Muscle Guide- Need Help!, Need chassis descriptions!
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Fifth Posted Sep 9, 2010, 7:51 am |
I'm working on a Muscle Manual for newbies, and I'm almost done with the first draft. The problem is that there's several chassis I've never used, and one section is going over each muscle chassis, explaining its strengths and weaknesses compared to other chassis, and outlining good setups, with a focus on wilderness combat, not town events.
I've used: Phoenix Sunrise Vampire Bullet Buccaneer Pike (once, not very well) Flash (it's a mini-muscle!) I need descriptions for: Stormer Osprey Flail Roadrunner Pike Corghette And any other Muscles I forgot. Let's help the newbs! And the Vets, too! |
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johnny go Posted Sep 9, 2010, 8:13 am |
thats ace!
a guide to muscleing wuld have saved me a world of pain :-) |
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FireFly Posted Sep 9, 2010, 8:25 am |
In my experience...
Osprey: It has decent handling, not the best, but there are worse. The main issue is that if you get locked into a slide, it can take some turns to get back to moving straight. The main strenght lies in it's huge capacity, with a crew of 2 and a 3.2lv8, you still have room for 110 bulk worth of weapons, for example, a HCR/HMG combo works supringly well, but the real fun with that is that it's the most heavily armed musclecar around, and kicks the living snot out of other musclels, if you can handle the weight... Stormer: The main question here is, do you like the sunrise, or do you like the phoenix, this car is, if to simplify, a better sunrise, it's also the best ofroad musclecar in the game (imo) and works wonders on the sand maps around SS... if you can take the ugly and bugged look of it. Pike: Not a lot of people like it, I do, for the reason that it is a (for as long as you dont get shot much) stable car, not much else to say about it. Flail: Well, it's more like driving a mini SuV than a musclecar depending on how you arm it, but for a musclecar, boy does it have a lot of armor and almost as much capacity as the osprey... and thats about it. Moray: ... I just dont like it, cant explain why, but I dont like it. RR: Using it in combats, are you insane? (Unless your name is tinker) And the flash isnt a mini muscle, its a sports car 
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*Bastille* Posted Sep 9, 2010, 8:29 am |
What I understand about my Pike: (purely based on my experience, others may say different)
If you think a Sunrise is too bouncy, walk straight past this baby. Fire 1 shot from a MMG and watch this thing bounce for 4 turns. Sitting still and getting shot will leave you bouncing wildly and struggling for traction and any ability of escape. Even under MML or MG fire you may find yourself stuck for 4-5 seconds hoping it doesn't roll. All that said, it drives over the rough stuff real well (with care) and is fast. Takes some time to get used to the handling (ghost)and tends to understeer heaps into a corner (especially if you fill its huge engine bay with motor) and oversteer like a mofo once it does start to turn. Once you do get used to this though and drive accordingly, shes a dream to drive and low speed manoeuvrability is amazing. Reasonable armour. |
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Sep 9, 2010, 8:32 am |
There was a lot of discussion about the Roadrunner here. You could probably distil something from that.
edit: did you check the comments on each chassis, too? |
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Jet-A1 Posted Sep 9, 2010, 9:09 am |
From the Wiki these are race cars not muscle....Not sure who did the chassis section of the wiki though. The wiki listed the muscles as; 57, Sunrise, Phoenix, Buccaneer, Stormer, Moray, McFly, Roadrunner, Flash, Flail, Pike, Osprey, Corgette. Not sure I'd say the McFly or Flash are muscles, although I would agree the Vampire should be in the muscle list. Is there any differentiation in game for the different chassis types eg do all muscle cars have something similar in their make up compared to say sedans? |
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*Urban Decay* Posted Sep 9, 2010, 10:01 am |
Osprey and Roadrunner are only cars in that list I havn't/Don't own. Need to add a new bullet if that really is muscle and not racer as I thought. Also how is McFLy a muscle? | ||||
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johnny go Posted Sep 9, 2010, 10:40 am |
i think we can play a bit fast a loss definig what a muskel car is. in DW i wuld say a muskel is any thing that reliys on spead and manuverabilaty in combat rather than armor or big guns.
its just a wikki , not the word of god :-) |
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*Urban Decay* Posted Sep 9, 2010, 11:11 am |
Well muscle cars are large hulks of steel, with engines powerful enough to lift a front wheel off the ground if you rev it hard enough while stopped.
They go fast, will turn "eventually", and can be heard before seen. |
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d0dger Posted Sep 9, 2010, 1:31 pm |
Wiki has some inaccuracies. 57 is actually a Sedan in game, not sure about the Vampire. |
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*Bastille* Posted Sep 9, 2010, 1:32 pm |
A flash is kinda like a toe or ear muscle, small and insignificant, tend to get shot off and is rarely missed 
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d0dger Posted Sep 9, 2010, 1:33 pm |
Actually from the venues and records:
Muscle Cars 1: Vampire Sunrise Moray Buccaneer Roadrunner Squadcar Corghette Muscle Cars 2: Stormer Phoenix McFly Pike Flail Osprey Racers 1: Hotrod McKenzie Bullet Flash Racers 2: Royal Eaton DeVille Cougar Turin Sedans: Symphony Fiftyseven Mercenary Moose Chevalier Spirit Voyager Windsor Windsor II Someone fix the wiki, I'm late leaving for work. |
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Sep 9, 2010, 3:01 pm |
I'll fix muscle, race and sedan. Not sure about the other categories though. | ||||
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Fifth Posted Sep 9, 2010, 3:55 pm |
In my experience, a vampire is a muscle.
This is focusing mostly on wilderness combats, and there, a muscle is any car that has muscle speed without an exposed engine. By that token, a Flash is most definitely a muscle. So's a Bullet, which is one of my favorite combat cars. |
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theHumungous Posted Sep 9, 2010, 4:14 pm |
I've tried using the bullet in combat, but the poor offroad ability was always an issue. Which maps are you using the bullet on that works well? | ||||
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Fifth Posted Sep 9, 2010, 4:20 pm |
I've found it worked very well in the offroad sections of Once Upon A Town, and on Road To Somerset it did well. On the other hand, I've ALWAYS used a 50+driver with it. |
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FireFly Posted Sep 9, 2010, 4:47 pm |
Wait what, why in the world is the phoenix in muscle 2, and the sunrise in muscle 1?
While the phoenix is more stable, the sunrise is certainly faster, and neither of them should compete in muscle 2 to begin with. |
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Fifth Posted Sep 9, 2010, 5:04 pm |
The Muscle Manual's first draft is up. Enjoy!
http://www.darkwindwiki.com/index.php?title=Fifth's_Muscle_Manual |
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Sep 9, 2010, 5:23 pm |
Very nice. You might get me back into muscle scouting at this rate... | ||||
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FireFly Posted Sep 9, 2010, 5:39 pm |
Hey now fifth, while that is nicely written, I did not call the flail "Undisputed king", it's more like the queen at the side of the osprey
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*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Sep 9, 2010, 6:04 pm |
I'd say the flail is more like the undisputed king of crap to be honest. But clearly that's not so undisputed as you are currently disputing it by calling it king 
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Fifth Posted Sep 9, 2010, 6:18 pm |
Oooh, good point, I'll pull that. |
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Deathangels Shadow Posted Sep 9, 2010, 6:55 pm |
FWIW, the armor on the Vampire is actually quite a bit weaker than the Phoenix, not just a little.
Also, I don't think you emphasize the paper-like nature of the armor on the Flash nearly enough. There are only two cars in the game with worse armor than a Flash - the McKenzie and the Offroad Buggy. Even the Estate has better armor than the Flash. |
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Deathangels Shadow Posted Sep 9, 2010, 7:30 pm |
Also, what about the Turin? It's got the same armor strength as the Osprey, same engine size, slightly more capacity.
The Turin, Vampire and Flash don't FEEL like Muscle to me, but that's only because a Muscle car refers to a specific type of car that has nothing to do with game terms and everything to do with era and design... but since the Vampire and Flash are already being considered Muscle for game purposes, I would think the Turin would also fit the bill. |
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Fifth Posted Sep 9, 2010, 7:31 pm |
True. I hadn't thought of the Turin until I saw it on a scout, I've never driven one. Anyone want to write a Turin section? |
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Deathangels Shadow Posted Sep 9, 2010, 7:33 pm |
I'm wrong, too, the Turin can fit a 5L v12 unexposed, the Osprey can only fit a 5L v8. Not a huge difference, but still.
For that matter, the McFly has the same armor capacity as a Phoenix or Sunrise with a potentially larger engine, but to be fair a smaller bulk. |
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Sep 9, 2010, 7:46 pm |
Talk to tinker, he scouts with a Turin.
edit: Although to be fair, anyone who can afford a McFly or a Turin should probably know what to do with it
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Deathangels Shadow Posted Sep 9, 2010, 7:57 pm |
Good point... I was just looking at the list and comparing it to my own analysis. I can't afford these cars yet, but I can identify them as having similar characteristics to what is in the muscle list. | ||||
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Fifth Posted Sep 9, 2010, 8:16 pm |
Ah, but scouting alongside a Turin or a McFly doesn't require any special wealth, and it's nice to know roughly want your allies are capable of before the rockets start flying. |
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Lord Foul Posted Sep 9, 2010, 9:21 pm |
Fifth, have you clicked on the little blurb box next to each chassis? It will contain comments from players about that chassis's strengths, weaknesses and other little bits of info that may be helpful.
You could look at each muscle cars player comments and take pieces from each one to add to your muscle guide. |
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johnny go Posted Sep 9, 2010, 9:34 pm |
i have a cupel of points,
if you are going to talk muskel you have to talk about muskel scouting and how noobs can use it to solo relatively safely. if i hadent worked out kiting and forced escapes , or got the hang of "hook and baiting" i wuld proberbly givern up on this game months ago. a look at flanking and its dose and donts wuld be handy too |
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*Tango* Posted Sep 9, 2010, 10:19 pm |
started another thread about that http://www.dark-wind.com/forums2/index.php?a=topic&t=14907 |
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Sep 9, 2010, 10:41 pm |
Here you go Fifth. This is the description of the Roadrunner you can add to your well written wiki addition.
Roadrunner Built in late 1969 and 1970, this design was built for the NASCAR circuit first and consumer off-the-lot versions second. Richard Petty made this car famous with his multiple NASCAR wins in this car until the ruling board of NASCAR decided that the Roadrunner chassis was just too fast and it`s aerodynamics package gave it an unfair advantage on the track. It came `street legal` with a 400bhp big block chrysler `Hemi engine. This engine would propel the car to 190 mph in the quarter-mile right from the dealership. This was the last and fastest Detroit Steel All-American muscle car available to the buying public EVER offered. It was also the very last PURE street/track combination legal classification car available. `Modern` muscle cars are either classified as `street` OR `track` legal.... NOT both, as the Roadrunner was offered. It handles like a heavy Phoenix. It has the chassis strength of a Chomper. With the addition of a HUGE motor capacity, this car might fly if not for the downforce supplied by the extraordinarily large rear wing. It is VERY rare to find one of these beautiful cars. You might not want to risk it ANYWHERE once you do find it. If you do find one, you`ll be pleasantly surprised at it`s armor capacity and bulk available. ==================== JD |
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Marrkos Posted Sep 9, 2010, 10:58 pm |
And reduced to what's relevant to the game.... 
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Deathangels Shadow Posted Sep 9, 2010, 11:25 pm |
Anything written about the Roadrunner must include the fact that its ghost is a big fat liar, whatever you do - don't trust it. | ||||
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Sep 10, 2010, 1:16 am |
Point taken Marrkos... 
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Sep 10, 2010, 1:20 am |
Hmmmm.... While I agree the Roadrunner can get squirrely at speed, do you have any facts to validate your opinion DA?
Instead, I would recommend that a high-level Driver (50+) be used when piloting the car.
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Deathangels Shadow Posted Sep 10, 2010, 1:42 am |
heh. You're letting your love for the real car blind you to the facts, mate.
My driver's a 49, and the ghost lies to me. Others with far better drivers than mine have reported the same. If you take a corner hard, it will not come out of it where it said it would. |
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Fifth Posted Sep 10, 2010, 1:44 am |
Inserted into the Manual. Thanks JD! |
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Sep 10, 2010, 1:47 am |
Well, maybe we should do some intensive testing with custom events and get Sam to tweak the physics model a bit. I'm all for making the RR a nicer more responsive ride!
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Deathangels Shadow Posted Sep 10, 2010, 1:58 am |
That's an idea I would be more than happy to get behind... if we could work out the performance kinks, it would be the killer Muscle. | ||||
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*Bastille* Posted Sep 10, 2010, 5:25 am |
I think all JD mentions about the original car is quite relevant when we talk about how this thing handles. 4000Lbs out of the shop and the motor was rated at 425hp (real test on a Dyno prove it to be about 580bhp for the hemi thats at the flywheel, not the rear wheels) it came with skinny plexiglass tires to keep down insurance costs as was the norm at the time from the big 3, the same reason it was rated at 425hp. Ford and GM conspired against this winning formula by limiting the allowed carbs to a single 4 barrel (they had huge influence over NASCAR), crysler offered a huge 4 barrel and a special intake manifold called the tub to help get a good mixture to all 8 cylinders. All this can be read in the bible - the 426 HEMI book, and other books about 60s and 70s muscle and NASCAR.
This thing was built for speed on huge oval tracks, built to win daytona and talledaga (to beat the ford Torino). Its not built to be nimble. Traditionally the definition of muscle car came from the big motors these babies had (5L+ quite often in access of 7L), and as Urbs mentions these things could lift the front wheels and twist the chassis when running the quarter. Check out some photos of the Little red wagon(this one is funny) or Dick Landys 64 dodge. The Viper (designed by carrol shelby same dude that stuck a 7L in an AC bristol, known as the AC Cobra) was built as a muscle car. Flash! muscle?!? Its a small sports car. (its a Porsche Boxter isn't it? and in no way could be conceived as a Muscle Car) Im not sure about game perceptions, but thats them facts 
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Deathangels Shadow Posted Sep 10, 2010, 6:02 am |
Bastiel - Yeah, several of the cars on the list aren't true Muscle, but at the same time they do fit the role in Darkwind that has come to be called "Muscle." Fast, Agile, with the ability to pack either one big punch or a couple small punches. | ||||
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Sep 10, 2010, 6:17 am |
Too true Bastiel!....
The "Tub" manifold was so named for good reason!.... It would take and drain massive amounts of fuel... While giving the driver ANY amount of speed they desired. (If the tires didn't melt first!) I have to agree on the NASCAR elite's decision to ban the Roadrunner from competition based on the aerodynamic inadequacies of the (then current) modern race cars. That ban of the "unlimited" style of racing until then led to the "restrictor plate" racing we have now. The restrictor plate limits (raises) the height of the carb to the manifold and also limits the size of the bore hole through which the fuel and air flow is drawn. The height of the carb to the manifold retards the response time from the pedal push to engine response and the smaller bore diameter limits the high end rpm that the engine will turn. One version of the Roadrunner was offered with a "Triple-Deuce" intake package..... This had three 2-barrel carbs mounted in-line front to back on a Holley "short stack" intake manifold. The "Triple-Deuce" manifold was 2 inches shorter in vertical height than the standard 4 barrel manifold, giving the car almost instantaneous acceleration. These cars were so squirrely, No insurance company would cover them. Because of this, all "Triple-Deuce-Holly" Roadrunners were either Garaged or run exclusively on the oval or quarter-mile tracks. JD |
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*Bastille* Posted Sep 10, 2010, 6:34 am |
Yeh fair call. A 3.2L or even 4L Camaro and Challenger are not muscle cars either by true definition (just standard small sedans), I certainly think of them as muscle as far as the game is concerned.
Did you check the Little Red Wagon Wheel stands!?!
The DMC DeLorean or McFly (another sports car) had a 2.85L v6. Here they fit a 7L or there abouts, but with the original they did play around with a Twin Turbo Model. But all this can probably be saved for General discussion. Edit: was posting this at the same time as your post above JD. I would so love a Superbird. All this stuff has relation to how our cars perform here in game, although not to the letter, there pros and cons give balance to fit the bill. |
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*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted Sep 10, 2010, 7:17 am |
Now, THIS is a montage of TRUE Muscle cars, good music too.
PURE Vehicular Muscle! You might recognize some of the vehicles portrayed here... Vehicle names will be with-held pending addition to the game.... For now. [editors note] expand video to full screen for the FULL goose-bump effect! |
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*Wolfsbane* Posted Sep 10, 2010, 8:22 am |
They're available. A snip at a mere $135,000. |
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Deathangels Shadow Posted Sep 10, 2010, 9:15 am |
Considering what they are, that's a pretty good price. |
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*Bastille* Posted Sep 10, 2010, 9:30 am |
Thats a great price! Seen 70 hemi cudas go for 350K at the indy auctions. | ||||
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*Bastille* Posted Sep 10, 2010, 9:37 am |
Not sure if you have done the Flail yet
Some points of mention Sturdy, can handle some recoil, lots of armor, big motor and quick when it does, Handles ok although the weight means it understeers a bit. I think it makes a great chaser. |
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*goat starer* Posted Sep 10, 2010, 10:08 am |
as Zaphod Beeblebrox once said... "Looks like a fish. Moves like a fish. Steers like a cow" |
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*Bastille* Posted Sep 10, 2010, 10:33 am |
Oh what would he know! First sign of pirates and he'd be blinded by the fright.
Ok, so maybe my comment was slightly under steered ... ahhhh, Understated
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johnny go Posted Sep 10, 2010, 10:40 am |
all my crew are equipped with Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses
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*Rev. V* Posted Sep 10, 2010, 12:22 pm |
My thoughts on Phos-
You can't really get much better from an in-game muscle car than the Pho, until you have a bunch of money to spend. With a 4L or even better, a 3.2L V8, you get some pretty decent acceleration, and you can pack the armour on to the point where suicidal runs can be quite survivable. Pho's are GREAT for chasing down fleeing trader/cargo vehicles. 21 max armour for a side is pretty good for a muscle car, so take advantage of it. F21 L19 R19 Rr15 T5 B5 will let you charge into a lot of situations, hit & git. Pho's are not really meant for line fighting, but if you don't have the room to move about, they will do in a pinch if you have the front armour maxxed. But, it's best to avoid situations like that whenever possible, as speed is certainly your greatest asset when using any muscle chassis. As a "lighter" chassis, beware of rockets, they will flip a Pho over quite easily, especially if you are hit while turning. I'm running most of my Pho's with the armour allocations stated above, with a 3.2LV8, MMG/MML, one reload for each, a driver and a gunner. |