*sam* Posted Aug 11, 2010, 12:58 am	I have been working on improved race AI over the last few months, specifically they're now using an evolutionary approach to refining their racing lines, and are starting to treat different chassis differently rather than all the same. The intention is to make races more fun - I'd still see humans winning the leagues, but if the NPCs put up a good race too that can only be an improvement. Only a few specific chassis/track combinations are currently active with this, so if you want to try it out I'd suggest a symph on the SS dirt racing track. We just ran our first race with the new AI.. event 111616 if you want to view the replay. It certainly seemed quite different, with humans and NPCs mixing it up for the entire 2 laps.
*Dark Tempest* Posted Aug 11, 2010, 1:28 am	Is it still going to be possible for new players to start winning races against the NPC's within 5-10 races and a little coaching from older players? An AI that can challenge Lord Foul in a Turin will not present a fun opportunity to play Darkwind to a new player.
Deathangels Shadow Posted Aug 11, 2010, 1:33 am	I think Dark Tempest brings up a very important factor... racing may be something that we all do, but at the end of the day it's the part of the game that's intended for the new players. If their introduction to the game is getting completely annihilated every time they run a race, they're far less likely to stick around. I know I wouldn't have stuck around if I didn't start winning the occasional race.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 11, 2010, 1:48 am	I don't think an improvement in the AI will make a huge difference. Perhaps it will even teach new players the "correct" racing line quicker than the old AI did (or didn't...)
Deathangels Shadow Posted Aug 11, 2010, 2:26 am	I think you overestimate the average racing skills of a n00b... ... for that matter, I think you overestimate the racing skills I actively have.
Groove Champion Posted Aug 11, 2010, 3:48 am	But if the NPC is successfully navigating the track, all you need to do is try for the same line. I'm not saying you'll get it right at first (no different from what we have now) but at least you'll have a proper example (VERY different from what we have now).
d0dger Posted Aug 11, 2010, 3:56 am	Hell I couldn't win the races starting out as a noob, so I started doing arena combats and aced those from the get go. I think we'll be ok.
*Urban Decay* Posted Aug 11, 2010, 4:06 am	AI improvement doesn't need to be to the point where they are always on a great line, just getting them to the point where they aren't on a suicide path on some of the more difficult tracks like the bone would be an insane improvement. Sometimes it seems like the NPC's honestly have no idea how to navigate, and assume an obstacle or car is no where near in thier path. Which might mostly be the case... If they just had a way to react to the changes of the cars around them, races would be much more enjoyable. The problem being that such a level of AI would prove difficult to program, even to the level of having them simply adjust to avoid collision, since that could wind up causing larger pileups as they all repel each other in a random field of uncontrollable sliding.
Lord Foul Posted Aug 11, 2010, 4:07 am	I'm testing this out right now with a racer character and with a character that has no driving skill. Results will be posted shortly.
Lord Foul Posted Aug 11, 2010, 5:01 am	Here's the results with racing symph on SS:dirt, 3 laps. Racer: Lap 1 Me:37.9 NPC:40.37 Lap 2 Me:36.57(beats my current record) NPC:40.87 Lap 3 Me:36.57(yep same time) NPC:39.53(Very good for NPC) The longer the race the better the AI does/did. As usual if they are clumped up they get in each others way. Once alone they can match me pretty well with just 3 seconds from my record. Close, but still easy with a skilled racer and knowing the track. ________________________________________________ Now for the fun race. Same as first race, but with a character that has no driving skill to simulate a new player. Simply plowed through like I did not know the track/car. Lap 1 Me:37.96(started in second row) NPC:41.49 (First lap show NPCs get in each others way) Lap 2 Me:41.09(took corner to fast after first lap, lost some speed) NPC:39.05 (very good for NPC) Lap 3 Me:48.96(I rolled the car in the beginning of 3rd lap) NPC:40.93 A lot tougher with a no skilled driver with ghost lying a lot. The AI does real well alone and can match a skilled player in moves, but not in speed control in some cornering and the NPCs charge the line, which causes them to overcompensate to recover and that usually causes crashes with other players/npcs. In all honesty a new player would prob not win this specfic type of race with symph/SS dirt, but it would be a good learning experience. While the AI is still not as good as a skilled racer, they do present a challenge to the vet, because one mistake will quickly put even a vet in second place.
ninjamonkey73 Posted Aug 11, 2010, 5:44 am	When I was a non-subscriber, I spent almost all of my DW time racing. I think I came in third in my very first race, then by the end of the day I was winning any race that didn't put me in the hospital LOL. That's me with no prior DW experience... then again I'm an old-school Car Wars player, an excellent RL driver, and I've played my fair share of racing games on consoles and whatnot. I felt like I was armed with a lot of knowledge. Maybe not all DW players have that wealth of personal experience to draw from... then again, maybe they do! I guess my main thought here is, if the races get "harder" to win, the prize pools ought to increase! Non-subscribers essentially need to win two or three races just to be able to rent an Antagonist and go Scouting... and they can't sell their loot! Racing is their financial backbone.
Karz Master Posted Aug 11, 2010, 8:50 am	Quote: While the AI is still not as good as a skilled racer, they do present a challenge to the vet, because one mistake will quickly put even a vet in second place. ^^That's what you think Foul, but I haven't raced the new AI yet
*Burden* Posted Aug 11, 2010, 9:06 am	What happens once the AI has perfect lines and is pretty much impossible to beat?
*sam* Posted Aug 11, 2010, 9:12 am	Thanks for the feedback. Of course, I don't want to make the game too hard. It will be easy to slow them down a bit if it seems necessary..
Karz Master Posted Aug 11, 2010, 9:13 am	*Burden* said: What happens once the AI has perfect lines and is pretty much impossible to beat? We end up with the same situation as the Darkwind beta.
Valiance Posted Aug 11, 2010, 9:33 am	i have to say that I think Races should be tuned for new players, not vets. I didn't win my first race for weeks. I always played Deathraces cos I could shoot my way out of being a crap driver. Even know, I'm not a very good racer. I feel that this is raising the challenge for a limited number of racing vets, not for new players. Perhaps make it only apply to Pro events, or Pro and league events. It would make sense for them to be harder?
*sam* Posted Aug 11, 2010, 9:38 am	ninjamonkey73 said: When I was a non-subscriber, I spent almost all of my DW time racing.  I think I came in third in my very first race, then by the end of the day I was winning any race that didn't put me in the hospital LOL. That's me with no prior DW experience... then again I'm an old-school Car Wars player, an excellent RL driver, and I've played my fair share of racing games on consoles and whatnot.  I felt like I was armed with a lot of knowledge.  Maybe not all DW players have that wealth of personal experience to draw from... then again, maybe they do! I guess my main thought here is, if the races get "harder" to win, the prize pools ought to increase!  Non-subscribers essentially need to win two or three races just to be able to rent an Antagonist and go Scouting... and they can't sell their loot!  Racing is their financial backbone. Arena combats will still be unchanged.. and they're probably a better source of income for many new players than races anyway?
*sam* Posted Aug 11, 2010, 9:42 am	*Burden* said: What happens once the AI has perfect lines and is pretty much impossible to beat? That won't happen, I can assure you. I ran some detailed experiments back in June, and the new approach will close the gap quite a bit but still won't make them race like the best payers. I'll keep an eye on it. Maybe it would be good to slow down *some* of the NPCs, if it's looking too hard for newer players, so that they space out more and present a challenge for everyone without making it really hard not to come in last if you're a new player.
GrowlingBadger Posted Aug 11, 2010, 10:59 am	Dunno if I just been lucky but I have been able to compete (as a noob) in races, sufficiently to progress through the mission"racing for the mob". It wasn't easy but I won the races, shows me that it is spot on. Of course deathraces are easier cos you can bat stuff.
Crazy AL Posted Aug 11, 2010, 3:52 pm	*sam* said: *Burden* said: What happens once the AI has perfect lines and is pretty much impossible to beat? That won't happen, I can assure you. I ran some detailed experiments back in June, and the new approach will close the gap quite a bit but still won't make them race like the best payers. I'll keep an eye on it. Maybe it would be good to slow down *some* of the NPCs, if it's looking too hard for newer players, so that they space out more and present a challenge for everyone without making it really hard not to come in last if you're a new player. As a non-racer, that is I've probably done less than 2 dozen actual strict races in my entire career in DW, this is a very good idea regardless of the level of skill of the NPCs. Even races where everyone is top tier skilled, they don't stay bunched up together for the whole race due to caution and strategy. My biggest beef was the idiocy of the NPCs and their driving lines. I didn't do many races but the majority of them involved a driver in front of me, crashing into a stopped, crashing or slowed car and wrecking my line. I think this would make for a much more interesting and realistic race and is a great idea, Sam.
BOTNJ Posted Aug 11, 2010, 5:50 pm	*sam* said: Arena combats will still be unchanged.. and they're probably a better source of income for many new players than races anyway? Not always. I raced predominantly in my non-sub weeks and a LOT afterwards. I merged into DRs early on, but still aim to win those without shooting at all. I can count the number of arena combats I have been involved in on one hand... literally (maybe two, but seriously, it IS that little [few?]) I feel I did ok as a n00b, and with some fairly reckless driving was still able to win more than I lost. While my initial argument here is that I made all my cashola in races as a n00b, I am also in favour of the AI-increase... it SHOULD be harder to win races. the AI SHOULD be tougher... maybe more so in Pro races and league races (even more so in more prestigious leagues?). Maybe a wider range of speeds (as mentioned earlier, I believe) between gangs, makin DPU a perrenial back-of-the-packer, and say, Dirge a perrenial front-runner type of thing? New players could gauge how well they're doing as follows: 'yep, consistently beating Sarsfield Grenadiers, and more often than not takin down Porcias!' Jus some thought-ramblings
*goat starer* Posted Aug 11, 2010, 7:26 pm	*Dark Tempest* said: An AI that can challenge Lord Foul in a Turin will not present a fun opportunity to play Darkwind to a new player. by "the AI that can challenge Lord Foul in a Turin" I assume you mean this...
Deathangels Shadow Posted Aug 11, 2010, 7:45 pm	That's one scary lookin' AI there... just be thankful it doesn't have the RAM expander.
Djihani Posted Aug 11, 2010, 9:26 pm	yeah good AI is good thing, SAM can always crank the difficulty down if it gets too insane. Might wanna invent some kinda ranking or handicap system, adjusting AI difficulty depending on the players involved. Just record peoples best times (already done?) and make the AI compete with the best player record involved. then you could just force the AI to make mistakes/slow down depending on the player handicaps involved. I personally never ever race unless it's something crazy cool involving certain death and lots of other players. Pro races I do sometimes just to look at my pretty cars. Then I go scout for more repairs money.
Deathangels Shadow Posted Aug 11, 2010, 10:40 pm	Or perhaps a sliding scale based on where the players are currently placed... I don't know how easy it would be to scale your AI code, but a realtime response to the actively demonstrated capabilities of the players might end up working out real well if possible.
Karz Master Posted Aug 12, 2010, 2:33 am	Just a thought: maybe Sam (Supreme Automated Machine) is the AI for Darkwind.......
Procyon Posted Aug 12, 2010, 2:44 am	If you do end up handicapping some cars, Sam, might I suggest that the cars you slow down be effected at a rate proportional to their gang fame or similar? This would make an interesting cross-event dynamic in that you could target specific AI in scouts in order to affect their ability to compete in upcoming events.
*goat starer* Posted Aug 12, 2010, 12:05 pm	Karz Master said: Just a thought: maybe Sam (Supreme Automated Machine) is the AI for Darkwind....... have you seen sam play? he is rubbish! .. . . on second thoughts you may have a point!
*sam* Posted Aug 12, 2010, 12:06 pm	I may be tactically naive in combat, but I'm quite good at racing *sniff
Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 16, 2010, 11:35 pm	lol aww poor sam.  He is a good racer... jeez. You guys should check out Sam's League combat, he did the best HRR ambush I've seen yet.
Fifth Posted Aug 18, 2010, 5:42 am	*sam* said: I may be tactically naive in combat, but I'm quite good at racing *sniff You're not that bad, you need more scouting experience, I think. ...Much much much more experience... Also, little off-topic, but in a recent scout, we were almost to loot when we were attacked by Mutant Rats, is that a part of this update?
*Bastille* Posted Aug 18, 2010, 5:47 am	I think it has something to do with enjoyment over success, and a time consuming need to make sure we have little to complain about. My Milk is cold damnit! I've only had a couple of races so far since this change, and I did poorly both times so couldn't really say how good the AI was, it did seem a lot harder to make up ground though. Is it just Symphs at SS dirt that has been changed so far, or do other combinations of car and track now show this change?
*sam* Posted Aug 18, 2010, 12:53 pm	Bastiel said: Is it just Symphs at SS dirt that has been changed so far, or do other combinations of car and track now show this change? Some of the others are done also, they're training all the time right now, and systematically working thru all combinations (starting with the most common). Currently 13 are done.
*Tinker* Posted Aug 18, 2010, 12:58 pm	haha would be funny if the AI could hold some record for a little bit
Dreamthief Posted Aug 18, 2010, 1:46 pm	Ahhhh now you mention it. Maybe we need to wipe clean all those records and start afresh...seeing as they were all achieved against gimped AI?
Joel Autobaun Posted Aug 18, 2010, 4:27 pm	Actually it will be easier to break records because or more slipstream. I would support a records do-over IF custom records could only be broken in a race or deathrace after a records wipe....not custom events.