*sam* Posted Nov 20, 2009, 10:07 am	This thread is for discussing the mechanisms of per-faction reputation. Please use the other thread to propose and discuss what the actual factions will be. As you may know, the concept of 'per-faction repuation' has been on the table for a long time. The details have not yet been fleshed out so I'm looking for discussion... The basics are: There will be a number of factions, certainly one per town but also ones such as 'northern mutant alliance', 'Texan oil barons', 'Firelight pirate conglomorate', etc. Each faction will have a relationship with each other faction: positive, negative or neutral. NPC members of other factions will be positive/negative towards you according to your standing with their faction, its allies and enemies. The impact of how a faction sees you could be quite wide-ranging, and this is where I see the discussion adding a lot of value... e.g. if you have a high rep. with a town you could have zero gates fees there, cheaper food/water etc.; if you're sufficiently negative with a town they might refuse entry altogether. If you're of positive rep. with the Badlands Pirate Group, you will expect to finding trucing easier in the region, etc.
*sam* Posted Nov 20, 2009, 10:09 am	Here's a post from July this year in the private rules council forum (I hope you don't mind me posting it here ninesticks): ninesticks said: Initially I thought of bumping the older thread (on page 3), but I thought perhaps a fresh discussion would be wiser. Apart from the cyclical PvP discussions going on I have seen this mentioned a few times in the forums and wanted to get it on the current agenda with the RC. Currently the fame and reputation system seem somewhat muddied and confused (primarily be each player's interpretation of the terms as much as anything) and could do with an overhaul. I think per faction rep could make for a more enjoyable gaming experience in that it gives the world of Evan more of a feel to it, allows players to get better feedback on the impact of their actions and acts as a potential funnel for some great RP (player generated or even RP interjects). I think it would also aid as a means of allowing players to define their own paths and objectives better (beyond characters, cars and guns) which helps increase the depth of the game and to some degree its longevity. So after that somewhat lengthy preamble (my apologies) here is what I would like to put on the table. This list is not intended to be exhaustive - just my thoughts so far. 1. Each NPC entity (town or gang) has a direct relationship to each player gang. Rather than numbers I would use terms. Neutral, wary, friendly, trusted, sworn enemy etc. A tendency towards a defined start position would be great, though I would think that any degradation would be long term rather than short term. The defined start position would depend on the entity involved. 2. NPC entities would be grouped into sets. Actions would have both a positive and negative cascade effect (as discussed in the other thread). 3. Perhaps fame (again expressed in a term rather than numbers) could act as a multiplier or factor on the cascade effect. 4. Reserve missions from each entity according to the player's standing. So you have to run around on a few low level runs before being trusted with the bigger stuff - unless word of your capabilities precedes you of course. 5. Each entity should have its own standing with other entities. This could help delineate the groupings for the cascade effect as well as allow some movement in the system. 6. Create/Modify existing mission types. The courier, escort and taxi missions (perhaps based on town rep?) are great. Assassination missions could be generated between opposing groups or entities. Bounties could be generated by entities or groups on each other or even players. You could even have pirate entities generate missions (helping out against bounty hunters, other pirates etc). Thanks for taking your time to read this far Looking forward to your comments, additions and deletions.
4saken Posted Nov 20, 2009, 10:11 am	So there will be some faction overlap, then? For instance, we might have Muties and Normies and of course SS would be part of the normies. Do we need so many factions? How many do we think is ideal? I'll have to dig up some of the old posts on this. I wonder if we should have a separate thread for which factions and one for the effect of pos/neg faction rep? Each thread could still get quite large!
*sam* Posted Nov 20, 2009, 10:12 am	Some more stuff dug up from previous discussions: (OMG we have been discussing this stuff for over 2 years I see... I really must get to it this time!) Sam said: If you're very much disliked by a faction that an NPC deathracing/arena gang belongs to, they will prefer to shoot you in deathraces before other targets. Maybe we could allow 'donations' of $ to a particular faction, and this gives you some 'influence points' with the factions Thread here: 'Pirate Playing' Another interesting idea is that if you have a very negative rep. with the NPC that beats you in a wilderness combat, they might kill your characters. Thread here: Per-Faction Rep.
4saken Posted Nov 20, 2009, 10:29 am	*sam* said: Another interesting idea is that if you have a very negative rep. with the NPC that beats you in a wilderness combat, they might kill your characters. This is one of the main things I want factions for. IMO the two biggest reasons for factions are: 1) How a town treats you (prices, gate fees, if they will let you use the town to escape at the gates, if the merchants will even buy from you at all, etc) 2) How NPC gangs treat you (do they shoot you if you demo or surrender, what do they do with any captives, do they hate you so much they actually single your cars out in multiplayer squads, etc)
*sam* Posted Nov 20, 2009, 12:55 pm	Moved to announcements forum to keep it visible!
Fealty Lost Posted Nov 20, 2009, 4:17 pm	This is something the game really needs. For those who choose the pirate life, and who survivors tell of when they wander back into town, things SHOULD be harder to do in that town...trading, etc., in the form of higher [ much ] or lower [ much ] depending on what you're trying to do. When you reach a certain level of hatred, you shouldn't even be allowed in the gates and in fact should be attacked by the militia. Same goes for people with pos' reps trying to wander around in high pirate activity areas. If you hunt pirates, pirates should hunt you, take out bounties, etc., and getting into towns that cater to pirates [ or generally bad guys ] should be harder, if not downright impossible. Are there going to be 'pirate traders?' If towns are going to hate each other, there has to be...this would also give us 'good' guys something to go after! We could disrupt supply lines going to the 'bad' towns and camps...opening up role play on both sides of the coin. .02
*jimmylogan* Posted Nov 20, 2009, 5:43 pm	Damon_Angel said: Are there going to be 'pirate traders?' If towns are going to hate each other, there has to be...this would also give us 'good' guys something to go after! We could disrupt supply lines going to the 'bad' towns and camps...opening up role play on both sides of the coin This was one of the best parts of 'faction rep' to me - you could be a 'good guy' in the eyes of some of the traders while attacking their competition...
*jimmylogan* Posted Nov 20, 2009, 5:44 pm	When scouting from town, would you have the option to - 'hunt pirates' 'hunt traders' 'hunt pirates from XXX faction' etc. Or would we need to know who we're up against and choose based on that?
Flaming savage Posted Nov 20, 2009, 7:07 pm	Not trying to be a annoy you here but, whats a faction?
*jimmylogan* Posted Nov 20, 2009, 7:25 pm	Just another term for 'group of gangs' that have a single cause or thought. In other words... One faction might consist of two pirate gangs that fight all traders EXCEPT a particular trader gang that supplies them. This trader is part of that faction. Attacking them is just like attacking the two pirate gangs, while attacking their competition would be like HELPING that faction (and going against the other faction). Does that help?
simonmaxhill Posted Nov 20, 2009, 8:07 pm	brain dump! I think it'd be really great to have a weekly or monthly, "faction report" that keeps a running tab on the general success/failure rate of factions. Similar to a wilderness league, perhaps even with prizes for participation (sort of monthly bonuses for members). It could be based on a number of things: 1. successful scouts for/against the faction 2. missions achieved for/against the faction 3. grand total of fame amongst player-gangs that are "members" of the faction (see below what I mean by that) The effect of a player-gang's activities for/against a faction would be weighted depending on the gang's level of association with a faction. So a gang that is an "enemy" of a faction would cause full fame damage when defeating an "friend" of the faction in combat (and the reverse). A gang that is a "friend" or "member" of a faction would give the faction some fame when they accomplish faction spawned missions. Gangs in the gray area between "friend" and "enemy" would still add/decrease faction fame, but far less than full members. It may be helpful to refer to this "faction fame" as something different, for the time being. Perhaps, "faction points" would work. I think we could also really use a new kind of mission in the tavern, that being a bulk goods mission. I.e. Ship 500 units of food to Sarsfield by 11-20. I would think being in your own faction town would give you cheaper rates on regular goods, but limited access to rare goods. Being in your "enemies" faction town would double or triple basic equipment costs but give you access to rare weaponry (essentially - your faction is shipping deadly weapons into the area and preferring to sell it to you.)
Flaming savage Posted Nov 20, 2009, 8:41 pm	makes complete sense now jimmy. thnks
*Burden* Posted Nov 20, 2009, 10:54 pm	With this, we would have to be able to choose what gangs we fight then, rather than fighting a random gang, in scouts.
4saken Posted Nov 21, 2009, 3:51 am	Burden said: With this, we would have to be able to choose what gangs we fight then, rather than fighting a random gang, in scouts.  Or at least which faction and pirates/traders of that faction, perhaps? Anyway I think the worst a town should ever treat you is: No safety when escaping into town. Merchants will not sell or buy. You can still buy on the market, but not sell. You can still have a lockup, though it may be much smaller. This will allow you to keep fuel and some ammo. Greatly increased gate fees (basically a bribe), maybe x5? Without this you won't be able to get around. For instance, if GW locked you out you could not get from SS to BL. This could, of course change if direct routes, or routes to camps and then to far away cities, could be found.
*goat starer* Posted Nov 21, 2009, 4:11 am	*jimmylogan* said: Just another term for 'group of gangs' that have a single cause or thought. all aboard the 'kick th ecrap out of FF faction!' woo hoo!!! oh i just realised why i stopped drinking... oops
*Burden* Posted Nov 21, 2009, 11:27 am	4saken said: Without this you won't be able to get around. For instance, if GW locked you out you could not get from SS to BL. This could, of course change if direct routes, or routes to camps and then to far away cities, could be found. Well, some towns would have to be neutral of course :]
*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Nov 21, 2009, 1:33 pm	maybe keep the towns up north neutral?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 21, 2009, 1:40 pm	4saken said: Burden said: With this, we would have to be able to choose what gangs we fight then, rather than fighting a random gang, in scouts.  Or at least which faction and pirates/traders of that faction, perhaps? Anyway I think the worst a town should ever treat you is: No safety when escaping into town. Merchants will not sell or buy. You can still buy on the market, but not sell. You can still have a lockup, though it may be much smaller. This will allow you to keep fuel and some ammo. Greatly increased gate fees (basically a bribe), maybe x5? Without this you won't be able to get around. For instance, if GW locked you out you could not get from SS to BL. This could, of course change if direct routes, or routes to camps and then to far away cities, could be found. We will have to be extremely careful concerning restriction of movement around the towns / truckstops, realistic maybe BUT would it be good for a game where we have trouble persuading people to leave ss already
*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Nov 21, 2009, 2:33 pm	well if more people group scouted more often in other places *cough* Badlands *cough* then maybe more people would go there
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 21, 2009, 4:17 pm	you will find a lot of people once they are established in BL have a certain scouting group of friends they stick with, open BL and gw scouts don't appear in open lobby as much as ss. You need to persuade some of your regular ss scouting partners to move south with you Rez' Restricting movement due to faction loyalty would make this situation even worse imo
*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Nov 21, 2009, 4:21 pm	but grog... *sniffles*.... what if i dont have any friends?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 21, 2009, 4:26 pm	Rezzy baby we all love you ( even after that pic you posted )
*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Nov 21, 2009, 4:31 pm	d'aww shucks, your soo sweeeet!
*goat starer* Posted Nov 21, 2009, 6:09 pm	you can come scouting with me rez.. i am looking for a replacement for grograt
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 21, 2009, 6:45 pm
*Longo* Posted Nov 21, 2009, 7:58 pm	4saken said: Burden said: With this, we would have to be able to choose what gangs we fight then, rather than fighting a random gang, in scouts.  Or at least which faction and pirates/traders of that faction, perhaps? Anyway I think the worst a town should ever treat you is: No safety when escaping into town. Merchants will not sell or buy. You can still buy on the market, but not sell. You can still have a lockup, though it may be much smaller. This will allow you to keep fuel and some ammo. Greatly increased gate fees (basically a bribe), maybe x5? Without this you won't be able to get around. For instance, if GW locked you out you could not get from SS to BL. This could, of course change if direct routes, or routes to camps and then to far away cities, could be found. All of these are punishments for being negative rep. Whats the positives here? Or do you all want us to be good guys like you?
Joel Autobaun Posted Nov 21, 2009, 8:02 pm	Longo said: 4saken said: Burden said: With this, we would have to be able to choose what gangs we fight then, rather than fighting a random gang, in scouts.  Or at least which faction and pirates/traders of that faction, perhaps? Anyway I think the worst a town should ever treat you is: No safety when escaping into town. Merchants will not sell or buy. You can still buy on the market, but not sell. You can still have a lockup, though it may be much smaller. This will allow you to keep fuel and some ammo. Greatly increased gate fees (basically a bribe), maybe x5? Without this you won't be able to get around. For instance, if GW locked you out you could not get from SS to BL. This could, of course change if direct routes, or routes to camps and then to far away cities, could be found. All of these are punishments for being negative rep. Whats the positives here? Or do you all want us to be good guys like you? Umm I have to say pirating is EFFING awesome right now, with all the lasers and MM and HVY Lasers falling off the backs of their trucks.
*Longo* Posted Nov 21, 2009, 8:07 pm	Joel Autobaun said: Longo said: 4saken said: Burden said: With this, we would have to be able to choose what gangs we fight then, rather than fighting a random gang, in scouts.  Or at least which faction and pirates/traders of that faction, perhaps? Anyway I think the worst a town should ever treat you is: No safety when escaping into town. Merchants will not sell or buy. You can still buy on the market, but not sell. You can still have a lockup, though it may be much smaller. This will allow you to keep fuel and some ammo. Greatly increased gate fees (basically a bribe), maybe x5? Without this you won't be able to get around. For instance, if GW locked you out you could not get from SS to BL. This could, of course change if direct routes, or routes to camps and then to far away cities, could be found. All of these are punishments for being negative rep. Whats the positives here? Or do you all want us to be good guys like you? Umm I have to say pirating is EFFING awesome right now, with all the lasers and MM and HVY Lasers falling off the backs of their trucks. 1 Hlaser is all I heard of....... and that was fixed?
Joel Autobaun Posted Nov 21, 2009, 8:13 pm	In ss it was...cut down. I hate to let the cat out of the bag, but seriously hunting traders down south almost always yields major dividends... I only bag em when I get them accidentally at gates. 2 lasers, 3 mounted mortars in 6 encounters(one encounter I ruined their cargo). last month or possibly 2, still I wasnt even actively hunting them.
*Longo* Posted Nov 21, 2009, 8:26 pm	I havent hunted them....when I saw positive rep guys trucing as much as I could with good fame and very low negative rep I decided the pirate life had come to an end.
Joel Autobaun Posted Nov 21, 2009, 8:42 pm	Well that is probably part of what this new faction system will be about...so it might make you able to truce pirates more if you are a pirate.
*Longo* Posted Nov 21, 2009, 9:08 pm	I just dont want there to be only 1 way to play the game...everyone kills pirates but you can do an occasional trader and be ok.
4saken Posted Nov 23, 2009, 2:34 am	Longo said: All of these are punishments for being negative rep. Whats the positives here? Or do you all want us to be good guys like you?  It has nothing to do with that, these are just suggestion for the worst case scenario, and they are offered to still provide a way to travel to the towns in some capacity, as opposed to being restricted. I can see one possible problem with factions, though. What happens if you get too set in your ways? Everyone starts in SS, presumably killing pirates. So what happens when you want to expand? As you travel farther south you end up more in enemy territory. If you truly want to change bases of operations, or for that matter have people spread over the whole map, this becomes very difficult... Hrmm... Law of Unintended Consequences?
Djihani Posted Nov 23, 2009, 3:20 am	well if you can hunt elmsbound traders from gw with no loss at ss, then having a crew in gw would just be natural, and by then we've broken the ss tabu?
Whiskey Posted Nov 23, 2009, 4:36 am	Just a thought. Let's say that you only hunt traders that are based out of Texan and only hunt pirates that are based out of GW. Shouldn't you have a positive rep with traders based out of GW but a negative rep with traders based out of Texan. And flipside, a negative rep with all pirates out of GW but a positive rep with pirates based out of Texan. To everyone else (say pirates out of BL or traders out of Elms) you are neutral.
*sam* Posted Nov 23, 2009, 11:38 am	TKWPrime said: Just a thought. Let's say that you only hunt traders that are based out of Texan and only hunt pirates that are based out of GW. Shouldn't you have a positive rep with traders based out of GW but a negative rep with traders based out of Texan. And flipside, a negative rep with all pirates out of GW but a positive rep with pirates based out of Texan. To everyone else (say pirates out of BL or traders out of Elms) you are neutral. That sounds about how I'd see it panning out, yes.
FireFly Posted Nov 23, 2009, 11:58 am	*sam* said: TKWPrime said: Just a thought. Let's say that you only hunt traders that are based out of Texan and only hunt pirates that are based out of GW. Shouldn't you have a positive rep with traders based out of GW but a negative rep with traders based out of Texan. And flipside, a negative rep with all pirates out of GW but a positive rep with pirates based out of Texan. To everyone else (say pirates out of BL or traders out of Elms) you are neutral. That sounds about how I'd see it panning out, yes. Then again, they are Pirates, bandits and outlaws, they couldn't care less what you hunt, for as long as you don't mess with them, right?
*sam* Posted Nov 23, 2009, 12:35 pm	Notes for implementation: 1. Having high rep with mutant factions will boost the percentage of your gang that can be mutants, having a low rep with them will reduce this percentage 2. Having mutants in your gang will reduce your rep. with factions that hate mutants and increase your rep. with the mutant faction(s)
Whiskey Posted Nov 23, 2009, 1:22 pm	*sam* said: TKWPrime said: Just a thought. Let's say that you only hunt traders that are based out of Texan and only hunt pirates that are based out of GW. Shouldn't you have a positive rep with traders based out of GW but a negative rep with traders based out of Texan. And flipside, a negative rep with all pirates out of GW but a positive rep with pirates based out of Texan. To everyone else (say pirates out of BL or traders out of Elms) you are neutral. That sounds about how I'd see it panning out, yes. What this would really seem to need is a good set of advantages and disadvantages to reps.  And this needs to be balanced.  There should be different but equal sets of ads and disads for having positive or negative rep.  There should be some tangible benefits to being a pirate player.
*sam* Posted Nov 23, 2009, 2:09 pm	Yep. Any ways we can make varied gameplay advantages/disadvantages to being in and out of favour with the various factions would be excellent. Stuff like - getting attacked by the militia close to a town that hates you/ getting zero gates fees if they like you/ getting cheap town mechanic services. If you're in favour with a trader faction maybe you get access to cheap goods even when there's none in the shops; being in favour with the mutants lets you recruit them; in favour with a pirate faction grants you safe travel in the vicinity.
*goat starer* Posted Nov 23, 2009, 10:22 pm	Joel Autobaun said: Well that is probably part of what this new faction system will be about...so it might make you able to truce pirates more if you are a pirate. you really should never be able to truce pirates if you are a pirate.. the idea that tere is some kind of 'honour among thieves' doesnt sit well at all.
*sam* Posted Nov 23, 2009, 10:49 pm	goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: Well that is probably part of what this new faction system will be about...so it might make you able to truce pirates more if you are a pirate. you really should never be able to truce pirates if you are a pirate.. the idea that tere is some kind of 'honour among thieves' doesnt sit well at all. That's not the reasoning behind the current trucing. It's about intimidating and/or respecting each other.
*goat starer* Posted Nov 24, 2009, 12:29 am	*sam* said: goat starer said: Joel Autobaun said: Well that is probably part of what this new faction system will be about...so it might make you able to truce pirates more if you are a pirate. you really should never be able to truce pirates if you are a pirate.. the idea that tere is some kind of 'honour among thieves' doesnt sit well at all. That's not the reasoning behind the current trucing. It's about intimidating and/or respecting each other. off topic but..... .........that has always been my point about fame v rep for trucing... fame helps you truce.. you get it from racing... rep doesnt... you get it by killing pirates... pirates should truce high rep gangs because they are scared of them.
*Longo* Posted Nov 24, 2009, 1:01 am	Ummmmm.....so what do neg rep people get?
Marrkos Posted Nov 24, 2009, 8:18 pm	Also, what does this do to the Hero Point system, if anything?
Groove Champion Posted Nov 25, 2009, 4:43 am	A quick question: Since SS factions seem relatively hostile to mutants, does that mean I have very poor chances of recruiting a mutant in SS?
*Lugal* Posted Nov 25, 2009, 7:52 am	I ne'er t'ought I'd see t'e day faction rep be on t'e front page. It brings a wee tear t' me eye, it do!
*goat starer* Posted Nov 25, 2009, 9:32 am	Longo said: Ummmmm.....so what do neg rep people get? heavy lasers, mortars, rocket pods, piles of EPs, HGGs out of trader loot? what have positive rep players EVER had? and dont say hero points because you can have Hero points AND be negative rep.... which is bizarre.
FireFly Posted Nov 25, 2009, 9:57 am	goat starer said: Longo said: Ummmmm.....so what do neg rep people get? heavy lasers, mortars, rocket pods, piles of EPs, HGGs out of trader loot? what have positive rep players EVER had? and dont say hero points because you can have Hero points AND be negative rep.... which is bizarre. You havent gone after traders in a while have you, out of a total of 20 looted lorries, I've found 1, just 1 cargo of EP's, and the best I found is still flechete or rocket racks, so dont go assume things becuase 1 or 2 lucky people found that while it was still bricked.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 25, 2009, 10:54 am	I really hope this isnt going to tie the hands of the players too much, the open nature of the game is a major draw for most, choosing 'evil elf' or 'happy dwarf' isnt in my opinion a good way for DW to turn
Groove Champion Posted Nov 25, 2009, 11:50 am	I'll have to agree with the Grograt faction on this.
*sam* Posted Nov 25, 2009, 12:28 pm	I don't think that problem will happen... but as ever we can watch what happens and decide if we don't like it..
*goat starer* Posted Nov 25, 2009, 3:00 pm	*Grograt* said: I really hope this isnt going to tie the hands of the players too much, the open nature of the game is a major draw for most, choosing 'evil elf' or 'happy dwarf' isnt in my opinion a good way for DW to turn you are clearly a grumpy ogre
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Nov 25, 2009, 3:30 pm	goat starer said: *Grograt* said: I really hope this isnt going to tie the hands of the players too much, the open nature of the game is a major draw for most, choosing 'evil elf' or 'happy dwarf' isnt in my opinion a good way for DW to turn you are clearly a grumpy ogre Today, i think you may be right
*Ninesticks* Posted Nov 25, 2009, 3:53 pm	FF said: You havent gone after traders in a while have you, out of a total of 20 looted lorries, I've found 1, just 1 cargo of EP's, and the best I found is still flechete or rocket racks, so dont go assume things becuase 1 or 2 lucky people found that while it was still bricked. He may not but I certainly do and this is a valid point. At the best I have looted two Southern Trader lorries in the one fight (with Serephe) both full of EPs. Yesterday in SS in 5 trader hunts I looted two lorries, one of which was full of fuel as well as a car cannon. Sooo have you gone out with three cars in SS hunting pirates and come back with loot cars worth over 1/4 million... ever?
FireFly Posted Nov 25, 2009, 4:27 pm	*Ninesticks* said: FF said: You havent gone after traders in a while have you, out of a total of 20 looted lorries, I've found 1, just 1 cargo of EP's, and the best I found is still flechete or rocket racks, so dont go assume things becuase 1 or 2 lucky people found that while it was still bricked. He may not but I certainly do and this is a valid point. At the best I have looted two Southern Trader lorries in the one fight (with Serephe) both full of EPs. Yesterday in SS in 5 trader hunts I looted two lorries, one of which was full of fuel as well as a car cannon. Sooo have you gone out with three cars in SS hunting pirates and come back with loot cars worth over 1/4 million... ever? You found a car cannon... (Firefly is green with envy, and he does 1500 - 3000cr hunts every day) And you can say that those cars are worth a lot, but that is provided someone will buy them, and well, even at $199999, not currently selling... aaaaand... yes, once I brought home 3 lorries at once, full of fuel... that made me a million I guess, but still only rocket racks in the cargo. (And no, I haven't gone after the SS pirates in Months, outside testing my RGM)
*Longo* Posted Nov 25, 2009, 4:30 pm	goat starer said: Longo said: Ummmmm.....so what do neg rep people get? heavy lasers, mortars, rocket pods, piles of EPs, HGGs out of trader loot? what have positive rep players EVER had? and dont say hero points because you can have Hero points AND be negative rep.... which is bizarre. Goat - Ive been a little out of the loop lately and havent hunted alot of traders. I see there are good treasures for trader hunters, which..if these are not nerfed, is a good advantage for neg rep players. My question was brought up after I only read disadvantages of being neg rep. Id just like to see pros and cons to every way someone wishes to play. As I have previously posted, I also have agreed with you that very high rep players also should have advantages, and in the present game only have the ability to get good missions...
FireFly Posted Nov 25, 2009, 4:43 pm	Well, if someone read that other thread... how about the black market?
Fealty Lost Posted Nov 25, 2009, 5:07 pm	I agree that the 'open' nature of the game needs to be kept...however...the only way to snag many of the really 'rare' things in the game are to be a neg' rep player ganking traders. All the rest of us have to pay for it...if it's for sale. What if our vision of the game is that of a contributing member of a new society building off the remains of a corrupt one? Again, there should be 'bad' places and 'good' places and the traders that support them. They may be NPC's, but even they have a vision of a 'new' world or they wouldn't be doing what they do...now that world might include pillaging and anarchy and you could still be a trader, but not welcome in the more 'civilized' communities. I went on a trader hunt and went neg' rep for the first time since I started playing...and nearly had a heart attack. Am now back to pos' rep and plan on staying that way. You should be able to be good, or bad, or a combo...but there should be as much range to the NPC world as there is to ours.
*goat starer* Posted Nov 25, 2009, 5:37 pm	Longo said: goat starer said: Longo said: Ummmmm.....so what do neg rep people get? heavy lasers, mortars, rocket pods, piles of EPs, HGGs out of trader loot? what have positive rep players EVER had? and dont say hero points because you can have Hero points AND be negative rep.... which is bizarre. Goat - Ive been a little out of the loop lately and havent hunted alot of traders. I see there are good treasures for trader hunters, which..if these are not nerfed, is a good advantage for neg rep players. My question was brought up after I only read disadvantages of being neg rep. Id just like to see pros and cons to every way someone wishes to play. As I have previously posted, I also have agreed with you that very high rep players also should have advantages, and in the present game only have the ability to get good missions... yep longo.. i was not having a go at you.. i think we can well agree that the benefits (and negatives) to being + and - need an overhaul. getting good missions is one of the most useless things in the game.. I get my rep by scouting.. because i like scouting... so giving me the reward of running missions (which i find tedious and tie up my crews) is like giving a pair of shoes as the prize for a paralympics race for people with no feet.
*sam* Posted Dec 10, 2009, 11:31 am	An idea that Firefly has suggested to me: Would it be possible to "Donate" cars to factions (For + rep to faction, you would actually need a decent standing with them to begin with) once they go live, in the sense that the AI could actually use these cars in combat. Seems like a nice idea? Would make for interesting cars turning up sometimes...
darthspanky Posted Dec 10, 2009, 11:54 am	maybe we could use our cell phones and call a faction if we have left over loot for em to pick up if they want? we gain rep with em.
Zephyr Posted Jan 10, 2010, 10:05 pm	4saken said: *sam* said: Another interesting idea is that if you have a very negative rep. with the NPC that beats you in a wilderness combat, they might kill your characters. This is one of the main things I want factions for. IMO the two biggest reasons for factions are: 1) How a town treats you (prices, gate fees, if they will let you use the town to escape at the gates, if the merchants will even buy from you at all, etc) 2) How NPC gangs treat you (do they shoot you if you demo or surrender, what do they do with any captives, do they hate you so much they actually single your cars out in multiplayer squads, etc) Yeah this is awesome. Or, in the parlance of the kids these days, this idea is "full of Win."  I've been suggesting something like this on the forums of other MMOs for years. Glad to see I've finally found a place where other people think like I do.
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 10, 2010, 10:08 pm	*sam* said: An idea that Firefly has suggested to me: Would it be possible to "Donate" cars to factions (For + rep to faction, you would actually need a decent standing with them to begin with) once they go live, in the sense that the AI could actually use these cars in combat. Seems like a nice idea? Would make for interesting cars turning up sometimes... Very nice idea, i can imagine some vets donating un wanted rares just for the hell of seeing somebody else fight for it, be nice if the donated cars kept gang decals
simonmaxhill Posted Jan 11, 2010, 2:53 am	The only issue, of course, is the idea that players might try to game the system by donating ridiculous designs that the AI can't use. Or that they'd think they were donating something useful, but then it'd be worthless... like, say, a car with a front smokescreen and rear HMGs. Looks good in a player's hands, but in the hands of our AI, I doubt it'd get far. Maybe the system would just be that the game would use the chassis with the same name/skin/decal but would retool to an existing chassis config?
Flaming savage Posted Jan 11, 2010, 8:16 am	FireFly said: goat starer said: Longo said: Ummmmm.....so what do neg rep people get? heavy lasers, mortars, rocket pods, piles of EPs, HGGs out of trader loot? what have positive rep players EVER had? and dont say hero points because you can have Hero points AND be negative rep.... which is bizarre. You havent gone after traders in a while have you, out of a total of 20 looted lorries, I've found 1, just 1 cargo of EP's, and the best I found is still flechete or rocket racks, so dont go assume things becuase 1 or 2 lucky people found that while it was still bricked. Best I've found was a Heavy Rocket Rack.I've found about 12 Light rocket racks and 2 med. rocket racks. I've also found 2 Flechettes,fuel,water and food,but thats it.
*Burden* Posted Jan 11, 2010, 9:42 am	I found a heavy laser.
FireFly Posted Jan 11, 2010, 9:50 am	Yeah, but the system was completely broken back then, you lucky little bug exploiter
Arganosh Posted Jan 11, 2010, 4:41 pm	Just wondering how the "Pirates" get there stuff delivered? Some folks have gotten rich from hitting the "Traders" that service the northern towns. I am wondering if there will ever be "Pirate Convoys" for us to attack? Granted they probably would not have all the really nice stuff the regular traders do (or maybe they will) but it would still be worth while for those of us with positive rep to try and attack.
FireFly Posted Jan 11, 2010, 5:17 pm	You know, Jake deals with anyone... I think he is happy to find anyone to buy all of his symphs
*jimmylogan* Posted Jan 11, 2010, 5:27 pm	Arganosh said: Just wondering how the "Pirates" get there stuff delivered? Some folks have gotten rich from hitting the "Traders" that service the northern towns. I am wondering if there will ever be "Pirate Convoys" for us to attack? I think so, yes - when Factions get fully implemented you may find a trader gang is part of a faction with pirates. Hitting THOSE traders will be the same reputation wise as hitting any of THOSE pirates.
simonmaxhill Posted Jan 11, 2010, 5:45 pm	I'm hoping to one day be counted as a "pirate trader" of some sort. I'll be running "escorts" of looted cars from SS down to FL. All this talk of factions is hella exciting.
*Lugal* Posted Jan 11, 2010, 8:41 pm	*jimmylogan* said: I think so, yes - when Factions get fully implemented you may find a trader gang is part of a faction with pirates. Hitting THOSE traders will be the same reputation wise as hitting any of THOSE pirates. That's my understanding as well. This means two things - 1) "pirates" as we know them will be the combat patrols of a faction, and "traders" will be the cargo shipments.  Thus a) players can experience attacking both without taking a hit to their "alignment" analog, and b) the Faction system replaces the imposed morality judgement behind who you attack. 2) We finally get relief from complaints about the "pirate v non-pirate" player balancing.  Not as bad as the "horde v alliance" debates, but still....
Nekojin Posted Jan 11, 2010, 10:32 pm	*Lugal* said: Not as bad as the "horde v alliance" debates, but still.... FOR THE HORDE!
Marrkos Posted Jan 11, 2010, 10:38 pm	kek
Zoltan Posted Jan 12, 2010, 12:13 am	I"m just going to kill everyone, what will that make me?
*jimmylogan* Posted Jan 12, 2010, 12:14 am	Zoltan said: I"m just going to kill everyone, what will that make me? Lonely?
Bruv Posted Jan 14, 2010, 11:11 am	Lugal has a point about the naming issue. It would be great to have Trader/Norm/Northern faction scouts, trade runs etc. which gain you inflence with the TNN and Pirate/Mutie/Southern faction scouts, trade runs, etc. that gain you influence with the PMS. That way you can take part in all the different aspects of the game without feeling like your being a goodie or a baddie. I can forsee a problem though. Currently the northern mutant alliance (and many others) get a kicking on a daily basis, making them a poor choice for allies. Similarly who would be a PMS trader near SS? or a TNN trader near TX? There needs to be some weighting in favour of the weaker faction, at least to begin with, to get the players to distribute themselves more evenly between factions. Also if you attack a "trader" convoy in the north you're a priate. If you attack a "pirate" convoy in the south what are you? (maybe privateer?).
FireFly Posted Jan 14, 2010, 11:14 am	So... If I hunt traders in SS and Texan... Bandits in Firelight, Shanty, and Texan... Darn, I guess I wont liked by anyone, maybe the reds or mutants will support my mindless slaughtering of poor npc's...?
*sam* Posted Jan 19, 2010, 1:24 pm	I have just amalgamated all the info. from this and other threads. Phew! Looks manageable though...
*Longo* Posted Jan 19, 2010, 1:27 pm	*sam* said: I have just amalgamated all the info. from this and other threads. Phew! Looks manageable though... Simple is good Sam....can always make it more advanced later on
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Jan 19, 2010, 3:02 pm	Hope you remembered the ' Metal' Faction , Long haired reprobates with the soul intention of deafening there enemy ' Apocolypse Now ' stlyee
*sam* Posted Jan 20, 2010, 9:25 am	We're going to have fame per-town as well. This is something that will be good generally, plus it ties in with how I'm going to get per-town reputations going as a function of how the town's strongest faction views you.
*sam* Posted Jan 20, 2010, 1:48 pm	Just noting some items here that will be significant, as I work on them: 1. Trucing NPCs will operate differently. As always, traders of any faction will be happy to truce. However, now your chance of trucing pirate gangs will depend on you being in positive reputation with their faction
St Germain Posted Feb 13, 2010, 6:23 pm	Ok, I'm very clear on how to piss people off and get them to have negative feelings to me But how do I engender more tender feelings from cities and factions? I'm also not clear on the whole 'Global Rep'. Did all the players just begin at the same level more or less? And what happened to bounties?
*Rezeak* reecestensel@hotmail.co.uk Posted Feb 13, 2010, 6:29 pm	Another question on global rep: Will we need rep in every town for this, considering that it's "global"? or can we get high glabal rep from just scouting in one town?
*Tinker* Posted Feb 14, 2010, 8:19 pm	*sam* said: 1. Trucing NPCs will operate differently. As always, traders of any faction will be happy to truce. However, now your chance of trucing pirate gangs will depend on you being in positive reputation with their faction Seems that the Anarchist faction is a little too big, just because you traumatize one pirate gang it means that it will be harder to truce all the others? wish it could be a bit subtle like per gangs repercussions to your scouting style (killing off their gangers etc)
FireFly Posted Feb 14, 2010, 8:22 pm	*Tinker* said: *sam* said: 1. Trucing NPCs will operate differently. As always, traders of any faction will be happy to truce. However, now your chance of trucing pirate gangs will depend on you being in positive reputation with their faction Seems that the Anarchist faction is a little too big, just because you traumatize one pirate gang it means that it will be harder to truce all the others? wish it could be a bit subtle like per gangs repercussions to your scouting style (killing off their gangers etc) Well, the anarchists detest me, yet my 130 scout truced my only travel today...
*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Feb 26, 2010, 3:25 am	I guess I should ask this here since it is about the new faction system and recruiting. As noted in the "Recruiting" thread in Darkwind Discussion, prior to the change I had second highest fame in Evan and had no recruits lie to me for a while. Just hired two today and they both lied. Only hired the second because of the first being a liar. Did we lose any and all fame we had built up and/or is the faction system going to have any impact on hiring liars like the old numerical system did...allegedly? Personally I think it is time to come up with a system to do away with liars. It doesn’t make game play sense other then, this is how it has always been so this is how it needs to stay.
*sam* Posted Feb 26, 2010, 8:40 am	*Tinker* said: *sam* said: 1. Trucing NPCs will operate differently. As always, traders of any faction will be happy to truce. However, now your chance of trucing pirate gangs will depend on you being in positive reputation with their faction Seems that the Anarchist faction is a little too big, just because you traumatize one pirate gang it means that it will be harder to truce all the others? wish it could be a bit subtle like per gangs repercussions to your scouting style (killing off their gangers etc) We could create an alternative 'generic bad guy' faction and move half of the current anarchist gangs into it?
*sam* Posted Feb 26, 2010, 8:41 am	St Germain said: Ok, I'm very clear on how to piss people off and get them to have negative feelings to me   But how do I engender more tender feelings from cities and factions?  I'm also not clear on the whole 'Global Rep'.  Did all the players just begin at the same level more or less?  And what happened to bounties? Bounties are now per-town. So you can be hated and have a bounty on you in one place yet unknown/unhated elsewhere.
Serephe Posted Feb 26, 2010, 8:42 am	We could just expand the reds to fill that slot. Just kidding goat.
*sam* Posted Feb 26, 2010, 8:42 am	*Rezeak* said: Another question on global rep: Will we need rep in every town for this, considering that it's "global"? or can we get high glabal rep from just scouting in one town? There is no global rep.. it's global fame. it's an average of your fame in each of the towns, so you'll find it hard getting globally famous without having a presence in multiple towns.
*sam* Posted Feb 26, 2010, 8:43 am	Marc5iver said: Personally I think it is time to come up with a system to do away with liars. It doesn’t make game play sense other then, this is how it has always been so this is how it needs to stay. I'd have no problem doing this. Maybe the current 'liar' could simply be someone with 15-ish in their primary skill rather than 20-ish..; but this primary skill is guaranteed to be as requested?
*Grograt* gary.r.horder@gmail.com Posted Feb 26, 2010, 11:04 am	I cant see any reason not to remove the lie aspect, even when i have recruited a liar, i just train them up in whatever sector i needed anyway, so only effected the time it takes to get to the basic 20 in that skill. New angry factor would be cool, the Anarchists do seem to have far too many gangs, what about 'Rebel Punks' factor containing all the misfit dregs of society who have no real major faction goal other than too cause as much disruption as possible, have a good killing spree, and party with their ill got gains
St Germain Posted Feb 26, 2010, 11:05 am	*sam* said: Marc5iver said: Personally I think it is time to come up with a system to do away with liars. It doesn’t make game play sense other then, this is how it has always been so this is how it needs to stay. I'd have no problem doing this. Maybe the current 'liar' could simply be someone with 15-ish in their primary skill rather than 20-ish..; but this primary skill is guaranteed to be as requested? That sounds much more fair.
St Germain Posted Feb 26, 2010, 11:10 am	What seems to be happening with scouting specific factions is that in a high activity town like SS there are only the 'Good Guys' to hunt, who happen to be the allies of SS.... But there was only one 'Anarchist Trader' that I imagine everyone jumped on and scouted into near extinction. Sam, could you create some sort of contrivance in-game that would justify regular trader runs by either/or anarchists and traders? Maybe even because it's a 'high threat' area for them, one or two high fame anarchist gangs may try a hand. I know you said this was the time for feedback and tweaking, but I wasn't sure where you wanted this stuff posted.
*sam* Posted Feb 26, 2010, 12:57 pm	St Germain said: *sam* said: Marc5iver said: Personally I think it is time to come up with a system to do away with liars. It doesn’t make game play sense other then, this is how it has always been so this is how it needs to stay. I'd have no problem doing this. Maybe the current 'liar' could simply be someone with 15-ish in their primary skill rather than 20-ish..; but this primary skill is guaranteed to be as requested? That sounds much more fair.  OK, I have done this. But you have to promise to read this: The Dirty Liars Club
betterlucky Posted Feb 26, 2010, 1:47 pm	I had thought that the generic search for pirate/trader might  occasionally throw in a high rep gang from another location but it's only given me listed gangs for SS so far. Maybe depending on your scout level and the faction you prefer to hit, it could throw in the odd wanderer? St Germain said: What seems to be happening with scouting specific factions is that in a high activity town like SS there are only the 'Good Guys' to hunt, who happen to be the allies of SS....  But there was only one 'Anarchist Trader' that I imagine everyone jumped on and scouted into near extinction. Sam, could you create some sort of contrivance in-game that would justify regular trader runs by either/or anarchists and traders?  Maybe even because it's a 'high threat' area for them, one or two high fame anarchist gangs may try a hand. I know you said this was the time for feedback and tweaking, but I wasn't sure where you wanted this stuff posted.
*Dark Tempest* Posted Feb 26, 2010, 2:59 pm	The fact that characters lie has never really been an issue for me. Its part of the game. The reason this has come up as an issue (or at least what started it) is an older vet who missed The Great Change to Factions and lost all of his accumulated fame. Anyone who takes the same time to build fame in the new system as they did in the old system will find that gangers go back to being the truthful blokes we all know and love. The lack of any higher fame gangs "bad guy" gangs around SS, while a major pain for my newb gang trying to make friends with the locals, makes sense in terms of the gang. Why would a town with a strong milita, and extremely strong vigilante presence (not to mention the newb area of the game) ever have a selection of powerful pirate gangs. It makes sense for FLMH or Butane to roll through town occasionally enough to give SS players a sense of the stronger foes out there, but for most of the time SS being relativly safe makes sense. If nothing else its nothing encouragement to go somewhere else. If all the player scouting in SS got rid of the pirates and strengthened the civs and merchants, it makes sense to go clean out other towns. Likely while the player base in SS dropped the pirates activity would pick up again, main SS once again a favorable scouting destination. This type of boom and bust game mechanics is what gives Darkwind its polish and flavor, the fact that player actions have such a noticeable effect on the game
*Marc5iver* marcg@comcast.net Posted Feb 26, 2010, 5:43 pm	From my "Recruiting" post in "Darkwind Discussion" thread: I would love to see the lying recruits go away. With all the time and money we invest in them, wouldn’t you give them a test or something before taking them on? If I am looking for a LG Gunner and your best skill is Driving with a Lg Gun skill of “1” wouldn’t a test show me that you are not who I want? What if there was a one day waiting period to get a ganger who would not be a liar? The RP for this would be the time it takes to set up testing for potential new gangers. We could have the choice to hire someone immediately and take the chance or wait a day, and maybe have to shell out a little cash, to get someone who has the main skill we are looking for. I know anyone can be trained in anything and that the highest skill they have when they are recruited might not be their fastest training skill but IMO the lying bastard recruits just don’t make sense RP wise. Just because it has always been this way doesn’t mean it is the best way, i.e. Tribal Knowledge.
St Germain Posted Feb 26, 2010, 5:51 pm	betterlucky said: I had thought that the generic search for pirate/trader might  occasionally throw in a high rep gang from another location but it's only given me listed gangs for SS so far. Maybe depending on your scout level and the faction you prefer to hit, it could throw in the odd wanderer? I'm sorry, I should have been more specific, I was speaking about scouting against specific high fame gangs.  When the switch was made, from SS there was one Anarchist Trader gang, among the several Civ/ Merchant ones.  Now there are nothing but the several Civ/Merchant specific high fame gangs and no longer even the one high rep/fame Anarchist Trader gang. Does this make more sense? When going after weak pirates of a specific faction, that's works spot on. St Germain said: What seems to be happening with scouting specific factions is that in a high activity town like SS there are only the 'Good Guys' to hunt, who happen to be the allies of SS....  But there was only one 'Anarchist Trader' that I imagine everyone jumped on and scouted into near extinction. Sam, could you create some sort of contrivance in-game that would justify regular trader runs by either/or anarchists and traders?  Maybe even because it's a 'high threat' area for them, one or two high fame anarchist gangs may try a hand. I know you said this was the time for feedback and tweaking, but I wasn't sure where you wanted this stuff posted.
*Bastille* Posted Feb 26, 2010, 11:10 pm	I get lots of liars... my own fault really, I have no decent recruiter. Dan just goes into the Pub and nabs someone by the scruff of his neck and yanks 'em into an Apache, then its Chester's job to work em hard. Every now and then we find one of the original Bastille members that were hiding in the sewers all those years ago. We feed them well and take care of our friends, only to see them die in a horrible accident. I fear if there were no more Liars, my gang would cease to exist.