*sam* Posted May 6, 2010, 1:34 pm	Some more character history logs.. injuries Extra chance of a vehicle catching fire when it has ammo or fuel cargo damaged Explosions are more violent if a vehicle has a lot of fuel in its fueltank, in cargo, or has a lot of explosive ammunition. Exploding vehicles now create puddles of flaming oil, depending on how much fuel they have onboard (cargo+fueltank) NPCs now look further for cliff-edges to avoid on certain maps.. specifically, Gates of Sarsfield and The Pits
SZDaddio Posted May 6, 2010, 1:50 pm	As far as the cliff edges.....does that mean they will be more cautious earlier, and slow down?
FireFly Posted May 6, 2010, 2:55 pm	I... Think this dosent work as intended sam... S206681 3 times I get cars engulfed in infernos, 2 of those goes on to "Car is about to blow..." message, and all of those times, the fire was put out right after said explosion warning appeared... is this just crappy luck on my part?
*sam* Posted May 6, 2010, 3:02 pm	FireFly said: I... Think this dosent work as intended sam... S206681    3 times I get cars engulfed in infernos, 2 of those goes on to "Car is about to blow..." message, and all of those times, the fire was put out right after said explosion warning appeared... is this just crappy luck on my part? Yeah, they can go out anytime. Sometimes even when they're burning a lot..
*sam* Posted May 6, 2010, 3:05 pm	I assume he was talking about enemy cars?
*Lugal* Posted May 6, 2010, 3:12 pm	Everything is perspective. Good looking changes, Sam.
FireFly Posted May 6, 2010, 3:23 pm	*sam* said: FireFly said: I... Think this dosent work as intended sam... S206681    3 times I get cars engulfed in infernos, 2 of those goes on to "Car is about to blow..." message, and all of those times, the fire was put out right after said explosion warning appeared... is this just crappy luck on my part? Yeah, they can go out anytime. Sometimes even when they're burning a lot.. Just saying, once it reaches "Explosion may be imminent", well, the explosion should be pretty much imminent... I think it would be a lot better if the fire lessened over time, I mean, come on, a blazing inferno doesn't just go *Poof*
*goat starer* Posted May 6, 2010, 3:38 pm	FireFly said: *sam* said: FireFly said: I... Think this dosent work as intended sam... S206681    3 times I get cars engulfed in infernos, 2 of those goes on to "Car is about to blow..." message, and all of those times, the fire was put out right after said explosion warning appeared... is this just crappy luck on my part? Yeah, they can go out anytime. Sometimes even when they're burning a lot.. Just saying, once it reaches "Explosion may be imminent", well, the explosion should be pretty much imminent... I think it would be a lot better if the fire lessened over time, I mean, come on, a blazing inferno doesn't just go *Poof*  perhaps you dont understand what the word 'may' means fires behave in very unpredictable ways...using up fuel or oxygen... people put stuff out...
Serephe Posted May 6, 2010, 3:40 pm	Ideally, vehicles catching fire should start off with a fairly small fire, which would increase with intensity depending on what the vehicle contains. Flamethrowers would be a bit of an exception though, since they kind of SHOOT FIRE. But really, there needs to be a way to set people to the task of (attempting) putting the fire out -- and fire resistant suits for peds -- else you'll just have unstoppable fires and lots of explosions. Which I'm not against. Basically one of the main reasons for pushing for the changes in fire/explosion was to have it "make sense" to the player. No arbitrarily random explosions, and no hey the raging inferno of death suddenly disappeared for no reason other than random chance.
Psygo Posted May 6, 2010, 3:41 pm	take a look at S99025, not much happens before turn 35 but after that... no explosion, the estate filled with 10 HFOJ mags
*goat starer* Posted May 6, 2010, 3:54 pm	in war some things go boom... HMS Hood... instant KABLOOOIE some things burn for hours and never explode ... The Bismark... hours of floating and burning There is no good modelling of this except keeping it pretty random. Sometimes your car should just go bang when a shot hits your magazine... sometimes not. the only bit it needs is the assignment of characters to fight the fire and use of bulk to store extinguishers. This would reduce but not remove the randomness and chaos that is fires.
FireFly Posted May 6, 2010, 3:56 pm	goat starer said: in war some things go boom... HMS Hood... instant KABLOOOIE some things burn for hours and never explode ... The Bismark... hours of floating and burning There is no good modelling of this except keeping it pretty random. the only bit it needs is the assignment of characters to fight the fire and use of bulk to store extinguishers. This would reduce but not remove the randomness and chaos that is fires. Then maybe the car in a firey inferno should just burn for the rest of the match, like you described there, but the fire shouldn't just "Go away" when it's that intense. And yes... extinguishers are a given...
*sam* Posted May 6, 2010, 4:21 pm	Yeah I know, I know... it's actually the way I implemented the flame/smoke particle emitters that forced me down this road. Currently the server tells the clients "ok, start up a flame emitter at this point on the vehicle and burn it for 4 turns" .. this needs to be changed so that the server can give updates.. "hey, emitter #6 needs to be extended for another turn" etc..
FireFly Posted May 6, 2010, 4:27 pm	Then why are you sitting here telling me about it, get to work Honestly thou, I guess that is more complicated to change than I think it is...
*sam* Posted May 6, 2010, 4:30 pm	Often things you think are simple actually aren't, yeah. This one isn't too bad though, really.. looking into it now.
FireFly Posted May 6, 2010, 4:36 pm	^^ But can you just clarify how the fires will work when it comes to "Blazing inferno", what is the chance of the fire dying at that point? I know we don't want everyone blowing up everywhere, but even if there is no explosion, a raging inferno burns for a good while without anything around to stop it. Also, something I've been wondering for a while... does gunfire affect a fire, because they seem to die earlier when I shoot out the engines...?
*sam* Posted May 6, 2010, 4:39 pm	FireFly said: But can you just clarify how the fires will work when it comes to "Blazing inferno", what is the chance of the fire dying at that point? I'm changing it so an explosion will only happen when a car is already burning moderately or worse, and will only go out when its burning mildly. So in answer to your question, the chance will be (at the next patch) zero. FireFly said: Also, something I've been wondering for a while... does gunfire affect a fire, because they seem to die earlier when I shoot out the engines...? It can do, yes.. insofar as it might cause a secondary fire which adds to the strength of the existing fire.
FireFly Posted May 6, 2010, 4:42 pm	*sam* said: FireFly said: But can you just clarify how the fires will work when it comes to "Blazing inferno", what is the chance of the fire dying at that point? I'm changing it so an explosion will only happen when a car is already burning moderately or worse, and will only go out when its burning mildly. So in answer to your question, the chance will be (at the next patch) zero. In other words, if you see the message representing a medium/heavy fire, that car is pretty much toast unless you finish the event quickly? *sam* said: FireFly said: Also, something I've been wondering for a while... does gunfire affect a fire, because they seem to die earlier when I shoot out the engines...? It can do, yes.. insofar as it might cause a secondary fire which adds to the strength of the existing fire. As a side note, an easy way to do the firefighting thing would be to simply put the pedestrian outside the car, right click the car, and have a "Fight Fire" option turn up, its not complicated, but should do the job... Without extinguishers or anything like that thou, it would be pretty futile
Serephe Posted May 6, 2010, 4:53 pm	I'd just glare at the fire until it put itself out.
LoSboccacc Posted May 6, 2010, 4:56 pm	the pits, less than stellar startup for the ai: S206712
theHumungous Posted May 6, 2010, 5:09 pm	What would be horribly cool (horribly because of all the random death) would be ammo cooking off in a very bad fire. Random shots going off in different directions. The burning car suddenly becomes a claymore.
Serephe Posted May 6, 2010, 5:09 pm	AI really struggles with maps like that. It seems we either have to put up with them driving into the oil and surrendering, or being overly cautious and being easy to escape from. The problem: It's not a real player controlling them. AI will not be able to compete. Solution: Wait 50 years for AI to surpass us and start the robot revolution. Or make the entire game PvP based. Yeah, good idea me! NOBODY could have anything bad to say about that!
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted May 6, 2010, 8:46 pm	Taken from another post I made and moved to this thread: Quote: Just my 2 pennies worth here....  Tire/Brake fires are easy to extinguish IF they are dealt with soon enough. If they are left to smoulder, they can be almost impossible to extinguish because of the proximity to more flammable sources of ignition, ie: brake fluid. Rubber is also VERY hard to put out if you have enough of it on fire. Internal/cargo fires are relatively easy to deal with because upholstery is intended to be hard to light up. (For the safety of the occupants.) The cargo carried also has a lot to do with the combustion of the upholstery, seats and such.. Gun rounds need to have a quite high temperature before they cook off. Flamethrower ammo on the other hand will light up the interior, just as fast as if the nozzle of the weapon were pointed into the car if the flames get to the ammo after a short time. Engine compartment fires are highly dangerous because the fire is in close proximity to fuel, brake fluid, batteries, and rubber. ALL highly combustible and explosive within a VERY short time. You cannot open the hood because this gives a release to the flames and fans the fire which sucks air from underneath. You cannot use an extinguisher from underneath with the hood closed because the fire will be on top of the engine. (In fact, NASCAR fire crews use a nitrogen based extinguisher when they fight engine fires. The nitrogen replaces the oxygen in the enclosed space and removes one of the three requirements for fire to exist.) Oxygen, fuel and heat are all that is required to make fire and adding more of any one of those three will keep the fire self-sustaining. ============================ OK, JD is off the teachers blackboard!
*goat starer* Posted May 6, 2010, 9:08 pm	i love the idea that JDs cars have upholstery... I imagine its all a nice faux suede
*JD_Basher* jd.basher@charter.net Posted May 6, 2010, 9:21 pm	LMAO!.... Tanned Radfrog Naugahyde.
metrocube Posted May 6, 2010, 9:38 pm	Longo said: Hate to break it to you all, but cars on fire generally do not explode in a huge ball of flames. They generally just burn, and burn. And gun ammo wont increase an explosion, but it will fire off...  generally no, but they do if the fuel tank boils. And this being a computer game, we love to see them fuel tanks boil! Remember from the other thread the videos of what happens when fuel boils in a vessel, becomes pressurized and the heat-weakened containment vessel ruptures.
Serephe Posted May 6, 2010, 10:23 pm	How much of your experience involves civilian vehicles jury rigged up to contain military hardware and carry enough ammunition(including explosives!) to level a small country?
*Longo* Posted May 6, 2010, 10:54 pm	Serephe said: How much of your experience involves civilian vehicles jury rigged up to contain military hardware and carry enough ammunition(including explosives!) to level a small country?  What do you know on the topic Sere? Please Explain.
Serephe Posted May 6, 2010, 11:40 pm	What does that matter? I'm not the one claiming 16 years of irrelevant experience. Regardless, while the average civilian vehicle will simply burn to a shell, or in the case of those junky "supercars" melt into a puddle, vehicles containing large amounts of flammable or explosive material tend to go... boom. The average vehicle in Evan carries enough ammunition and/or fuel that it'd quite easily cause a nice pretty explosion. Unless you'd like to explain why the fuel, rockets and other ammunition wouldn't explode, with all that experience of yours.
*goat starer* Posted May 6, 2010, 11:52 pm	i once watched a vw camper van explode in a service station... it was quite a big explosion
Serephe Posted May 6, 2010, 11:56 pm	Those old VW vans are deathtraps though... don't they have magnesium engine blocks or some crap? What the hell were they thinking...
*Longo* Posted May 7, 2010, 1:40 am	I deleted all of my posts on this topic. I dont have the time, or the patience to argue with Sere over such an insignificant thing. Ill just end it there.
*goat starer* Posted May 7, 2010, 7:40 am	Longo said: Ill just end it here that seems a little excessive.... it was only a little argument and you have so much to live for!
Karz Master Posted May 7, 2010, 8:53 am	Nice, I like the latest patch
*Bastille* Posted May 7, 2010, 10:11 am	Yeh, very nice! Ive seen the Ammunition hit comment just waiting on the "Bullets ricochet around the cabin hitting _____ in the head, caving in his skull." comment :P
*sam* Posted May 7, 2010, 10:35 am	Yeah, the specific message about ammo and fuel cans being hit are because whenever they get hit there is a chance of a fire starting.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted May 7, 2010, 11:36 am	SO NPC that get these ammo hit messages ( which they do ) actually have ammo and reload ? yeh just following up on that other thread LOL
*sam* Posted May 7, 2010, 11:55 am	Yes. I know people have claimed that NPCs don't reload, but actually they do. Perhaps their decision about when to reload is a bit iffy, but they definitely do it and draw it from actual ammo loaded into the car.
LoSboccacc Posted May 7, 2010, 12:04 pm	lol. I never, ever seen them reload once in three month. But it's very possible that they had their munition hit, and the generic cargo hit message was hiding the fact that they reload were busted - by the time a clip has gone NPC -or- players usually have already a breached side.
Karz Master Posted May 7, 2010, 12:07 pm	I love that message "XXXXX's car is burning merrily". Sam's sick twisted sense of humour
Lord Foul Posted May 10, 2010, 3:27 am	Just an FYI, I've seen a lot more fires since the patch went live, but zero explosions as well. Before the patch there were less fires but more explosions. I would normally see a car blow up every other scout, now there have been none. Like others I've seen cars burn for several turns and say things like "Car may explode at any moment" and then the fire goes out. This includes cars with exploding ammo like rockets. Great addition, but it does seem odd I can have 3 or 4 cars burning at the same time for several turns, but none go boom.
*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted May 10, 2010, 5:00 am	I saw a fire that turned into explosion the other day. The pirate didn't get far enough away from the car and lost his leg below the knee from the explosion.
FireFly Posted May 10, 2010, 8:43 pm	I've had 3 cars explode today, none of the 3 actually produced ant force, there was the explosion effect, but the surroundings were completely unaffected. S208095 Is it perhaps because all of the fuel and ammo burned up before the actual explosion happened, just saying
*sam* Posted May 10, 2010, 9:20 pm	Got it, thanks for letting me know. I forgot to set the splash physics effects on the new explosion.
Fealty Lost Posted May 11, 2010, 3:25 am	Ha! I knew it! NPC's reload! I like to keep track of rounds fired, so I know when to engage...tried that this past week...turned around...land 3 vehicles I thought were out of ammo opened up on me!! Cheeky bazzturds! Luckily, I had 4 x FOJs and made a nice patch through a small canyon. BBQ'd mutants, anyone? I can attest to the new nastiness of Flaming Oil in any of its forms. I've actually red-deaded 4 bad guys over the weekend. I can also attest to its affectiveness if MISlayed anywhere near my own vehicles...which, of course, catch right on fire... :-( Have also seen ammo hits that catch fire, but seem to only burn for a single turn before extinguishing. I've seen that happen twice now. Great adds, Sam. Can't wait to get back to it!
FireFly Posted May 12, 2010, 6:55 am	Is it just imagination (No its not, its a figure of speech) but has fire become more deadly with the recent patch? I've seen an npc car catch fire, go into an inferno, and all the crew got killed in about 10 turns of fire, + that the car was completely wrecked. Good thing that, just what one would expect from a blazing inferno
*Tinker* Posted May 12, 2010, 7:23 am	yeah love the new explosions too very scary