 2 machine guns, 2 flamethrowers (they really need to be the same size as MGs and GGs, with the heavy ones matching HGGs and HMGs- wouldn't hurt to reduce the size of car rifles, too, though they could be quite deadly in this environment). And we totally need vehicular crossbows, low damage, slightly higher range and chance to crit, relatively easy to produce ammo... Also, and this goes back to my love of Mad Max type movies- maybe this would finally be the time to work out how a ped could shoot ped weapons out the window at an enemy. That would be wild. And ramming must be made a viable strategy in this environment- it's totally how things are done in the Mad Max style of car-warrior movies... would love to actually see somebody use a mounted ram or vehicular spikes/cowcatchers- and those things should be easier to produce and get ahold of than actual guns because they are so simple in design. Will Mechs be able to make weapons and ammo, too? Anyway, this sounds terrific!
*Urban Decay* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 11:12 pm	A typical trade window of that nature would only be seemingly possible while in the wilderness or at a loot screen. An alternative version of that would be to make a trade that works much like the NPC shipping missions. You show what you offer and what you request for the trade to be completed. The other party could send you a counter offer and this can continue until either canceled back to your default offer or accepted. This way trades could happen a little safer then my word that I will honor this trade, and still be in the game client an a more integrateable way.
Flaming savage Posted Jul 22, 2011, 11:12 pm	triad4evr said: Also, and this goes back to my love of Mad Max type movies- maybe this would finally be the time to work out how a ped could shoot ped weapons out the window at an enemy. That would be wild. You have inspired me to create this: http://dw.laasma.ee/carbuilder/view/370/tragic.png The ultimate ped combat machine. Why bother with Machine Guns when you can have 30 shotguns shooting? Would be uber-rare and a formidable foe if peds shooting from cars could be implemented. Could also provide lots of gangers if the slavery aspect of DW:Scavenger. Would be the jackpot for any person playing.
triad4evr Posted Jul 22, 2011, 11:26 pm	Haha now see that bus thing _looks_ like something out of Mad Max! I love it! Oh, hey, Sam, another thought- we might need more creatures that are actually killable with melee weapons- right now they are so much better in melee than the peds, it's sick... but in Mad Max movies, ranged ped weapons are _much_ more rare, especially guns (and ammo for the guns)- lots of spears, spiked clubs, machete/swords... OH and there should be longbows! Those are really common in Mad Max worlds... again, with rather easy to make ammo... but lowish damage... maybe spears that could be thrown and/or used in melee... or maybe just make spears melee weapons, and call the ranged version "javelins" or something like that... Another quick thought I forgot: Loyalty and other "Gang Prestige" stats should probably be a lot less based on town events and a lot more based on wilderness events, since I doubt a lot of people are hanging around watching town events in an environment like this...
*Tinker* Posted Jul 22, 2011, 11:35 pm	*Urban Decay* said: *sam* said: Nice idea for the future, would need a bit of work; specifically, it should probably tie in with some kind of 'loyalty' rating (and characters recruited from your enemies would start off at low loyalty). Disloyal gangers would start to leave if the gang morale was low.  Why not as part of a ganger being disloyal thier stats, skills, and the willingness to actually listen to your orders would be redued until they start becoming loyal to your gang. They would start becoming loyal based on your overall gang exploits, and would become slightly more loyal by being in successful scouts. That is damn scary I love it, if they fail their loyalty test they go off like npc on escort missions, (but please let there be some warning) no idea what that loyalty test could be through... intense pounding by multiple enemy fire?
*Urban Decay* Posted Jul 23, 2011, 12:29 am	Is Scavenger available yet? Really want to check into this. A good reset in a more difficult environment is exactly what I need to improve my skills and get back into playing smarter.
Diabolicboy Posted Jul 23, 2011, 3:58 am	DW: Scavenger - I approve of this product and or service, even tho i'm going to suck at it and most likely be the poorest gang out there
Groovelle Posted Jul 23, 2011, 4:09 am	How about rationing? Rationing and you: Hey gang! The one strike DW has against it that other MMO's don't is that it's too linear. Currently if I'm 30 thousand in debt and make 50 thousand, that's a clean 20 thou in my pocket. The next 50 I make goes straight into the profit pile. It's too easy to "win" and if you, like me, want your gang to struggle, you have to stop playing until the next week (when your debt comes again). (It'll be a bit different in scavenger, but why not a safeguard) The idea from rationing goes like this: It doesn't take much to keep someone fed if they're just getting enough to keep them alive but it takes a lot to keep people very well fed.  There are four levels to rationing. *minimal*, *rationed*, *well fed*, and *satiated*. Each level effects character activity, morale, and amount of food/water consumed. *minimal* corresponds to 1/4 a unit of food, 1/4 a unit of water per ganger. Gang morale suffers heavily from being minimal and so do activity scores. Don't be surprised if your gang members go into battle at  20 and 30% activity and the highest morale you can achieve is 100. I'll save time by saying amount eaten increases with higher rationing, with *satiated* costing 1 to 3.5 food/water a day, morale having the ability to be a full 200, and activity scores at they're usual 100%. To spice it up a bit, setting your gang to *minimal* when they have resources at hand to eat better makes gangers desert. There should be a warning about this if you've ticked minimal. Rationing would be a set of radio buttons somewhere in the gang pages - set your level and set your level of success. TL;DR: DW needs more ways in which to keep playing without outright winning - this is one of them. Doesn't matter but I got the initial idea from my experiences playing Runsecape - you could play that game hardcore for years and not have a full set of "good" armour to play around with. DW needs a bit more depth in that respect. Edit: Oh, and Sam, reading the scavenger initials gave me a gamer tingle. That hasn't happened in years.  Keep on keeping on.
Groovelle Posted Jul 23, 2011, 4:18 am	Also, one thing I'd like to see tested is scavenger gangs get updated as a far as food/water/all costs daily instead of weekly. The thing that really stops me from playing DW in any hardcore fashion is that after catching up on Friday/Saturday there's no reason to play until next Friday. For instance, if the Sims had updated the want bars once a week instead of constantly over a day, I don't think there would have been a compelling reason to stay on the grind to try to "green" out the want bars as there is. I'd like to be able to scout a bit every day and not feel behind, or in front of, the curve.
Crazy AL Posted Jul 23, 2011, 6:24 am	Groovelle said: How about rationing? Rationing and you: Hey gang! The one strike DW has against it that other MMO's don't is that it's too linear. Currently if I'm 30 thousand in debt and make 50 thousand, that's a clean 20 thou in my pocket. The next 50 I make goes straight into the profit pile. It's too easy to "win" and if you, like me, want your gang to struggle, you have to stop playing until the next week (when your debt comes again). (It'll be a bit different in scavenger, but why not a safeguard) The idea from rationing goes like this: It doesn't take much to keep someone fed if they're just getting enough to keep them alive but it takes a lot to keep people very well fed.  There are four levels to rationing. *minimal*, *rationed*, *well fed*, and *satiated*. Each level effects character activity, morale, and amount of food/water consumed. *minimal* corresponds to 1/4 a unit of food, 1/4 a unit of water per ganger. Gang morale suffers heavily from being minimal and so do activity scores. Don't be surprised if your gang members go into battle at  20 and 30% activity and the highest morale you can achieve is 100. I'll save time by saying amount eaten increases with higher rationing, with *satiated* costing 1 to 3.5 food/water a day, morale having the ability to be a full 200, and activity scores at they're usual 100%. To spice it up a bit, setting your gang to *minimal* when they have resources at hand to eat better makes gangers desert. There should be a warning about this if you've ticked minimal. Rationing would be a set of radio buttons somewhere in the gang pages - set your level and set your level of success. TL;DR: DW needs more ways in which to keep playing without outright winning - this is one of them. Doesn't matter but I got the initial idea from my experiences playing Runsecape - you could play that game hardcore for years and not have a full set of "good" armour to play around with. DW needs a bit more depth in that respect. Edit: Oh, and Sam, reading the scavenger initials gave me a gamer tingle. That hasn't happened in years.  Keep on keeping on. I had proposed something like this in the past regarding the quality with which you treated your gangers. This went back to the proposals when the importance of the other commodities were being tossed about like medicine aiding hurt gangers as was mentioned in Sam's post. You could use 1 unit of food per ganger per day for example and your gang or gang member morale would go up when they were fed more. Good stuff
triad4evr Posted Jul 23, 2011, 7:31 am	I am probably one of the few people that really like the fact that while you _can_ play Dark Winds every day, you don't _have_ to like most MMORPGs... I'd hate to lose that in Scavenger... most of the time I can only play every couple days, that's all the time I have... so let's not be _too_ hardcore on how much daily maintenance is required... we want casual-ish players, too, don't we?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 23, 2011, 10:58 am	triad4evr said: we want casual-ish players, too, don't we? +1u
*viKKing* Posted Jul 23, 2011, 2:46 pm	Although I like the rationning concept I wonder why it has to be so sophisticated in numbers. 1 unit of food/day/character is the bare ninimum to survive 2 units of food/day/character is a superior meal 3 units of food/day/character if you have hobbits gangers (and is a minimum for them). No? ok so 3u/day/char. is "satiated" meal. You could define this once a week only (because any more could be turned into an exploit without coding checks - it would be very easy to set it to max just before it is computed and then set it to minimum the rest of the week). The rationning also needs to take time to reflect effects. Some starved character set to "statiated" would not recover on first week and wealthy character would only degrade slowly once they are starving. Not sure I'm clear enough, but you certainly get an idea. While I would enjoy to be able to perform a few tasks with my gang from time to time through browser only during the week, I agree with triad and Gro about casual-ish point of view.
Rokkitz Posted Jul 23, 2011, 10:54 pm	I dont feel that rationing would add much fun to the game. I think it works fine right now, i e either they eat or they dont and then they starve. Although starvation effect are a bit too rough imho. Have you guys considered how much tougher it will be to gain experienced gangers through field training? It just struck me that since ammo will be a precious commodity you will no longer just unload three mags at a burnt out wreck and then get your peds out and do the same with their rifles. This will add a nice equalizer that will put a break on the shooting skills. Me likes!
*Tinker* Posted Jul 23, 2011, 10:56 pm	Rokkitz said: This will add a nice equalizer that will put a break on the shooting skills. Me likes! +1
*goat starer* Posted Jul 23, 2011, 11:03 pm	*sam* said: Alrighty then! I have edited Goat's suggestions document which he sent me a few weeks ago, and taken additional ideas from this thread and the 'experiment' thread. Here's my initial plan (more can be done later): --------------------------- THE BASICS Players can run both a normal gang and scavenger gang. There will be an option on the website to switch from controlling one to controlling the other. The scavenger gang will belong to a new Scavengers faction (and cannot leave it). Scavenger gangs are given a quantity of food, ammunition, water, fuel, car parts and scrap metal in place of the normal starting cash. (I would suggest that the ammo corresponds to one or more of the rental chassis). Scavenger gangs have no access to cash - this is the most fundamental aspect of the idea. The player must loot food, fuel, car parts, water, medicines and ammunition to keep their gang operating. In Scavenger these items would be substituted for cash prizes in town events so that a gang always has an option to continue playing. SCOUTING & LOOTING Scavenger gangs may scout only with other Scavengers Loot will include additional items: - Medicine: having medicine in your lock up would work the same way as hospital does now. - Food and water:| gangs would have to keep a stock of food and water to prevent gang members from starving - Additional Ammo: ammunition 'destroyed' in game (other than by fire) would be available in the loot box - looting of hand weapons and sometimes handweapon ammo is required (and would be useful in the 'normal' game too) DAMAGE + REPAIRS Faster perma damage - sometimes even when the item wasn't even hurt in the event (i.e., natural wear and tear). Damaged weapons will jam sometimes, even at better states of repair. NPCs will typically use damaged stuff The 'cost' of car repairs is calculated in car parts and scrap metal rather than cash. For engine and weapon repairs a certain number of car parts must be expended For chassis repairs scrap must be used For armour repairs each unit of scrap will repair 15-ish points of armour (depends on rarity of chassis). It takes a good mechanic to fix armour grade A, and a reasonable one to fix armour grade B. Any fool can do C repairs. TRADING A cashless marketplace will be open only to scavenger gangs, with passwords and with the ability for players to attach notes to each item in the market: these notes would allow the item's owner to state their requirements for a trade, and for interested parties to negotiate. This system would be open to abuse (ie. player one might list his item and have it taken whilst player 2 never lists theirs) - that said it might make it realistic to be done over every once in a while. If someone defaults on an agreement, they will be shut out of trading pretty quick by everyone else.. TOWN EVENTS Scavengers are exempt from entry fees. Their prizes are paid in food, water, ammo. A new category of stock town event will be created: 'scavenger' events - where every car starts with randomised initial damage MISSIONS Missions would still be available with the mission reward being paid in food, fuel, ammo, medicines or weapons. MISCELLANY No access to camps (for the moment) Full pvp No access to lasers or RGMs The return of the jamming of electronic weapons due to certain aurora conditions OTHER IDEAS I'M UNSURE OF AND/OR WHICH REQUIRE SIGNIFICANT DEV. WORK 'Amateur Night' idea. It would be an arena combat maybe run a few times a week at scheduled times, and the winner gets to keep their vehicle. 'Scavenger' missions: you use peds to search piles of junk for random useful items. NPC pirate cars and/or creatures spawn over time.. eventually your peds need to get back into their cars and escape thanks sam .. your new stuff is fabulous!
*sam* Posted Jul 26, 2011, 11:17 pm	Just starting to implement this stuff. - any suggestions on how much food, ammunition, water, fuel, car parts and scrap metal should a new Scavenger gang start with?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 26, 2011, 11:26 pm	OOoo ooo cant wait
d0dger Posted Jul 26, 2011, 11:40 pm	*sam* said: Just starting to implement this stuff. - any suggestions on how much food, ammunition, water, fuel, car parts and scrap metal should a new Scavenger gang start with? If you want this to be an option for new players to start right into, probably as much as would be needed to support their gang for 2-4 weeks while they get their bearings.
*sam* Posted Jul 26, 2011, 11:45 pm	I'd only expect it to be used by experienced players, for the most part.
d0dger Posted Jul 26, 2011, 11:47 pm	*sam* said: I'd only expect it to be used by experienced players, for the most part. Then enough for 1-3 scouts. Hah.
Diezel Posted Jul 26, 2011, 11:47 pm	*sam* said: Just starting to implement this stuff. - any suggestions on how much food, ammunition, water, fuel, car parts and scrap metal should a new Scavenger gang start with? What about 1 month without doing anything according to the starting number of gang members?
Juris Posted Jul 26, 2011, 11:49 pm	*sam* said: I'd only expect it to be used by experienced players, for the most part. Nothing, town events give those things right? Okay, a can of dog food and a bad rash.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jul 27, 2011, 12:03 am
*Bastille* Posted Jul 27, 2011, 1:13 am	hehe, my hero... om Quote: Nothing, town events give those things right? Will town events be pro events for scavengers?
Flaming savage Posted Jul 27, 2011, 9:16 am	I'd say enough scrap to for 50 points of C armor, food and water for a week, enough fuel for two scouts and a free repair (instead of estimating the car parts) on a machine gun. Or if thats to hard to implement 20 or so CPs.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 27, 2011, 10:06 am	*sam* said: Just starting to implement this stuff. - any suggestions on how much food, ammunition, water, fuel, car parts and scrap metal should a new Scavenger gang start with? dont know... how much would you use for repairs etc?
*viKKing* Posted Jul 27, 2011, 10:29 am	*sam* said: Just starting to implement this stuff. - any suggestions on how much food, ammunition, water, fuel, car parts and scrap metal should a new Scavenger gang start with? 1 water or food unit/per character/per real life day 10 gangers to start with : 70 food and 70 water for one rl week 2 weeks of supply seems fine to me.
*goat starer* Posted Jul 27, 2011, 4:10 pm	i would suggest 10 mg ammo an eliminator with 2 mgs 5 fuel then enough car parts and scrap to repair it to full health from 50% armour, chassis etc once
Rokkitz Posted Jul 27, 2011, 4:34 pm	I suggest NO car to start with. Instead free rentals of a really crappy one. Lets say a completely broke down symphony with 40-75% weapons and no reloads and a 60% engine. (give it a ram and a MMG or something) That way people who run out of resources can always go back to renting the free one. The only trick is: its a real deathtrap. Basically forcing people to group together for safety in the beginning. A fun key thing here is that you will have to earn your first car.
*sam* Posted Jul 27, 2011, 11:17 pm	How important is it to make ammo something you need to scrape together? I'm currently working on the alternative prizes for town events, and since the game considers most ammo to be pretty cheap, even a modest town prize seems to equate to quite a few clips of ammo. Is this ok, or should a heavy reduction be made?
Flaming savage Posted Jul 27, 2011, 11:19 pm	I'd say have quite a few different clips of ammo as prizes. The reasoning is that people won't just the events that suit their ammo needs and will encourage more trading of ammo.
*sam* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 12:10 am	I should point out, prizes are actually randomised - you don't get to see what they are before you win them.. this is by far the easiest way to implement it. All you'll know before-hand is the '$ equivalent' size of the prize
d0dger Posted Jul 28, 2011, 12:12 am	will ammo be weighted at all by rarity?
*Bastille* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 12:33 am	Quote: an eliminator with 2 mgs an eliminator is a pretty cool car, a chev or a symph to start?
d0dger Posted Jul 28, 2011, 1:07 am	Bastille said: Quote: an eliminator with 2 mgs an eliminator is a pretty cool car, a chev or a symph to start? nailgun
Serephe Posted Jul 28, 2011, 7:40 am	Killer Bee.
Rokkitz Posted Jul 28, 2011, 9:22 am	Random ammo prizes are cool. Yes, heavy reduction is called for. I would expect to win 1-3 mags for placing and 2-5 for winning. It is enough. Consider that you might use 1-2 clips per scout. So one town event should give you enough for 1 scout? Then trading ammo will be a fun and frustrating part of the game too. Important to know if the mag that is already in the weapon is reloadable as per normal, or if you need to use your ammo stash and potentially start a scout with half-filled guns. Often when I scout from camps I dont reload at all, so having auto-reload would defeat the scarsity of ammo. We could also have a mission that lets you earn your first car by completing town events or similar. I just thought about how important empty bulk will be in scouts. Suddenly the carrier van is worth something and the garbage truck is da shizz!
*goat starer* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 1:40 pm	*sam* said: How important is it to make ammo something you need to scrape together? I'm currently working on the alternative prizes for town events, and since the game considers most ammo to be pretty cheap, even a modest town prize seems to equate to quite a few clips of ammo. Is this ok, or should a heavy reduction be made? very heavy reduction... i'm not struggling to stay in ammo now without any way to generate stuff... it should be 3 or 4 clips for winning a race
*goat starer* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 1:41 pm	d0dger said: will ammo be weighted at all by rarity? should be... you should only get the rare stuff for multiple player town events,leagues etc
*goat starer* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 1:42 pm	Bastille said: Quote: an eliminator with 2 mgs an eliminator is a pretty cool car, a chev or a symph to start? random small chassis with perma etc?
Rokkitz Posted Jul 28, 2011, 4:01 pm	goat starer said: d0dger said: will ammo be weighted at all by rarity? should be... you should only get the rare stuff for multiple player town events,leagues etc Looking at the prizes for ammo makes me think that there is no way to do a reasonable function between price money and ammo rarity. Just consider that a gat and a ATG clip costs the same, a flechette clip costs 2,5 times as much while a Light rocket rack clip costs 8 (!!) times as much as a gat clip. I think this will need to be revised for Scavenger. As a side note I still feel that its should be "you use what you loot or trade for" kind of game. Not a you "use what you win in rather safe town events". The market will decide what is worth a lot or not. For instance, no one would pay twice as much for a flechette clip as for a CC clip, would they? Useful things will automatically yield a higher price than a worthless one. Let the market decide the price I say!
JS Posted Jul 28, 2011, 4:08 pm	Rokkitz said: goat starer said: d0dger said: will ammo be weighted at all by rarity? should be... you should only get the rare stuff for multiple player town events,leagues etc Looking at the prizes for ammo makes me think that there is no way to do a reasonable function between price money and ammo rarity. Just consider that a gat and a ATG clip costs the same, a flechette clip costs 2,5 times as much while a Light rocket rack clip costs 8 (!!) times as much as a gat clip. I think this will need to be revised for Scavenger. As a side note I still feel that its should be "you use what you loot or trade for" kind of game. Not a you "use what you win in rather safe town events". The market will decide what is worth a lot or not. For instance, no one would pay twice as much for a flechette clip as for a CC clip, would they? Useful things will automatically yield a higher price than a worthless one. Let the market decide the price I say! Scarcity and demand will regulate the market.
*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Jul 28, 2011, 6:08 pm	Crazy AL said: JeeTeeOh said: I'm not overly concerned with details until I've wandered into this thing and seen its initial design. Just posting here to say that as long as the destruction of my current gang isn't a requirement for participation, I will be all over scavenger mode. Sounds like a frustratingly brilliant concept all-around. Same here Ditto for me. I don't want to lose what I have spent so much time building and it would be nice to enjoy the challenge of starting a new gang again. As long as the gangs can be kept seperate and no trading goods among them I don't see why each person couldn't be allowed a gang in each mode. At least until some jerk figures out a way to screw the system.
*Tinker* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 6:19 pm	Rokkitz said: Just consider that a gat and a ATG clip costs the same, a flechette clip costs 2,5 times as much while a Light rocket rack clip costs 8 (!!) times as much as a gat clip. If you ask me the FG is worth it, especially in scavenger mode, as for the rocket rack ammo, I don't care to give an opinion on that. But being able to swap weapons in an instant should help with that concern
*Ninesticks* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 8:03 pm	Just a quick shout for Sam to say thanks for all the work you are putting in to this concept, it is deeply appreciated.
*sam* Posted Jul 28, 2011, 11:21 pm	Thanks nine! Hopefully it will turn out to be popular.. Just to clarify for anyone who is still concerned: your current gang will be unaffected. You will have two gangs, one scavenger and one non-scavenger, who will not be able to interact.
JS Posted Jul 28, 2011, 11:35 pm	*sam* said: Thanks nine! Hopefully it will turn out to be popular.. Just to clarify for anyone who is still concerned: your current gang will be unaffected. You will have two gangs, one scavenger and one non-scavenger, who will not be able to interact. Don't ask don't tell?  Can they see each other off duty?
*Bastille* Posted Jul 29, 2011, 12:33 am	*Ninesticks* said: Just a quick shout for Sam to say thanks for all the work you are putting in to this concept, it is deeply appreciated. hear hear hopefully this change will holds its own rewards for the GM. The GM never gets to play.
*sam* Posted Jul 31, 2011, 11:41 pm	Rokkitz said: As a side note I still feel that its should be "you use what you loot or trade for" kind of game. Not a you "use what you win in rather safe town events". I think this may be an important point. Do we actually want to be able to win ammo in 'rather safe' town events? Or should town events strictly supply you with food, water (and fuel?), and stay true to the 'Birth of Deathracing' backstory?
Marrkos Posted Aug 1, 2011, 1:02 am	*sam* said: Do we actually want to be able to win ammo in 'rather safe' town events? Or should town events strictly supply you with food, water (and fuel?), and stay true to the 'Birth of Deathracing' backstory? The latter, IMO.
Groovelle Posted Aug 1, 2011, 4:26 am	I agree with Marrkos.
Crazy AL Posted Aug 1, 2011, 4:48 am	Ditto
*Bastille* Posted Aug 1, 2011, 8:52 am	Ammo for events was more a mechanism to stop total failure?
*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 1, 2011, 9:23 am	True, but you might be able to barter your food, water and fuel for ammo from other scavengers. However, much of the worry can be addressed by strictly limiting how much and what type of ammo can be claimed as a prize to keep the total failure protection in place.
*Bastille* Posted Aug 1, 2011, 9:44 am	There could be many ways to provide a safety net, it wouldn't have to come from events. I brought it up at one point thinking it might encourage more people to take part in town events (in light of the rerun of the first ever Evan race, and consequent mentions of "bring back the death sports") I thought this actually fit in with the backstory. Fight for survival, theres your gun, heres your ammo, if you want food, you better learn how those two interact with each other (maybe I have to go back and read it again, it has been a while)
*goat starer* Posted Aug 1, 2011, 10:17 am	to be fair i have had absolutely no problem looting enough ammo to keep going. I can't use my hmgs at the moment but my mmgs, mgs, rls, mmls are all fine.
*sam* Posted Aug 1, 2011, 4:23 pm	OK, I'll remove ammo, scrap metal and car parts as event prizes then, leaving just food, water and fuel. It can easily be changed when we have done some playtesting.
GrowlingBadger Posted Aug 1, 2011, 4:24 pm	How about high end ammo - which could be anything from HMGs to TG according to Goats reports. GB
Rokkitz Posted Aug 1, 2011, 4:25 pm	On the point of stopping total failure, it does not get solved by having ammo. If you aint got a car! In more exclusive town events, such as a once a month deathrally or similar, I think it would be excellent to bring in the more rare prices that will not otherwise be available (im thinking chassis that do not appear in the wild such as a dustup, NOT lasers). In regular town events I think water and food should suffice. Ammo prices are fine if they are very rare and perhaps odd. I would hate to see players "milking" town events for rare ammo and gear and then go out and playing the game like it was regular DW vs opposition in crap cars and limited ammo. I would rather see Scavenger events being pinkslip and such. The all-in combats sound wonderful too! Keeping the townevents deadly and costly is the key. If we do that, then prices can be as high as ever.
GrowlingBadger Posted Aug 1, 2011, 4:28 pm	Hmm, I disagree with myself already. High end ammo should be lootable only I recon. GB
*sam* Posted Aug 1, 2011, 5:39 pm	goat starer said: to be fair i have had absolutely no problem looting enough ammo to keep going. I can't use my hmgs at the moment but my mmgs, mgs, rls, mmls are all fine. Your earlier suggestion was that we'd need extra ammo at loot time, since you were finding it quite frustrating finding enough. You have revised this opinion?
*goat starer* Posted Aug 1, 2011, 7:19 pm	yeah.. i think i have if anything its still a bit easy!
FireFly Posted Aug 1, 2011, 7:25 pm	goat starer said: yeah.. i think i have if anything its still a bit easy! Although remember with armor repairs being limited to your scrap and with extended perma damage, might that not make it harder to "Conserve" ammo in the field? Just a thought, but I'm good either way... Maybe this, limited NPC trade, such as trading food/water for ammunition, doing it like that you could win food/water/fuel and trade it for ammo later on if you've got spare reserves... But it might be a bit wonky, Just the most plausible way I can see it happening.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 1, 2011, 7:29 pm	FireFly said: goat starer said: yeah.. i think i have if anything its still a bit easy! Although remember with armor repairs being limited to your scrap and with extended perma damage, might that not make it harder to "Conserve" ammo in the field? Just a thought, but I'm good either way... Maybe this, limited NPC trade, such as trading food/water for ammunition, doing it like that you could win food/water/fuel and trade it for ammo later on if you've got spare reserves... But it might be a bit wonky, Just the most plausible way I can see it happening. i think the best thing is to start it up and tweak it as it goes... i can only judge from my own experience and that is pretty limited
*Ninesticks* Posted Aug 1, 2011, 8:29 pm	That is a concern, but as you say we need to soak test it at some point and to not expect miracles.
*sam* Posted Aug 1, 2011, 8:46 pm	Yep, my plan is to get everything implemented that I can think of, then switch on goat's Scavenger gang (and maybe a couple of other players') for testing. I'm sure to have forgotten some places where money is normally a factor (it's scattered all over the code on client, server, website, etc.).
FireFly Posted Aug 1, 2011, 9:25 pm	Well you can sign me up for that
*Bastille* Posted Aug 2, 2011, 12:17 am	Quote: if anything its still a bit easy! Once you know the basic mechanics, any game is easy, if you want it to be. The flavour is the important bit.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 3, 2011, 9:41 am	*sam* said: goat starer said: to be fair i have had absolutely no problem looting enough ammo to keep going. I can't use my hmgs at the moment but my mmgs, mgs, rls, mmls are all fine. Your earlier suggestion was that we'd need extra ammo at loot time, since you were finding it quite frustrating finding enough. You have revised this opinion? to slightly revise... yesterday i took down 5 cars without killing any of them completely.... i recovered only one mml clip from those 5 cars. were it not for the ability to reload weapons from markets i would be in a very shaky position ammowise now. we certainly need to be able to strip partial clips from looted weapons and consolidate them into full clips. I would not make more ammo appear.. just let us use the stuff we are looting now (including the stuff in weapons)
*Tinker* Posted Aug 3, 2011, 10:48 am	we could also have the npc have support vehicles
Rokkitz Posted Aug 3, 2011, 1:33 pm	goat starer said: we certainly need to be able to strip partial clips from looted weapons and consolidate them into full clips. I would not make more ammo appear.. just let us use the stuff we are looting now (including the stuff in weapons) +1 This is what we need. No automatic reloads. Stripping ammo: Would require more work for Sam I assume. But it would be the "fair" way of doing things. I e if you take out a car before it has fired a single shot, you get to keep the ammo. More ammo: We dont need massive amounts of extra ammo. It should still be a possibility of "shooting too much". Striking the balance of how much loot ammo is sufficient would be tricky. I would suggest adding a few clips to each scout of whatever ammo has been used would suffice.
Juris Posted Aug 3, 2011, 4:59 pm	*Tinker* said: we could also have the npc have support vehicles +1 I still laugh at the notion of encountering enemy squads of 2 unit fueltank vehicles in the WILDERNESS.  Do these guys operate out of an old Chevron station? Yeah, and the support vehicles should have ammo.
*sam* Posted Aug 3, 2011, 8:36 pm	Rokkitz said: I would suggest adding a few clips to each scout of whatever ammo has been used would suffice. That'd be the easiest thing to do.. edit: boost all lootable ammo by 50% (rounding down, i.e. 5 MG clips in the lootbox becomes 7) ?
*goat starer* Posted Aug 3, 2011, 9:44 pm	*sam* said: Rokkitz said: I would suggest adding a few clips to each scout of whatever ammo has been used would suffice. That'd be the easiest thing to do.. edit: boost all lootable ammo by 50% (rounding down, i.e. 5 MG clips in the lootbox becomes 7) ? is stripping ammo from guns terribly complicated? It feels better
*Urban Decay* Posted Aug 3, 2011, 11:44 pm	Stripping ammo would work like siphoning gas. If you have room in your car for that ammo type, it would act as that amount of ammo of a reload.
Rokkitz Posted Aug 4, 2011, 10:29 am	*sam* said: Rokkitz said: I would suggest adding a few clips to each scout of whatever ammo has been used would suffice. That'd be the easiest thing to do.. edit: boost all lootable ammo by 50% (rounding down, i.e. 5 MG clips in the lootbox becomes 7) ? Yes it would work. Often when there are a lot of cars exploding there is zero ammo after a scout... and that is completely right! Blow it up, you dont get ammo. Hardcore as it should be. Basically, it means hunting Buzzers to get CC ammo.
*viKKing* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 10:53 am	goat starer said: is stripping ammo from guns terribly complicated? It feels better I think it would require Sam to track every shots fired during an event necessiting more data to get collected and code changes. Creating lootable ammo on the fly is much more simple, and that's Sam's way of life: keep it simple to code.
*Tinker* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 12:47 pm	with Sam's formula could always pretend the ammo that was scraped up from the half spend weapons was collected at the end in loot anyways
*goat starer* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 3:05 pm	viKKing said: goat starer said: is stripping ammo from guns terribly complicated? It feels better I think it would require Sam to track every shots fired during an event necessiting more data to get collected and code changes. Creating lootable ammo on the fly is much more simple, and that's Sam's way of life: keep it simple to code. when you loot a gun it still has the remaining ammo in it... so the code must be tracking this already
*sam* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 3:52 pm	The code tracks it, yes. The whole looting system is pretty complex though, so it's definitely easier just to boost the number of full clips rather than create new ones from partial counts, with essentially the same result in terms of gameplay.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 3:58 pm	*sam* said: The code tracks it, yes. The whole looting system is pretty complex though, so it's definitely easier just to boost the number of full clips rather than create new ones from partial counts, with essentially the same result in terms of gameplay. how easy is it to do partial clips and consolidation of clips? perhaps allow partial clips for each weapon not destroyed? are you keeping an eye on the experiment thread in subscribers forum? some stuff in there about gang size and recruiting.
Ragnak Posted Aug 4, 2011, 4:04 pm	Why not just add ammo as part of what could be in trader vans and lorries.
*sam* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 5:02 pm	For mechanic work.. how does this look? Mech Skill > 80 is needed to repair engines, weapons, A armour Mech Skill > 30 is needed to repair chassis, B armour, or resize a fueltank, add/remove a rollcage Anyone can repair C armour
GrowlingBadger Posted Aug 4, 2011, 5:08 pm	How about 50 and 100, and link to new specialisms: -armourer - more efficient (less time / less raw materials needed) when replacing armour. -scavenger - more scrap / car parts looted
*sam* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 5:23 pm	The specialisms are good, but I think 50 is a bit high for the 'midrange' items, especially B armour?
FireFly Posted Aug 4, 2011, 5:58 pm	*sam* said: The specialisms are good, but I think 50 is a bit high for the 'midrange' items, especially B armour? I sort of disagree on that one, I think it would be pretty cool if C was the standard armor, B was rare and A was a once in a blue moon thing  Mind you, a 100 skill mech is incredibly easy to train and mech is by far the easiest skill in the game to train.
Crazy AL Posted Aug 4, 2011, 6:05 pm	FireFly said: *sam* said: The specialisms are good, but I think 50 is a bit high for the 'midrange' items, especially B armour? I sort of disagree on that one, I think it would be pretty cool if C was the standard armor, B was rare and A was a once in a blue moon thing  Mind you, a 100 skill mech is incredibly easy to train and mech is by far the easiest skill in the game to train. Ditto. In Scav, C should be the standard, B should be uncommon and A should be uber-rare. Every car design in Scav should be a C design, with say 15% of the spawn being B armor and 2%-3% being A. With that stated, what if I got so lucky to actually capture an A armored car and wanted to downgrade it to B? What kind of return would I get since it's a cashless society?
*sam* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 6:06 pm	OK, this then? Mech Skill > 100 is needed to repair engines, weapons, A armour Mech Skill > 50 is needed to repair chassis, B armour, or resize a fueltank, add/remove a rollcage Anyone can repair C armour
*Tinker* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 6:37 pm	*sam* said: The specialisms are good, but I think 50 is a bit high for the 'midrange' items, especially B armour? na man B armor is the sweet stuff, it should be worth more then a 30 mechanic imo
*Tinker* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 6:39 pm	*sam* said: OK, this then? Mech Skill > 100 is needed to repair engines, weapons, A armour Mech Skill > 50 is needed to repair chassis, B armour, or resize a fueltank, add/remove a rollcage Anyone can repair C armour I'd say more 150 and 100, minimum
GrowlingBadger Posted Aug 4, 2011, 6:40 pm	Sound good to me Sam. GB
*sam* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 7:37 pm	*Tinker* said: *sam* said: OK, this then? Mech Skill > 100 is needed to repair engines, weapons, A armour Mech Skill > 50 is needed to repair chassis, B armour, or resize a fueltank, add/remove a rollcage Anyone can repair C armour I'd say more 150 and 100, minimum You guys are each just trying to prove that you're more badass than the others, aren't you?  ;-)
d0dger Posted Aug 4, 2011, 8:48 pm	I think we all just remember the game being more fun when it was harder, so they're trying to make it more fun!
*sam* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 9:01 pm	d0dger said: I think we all just remember the game being more fun when it was harder, so they're trying to make it more fun! Ah, could be :-) Well, when the code is all in place the actual figures used for the various calcs will be easy to change after some testing
*goat starer* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 10:34 pm	i say.. make most things unrepairable.. you use it till it breaks then you strap it to the side of your car as D armour! proper badass!
*Tinker* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 10:40 pm	need more permadeath
*sam* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 10:40 pm	The repairs code is a pain in the butt.. getting thru it..
*goat starer* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 10:51 pm	*Tinker* said: need more permadeath i think you should start with characters who are dead
*goat starer* Posted Aug 4, 2011, 10:52 pm	*sam* said: The repairs code is a pain in the butt.. getting thru it.. WORK FASTER! im sure your forefathers were more efficient when they built our canals
Crazy AL Posted Aug 5, 2011, 6:01 am	*Tinker* said: *sam* said: OK, this then? Mech Skill > 100 is needed to repair engines, weapons, A armour Mech Skill > 50 is needed to repair chassis, B armour, or resize a fueltank, add/remove a rollcage Anyone can repair C armour I'd say more 150 and 100, minimum Closer to this, how about C etc. up to 74, B etc. from 75 to 149 and A etc. at 150 and above?
*Urban Decay* Posted Aug 5, 2011, 7:01 am	I say the 100 and 50 system is good for testing. Lets see how that works before we try making it harder. If it is too easy to get the mechs for this baseline, then try 75 and 150.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 5, 2011, 4:37 pm	I think scavenger should have some bulk and chassis limits to stop people building massive hoards of stuff
*Bastille* Posted Aug 6, 2011, 7:28 am	yeah. Quote: Closer to this, how about C etc. up to 74, B etc. from 75 to 149 and A etc. at 150 and above? might not see those high mech figures as often in scavenger mode, but then, a armour should be that rare. And take a month to do (game time) but yeah,if its too easy to a armour something, then crank up the figures later.
Stingray191 Posted Aug 6, 2011, 11:27 am	goat starer said: I think scavenger should have some bulk and chassis limits to stop people building massive hoards of stuff Yeah - honestly - no one watches a huge pile of crap. But when that sometimes needed crap is getting low... people will either steal it or guard it. no one guards a Mt Fuji of scrap but everyone would strive for the "I need this plus the next few weeks"
Fealty Lost Posted Aug 8, 2011, 6:00 am	Several people, a while ago, suggested personal garages. Make it so a player's garage can only hold "X" vehicles securely. Make players have to assign gangers to these garages, like mechs to camps. 2 per garage. If they collect more than the garage can hold, they have to assign 1 ganger per 10 vehicles over the garage limit. So, if your garage holds 20 vehicles, at 21 you have to assign another ganger to security. 30, 2 more, etc. Vehicles left outside suffer weather damage/exposure. "X" percentage points of damage per week left outside. Give garages "material costs." For standard garage you need "X" amount of scrap metal and electronic parts to build one. Gather up the materials, build another garage. Assign more gangers...and so on. Make these garages susceptible to occassional random raids by local thuggies. Depending on equipment of guards and number of them, from zero damage to a couple vehicles receiving a percentage of damage to armor, tires, etc. could happen. On the rare chance, a non-garaged vehicle is made off with. .02
*goat starer* Posted Aug 8, 2011, 9:55 am	Fealty Lost said: Several people, a while ago, suggested personal garages. Make it so a player's garage can only hold "X" vehicles securely. Make players have to assign gangers to these garages, like mechs to camps. 2 per garage. If they collect more than the garage can hold, they have to assign 1 ganger per 10 vehicles over the garage limit. So, if your garage holds 20 vehicles, at 21 you have to assign another ganger to security. 30, 2 more, etc. Vehicles left outside suffer weather damage/exposure. "X" percentage points of damage per week left outside. Give garages "material costs." For standard garage you need "X" amount of scrap metal and electronic parts to build one. Gather up the materials, build another garage. Assign more gangers...and so on. Make these garages susceptible to occassional random raids by local thuggies. Depending on equipment of guards and number of them, from zero damage to a couple vehicles receiving a percentage of damage to armor, tires, etc. could happen. On the rare chance, a non-garaged vehicle is made off with. .02 i like this stuff... having to leave security sounds like a good idea... if you drove out of town with all your guys leaving a decent chassis or parts in your shed they would last 30 seconds
*viKKing* Posted Aug 8, 2011, 3:06 pm	I like it too.
*Wolfsbane* Posted Aug 8, 2011, 4:30 pm	But ... my collection of rare skins
*Bastille* Posted Aug 8, 2011, 5:42 pm	should be ok as long as we make an overall limit of 2-300 cars yeah, this stuff makes sense
Glurps Posted Aug 8, 2011, 9:50 pm	I expect a lot of deaths in this mode, correct ? What do you think then about lowering the spec requirements ? (especially for the no training ones : courage, leadership) Also please, fix the abuse of hiring and firing gangers.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 8, 2011, 10:39 pm	Glurps said: I expect a lot of deaths in this mode, correct ? What do you think then about lowering the spec requirements ? (especially for the no training ones : courage, leadership) Also please, fix the abuse of hiring and firing gangers. i'm happy with it as it is to be honest.. the 23 specialism uber hero always seemed unlikely
*Rev. V* Posted Aug 9, 2011, 9:56 pm	I don't need security.... Who would steal from nuns?
FireFly Posted Aug 9, 2011, 10:01 pm	goat starer said: Glurps said: I expect a lot of deaths in this mode, correct ? What do you think then about lowering the spec requirements ? (especially for the no training ones : courage, leadership) Also please, fix the abuse of hiring and firing gangers. i'm happy with it as it is to be honest.. the 23 specialism uber hero always seemed unlikely To be fair there arent to many of those guys around, myself I really only have 1 or 2 shooters I'd call "Armed with the eye of a devil" The problem is that everyone and their grandmother can shoot really, really well, or rather, almost anyone can be a sniper 3, that's more unlikely than the odd hero... or demon.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 10, 2011, 10:11 am	FireFly said: goat starer said: Glurps said: I expect a lot of deaths in this mode, correct ? What do you think then about lowering the spec requirements ? (especially for the no training ones : courage, leadership) Also please, fix the abuse of hiring and firing gangers. i'm happy with it as it is to be honest.. the 23 specialism uber hero always seemed unlikely To be fair there arent to many of those guys around, myself I really only have 1 or 2 shooters I'd call "Armed with the eye of a devil" The problem is that everyone and their grandmother can shoot really, really well, or rather, almost anyone can be a sniper 3, that's more unlikely than the odd hero... or demon. i had loads
*Bastille* Posted Aug 10, 2011, 10:44 am	I don't have any, I think 13 is still my best. But thats why I am a Raging Scavenger
*sam* Posted Aug 31, 2011, 1:47 pm	When DW:Scavanger comes out of beta testing, we'll be doing a full wipe of all Scavenger gangs; so everyone will start from the same position and no-one will have benefitted from unbalanced game rules during the testing.
Dr Mathias Posted Aug 31, 2011, 8:56 pm	Two old-timers sat in their rocking chairs in front of the Somerset General Store. Pulling his cactus cob pipe from his toothless mouth, the older began to speak. "Hey Cletus, remember them good ole' days when ya got in yer car- maybe it had some machine guns, maybe not- and when ya won sumthin' ya felt... lucky? Like ya earned it?" Cletus shook his head slowly. "I dunno, Ebenezer, them days are pretty far back." "Ta think about it though... almost makes a geezer want to get back behind that old wheel and run some durn puh-destrian fool down while yer gunner lights up some greenhorn scav!" Cletus coughed up a ball of phlegm and cackled. "Hell, Eb, you ain't never drove no car! You was the gunner!" Ebenezer cackled and slapped his knee, but uttered no response. Both geezers replaced their pipes and began to rock.
Desert Fox Posted Aug 31, 2011, 9:59 pm	It wont matter how many gangs you let people have. I see this making people stop playing. Just my 2 cents, guess its a waiting game. Fox
Marrkos Posted Aug 31, 2011, 10:12 pm	Desert Fox said: It wont matter how many gangs you let people have.  I see this making people stop playing.  Just my 2 cents, guess its a waiting game. Fox Pardon?
*Urban Decay* Posted Sep 1, 2011, 12:21 am	Sounds like he is referring to the idea that having people splitting off into Scavenger, there will less people playing thier normal gangs, thus having less people for new players to interact with and perhaps pushing them away. It might cause some lost interest, but those people probably would not have wanted to actually play the game anyway. Of those who do see the new Scavenger mode and hear about it from other players, it could also in turn give them more interest in the game. They could see the normal game mode as practice to try out putting more work then saving money up to buy some shiny new car off the Marketplace, and really fight for what they own. I still say it is good direction, if nothing else it could prove to be a fun grity world, one with perhaps more frequent PvP, and more interesting fights.
*Ninesticks* Posted Sep 1, 2011, 8:03 am	Great to see the old geezers are still out on their porch, good to see you're still around Doc!
*Bastille* Posted Sep 1, 2011, 1:27 pm	They're our sole two subscribers. The Extravaganza has been missed
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Sep 1, 2011, 5:24 pm	Blimey..eh up Dr. Fox ...members who are overly interested in scavenger already are out of the new member equation, the majority of them solo scout normal DW souly and do not participate in multi scouts. having scav run along side your original gang does not split the community, everyone will still need to upkeep their original gangs, its not like we are going to dump them,especially when we have the ability to switch gangs immediately, see a large scout going out switch to normal DW and join in.finish scout see a mate who is scavenger, switch back scout with them, if anything maybe more multi scouting will occur as scavenger will defiantly be more co op at the beginning.
*sam* Posted Sep 1, 2011, 7:19 pm	I think Grograt has it about right.. hopefully
Blaer Posted Oct 11, 2011, 1:04 am	Glurps said: I expect a lot of deaths in this mode, correct ? What do you think then about lowering the spec requirements ? (especially for the no training ones : courage, leadership) Also please, fix the abuse of hiring and firing gangers. Good gravy no... they'll go up fast enough if you get out there and earn'm... and they're all the more joyfully had and appreciated when you have earn'd'm
*Bastille* Posted Oct 11, 2011, 4:51 am	Who is this guy?! Some old school wisdom in there somewhere. I like him
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Oct 11, 2011, 10:35 am	*Bastille* said:   Who is this guy?! Some old school wisdom in there somewhere. I like him You have him mixed up with me!