*sam* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 11:58 am	Due to several high-profile deathraces being won by the use of pedestrian gunners, the Evan Autoduel Association (EAA) have outlawed the use of pedestrian weapons in deathraces. Hand guns will be removed from your characters at the start of the deathrace, to be returned to you at the end.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 4, 2010, 12:21 pm	There goes the neighbourhood
*goat starer* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 1:15 pm	this is a terrible terrible decision.. the decision to stop driving backwards and shooting at cars that have lapped you was terrible.. this is VERY terrible
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 4, 2010, 1:25 pm	What about custom events, where the decision to join with the understanding that hand gunners and other obstacles may be present and anybody joining agrees and understands this. Be a shame to see the Faster Pussycat brand lose its ' What The Hell' Factor
*jimmylogan* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 1:49 pm	I like Latte's idea... How hard to code an extra option for custom only events?
*sam* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 1:53 pm	goat - unavoidable, I'm afraid. The concept of deathracing is being destroyed by high-skill ped gunners. The EAA can't allow this to continue as its eating into their profits. grog/latte/JL - good idea, yes. I'll add an option to allow ped weapons initially, and will probably add the other items as additional options (it's better to allow you to pick which restrictions to over-ride, rather than to accept all or nothing). edit: ok, ped weapon option in custom deathraces now available. I'll edit the option in your FPC event, goat..
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 4, 2010, 2:23 pm	Thanks Sam, and yes the Button option for 'Cutoms' would be an a good idea
*Ninesticks* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 2:35 pm	Well that's a shame I enjoyed being able to use ped weapons when all else had failed. If highly skilled peds are a problem let's just encourage deathracers to kill the highly skilled peds.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 4, 2010, 2:45 pm	Griefer
ISHOULDCOCO Posted Jan 4, 2010, 3:15 pm	DW is Jeopardyless I think the best way to catalyse sentiment is to allow most things. DW is not a nanny state Camps have no meaning because there is no threat The management is not a sliding scale between what players want and need BUT between player dilemma and choice COCO
*goat starer* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 3:22 pm	*sam* said: goat - unavoidable, I'm afraid. The concept of deathracing is being destroyed by high-skill ped gunners. The EAA can't allow this to continue as its eating into their profits.  Sam... thanks for the change but.... can we not have a vote on this? lets face it... the deathracers are in cars with bloody great guns on them. if they choose to they can quickly ruin anyones handgunners. people need to adapt their tactics to deal with the threat not change the rules. EDIT... thinking about it this seems to me to be a perfect test of the role playing in this game.. you have a death racer choosing to expose their gunners in this way its time the deathrace community dealt with it themselves. I'm really not in favour of making the rules fit the behaviour of a player
*Longo* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 4:17 pm	Yea, this is terrible. Id just run em over...
Marrkos Posted Jan 4, 2010, 5:11 pm	Would it not be better to close the loopholes that allow these 'high profile incidents' to occur, rather than removing ped weapons completely? Loophole 1: Engine shutoff/power decrease does not kick in before starting line/on first lap/before first checkpoint. Loophole 2: Inability to shoot cars too far ahead does not kick in on first lap. Let's be honest, this isn't about players using their ped weapons 'down on the track' during a race to commandeer a working vehicle, or as a substitute to a destroyed vehicular weapon. This is about Joel using the two loopholes above to drive to a position of high ground/safety and shoot targets of opportunity. I say it's a position of 'safety' because by the time the other human players realize what's happening they have already passed the various checks that will prevent them from getting to a position where they can engage him, i.e. they can't target him because they are too far ahead, or they can't ram him because their engine has been disabled by the 'no driving backwards' rule.
*goat starer* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 5:29 pm	Marrkos said: Would it not be better to close the loopholes that allow these 'high profile incidents' to occur, rather than removing ped weapons completely? Loophole 1:  Engine shutoff/power decrease does not kick in before starting line/on first lap/before first checkpoint. Loophole 2:  Inability to shoot cars too far ahead does not kick in on first lap. Let's be honest, this isn't about players using their ped weapons 'down on the track' during a race to commandeer a working vehicle, or as a substitute to a destroyed vehicular weapon. This is about Joel using the two loopholes above to drive to a position of high ground/safety and shoot targets of opportunity. I say it's a position of 'safety' because by the time the other human players realize what's happening they have already passed the various checks that will prevent them from getting to a position where they can engage him, i.e. they can't target him because they are too far ahead, or they can't ram him because their engine has been disabled by the 'no driving backwards' rule. Markkos... that is a beautiful set of reasons to remove the engine cut off and targetting restrictions... they were never sensible, realistic or desirable.. it is a death race after all. It SHOULD have underhand tactics. In all the great movies, cartoons etc people lie, cheat, double deal... but somehow this is seen as a bad thing rather than as a really funky part of the DW experience. Goddam it it SHOULD have Dick Dastardly painting tunnels on walls!
*sam* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 5:30 pm	In theory goat, yes. I agree absolutely. In practice, there are tactics that are too easy to win with and that ruin the event too often -- so I have no choice but to stop them.
*goat starer* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 5:37 pm	*sam* said: In theory goat, yes. I agree absolutely. In practice, there are tactics that are too easy to win with and that ruin the event too often -- so I have no choice but to stop them. well i come back to my earlier point... if you want to prevent dastardly tactics persuade penelope pitstop, peter perfect, the anthill mob, them dudes in the creepy coupe, baron wassname etc to deal with it... don't change the rules of the game. If there are no loopholes there is no creativity and the game bacomes a slog to the line. The thing that ruined deathraces for me was the engine cut of and weapons stuff... I have hardly done one since... because when you are miles behind on a 2 lap race you NEED the option to turn round and blow away the leaders. The unpredictabilty was what made deathracing fun. And the way you REALLY deal with it is to give deathracing cars reloads so the person who turns round is not the only guy with working guns on lap 2. PS. I'm pretty sure I'm mnot the only person who thinks this. I know hula said something similar before he disappeared.... i would be interested to know how many people actually want the existing deathrace restrictions let alone new ones so i am making a poll
*sam* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 6:25 pm	goat starer said: well i come back to my earlier point... if you want to prevent dastardly tactics persuade penelope pitstop, peter perfect, the anthill mob, them dudes in the creepy coupe, baron wassname etc to deal with it... don't change the rules of the game. That's not generally feasible. Again, I'd agree in theory, but in practice it's not gonna work. You can't expect the players to self-police a disageeable tactic that can guarantee someone victory. goat starer said: If there are no loopholes there is no creativity and the game bacomes a slog to the line. I agree that closing gameplay options is to be avoided where possible. But at some point a decision needs to be made as to which is the lesser evil - closing an option or leaving it in. I'm not sure if 'loopholes' are something I'd like to specifically leave in, but yes creative gameplay is to be encouraged and the fewer artificial rules we add the better in that regard. goat starer said: The thing that ruined deathraces for me was the engine cut of and weapons stuff... I have hardly done one since... because when you are miles behind on a 2 lap race you NEED the option to turn round and blow away the leaders. The unpredictabilty was what made deathracing fun. More people were having their deathraces ruined before the engine/weapons rules. Again, lesser of two evils.. goat starer said: And the way you REALLY deal with it is to give deathracing cars reloads so the person who turns round is not the only guy with working guns on lap 2. Easily done, but it wouldn't make a major change to the situation. goat starer said: PS. I'm pretty sure I'm mnot the only person who thinks this. I know hula said something similar before he disappeared.... i would be interested to know how many people actually want the existing deathrace restrictions let alone new ones so i am making a poll  Since I have added a ped-weapons-option in custom deathraces, why not add it to non-custom events too? Some leagues could allow them, and some not.  We could do the same thing with engine/weaps shut-off options....
*Ninesticks* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 6:31 pm	Sam said: Since I have added a ped-weapons-option in custom deathraces, why not add it to non-custom events too? Some leagues could allow them, and some not.  We could do the same thing with engine/weaps shut-off options.... Sounds like a good idea.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 4, 2010, 6:33 pm	Hard core DR rules
*jimmylogan* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 6:41 pm	Ninesticks said: Sam said: Since I have added a ped-weapons-option in custom deathraces, why not add it to non-custom events too? Some leagues could allow them, and some not.  We could do the same thing with engine/weaps shut-off options.... Sounds like a good idea. Agreed - sounds like a GREAT idea! Options - the best of ALL worlds.
Zephyr Posted Jan 4, 2010, 8:14 pm	Longo said: Yea, this is terrible. Id just run em over... I've taken ped gunners to non-league deathraces where no other players were participating, for them to practice their handgun skill, and I can tell you that yes, it can definitely have a strong effect on the outcome of the race.  You can get four peds with rifles in the typical deathrace:  2 people per car, 2 cars per player.  On most tracks, it's not too hard to find places where your peds can hang out and be immune to being shot or run over:  usually on cliffs or bluffs overlooking the track.  From there, and with <20 handgun skill on all of them, I was able to take out over half of the npc cars in a deathrace.  They were all already heavily damaged, of course, but the fact that I was able to force resignation after resignation was pretty startling.  I would imagine that with high skill and the "vehicle killer" spec, you could completely obliterate the competition.  Add heavier ped weapons like tripod MGs and LAWs, and it would be a slaughter. So I support this move.  If I was in a league deathrace and someone started plugging me with 4 riflemen from a place I could not reach, I'd be upset  Of course, I also support the "anything goes" setting for custom events.  But now I gotta find some other way to train up my handgunners.
*goat starer* Posted Jan 4, 2010, 10:52 pm	*sam* said: More people were having their deathraces ruined before the engine/weapons rules. Again, lesser of two evils.. sam ... i just dont believe that... I remember it quite well and it was one or two people who take their racing far to seriously and have a lot of clout not some great mass movement... i do remember a LOT of weeping and gnashing of teeth when this change was made and I am sure I was not the only person to stop deathracing altogether at that point. but hey... i was never that into racing anyway so do what you like
*Lugal* Posted Jan 5, 2010, 12:46 am	goat starer said: *sam* said: More people were having their deathraces ruined before the engine/weapons rules. Again, lesser of two evils.. sam ... i just dont believe that... I remember it quite well and it was one or two people who take their racing far to seriously and have a lot of clout not some great mass movement... i do remember a LOT of weeping and gnashing of teeth when this change was made and I am sure I was not the only person to stop deathracing altogether at that point. Goat... I just don't believe that.  I remember it quite well and there were a lot of us frustrated at how one or two people effectively ruined all high-reward deathraces for the rest of us. I do also remember a lot of reluctant gratitude when this change was made.  We didn't want the limitations but we wanted the griefing even less.  And I'm sure I was not the only one to resume deathracing at that point.
darthspanky Posted Jan 5, 2010, 2:55 am	why not just make it so winners of dr et a nice flower basket, hmm ya do something in this game that makes people unhappy lol everythin changes only if yer new, when a vet feels hes been grieved or game ruined for him by some asshole marshall stealing yer stuff nothing happens then, keep catering to some that get upset but ignore others when they get upset, oh yeah i forgot this is carebear screw the vets darkwind i almost forgot. why not let em take out there peds but then lots of big bugs attack them? or position race track peds aat key spots in bunkers who shoot at anyone getting out of thier cars? or both? hehe when i first came back i did town events some new guy took out his peds was shooting my car i just turned gunned him down till he resigned then went on to finish 2nd, peds in town events can be dealt with
*goat starer* Posted Jan 5, 2010, 10:19 am	*Lugal* said: goat starer said: *sam* said: More people were having their deathraces ruined before the engine/weapons rules. Again, lesser of two evils.. sam ... i just dont believe that... I remember it quite well and it was one or two people who take their racing far to seriously and have a lot of clout not some great mass movement... i do remember a LOT of weeping and gnashing of teeth when this change was made and I am sure I was not the only person to stop deathracing altogether at that point. Goat... I just don't believe that.  I remember it quite well and there were a lot of us frustrated at how one or two people effectively ruined all high-reward deathraces for the rest of us. I do also remember a lot of reluctant gratitude when this change was made.  We didn't want the limitations but we wanted the griefing even less.  And I'm sure I was not the only one to resume deathracing at that point. LOL ace
*sam* Posted Jan 5, 2010, 10:37 am	This is my point.. polarised views. The poll we're holding also backs that up. So what we need is two versions of deathraces, catering to both tastes.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 5, 2010, 10:48 am	Maybe higher rewards for the no holds barred death races ? only off course if more than one member is present.
Nekojin Posted Jan 5, 2010, 3:59 pm	*sam* said: This is my point.. polarised views. The poll we're holding also backs that up. So what we need is two versions of deathraces, catering to both tastes. Call them, "Regulated" and "Unregulated."
*jimmylogan* Posted Jan 5, 2010, 4:10 pm	What about sanctioned and non-sanctioned?
Nekojin Posted Jan 5, 2010, 5:03 pm	*jimmylogan* said: What about sanctioned and non-sanctioned? "Unsanctioned League Deathrace." Hmm...
Scarzam Posted Jan 5, 2010, 5:40 pm	*jimmylogan* said: Ninesticks said: Sam said: Since I have added a ped-weapons-option in custom deathraces, why not add it to non-custom events too? Some leagues could allow them, and some not.  We could do the same thing with engine/weaps shut-off options.... Sounds like a good idea. Agreed - sounds like a GREAT idea! Options - the best of ALL worlds. I'd go for this idea as well. Otherwise you could just make the league deathraces imposed with the rules, especially since most leagues in any sport has their own specific set rules anyway, and make the non-league more "open" or no-holds barred. I've been using deathraces (and sometimes combat) to train in handgunning since ped combat is way too risky (especially for low-skill handgunners) and paint-ball does not count for skill.
*Longo* Posted Jan 5, 2010, 9:12 pm	Nekojin said: *jimmylogan* said: What about sanctioned and non-sanctioned? "Unsanctioned League Deathrace." Hmm...  Carebear Race and Deathrace?
*sam* Posted Jan 5, 2010, 9:34 pm	Longo said: Nekojin said: *jimmylogan* said: What about sanctioned and non-sanctioned? "Unsanctioned League Deathrace." Hmm...  Carebear Race and Deathrace?    Deathrace and combat on a racing circuit?
*goat starer* Posted Jan 5, 2010, 9:59 pm	*sam* said: Longo said: Nekojin said: *jimmylogan* said: What about sanctioned and non-sanctioned? "Unsanctioned League Deathrace." Hmm...  Carebear Race and Deathrace?    Deathrace and combat on a racing circuit?  girls race and boys race?
*Tinker* Posted Jan 5, 2010, 10:00 pm	Marrkos said: Would it not be better to close the loopholes that allow these 'high profile incidents' to occur, rather than removing ped weapons completely? Loophole 1:  Engine shutoff/power decrease does not kick in before starting line/on first lap/before first checkpoint. Loophole 2:  Inability to shoot cars too far ahead does not kick in on first lap. Let's be honest, this isn't about players using their ped weapons 'down on the track' during a race to commandeer a working vehicle, or as a substitute to a destroyed vehicular weapon. This is about Joel using the two loopholes above to drive to a position of high ground/safety and shoot targets of opportunity. I say it's a position of 'safety' because by the time the other human players realize what's happening they have already passed the various checks that will prevent them from getting to a position where they can engage him, i.e. they can't target him because they are too far ahead, or they can't ram him because their engine has been disabled by the 'no driving backwards' rule. i vote for this why complicate things with regulated and non regulated events?
*Lugal* Posted Jan 5, 2010, 10:12 pm	*Tinker* said: why complicate things with regulated and non regulated events? /me points at own post in the Subscribers' thread.
Groovelle Posted Jan 10, 2010, 8:02 am	I recently played a deathrace and couldn't leave my car. Is it a bug or the new rules? I'll have to discontinue doing deathraces as I'm afraid of catching fire and not being able to hop out and avoid an explosion death.
Big Daddy Posted Jan 19, 2010, 3:25 pm	That can happen if you're stunned or unconscious, entirely possible if your car was on fire. But I haven't tried it since the new rules.
Djihani Posted Feb 8, 2010, 3:09 pm	I very very seldom do town events, aint no pzazz innem but why not give everyone a complimentary pistol or shotgun for those panic situations and remove any good guns instead of banning them altogether?
Joel Autobaun Posted Feb 9, 2010, 3:45 am	Djihani said: I very very seldom do town events, aint no pzazz innem but why not give everyone a complimentary pistol or shotgun for those panic situations and remove any good guns instead of banning them altogether? Nice!  Let's have pistols get a use....Sanctioned Deathraces....
Serephe Posted Feb 9, 2010, 4:20 am	I'm in for this + I want to be able to use dual pistols.
Groovelle Posted Feb 9, 2010, 5:32 am	I'm also up for this but I don't want Serephe to be able to use dual pistols. I would want dual pistols for myself though.
simonmaxhill Posted Feb 9, 2010, 5:30 pm	maybe we can simply allow ped gunners in any race with multiple players and disallow them in all-NPC events? And also allow cars to fire on peds before the "grace period" of turns have elapsed? This would allow players (who are brighter than NPCs) to be real threats to ped gunners, and also prevent them from using the "grace period" to get into an unassailable sniper position? or introduce NPC ped mobs of five "race officials" that come out whenever a ped is out of car and hasn't escaped?
Groovelle Posted Feb 10, 2010, 12:50 am	Or we can use the dogs in the other thread to charge anybody outside of their cars. Unleash the hounds!